Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

It's not what I think, it's what's constantly coming from the mouths of the Founding Fathers of FIRST.
Which is why I quoted the source in the way I did.
In lots and lots of interviews Dean has done, he focuses on the experience of students who are socioeconomically disadvantaged, and the effects that CMP has on them. I can find them and link them, but I'm confident you've seen the same articles/videos.

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

Different students are inspired in different ways. The Championship experience has been a way to inspire certain students for a while now. There are some high profile mentors who were inspired by trips to Championship that they did not qualify for. While I agree that we may need to continue to adjust to find the proper balance, I don't think completely cutting off teams from attending if they don't qualify is the way to go.

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

How would you define the "championship experience"? I've heard a lot of people talking about it and how good it is, but I'd love to hear a concrete definition. So far, all I know is that it isn't any of the following:
- Meeting teams from around the country and world
- Playing with only the most competitive robots
- Competing in a stadium in front of thousands of cheering people
I know it isn't any of these things because FIRST is taking these away. I'm very curious as to what their intended experience actually consists of (and why it can't happen at the district cmp level, but that's a discussion for another time).

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

:rolleyes:
You only play with 1/8 of the "most competitive robots" as it is, with divisions.
You can still meet plenty of teams from around the country and world in a split championship.
We have yet to see exactly which portions of the competition will take place in the stadiums. There's still potential for something similar to the Einstein field at EPCOT back in the day (a rotation of which division is playing on the big stage at any given moment).

I don't like this dual championship, but the hyperbole has to stop. FIRST didn't "take away" these aspects of Championship.

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

Competing with the other FIRST programs: JrFLL, FLL, & FTC.

Although to be completely honest I'm not sure how much of FRC has the time to wander over to those programs especially with them splitting into other venues.

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

I will certainly meet plenty of teams from around part of the country and part of the world. But "world championships" and "half of the world that is geographically closest to Detroit championships" is a big enough difference to warrant noting.

The announcement very clearly states that all competitions will take place in the convention centers, with the domes for ceremonies.

My original question still stands: what exactly is the championship experience that FIRST is trying to share with more and more teams?


"For the Houston Championship, Opening Ceremonies will be held in the Toyota Center, home of the Houston Rockets. Competition matches for all programs will be held in the George R. Brown Convention Center, followed by Closing Ceremonies in Minute Maid Park, home of the Houston Astros, which has a retractable roof.

For the Detroit Championship, Opening and Closing Ceremonies will be held in Ford Field, an enclosed domed stadium, which is home to the Detroit Lions. Competition matches for all programs will be held in Cobo Center."

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

See the town hall meeting where they explicitly stated they're considering the opportunity for allowing some crossover between events.

Define opening and closing ceremonies. Some years that has included Einstein. Others it hasn't. A video announcement announcing the change is not going be the final say on the matter, and FIRST solicited feedback on this in their survey. There's still potentially for flexibility here.

To put it simply, an event with a much grander scale than any others the participants will get to attend. More teams, more competitive teams, more programs, more sponsors, more suppliers, more production value, etc

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

#1 Seeing a new variety of different designs and being able to talk about what went into them in person while seeing them in person. Even if they don't work there the nuances and tricks that went into implementing them the story behind the creation etc.

#2 Hearing different stories from teams and people you wouldn't have otherwise met

#3 Seeing use of other technologies you didn't see at your regional/district.

#4 Ability to compete again during the season. For instance, we could only afford one regional event but after we got the word out that we were invited to attend the world championship we were able to raise the necessary money. That is money we couldn't get to go to another regional but being able to say "championship" made a difference in giving it seemed and allowed us to extend our season.

#5 Dealing with the stress was a learning experience in itself. It really was a wake up call to the younger students about countless things and when we are able to compete more effectively we can take this knowledge with us and do that much better.

#6 leaning how to plan travel in the future and seeing improvements to be made to communication.

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

Georgia will be going to the District Model next year. You can achieve all of these goals at a District Championship.

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

Note in these descriptions that almost none of the competitions will be held in a large sports stadium. They look like they all will be held in convention centers similar to the majority of matches in 2011 in Atlanta. The sports arena experience will be disappear.

One alternative solution to this problem, that may still be unsatisfactory, but ensures that a large audience can see the "ultimate" final. The problem is that one set of teams may miss more school, although that can be mitigated.
Bring the top 4 alliances from champsplit 1 to champsplit 2 and have them play on the Einstein field set up in the sports stadium on the final day. There wouldn't be separate champions for the champsplits, just qualifiers. This would turn them each effectively into Super Regionals. Unfortunately we almost certainly never see alliances that mixed Texas teams with Michigan/Ontario teams.

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

Understand that the Texas and Michigan/Ontario teams will never cross over to the other venue in any significant numbers. And that might be true for an even wider area.

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

I am only making an observation not a threat. I can't control what other teams are considering. We aren't organizing an uprising. But I do know that there is enough dissatisfaction with the proposal across many, many teams that consistently play in the elimination rounds at Champs that I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this happen. IRI already is a very popular event. Teams interested in focusing on a single unified champion might decide that will become their championship.

I think that most/all of these teams would be very sad to leave the official champs, but then they have conflicting motivations. Helping and interacting with other teams is one, but the other is probably more important. FRC is about competition as a motivation toward cultural change--this is not set of science fairs. And the most successful teams are motivated by competition. 254 and 1114 year after year try to win the championship with the most innovated well-executed robots. If they were just interested in traveling to Champs to help other teams they could rest on their laurels as HOF teams--they automatically qualify every year. It's that competitive fire that really motivates them, so expect them to choose based on that motivation over any other. It's not a put down for other teams; it reflects the core of their teams' culture which is directly in line with the unique principle that FIRST relies on to motivate students towards STEM.

I will make a point that often make here: You cannot rely on the "goodwill" of individuals to arrive at your overall community goal. You need to set out the right incentives with concrete consequences to arrive at those goals. The Chairman's award is a great example of how an incentive has led to a culture of coopertition where teams now share their experiences and resources. But that didn't come about just because FIRST told everyone to do it. If champsplits undermines the competitive incentives of the top tier teams, then expect them to act differently in the future. If you want them to continue to share their experiences at Champs, then give them the right incentives to participate.

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

Here's my theory: it's not the fact that you qualified for championships, it's knowing that you succeeded.

To jman4747: I think you've brought up many interesting (and some valid) points, but please consider how your posts are coming across. Being in the minority is hard, but I think you can get your opinions across if you're careful and respectful.

To others who've replied: I've always found the majority of CD posters to be mentors on famous teams. It creates an amazing collection of knowledge and a great place to learn. I also think it means sometimes CD forgets not everyone is like them. Because you guys are adults, but students are just kids.

A few pages back, when I wrote my post about how people are emotional and thus FIRST needs two different goals, I think I missed something that has an equally large role. It's that FRC is aimed at high schoolers. Students. Kids. People who are emotional to an even larger degree. We're passionate, insecure, often irrational, and in the end, just people trying to make sense of a world that's huge, confusing, and sometimes just plain unfair. It's why students and young adults are often at the base of most social movements. It's how Hitler and Mao Zedong gained power (Hitler Youth / Red Army), how the civil rights movement and Vietnam War protests gained momentum, and why so many of my posts go on long winding roads that confuse even me.

Criticism is the key to improvement, yet it hurts. Being told you're not good enough is the only way to want to do better, yet it's hard. Knowing there are outside forces, outside your control, that define how your team does is true, but it's unfair.

Most students end up on teams shaped by mentors before they joined. Trying to change things when they're already being done a certain way is very, very hard. Instead of trying to push up, which can seem close to impossible, wouldn't it seem fairer if everyone could start again at the same level? If you're success wasn't defined by the mentors your team has (or doesn't have)? Sometimes we just want to know we have a chance. Sometimes we just want to know that we're not always at a disadvantage, that we can succeed. And then sometimes we need something higher to aim at. Sometimes logic just doesn't work because we're not logical. Sometimes we just don't want to listen, because the truth is hard.

I understand the emotions on both sides. There have been so many times I wish students could just look and see everything they've missed, that "good enough" is the main barrier keeping them from doing more, and to ignore the adults who say we can stop improving. But there are also so many times that I wish adults could understand what kids are really trying to say, and that sometimes, you need to tell students that they've succeeded before you can tell them to improve. And no, I don't have a solution. I'm personally way too confused to figure out what I really think, let alone figure out how to convince other students.

I think society in general has gone way too far in the "good enough" direction, but that CD often goes too far in the "never enough" direction. I think everyone, but students in general, need to hear both. I was told the first on my team, and joined CD because I got to hear the second. Hand out success in pieces: a bit to draw them in, a bit to keep them in, then space them out farther and farther so they keep pushing harder. Being told you're not good enough from the start just turns students away. Being told you're right when you know you're not just sounds fake. This is why I believe so strongly in the DCMPs -> single champs format.

Go too far one direction, and you won't keep the students you could really affect.
Go too far in the other direction, and you won't keep the mentors who really define FRC.

Note: This may not be representative of all students, or even most of them, just to be a huge over-generalization based on my own opinions and what I've seen. And I don't think I'm particularly representative of most students.
(Oh, and thanks David Lame, but I think if FIRST wants the opinions of the majority of students, I probably am not the best choice. Also, I did do my homework in the end...)

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

Not all of them. I think it will be just GA teams thus no interstate/international interaction. Also the venue for the state championship will likely be in Atlanta maybe 10-45 min from our shop.

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video
 

We are so spoiled in Michigan.



I think your view of the Championship Experience is one that is shared by many. It's a very "inside the stadium" view.