Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Stream Quality - Comcast
Problem:
This year started off good with the kickoff hosted by Comcast; This raised my hopes that Comcast would continue to host streams, but this didn't hold true. I noticed that at Championship FLL and FTC streams were hosted on Livestream, which is the right way to do it. All FRC streams were on a NASA page that had terrible quality and some streaming issues. When services like Livestream allow for easy high quality video sharing, I see no reason for videos to be streaming any other way.
Secondly, some of the camera work was not ideal. Certain fields used a three camera layout that when viewed at low quality, it was impossible to see anything.
Stream quality also varies greatly from Regional to Regional. Some have excellent streams, whereas other don't have one.

Solution:
With the help of Comcast, FIRST should create guidelines and utilities for regionals and the championship on how to stream video and how to properly film a match. Such resources would let every regional have a good quality stream with good camera work.

Content Availability - Google/YouTube
Problem:
Most regionals and the championship don't provide a recorded copy of each match. Events that do have video are usually from teams with a camcorder sitting in the stands. These videos then don't always make their way onto TBA to be found easily. No one has the time to watch every event live or to dig through the internet to find the video of a match.
Secondly, not just matches should be recorded. Teams that can't go to Championship should be able to experience as much of the event as possible.

Story:
Last year my team got the Chairman's award at the Arkansas Regional and the MC read an awesome speech about our team. It made us all really happy and justified all the work we had put in. Something like this shouldn't just disappear. A video of this moment should still be available.

Solution:
FIRST should work with their sponsors like YouTube to provide utilities for splitting and uploading match videos. TBA provides a good way to see match videos, but it would be better if FIRST could host all of the videos on their channel to make videos easier to find.

More Content - Community
Problem:
The championship isn't just about the robotics matches. There is multiple other events that also happen: Dean's list presentation, Invention Faire, and pits. It would be awesome if video tours were provided for things like the Fair and pits to bring even more the experience to everyone.

Solution:
We can't expect FIRST to do everything, but there is thousands of students walking around that know how to use a camera. FIRST should provide a place for the community to share such videos in a unified place.

Reasoning
I know that these ideas may seem like a lot of work for FIRST, but it would serve the very important purpose of helping spread FIRST. Only a small percentage of teams go to Champs, but every team should be able to experience what it is like.

Final thoughts
My thoughts do not the represent the opinion of my team. I hope that this thread will bring FIRST's attention to problems with current video quality and content, and that it will provide a platform for people to share their ideas on how to make it better.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Twitch > Youtube >>> Livestream

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

I'm working for Twitch starting in May and it's my goal to at least get a conversation going about a potential partnership for the future. No promises but we'll see what happens.

The livestream has been incredibly disappointing this year. Incredibly low resolution, poor bitrate, can't sustain a stream for more than a few minutes.

The on-field production is also severely lacking. Over-field views poorly thought out. Camera switching not useful to at-home viewers.

I could go on, but this needs to change.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Everything > Twitch at peak hours

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

I recorded a wack ton of the livestream, I have to edit, render and upload a fair bit still, but I have ALL Einstein a fair number of quals and playoffs on Galileo, finals on Hopper and a few others.

Shameless self promotion: Videos will be uploaded soon on the channel: Skyehawk
(Videos will of course NOT be monetized by me)
(I've had relatively good luck with my uploads not getting flagged, hopefully that holds for the 50ish matches I have)

Link to channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKq...uW0-xP5BgAraYw

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

FIRST started using Livestream this year in a beta program. There is work being done behind the scenes to improve webcasts.

These are good points you brought up. I'm not entirely pleased with the low audio level of the CMP webcast either, but it is progressing in a good direction.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Twitch can be terrible sometimes too, but they're much more likely to provide something better than what we have currently.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

I cant seem to find your channel. Could you give me a link? Thanks!

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

The only Livestream feeds I saw this year were run unofficially by various teams at different events, and the Championship feeds were certainly not Livestream.

Do you have a source for this "behind the scenes" work?

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

It was brought up at the FTA training in January. I'll see if I can dig anything up since details were mainly (don't take this verbatim) "we're doing this to try it out with hopes that we can standardize webcasting".

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Thanks, would be good to know more about this and learn how some of us in the community might be able to leverage our connections and be a part of the solution.

This year, I did not personally see anything that led me to believe that any standardization of webcasts was occurring.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

It was only a few events to see how well it worked, not a roll-out beta for all events to try out.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Here is a link, I am working on getting videos up ASAP.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKq...uW0-xP5BgAraYw

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

As someone experienced with streaming FRC events with YouTube and Twitch, there are a few important problems with both services...

YouTube - Audio Copyright Flagging. Basically any FRC event streamed to YouTube has to have the audio completely muted. We attempted using it to stream a District last year and had our videos flagged every few minutes even though the feed only picked up audio from the announcers mic (it picked up the music from ambient sound and even though you could barely hear it, YouTube picked it up).

Twitch - Non-Gaming Content Flagging. On twitch, viewers can flag a stream as "non-gaming content", after enough flags, the account is banned for 24 hours automatically with no recourse for the streamer (at least not in a timely enough manner to be useful).

This season we ended up using www.hitbox.tv to stream the last part of our district, it's basically a twitch clone with fewer restrictions, the only downside being the stream has to be refreshed every 4 hours or so (length limits).

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

This is why an official arrangement would help - for example, Major League Hacking, the organization that runs 100+ collegiate hackathons around the world every year, has an official deal to stream closing ceremonies and other content with Twtich, and they've been featured on the homepage numerous times.

If FIRST is already engaging in an official capacity with Livestream, that's a good step, but I saw no evidence of it at Championship this year. Twitch would be well poised to handle this kind of traffic and they've already shown an interest in promoting STEM events like Hackathons.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...oteStacker1683

Seems legit :)

This game is actually extremely fun.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Both Florida events were webcasted on YT with no problems playing the music. And I know quite a few Regionals were streamed on Twitch and never got flagged. If I remember correctly, FIRST was the game it was listed under too; so Twitch already recognizes it as "gaming content".

Plus, FRC Top 25 and FRC GameSense both run on Twitch w/o a problem.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

NE FIRST broadcasted all their events on Twitch.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

There is clearly a need for better video, but you really need to understand how much work it takes to run a complex video system at any competition.

Volunteers are the reason PNW media is so great. We own the show because we have kids that are interested in the game and are innovative in how they want to present the game. Our most basic setup can survive with 3 people minimum. We are at our best with 15 people running the entire livestream, posting to social media, and making a highlight reel (my baby :) ). The students/adults need to be trained every event we go to, but we survive by having a few dedicated volunteers at every event to keep our quality standards.


From what I learned this weekend, PNW is still by far the most volunteer driven, but other areas like MAR and IN seem to be catching up. Next year I hope to see the bar raised even more for community A/V teams by all areas (if we all still stick with FIRST after this boring year /s). NE contacts our there A/V (or something like that. I didn't get the whole story.) Video quality is good, but audio was really bad at times, so an easy fix next year. FIRST needs to realize how hard it becomes for teams to get the community excited about their competition season when there aren't any good video sources for people to watch. 1678 has provided great full field views in the past, but they really can't compete with district events that being much higher quality productions.

Indiana should have an interesting jump in quality when I come over there with my knowledge from working on the PNW A/V crew so many times as one of the serial volunteers (check the sig).

I'm sorry if this makes no sense. I'm super dead from champs.

Something something my own opinions.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Re: Twitch "non-gaming" problems, as a Magic: the Gathering player (which is one of the ~15-20 consistently highest watched games at least on weekends), I think you could argue that FRC is as much a game as cardboard Magic, even without a specific exemption.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Again, its not an issue of if Twitch recognizes it, it's the Twitch users. In the case of our stream, we picked up several viewers that were not familiar with FIRST and flagged the stream enough times to get it taken down. It's luck basically, you have to hope people outside the FIRST community don't come across the stream.

In the case of YouTube, the last time we attempted to stream to it was over a year ago so it's possible that things have changed. I also recall there was a way to suppress copyright flags, but you had to be watching it constantly because if you didn't click the pop-up fast enough it would pull down the stream. Between that and the configuration hassles with YT streams we opted to just use Twitch until that too started causing issues.


I will say though, streaming events would be a whole lot easier for event organizers if FIRST would make some arrangement with a decent streaming service and share the details with everyone. Our event planning team attempted on several occasions to get input from FIRST on issues like copyrighted material and broadcasting standards and were met repeatedly with "you're on your own".

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

If Twitch recognizes it as a game, then you need something like double the amount of flags to get taken down. So, either you were flag spammed by a few people(which Twitch should recognize and just ignore) or you didnt list the stream under the right tag.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

I love twitch. I watch content there all the time, and occasionally stream there. That being said, I want FIRST on YouTube.

Twitch is awesome, but it services a niche community. While there's obviously a fair deal of crossover between FRC and that community, and all of FRC could perhaps become a niche that Twitch services, it's not the general public. YouTube is the general public. Everyone is familiar with YouTube. Smartphones all come with YouTube apps. Less school and workplace filters block YouTube than Twitch (though we'll never find any streaming site that's is never blocked). Grandma knows how to use YouTube.

This is why MAR broadcasts on YouTube, and I agree with the decision they reached.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

As with the above, I think YouTube would be great for FIRST with a potential to engage way more users than Twitch. Twitch is nice, you can chat in real time.

YouTube would be great for FIRST

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Does MAR still stream audio? Cause that was why PNW ditched the idea of using YouTube.

MAR streams good quality video, but if they allow audio to be lost for the purpose of using a more "accessible" service then they are moving in the wrong direction. Audio is key to helping viewers understand the game, otherwise you alienate a large part of your audience. Grandma won't understand the game when people are just stacking some totes or shooting some balls without the commentary of the GA explaining those essential parts of the game.

Also most schools would probably block YouTube. At least most schools in my area do.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

MAR streams the audio from the Game Announcer, Emcee, and game sounds. The only thing that is bypassed is music from the DJ because of copyright restrictions on YouTube. The microphones are mixed together first and brought into the streaming computer, then an aux output from that mixer goes to the DJ to be mixed with the music and be played over the venue speakers

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

The only issue with Twitch is the ~15 second delay. It was better when it was <3 seconds.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

If FIRST changes nothing else for 2016, it should be this.
Heck, if the 2017 Chumpionships had awesome quality streams and archives, I might even forgive them for destroying the bedrock of my favorite competitive activity.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

They also need to make sure that they help event planners to ensure that they have good quality, high-bandwidth internet access in order to provide good streams. I know that at NYC the stream had a ton of problems because the venue charged an outrageous amount of money for good internet, so the team that volunteered to stream the event basically ran the whole thing on dial-up. Somehow we need to provide better internet services to facilitate good streaming too.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

As Dan said above, MAR streams out emcee, game announcer, game sounds and any additional microphones used. The setup has changed since Dan saw it last, but all of our audio goes in to our DJ's audio mixer and then we get one feed from them without any copyrighted music.

Sean definitely nailed the reasons for YouTube... Being able to explain to grandparents over the phone how to watch the event their grandchild is participating is huge. Good luck explaining twitch or livestream or any other streaming service to someone less technically inclined over the phone. Everyone knows how to use YouTube.

There is much more that can be posted on the complexities of webcasting events, but the first and primary for championships is bandwidth. To run 8 streams simultaneously at 720p, you are looking at 16Mbps minimum upload and that is without any overhead and minimum quality settings. Ideally you'd be looking at around 40Mbps upload to comfortably stream 8 720p streams at high quality, which may not even be available from the venue. Assuming that NASA is running the streams through a satellite uplink, I highly doubt that their uplink is capable of sustaining 40Mbps. This doesn't even touch on the reliability required for it and ignores other internet requirements at the venue for the event.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. From a usability perspective, if all you are doing is clicking a link that brings up the live stream, there is absolutely no difference in any of the major streaming services.

• Email link to person, post it on Twitter/FB/Website, read it to them over the phone
• Person visits link, sees video, watches

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Solid LTE should be able to exceed these qualifications comfortably. There are even professional HD casting solutions that load balance between multiple LTE modems to obtain the highest QoS. You could rig something up similar with a consumer router running DD-WRT.

I guarantee that there are people in this very thread that could have run the Championship streams far better than NASA did with consumer grade hardware. That's what's disappointing.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Thank you so much for this!

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Unfortunately, taking the audio from the announcer and emcee isn't very plausible for regional events. As we ran into this problem at the Utah regional, they said that they were not able to connect the announcer and emcee. In they end they got a student announcing the game, for those watching on the stream.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Also, some Regionals did not have webcast at all

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

While yes that is simple, but what if said person isn't on a computer? Are they on a tablet or smart TV? If so, they probably have a YouTube app either preinstalled or installed already. Twitch/Live stream? Probably not. Yes twitch is a legitimate platform but it does not have the brand recognition/familiarity for some outside the FRC community to make them comfortable. This doesn't even touch the technical offerings YouTube has that Twitch/others do not.

Yes I am aware of such solutions using LTE and they may be feasible to use. I can tell you from experience though that you can't just hook the stuff up and expect it to work. I would want to test my connection at each venue and have solid data trying to use such a system with 40k+ people with cell phones at the venue using the limited wireless bandwidth before I would ever propose such a solution to FIRST.

Consumer grade hardware is just asking for trouble in my opinion. I'm not saying the equipment needs to be the most expensive professional solution available but consumer equipment has a tendency to choke at the worst times in mission critical applications.

This is one of the advantages and reasons why you see districts leading the way on the live webcast front. We can control and specify much more at our events. MAR for example contracts the same DJ company for all of our events. They have a audio mixer that they use that exactly meets our need for local in venue production and for the webcast. We bring in our video case, make three audio connections, and we are setup on the audio front.

FIRST could probably do more on this front to make sure that guidelines for event audio specify isolated audio, etc. but I don't know what they currently say.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

These services work fine in modern mobile browsers. Installing an app isn't required for basic viewing functionality.

What are the "technical offerings" you're talking about?

You're definitely right, and this is why something like load balancing between different providers can be used to mitigate this somewhat.

Obviously a solid connection from the venue is going to be far and away the best option. Without knowing what is available at the Dome, I can only speculate why the stream quality was so poor.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Primarily in comparison to twitch, YouTube has much better DVR/live event recording capabilities. This may have changed in the last 6 months since I last looked.

While not necessarily technically necessary and I may reevaluate using it for MAR streams next year, YouTube is much friendlier to 1080p60fps streams. We don't have "partner" status that we have to achieve or pay to get access to all of YouTube's features.

Other than copyright issues, which we made it through 7 events this year without any streams being taken down, I have yet to ever hear a compelling argument to NOT use YouTube.

Anyway, I digress. We are moving away from the original topic and I'm still on mobile traveling. I'm probably going to put out some details on the MAR equipment and methodology here in the coming months. Look for that then or send me a message for additional questions.

Re: Petition for Better Championship Video
 

Maybe it's time for FIRST to hit up an existing national sponsor (AT&T, Comcast, Time Warner, Verizon) that's in the bandwidth industry to provide some "in-kind" donation of high bandwidth access to at least the Championships? To these folks 40Mb/s is peanuts, and the national exposure would certainly generate enough goodwill from the FIRST community to offset the expenses.