Chief Delphi - Town Hall Meeting Video

Page 1 of 2

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)

- Championship Event (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12)

- - Town Hall Meeting Video (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136953)

Siri	26-04-2015 22:00

Town Hall Meeting Video

For those who weren't there or are looking to review it, 1640's head mentor recorded the Town Hall meeting on the 2017 Half-World Championships. Please feel free to use it in your discussions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FFh...ature=youtu.be

EricDrost

26-04-2015 22:22

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Huge thanks to 1640 for this. Everybody should watch the Town Hall - it gives a very clear statement of what FIRST's priorities and nonpriorities are.

Louis_

26-04-2015 22:26

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Ah, thanks so much! I was looking for something like this. Can't wait to watch.

PayneTrain

26-04-2015 22:39

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

I know there is a powerpoint. Siri

a) do you know where it is
b) if so could you put it in the video description?
c) if not, does anyone else know where it is?

Siri	26-04-2015 22:56

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1476664)

I know there is a powerpoint. Siri

a) do you know where it is
b) if so could you put it in the video description?
c) if not, does anyone else know where it is?

Unfortunately I don't. The closest I've seen is IKE's notes on the matter, which cover at least some points. Cross-quoted from the preparation thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by IKE (Post 1475369)

From the notes I took and some personal thoughts about the meeting:

FIRST said they would open with about half the meeting explaining their thoughts and what went into the decision. The discussion would try to answer/cover what they deemed the 5 most frequently requested questions of:

Questions:

- What are FIRST's objectives with this decision?
- What process was used to make this decision, and why wasn't the FIRST community asked for input?
- How does this reduce travel costs, especially for West Coast teams?
- Doesn't having two championships weaken the competition aspect that helps make any sport exciting?
- What elements of the decision are set in stone and what elements can the community still help decide?

***************************************
Don Started with Objectives and Core Values and the importance of the organization to stay mission focused.
They wanted a solution taht scales. They wanted more kids to have access to the life changing experience of FIRST and FIRST Championship.
Enable more teams to participate in the FIRST Championship by reducing travel distances and transportation costs for a significant number of teams.
They reviewed a nice graphic that showed the growth of FIRST and the relative portion of population that attend FRC championship throughout the years.
Don brought up the desire to get to around 20% (up from 15%), and cited the 600 team events this year and next as the current method followed by teh 2 event as the follow on method.
Don frequently stated that in the 9 months of working towards the current plan, they did not find what they felt was an ideal solution, but did feel that what they found was the best options that they had.
Don mentioned some of the dificulties from a venue size and more importantly availability out through 2020. Don mentioned that the convention industry has had a lot of growth since their last contract award (IE going to St. Louis) which only makes sense from an eceonomy standpoint. (In MY Opinion, Don seemed to reference that some locations they really wanted were just not available until some time after 2020).
They mentioned again that the locations were chosen in part due to the number of teams within a given mileage (600 miles), that they cited as the range for persons to drive to the event. They basically cited that they felt really bad about California, and especially PNW, but it sounded like their hands were tied from venues standpoint.
There was some commentary on the weakening due to two events, but frankly that one was glazed over during this portion and they went into what was set in stone vs. what was flexible:

Non-negotiable:
2 "Championships" through 2020
400 FRC teams at each event (800 total)
Must have FIRST Progression of programs at each event (IE FLL/FTC/FRC).

FIRST is "exploring":

- Options for a post-season, broadcasted, event between winning alliances
- Opening a percentage of slots at each Championship to teams from the other Championship region
- Other options for adding to the value of Championship for teams

At the end, they covered that FRC used the bulk of floorspace citing about 80-90%.

This opened to Q&A. People were asked to go to Mics (there were two), they asked persons to keep their questions to about 30 seconds, and they would be allowed a follow up if they didn't feel their questions was adequately covered. They did remind people of "Gracious Professionalism". People giving Questions were asked to give Name, Location, and team affiliation. I will save names and teams, but will cite location as it seemed relevant for some:

From NH mentor: Asked if there could be a focus on conferences and other Championship items be brought to District Champs and Regionals.
I believe Frank ansered that it was an idea that would be investigated. NH mentor asked how to get involved and Frank asked her to email him.

CA mentor #1: Asked why "Community" was not engaged in decision making process. Don Bossi cited the need when negotiating for venues that they cannot involve everyone, but the survey they sent out hopes that they can keep the good and important stuff of th championship at both events. My notes are bad on CA mentor's follow up as it was something about Michigan Model and FIRST Core values (more on this later).

NY Mentor- FIRST time at Champs wanted to know more about location selection. ?? cited that FIRST from a geopgraphy standpoint would have liked Salt Lake City Utah & Detroit, but that could not be worked out.

CT Mentor: Brought up the need for this to follow the sports model and the need for a Champion (1 champion). Compared this to a divorce and splitting up the kids. This was more of a statement than a question.

CT Mentor/Student: Brought up the importance of international teams and cultural exchange, and wanted to know how their location was decided. ??? responded that they were still working through details on that. Additional exchange about the importance of international with accidental "rip" on Canadians not being real international, but was OK as the person was Canadian... A small chuckle from the crowd, but only answer was "we understand it is important, but are still working through those details."

CA Mentor #2: Asked about Super Regional model rolled out a couple years ago, and why that was not being followed. Answer was that FIRST thought districts would be more widespread by now. Some discussion about local leadership needing to take on District efforts, and that FIRST could not force their hand. Some good back and forth about districts from mentor that posed question. Follow up question asked how many FIRST Alum are on FIRST Board. Answer was "0", and mentor mentioned that was an issue.

North Carolina Mentor: Brought up concern for Safety and bringing students to DETROIT. Don brought up the extra efforts FIRST does with Cities to ensure Safety. Brought up the extra police, and some of the newspaper reputation St. Louis has. Mentioned he has been to Michigan and Detroit and felt safe. Some back and forth with the mentor about concerns about Detroit. Concern about finding safe lodging "just outside the city" was follow up. No real answer by FIRST.*
*As someone that lives in Detroit Metro, I can assure you there is very very nice areas in the Metro area that are very reasonable drive to the city. I lived at 9.5 and Woodward for 5 years and loved the area. Downtown Detroit is actually really nice, but there are dangerous parts/areas, but that is pretty much every big city.

CA Mentor #1 Round 2: As this mentor had already discussed 2 topics, FIRST asked other questioners if they were OK waiting. They were, so CA Mentor discussed the District model, referenced people from FiM, and "its proven ability to generate new growth" and thus why 1 winner is needed. FIRST disagreed that the growth was primarily due to having a champion and instead cited growth as primarily FiM having a growth goal culture, engaging schools, sponsors, and engaging Gov. Snyder and State legislature to provide funding support for new teams. CA Mentor #1 referenced the need for 1 real world champion and the goal for that is a major driving force in his efforts.

NJ #1 Mentor: Asked why FIRST did not engage experts in decision. Cited airline experience and Detroit being a shrinking Hub. FIRST asked him to get to his question. He cited concerns about bringing kids to the most Dangerous City in the US. His follow up question was asking which FIRST member has vacationed in Detroit. FIRST cited some similar items about safety as earlier question, and the Mentor asked again who had vacationed in Detroit to which no one had.

*It should be noted that I believe there is a FIRST regional in or within 20 minutes of 7/10 of these most dangerous cities in the US, and St. Louis, current World Championship cite is #4... Just sayin....http://lawstreetmedia.com/crime-amer...ties-200000-2/
**Note there are several nice "I'm so tough I vacation in Detroit" T-Shirts available at various stores...

I got up to ask a comment/make a statement. I believe there were 2 more questions, one from:

CA Mentor #3, but I did not take notes.

NJ #2 Mentor, I also missed notes for his, but I think it was more of a comment than a question.

At that point, time was up.

These are my notes/shorthand. Overall, I thought a reasonable effort was given to explain their decision and their rationale. Like most town halls, there seemed to be a fair amount of airing of grievances and ensuring ones voice is heard. I admire the passion that all of the presenters and question askers showed for their topics.

I talked with one of the question/statement persons with regards to the need for 1 Champion. It was not terribly productive as I was trying to cite the "IMO" need for mindset beyond winning, and her and several supporters made it clear the need for role models that are pointed out by them winning.

As far as dodging questions, I really only felt that the "need for 1 champion" and "where are internationals teams going" were dodged. In general, the "need for 1 champion" weren't really questions and instead were statements of concerned persons. I can see how this may have come across as "dodgy", but again the comments seemed more like statements than questions when poised. In this scenario, those answering were likely wiser than I as they didn't try to change anyones mind, just asked if they had a question to follow their statement.

************************************************** ***
The statement that I wanted to bring up, but ran out of time was that the citing of Michigan growth was not due to crowning a champion. FYI, at MSC, you have 1 Champion alliance, 3 MSC Chairman winners, and 1 team that has the most points (often but not always a MSC event winner). Since 2009, I have never heard any of the 3 MSC CA winners complain abuot getting a dilluted award. I have heard others talk about how unfair or difficult it is to win and MSC CA, but no one I talked to was sad when they won. IMO, the really important part of FiM was giving every team an opportunity to compete, improve, and compete each season (which all districts currently do), and a focus on improving middle and bottom tier teams to make a stronger overall community. This lead to more widespread support which in turn lead to more events and more cities being involved which lead to more impact to the community which eventually lead to getting the Governor and other Legislative persons engaged in supporting FIRST in Michigan.

************************************************** ***

My favorite set of questions was CA Mentor #2. I too prefer the Super regional model and was curious why that seemed to go away. During the explanation, I sensed a great deal of frustration that the "District model" has not taken off in certain areas. I also thought that the question of "alumni" on the board was a very good point/question to make. When I was in high school, I was one of 2 Junior Leaders that sat on the fair council meetings. While we were outnumbered by adults, it was occasionally beneficial for them to get/understand the student perspective for decisions. I think having a former student or having a panel of say Dean's List students weighing in on some important questions might benefit FIRST a lot.

************************************************** ***

Alex Webber

26-04-2015 23:03

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this, and to upload it to YouTube. I hope to share this with some of our important team members :)

Akash Rastogi

26-04-2015 23:08

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

A few photos and snapchats exist of the powerpoint slides. I can try to compile them tomorrow.

Clem1640

26-04-2015 23:09

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

I've posted photographs of the slides here:

http://wiki.team1640.com/index.php?t...n_Hall_Meeting

Alex Webber

26-04-2015 23:17

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clem1640 (Post 1476685)

I've posted photographs of the slides here:

http://wiki.team1640.com/index.php?t...n_Hall_Meeting

Thanks for the slides. Was kinda hard to keep hearing "slides".

dcarr

26-04-2015 23:30

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

I haven't watched the entirety of this video yet, but based on what I've picked up so far, the attitude and answers of those on stage do not represent anything close to servant leadership, which I believe an organization like FIRST deserves.

Thanks very much to those who were able to attend the meeting and made their voices heard.

Edit after watching; I’m left with little to no additional understanding as to why FIRST felt that the Championsplit was the best solution to the goals that they outlined (which we basically already knew). Killing half the allotted time repeating the contents of the announcement and rambling about airlines was not a good use of anyone’s time. Some of the patronizing non-answers are what I'd expect to hear from politicians, not the people we place our faith in to lead FIRST. Mike's question about involving key people in the community in this decision was never really answered in any sincere way.

Hallry

27-04-2015 00:41

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Two moments I wanted to point out in the video:

1. When the moderator talks over Shaun McNulty while he's asking a question: https://youtu.be/8FFhhPlrRvM?t=3179

2. When the moderator questions Mike Corsetto, after he fairly got back in line after asking his original question: https://youtu.be/8FFhhPlrRvM?t=2892

Akash Rastogi

27-04-2015 00:59

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clem1640 (Post 1476685)

I've posted photographs of the slides here:

http://wiki.team1640.com/index.php?t...n_Hall_Meeting

Thank you!

Navid Shafa

27-04-2015 01:18

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1476751)

How about showing a little of that Gracious Professionalism they were asking the audience members to exhibit...

cadandcookies

27-04-2015 01:57

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navid Shafa (Post 1476766)

How about showing a little of that Gracious Professionalism they were asking the audience members to exhibit...

I could also point out longwinded and not particularly constructive comments likening this separation to a divorce, as well as the tendency of many of the questioners to preface a two sentence question with a minute of story time.

Many of the community members could have taken a lesson in gracious professionalism from the people on stage. The panel never failed to answer questions respectfully, even when those questions were only partially veiled personal attacks.

The valid points made by many of the community members present were overshadowed by their combatative phrasing. I find it unfortunate that the community seems to have used this meeting more as a time to vent at the higher ups in FIRST than to engage in a constructive dialogue about the future of this program that we all hold so dear.

I love this program, and I'm not a fan of the two championships concept, but watching this meeting was incredibly frustrating for me, watching people that I hold in incredibly high esteem behaving in ways that remind me more of bickering children than of people out to change our world. The entire world is not your team, and we all have distinct challenges and advantages. It's very important in my opinion to look at the championship split in the greater context of a growing FRC program and FIRST's stated goals-- districts in the US (and probably eventually elsewhere), the desire to keep the current feel of championships as more than just the FRC World Championship, and the likelihood of an eventual three-tiered model similar to FTC. From a road-map perspective, this is the inevitably awkward transition stage as we move FRC from a widely-spread but still mostly unknown competition to a fixture both in the USA and the world. A few years of dual championships is a price I'm willing to pay while we wait for our state, national, and global programs to mature to a point where can truly say that our championship is the superbowl of smarts.

Navid Shafa

27-04-2015 03:35

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadandcookies (Post 1476777)

I definitely am not implying that every single person asking a question handled themselves well. That being said, I am at least a little taken aback at the defensive nature of the moderator/panel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

The valid points made by many of the community members present were overshadowed by their combatative phrasing. I find it unfortunate that the community seems to have used this meeting more as a time to vent at the higher ups in FIRST than to engage in a constructive dialogue about the future of this program that we all hold so dear.

I have to disagree with you here. I felt that even some of the more "combative" members prompted some well-thought out questions and were intending to provoke some meaningful discussion. The panel knew people would be frustrated, and I'm not exactly sure what kind of response they were expecting. Bringing a decision to the community without community involvement, adding non-negotiables and leaving the room with the impression that nothing is to change is certainly disconcerting...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

I love this program, and I'm not a fan of the two championships concept, but watching this meeting was incredibly frustrating for me, watching people that I hold in incredibly high esteem behaving in ways that remind me more of bickering children than of people out to change our world.

My thoughts of these individuals certainly didn't change because of it. One of the biggest things that has the community inspired by these mentors is their PASSION. I didn't see what was presented as childish bickering, I saw them expressing legitimate concerns and asking important questions, while not receiving answers in return. I felt those that spoke represented the views of the community well and I'm thankful that they were able to speak, for whatever good it may do us in the long run...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadandcookies

The entire world is not your team, and we all have distinct challenges and advantages. It's very important in my opinion to look at the championship split in the greater context of a growing FRC program and FIRST's stated goals

Many of the people speaking have been on several, if not a handful of (successful) teams over the course of their FIRST careers. While no single individual is going to be able to capture the perspectives of the entire community, I think they need to be cognisant of the impact of the decisions they are making and consult those with different perspectives. I'm grateful that Don is doing his best to reach out to and speak with teams as he travels, but that is not enough for him or the board to weigh in on the perspectives of all of FRC either. Not consulting mentors/alumni and knowing that these demographics are not well-represented on the board is disappointing.

While I'm not happy with the decisions that have been made/are being made, I'm even less happy with the processes that are being used to reach their conclusions.

Thanks to everyone that represented the community at the meeting, I wish I would have been able to get to that part of the dome at the time. Thank you 1640 for providing us with footage, until FIRST releases theirs along with a summary/statement.

momter

27-04-2015 09:14

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Very discouraged by teams who believe that being the winner is the goal of the program. Especially coming from Mentors. Of course we all would love to win. That is not the core of FIRST as one speaker at the town hall mistakenly stated. It's time for teams to reevaluate the core goals of FIRST. You're sliding down the slippery slope to where athletics has landed. I have witnessed mentors explode over the results of a match. What message does that send? It breaks my heart to see this. In reality, many teams will still not qualify for the championships due to the lack of resources that are available to them. Maybe we should be more concerned about this than where we will be competing or how many trophys we can collect. In addition, I've lived near Detroit and have spent time in Detroit. It will be a fantastic venue!

The_ShamWOW88

27-04-2015 10:27

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Push districts....

wilsonmw04

27-04-2015 10:37

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_ShamWOW88 (Post 1476881)

Push districts....

This is what is going to need to happen. The Super regional model looked legit, but with the slow adoption of districts it has forced FIRST's hand. The graph was very enlightening for me. The "good old days" had a much larger percentage of teams at worlds than today.

The_ShamWOW88

27-04-2015 10:38

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Ironic that Mike C. stated his goals are to win a Championship and now they have....

Just an observation, no offense intended....

Justin Montois

27-04-2015 10:40

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by momter (Post 1476836)

Very discouraged by teams who believe that being the winner is the goal of the program. Especially coming from Mentors.

We all agree that inspiring students is the goal. Where we disagree is how to get there. I believe that success on the field (Winning) is the most effective way to inspire. From that success inherently comes a positive experience for students and lots of learning. Other people believe that inspiration comes from letting students design and build the robot and run the team and don't necessarily pay attention to the results on the field is the best way to inspire.

Teams, of course, have the right to operate how they wish. I don't think it's fair though to judge mentors and that feel differently than you do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by momter (Post 1476836)

In reality, many teams will still not qualify for the championships due to the lack of resources that are available to them. Maybe we should be more concerned about this than where we will be competing or how many trophys we can collect. In addition, I've lived near Detroit and have spent time in Detroit. It will be a fantastic venue!

To me, this issue has a very strong connection with the previous one. Some teams, not all, but some teams struggle to find additional sponsors, mentors, recruit students ETC because they don't pay attention to the results on the field. I'm sorry but few people want to be apart of a team that struggles year after year.

I've spent a lot of time reading and studying the book 'The Five Dysfunctions of a Team' by Patrick Lencioni

The pyramid below outlines the book in a sense. The top of the Pyramid is 'Inattention to Results'. Success matters.

As I said, teams have the right to run themselves how they see fit. Don't judge how other mentors and students choose to run their teams.

wilsonmw04

27-04-2015 10:51

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Montois (Post 1476894)

*snip*
To me, this issue has a very strong connection with the previous one. Some teams, not all, but some teams struggle to find additional sponsors, mentors, recruit students ETC because they don't pay attention to the results on the field. I'm sorry but few people want to be apart of a team that struggles year after year.

The pyramid below outlines the book in a sense. The top of the Pyramid is 'Inattention to Results'. Success matters.

Your outcome is dictated by your worldview. You feel that success comes from the field of play. I disagree with that entirely. I measure success, and in turn my team does as well, by how many students we get excited about STEM. How many students we graduate to college. How many students come back to mentor as Alums. If a team is "struggling" it probably has nothing at all to do with the ranking of the robot on any given field, but rather another issue all together. You are correct that success matters. How each team measures their success is different. One is no better than the other. However, my "successes" are a lot more under my control. Your's is dependent on the chaotic nature of an FRC game field.

momter

27-04-2015 11:04

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Success on the field can lead to more sponsors but not always. Not every team is located in an area where sponsors are. Many will not support teams out of their area and private/ parochial schools do not have access to some funding available to public school teams. Just like most teams do not build at a tech center or corporate facility. I don't think there is a team out there (students & mentors) who do not want success on the field but it's slot sweeter when you actually do the work. There is a lot to learn from not always winning too. This has nothing to do with who's "running" the team. Gracious professionalism starts at home

smistthegreat

27-04-2015 11:11

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Before cmp, I was very against 2champz. Now, I'm still against it, but at least a little conflicted. I was in attendance at the town hall meeting, and my opinions were definitely impacted by the response I saw there. I'll try to explain as best I can.

My team is a very young team. My team is not motivated by trying to be world champions, since right now it is not a realistic goal. We qualified for cmp this year by winning a regional as the 23rd pick, and missed division elims. Was it worth it? Yes. My students absolutely loved it. They went to the innovation fair, talked to college reps, met their heroes (Grant Imahara, Dean, Woodie), and made friends from around the world. They were inspired by the championship experience, and I believe that other students on other teams should be able to experience this. My students had a wonderful, inspiring time at this cmp, and as a mentor I consider this a success.

BUT

Not at the expense of the competition. As a student on another team, I was able to compete on the Einstein field. I still consider this a defining moment in my life. It's easy to talk about how the program is more than the robot, and the teams that would benefit from an expanded cmp far outnumber those who feel disenchanted or alienated by this dilution of the competition. But the relatively few teams that are driven by the desire to be world champions make this program what it is, and I don't believe FRC could be the same without them. These are not teams that are made up of intimidating, win-at-any-expense people. These teams that are so vehemently opposed to this change are literally the teams that make FRC what it is. They are teams that run off season events, start other teams, win prestigious awards, and volunteer their time and resources to inspire others.

I love this program. This program has shaped me into the engineering student and mentor I am today. I have been inspired by winning events. I have been inspired by talking to elite teams. I have been inspired by the championship experience. And I believe that this program will not be the same without all of the above.

momter

27-04-2015 11:12

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1476901)

Well said.

RonnieS

27-04-2015 11:13

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by momter (Post 1476836)

I have had multiple teams come to me after winning a district and express how much this means to them and the inspiration their students received after the previous day of competition and them loosing hope.Who FIRST is trying to bring in are people who are used to the mindset of working towards a goal of winning, rather it be directly or indirectly.
What do resources have to do with advancing? It is our job as the FIRST community to inspire these kids and there are many of us who feel the best way is by winning. They then justify the trails and tribulations that they went through as a team and will be way more excited to come back the next year to compete and strive to do better. Rather a teams goal is to win the district or make finals, it is still winning. They reached that goal; they have to continue to expand that goal which will/should involve winning a regional or district.
This year we encountered a rookie team that did not have the mentors to help them succeed. We invited them to build with us for the season as they learned TONS. Mind you, they barely had screwdrivers to assemble the KoP chassis and they had zero way to meet as their "mentor" thought an hour meeting a week would suffice. With inspiration from our team, they strive to win. That was their mind set and ambitions as a rookie. They went on to qualify for the Michigan state championship and had a very successful season winning multiple awards. I am super proud of what they did. Bottom line, winning was their goal and that inspired them more throughout the season than many teams I have seen. There knowledge has grown tremendously and I am confident that they will be a force to recon with.

-Ronnie

momter

27-04-2015 11:19

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by smistthegreat (Post 1476915)

Many teams engage in theses other activities year round and win many awards. We ALL make FRC what it is not just those who dominate on the field.

Tom Line

27-04-2015 11:27

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadandcookies (Post 1476777)

Thank you. Thank you so much for summing up in one post a lot of the ways I've been thinking. I dislike the two championship concept as well. However, I've been absolutely shocked at the conduct of many of the people responding: especially the mentors. I've seen name calling, thinly veiled ridicule by some of of our 'top' teams, horrible mentor conduct, and so many instances of poor student / team member conduct about this issue that it would take pages and pages to list it.

FIRST may have a lot to learn, but so do a lot of the members of this community. There is a right way and a wrong way to solve problems. We're supposed to be teaching the right way.

momter

27-04-2015 11:29

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonnieS (Post 1476917)

Resources do make a difference in robot performance, especially in MI. We all strive to win. That said, situations like what you describe in really helping struggling teams can inspire students more in the long run. We have witnessed this year after year with teams we worked with. Changing the culture is the key.

Eugene Fang

27-04-2015 11:54

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by smistthegreat (Post 1476915)

My students absolutely loved it. They went to the innovation fair, talked to college reps, met their heroes (Grant Imahara, Dean, Woodie), and made friends from around the world.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. It's unlikely that such a busy person as Grant will be able to dedicate two weekends in a year to visit both FIRST championships. If I were a student, I'd be disappointed if the championship my team was going to didn't have the same celebrities or opportunities provided by the other.

RonnieS

27-04-2015 12:15

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by momter (Post 1476928)

I invite you to tour 314 classroom. It is made for kinder gardeners. They seem to be making some great robots out of it. This is with hand drills and hole matching and amazing effort.

-Ronnie

smistthegreat

27-04-2015 12:23

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugene Fang (Post 1476947)

That's an excellent point. I've been operating under the assumption that each of the 2champz will be of similar "inspiration quality" (non robot events) as the current cmp, which I believe is the goal. This may end up not being true.

momter

27-04-2015 12:30

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonnieS (Post 1476970)

I invite you to tour 314 classroom. It is made for kinder gardeners. They seem to be making some great robots out of it. This is with hand drills and hole matching and amazing effort.

-Ronnie

I would love to. We are also doing great thinks with our Elementary and middle school regarding robotics and coding. These younger students are so eager to learn.

JaneYoung

27-04-2015 12:51

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugene Fang (Post 1476947)

There is room for more celebrities. More VIPs. We only limit ourselves by our thinking.

That would actually make a good thread topic discussion.

Jane

Jared Russell

27-04-2015 13:17

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Unfortunately (and as expected) this town hall went exactly like every other town hall I've ever seen or been to.

The people in attendance have already self-selected for being particularly passionate about the issues being discussed, and damage the effectiveness of their otherwise-legitimate concerns by failing to separate their anger from their message and taking cheap-shots with the microphone. Meanwhile, the people answering questions under the spotlight can't really deviate from the party line, are put on the defensive by all the hostility, and as a result end up getting short with the audience. By the end, everyone's blood pressure is higher. This just proves, that no matter how smart or well-respected the participants are, we in FIRST (on all sides) are human.

lynca

27-04-2015 13:34

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Congrats to the FIRST board for holding a town hall and walking through the difficult process of selecting a championship venue.

I watched the whole town hall.
I encourage everyone to watch the entire video before posting their opinions on the dual championship model.
The questions and heckling from the audience left me disappointed for many FIRST mentors.
Some where along the way for those FIRST mentors, Dean's gracious professionalism message has been lost.

My key takeways from the presentation:
1. FIRST decided to hold firm the January kickoff date instead of shifting the six week model into December to accommodate a super-regional schedule.
2. West coast venues were not available, Houston was the next best option (low-cost flights for western teams)
3. FIRST is exploring the idea of allowing teams to choose which championship to attend
4. The Dual championship model will scale as FIRST grows

Key takeways from the Q&A session:
1. A FIRST alumni is not on the board of directors
2. FIRST is considering a summer event that brings together the winners of each championship (hint hint... IRI)
3. FIRST Mentors need to focus on asking questions and proposing solutions , not heckling the board.

Matt_Boehm_329

27-04-2015 13:41

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by lynca (Post 1477038)

2. FIRST is considering a summer event that brings together the winners of each championship (hint hint... IRI)

Doesn't this make a true competition championship even more exclusive though rather than expanding the experience to a wider audience?

connor.worley

27-04-2015 13:46

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_Boehm_329 (Post 1477050)

Doesn't this make a true competition championship even more exclusive though rather than expanding the experience to a wider audience?

It's something like a compromise.

wilsonmw04

27-04-2015 13:47

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_Boehm_329 (Post 1477050)

Doesn't this make a true competition championship even more exclusive though rather than expanding the experience to a wider audience?

They might just be making IRI "official" that is all. Besides, teams self select for IRI anyway.

JaneYoung

27-04-2015 14:00

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1477058)

They might just be making IRI "official" that is all. Besides, teams self select for IRI anyway.

This is only true for the field competition side of things. And that is fine. IRI is IRI; it is not FIRST. It only reflects a few facets of the multifaceted organization. For those focused on the field competition aspect, IRI fills the need and will likely continue to. FIRST is much broader in scope and in sharing its mission and goals than IRI can ever be. Each serves a purpose.

Jane

brandon.cottrell

27-04-2015 14:31

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

By the way for anyone who might be confused because you can't see it, the weird noise during the last question of the town hall meeting was the microphone randomly falling off the stand and the guy asking the question catching it. It was a sweet catch.

EricDrost

27-04-2015 14:57

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandon.cottrell (Post 1477101)

It was a sweet catch.

Thanks! :cool:

steelerborn

27-04-2015 17:56

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

I am a mentor in California, and hearing the comments made about my state essentially being lazy and taking too long to make a decision on districts really made me upset. It seemed that every single question that was asked from Michael was fielded with something about how California needs to get on the ball. Just really upset me because I feel that there were some great questions that were not answered fully. I am so ready to help with this in anyway I can! Michael if you are reading this let me know how I can help out with the districts!

I personally like the two championship idea, as long as there is some "final" match event with the winners of both. And some other things will need to be adjusted. But I think it is wrong how it was done without notifying or asking for input from important members of the FIRST community.

Concerning the safety issues about Detroit... St. Louis is second in the country when it comes to crime... And Atlanta is also in the top 6 at least.
FIRST has had championships in some "dangerous" places, and I haven't heard very many reports from teams about how bad the cities were.

Libby K

27-04-2015 18:02

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricDrost (Post 1476656)

Huge thanks to 1640 for this. Everybody should watch the Town Hall - it gives a very clear statement of what FIRST's priorities and nonpriorities are.

This is so true.

What scared the hell out of me was the snippy answer to "How many FIRST Alumni are on the BoD?" and resulting followup. It's unfair that the decisions that affect our community most are being made by those who don't know what the community is truly like. It's one thing to visit teams and talk with them, but another to live and breathe the team for months at a time, if not the entire calendar year.

On top of that, the 'we can't poll thousands of people' rationale just doesn't make sense to me. You have a Hall of Fame. You have the Championship WFA's. Use those as a focus group - you've identified them as being the best people and programs in FIRST, so why not use them?!

I'm still trying to digest my thoughts on this one, but so far - not at all fair to teams, and not at all happy with it. I'm very glad FIRST at least made an attempt to open the door with discussion... but they certainly did not handle it well at all.

meg	27-04-2015 18:24

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelerborn (Post 1477337)

I personally like the two championship idea, as long as there is some "final" match event with the winners of both. And some other things will need to be adjusted. But I think it is wrong how it was done without notifying or asking for input from important members of the FIRST community.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelerborn (Post 1477337)

Concerning the safety issues about Detroit... St. Louis is second in the country when it comes to crime... And Atlanta is also in the top 6 at least.
FIRST has had championships in some "dangerous" places, and I haven't heard very many reports from teams about how bad the cities were.

Did you see this thread? There was also a murder just a few blocks from the dome on Friday. The safety of St. Louis is also a very serious concern for me. Our team specifically chose to have the students miss more school and drive instead of fly because we were so concerned about safety on the public transit in St. Louis.

In a slightly different note, I did my best to express a concern instead of being aggressive the panelists, I understand that they're working hard. I definitely didn't appreciate being asked if I "believed everything I read in the papers". It was insulting to me to be dismissed so easily.

Banderoonies

27-04-2015 18:37

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libby K (Post 1477345)

Totally agree! It is for the above reasons (not getting community input), that many in the FRC community felt unrepresented leaving them frustrated and angry.

Some here in this string considered negative positions to be "ungracious". I would suggest it is "ungracious" to not allow folks to articulate their views on the decision. Only allowing questions and not allowing people to voice opinions, made people feel that their opinions on the decision didn't matter.

They had to know this news would not be popular. People need a chance to voice their free speech rights and opinions without being made to feel like negative positions are automatically considered "ungracious". No one got openly nasty or inappropriate. They merely voiced their displeasure.

People love this program and put many years into it and they all have a right to have a voice in how they feel when someone is shaking up the world they have come to love.

Had decisions been made by including a subset of folks who actually were part of the FRC community (legacy? hall of fame?), it may have been much easier to accept change and I think there would have been less frustration....I also think the resulting solution would have been very different.

steelerborn

27-04-2015 19:05

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by meg (Post 1477363)

I think it would need to be more than just the top 2 teams competing. What if the top 4 teams at one event were better than the winner of the other?

Since the two events are on different weeks, there will be significant advantage to the teams playing that week. Not only do they have an extra week to prepare (and let's be honest here, most of the teams on Einstein have 2 robots), but they will be able to see how the first championship event did things and be able to take those and improve upon them. Which is in the spirit of FIRST, but hardly makes the Championships even playing ground

Did you see this thread? There was also a murder just a few blocks from the dome on Friday. The safety of St. Louis is also a very serious concern for me. Our team specifically chose to have the students miss more school and drive instead of fly because we were so concerned about safety on the public transit in St. Louis.

In a slightly different note, I did my best to express a concern instead of being aggressive the panelists, I understand that they're working hard. I definitely didn't appreciate being asked if I "believed everything I read in the papers". It was insulting to me to be dismissed so easily.

Meg, I hope I am not coming across as mean or argumentative since we were also just talking in a previous thread.

I did not see that thread thank you for bringing that to my attention. And I also did not hear about the murder not far from the dome. I knew there was one on the metrolink I believe several months ago. St. Louis is not a safe city, Detroit is not a safe city. Big cities will naturally have higher crime rates. I am very protective of all of my students whenever I go to nationals, and I also used to live near Detroit so I know how it is.

About the extra time the First champ winners will receive I think that this is an excellent point. I could think of a couple of solutions (but doesn't matter since FIRST did not ask on input). One could be to hold them alternating every year (St. Louis, then Houston, and then the next year Houston, Detroit). Another is that the teams could ship their bot right after the championship to the other event, and sign a form stating that they will not use their practice bots in the meantime. I think that this would be acceptable, and also play best of 5 instead of best of three.

I don't think the top 4 alliances should get to go. FIRST is a competition and the reason people don't like the 2 champ idea is because it (to an extent) is taking this aspect out of FIRST. By taking the top 4 you are essentially taking the competition out as well by making 4 alliances winners. Also FIRST would/should pay for all the travel, shipping, and hotel costs for the teams that win the first event. I feel like this is within reason to do for the 4 winning teams on the winning alliance.

George Nishimura

27-04-2015 19:14

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

I attended the meeting. My frustration with the panel was they set out at the beginning a set of questions, and didn't fully answer all of them.

I would actually prefer if they gave a medium where people can submit questions and they would give a thought out and lengthy response, rather than immediate, hand-wavy answers to avoid answering the difficult questions.

I think the moderator was right to ask whether the other questioners were fine with Mike asking a second question; there was limited time and some people didn't get the chance to ask their question in the end, so it was the polite thing to do.

The panel was defensive, but on the flipside I thought the questions were unnecessarily aggressive. While it clearly shows their passion, aggressive questions are not as effective as clear concise ones.

I had two questions that I didn't get to ask (and will email soon):

1. How is this scalable? If FRC had > 4000 teams, we will have 3 championships?

2. Considering they will have to negotiate 2020+ contracts soon (as they said), have they learned anything from this announcement? Are they going to approach it differently?

Banderoonies

27-04-2015 19:23

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by momter (Post 1476836)

I certainly hope you didn't misconstrued my comment in the town hall as "being a winner is the goal of the program" because that was NOT my intent and also not what I said.

I said that high school age kids "want a champion". Having someone to look up to and aspire to be is a motivator for improvement. Having been abruptly cut off by the moderator, it unfortunately scrambled my thoughts along with my ability to articulate my points of view effectively. For that I will apologize as i should have been better at keeping my concentration despite this interruption.

The point I was trying to make was this: Years ago, I was inspired and motivated by Team MOE (365). They WON Chairman's. That means they were the best in the world and the champions of spreading the FIRST mission. Seeing their success was my motivator to do all I could to inspire my team through their example.

My students have learned more because of a change in mindset on our team. This mindset change came from being motivated by MOE and other champions both on and off the field. We went from "finish the robot and it's good enough" frame of mind...to a mindset of "Our job is never done till FIRST's mission is fulfilled". That means, continuous improvement on the robot- to LEARN, continuous outreach to our community to drive the first mission and continuous learning, growth and improvement. That was the point I was trying to make and had I not been cut off, maybe I could have articulated it better.

skatsu

27-04-2015 20:23

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Thanks 1640 for the video. Here are some thoughts:

Looks like the first needs to implement something like what most schools have like a PTA. There should be an organization that represents the students and FRC programs. They "talk" about cooperating with the community, but sounds more like lip-service.

Tom Line

27-04-2015 20:34

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by skatsu (Post 1477474)

No more groups please. One person, approved by WFA winners, whose sole responsibility is to represent us at every major decision point. Give that person the ability to send out surveys and gather unbiased FIRST wide data. Frank Merrick is the voice of FIRST. Now we need a conscience.

Mike Schreiber

27-04-2015 20:35

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

I do appreciate FIRST's attempt at explaining things. Have to give them credit for trying. I understand that their really is no ideal solution, and FIRST is an organization run by people.

As an attendee I was a little annoyed that FIRST had hired a moderator as if there was some sort of debate to be had rather than having someone we know and respect talk to us openly and honestly. It seemed a very defensive move so that they wouldn't have to be the one to tell us "stop ranting and ask your question". The whole thing felt very political.

Speaking of people we know and respect - I couldn't help but notice how particularly quiet Frank was during this whole thing. It really gave me the vibe that this was not a well received and unified decision within FIRST (this is just my opinion from what I saw).

As others have said those asking questions could have been more polite, but this sort of thing happens when a decision is made which they disagree and they were not consulted.

I wanted to ask a logistical question but chose to let others ask theirs instead:

How is FIRST planning to do the competition at Cobo and the opening / closing ceremonies at Ford Field.

This is ~1 mile walk. While there is safety in numbers and it is probably no big deal for most students, this could be very difficult for some older or handicapped attendees. We also have to think about the sheer number of people that need to move across Detroit and how long it will take everyone to exit, re-enter and get seated. As if a 9 pm ending wasn't late enough this year. Many people chose to opt out from opening / closing ceremonies myself included due to a desire for dinner. If you add a 1 mile walk - who is going to even want to go?

Also how is FIRST planning to have any parking available?

This overlaps with both playoff Hockey, early Tigers games, and prime construction season. I tried to park near JLA and take the people mover to the Wing's game on Tuesday before the championship...it was not a quick process.

jman4747

27-04-2015 20:55

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1476901)

This is right. I helped fill out the GA WIT grant app for our team and not one part wanted to know how many trophies you won. A lot of people actually do care about the hard work more than the trophy.

One takeaway I got from the video was that in order to do super regional you need a more geographically consistent district structure but team growth is outpacing that.

I had wondered for a while early in my FRC career how California hadn't had a district structure with so many teams. It was shocking recently when GA FIRST asked if we wanted districts next year or not because I never thought we would get here before California. So I would say you can't assume that FIRST will grow how it seems it will now. I mean who in 2011 expected that GA would have districts by 2016-17?

PayneTrain

27-04-2015 22:07

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libby K (Post 1477345)

I'm really glad you said most of what I was thinking here so I didn't become unhinged trying to get the point across. My experience in FIRST this year can attract a variety of adjectives, but the three I'll use a lot in the coming days as I gather my thoughts are bizarre, baffling, and absurd. I find the extreme contrast between the words of the FIRST founder on alumni and FIRST's actions with alumni bizarre. I find the shunning of alumni who actively participate in FIRST to be baffling. I find the behavior of some FIRST personnel at the town hall towards alumni actively participating in FIRST absurd.

I work with this program because of how much it meant to me as a student. I've made sacrifices that on the surface seem pretty idiotic, but it's all for a program that I like to think has had my back and cares about the contributions I make to it. Well, I liked to think that.

Brandon_L

27-04-2015 22:16

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Has there been any discussion about what happens after 2020/contracts run out? Will we return to a single CMP?

dodar

27-04-2015 22:24

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon_L (Post 1477575)

Has there been any discussion about what happens after 2020/contracts run out? Will we return to a single CMP?

4 championships. One in Houston, Detroit, Atlanta, and Orlando. (Just trolling the West Coast teams)

PayneTrain

27-04-2015 22:25

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon_L (Post 1477575)

Has there been any discussion about what happens after 2020/contracts run out? Will we return to a single CMP?

I dunno about you but I sure hope they move up build season to after Thanksgiving.

grstex

27-04-2015 23:11

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

In case anyone is curious as to who is on the Board of Directors, all members of FIRST leadership are listed on their website. The executive advisory board has several former mentors.

T^2	27-04-2015 23:17

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1477486)

Nah. What FIRST needs is a competent competitor. Right now, they might as well be Standard Oil.

Andrew Y.

28-04-2015 00:03

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libby K (Post 1477345)

Nicely put. Unfortunantly some peple ive spoken with took my distaste for this decision as "why do you not want to reach more kids? It is not about winning. You need more GP"........smmhh

mwmac

28-04-2015 10:24

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by grstex (Post 1477616)

In case anyone is curious as to who is on the Board of Directors, all members of FIRST leadership are listed on their website. The executive advisory board has several former mentors.

Thanks for the link. Very interesting reading to be found in the FIRST Strategic Plan at the bottom. I was particularly amused by the second bullet point on page 4 of the strategic plan..."Create a more efficient, responsive organization...implement more robust systems and processes that are more responsive to the FIRST community..."

IKE	28-04-2015 11:37

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

I think things might have gone moderately better had the FIRST Panel accepted some of the peoples statements and acknowledged that they are entitled to their feelings. Many of the responses were inadvertently telling people that "I don't think your feelings are right, and here is why". I made this same mistake in a discussion after the town hall.

I was very worried by some of the comments that I heard coming from very respected mentors. I was also fired up due to people quoting things that I did not think were true (growth in Michigan factors) or personally know are not true (no safe places within 20 miles of Detroit). I went to have a discussion with one such mentor whose comments had me very concerned. The discussion quickly turned into both of us talking at each other vs. talking to/with each other. The discussion stayed a discussion though a bit adversarial when this persons team all stepped in to back this person up.

In retrospect, I was trying to convince that team that what they felt was not reality when in fact it is their reality. Their feelings are real to them, and needed to be acknowledged. I may not share their feelings, but trying to "fix" or "change" their feelings at that time was not going to happen and just validated that I was not in touch with their reality. To that mentor and team, sorry for having that conversation. I am sure I came off very condescending to you and your team trying to tell you how to improve your program. I may not have agreed with your feelings, but I should not have tried to change them.

I think the FIRST panel had the same problem. In several instances, they tried to "dismiss" or "correct" a persons feelings, when a higher level of empathy would have gone a long way.

For instance, with regards to concern about Detroit:

We hear your concern about safety of your students in an Area like Detroit. I know that for many mentors, these kids mean as much to you as your own kids. We had very similar concerns and did a lot of cite visits before making the decision. We know that doesn't increase your comfort, and as a mentor you will likely have an uphill battle with a lot of your parents, so we would like to work with teams to help mitigate the concerns that teams might have, and support their efforts in ensuring that teams can attend the Championship in Detroit. St. Louis has a very similar reputation (#2 to #4 depending on the list), and we did have instances where we had to work with teams to understand the safety that we ensure when hosting an event. You can see some of these measures if you look for the extra police officers that have been brought in along corridors of public transportation to and from the venues. We work hard with the cities to ensure that teams will have the safest and best experience we can give them. Let us know what sort of efforts we should make public in order to better support the difficult decision you will have to make, and the difficult discussions you will have to have when planning travel with parents.

This basically says the same thing they covered, but I think it would have gone over better.

With regards to the "students want a champion", had they said:

We agree with you that it is important that students and teams have role models, and often those role models are pointed out to them via the winning and champion alliance. Inspiration is one of the most important factors of FIRST, and we share your concern about the possible concern of 2 Champions vs. 1. Because of this, we have been and will continue to investigate possible alternatives and scenarios of a follow on event to have 1Champion Alliance. FIRST dealt with a similar concern when switching from single team to Alliances. There was a lot of consternation and people upset about no longer having truly 1 true champion. FIRST got another round of this when switching from 2 to 3 alliance members and the discussions still come up about the serpentine draft.
This does not mean that we are disregarding these concerns or that your concerns are ill placed. Having "a" champion is very important. We are just valuing having more participants in a Championship event as higher value than having a singular winner at that event. To show though that we do believe it has important value, we are investigated possiblilities and alternatives to get to a single alliance champion for FIRST.
It should be noted that for most High School sports, they stop at a State Champion, and thus there are at least 50 champions in the US alone. For many of the more popular High School Sports, you have different divisions or classes within a given state, and thus as many as 5 State champions for the same sport. When talking with a 2A Football State Champion, their title is no less meaningful than the title awarded to a 3A Football State Champion, though the debate often occurs when a single class sport (like Inidiana basketball) transitions from 1 class to multiple classes.
FIRST is not just a High School Sport, and we like being different. Again, this is why we are investigating ways to get to a single Champion.

With regards to "Divorce" and splitting up the family, had they said:

I really like the family analogy. In many ways, the FIRST Championship has been one of the wildest, craziest, and most fun family re-unions that anyone can imagine. If we can go back to the graphic, I think we can explain a lot better about how this family reunion has changed over the years. Early on, the family was small. Infact with only 30 some members, we could pretty much fit everybody anywhere. Over the years, we grew and grew. Very soon, it was too big to have just 1 event, so we created regionals, but still had a Championship where the whole family could get together. This model worked for quite a while even though the family grew at a crazy fast pace. We were always able to adjust the format of the re-union to accommodate those that wanted to come up until the late 2000s. By that time, FIRST had gotten big enough that it was getting very difficult to accomodate all who wanted and could afford to attend. We have since tried a lot of different ways to fit the family. Its really hard to find a place that can fit all the cousins, and second cousins, and .... this year we even went to a completely different format than the past, and it has frankly been a bit crazy. We will do it again like this next year, hopefully with some lessons learned from this year after we review how the event went, but we cannot find a way to make it work in a single venue. As we said before, we have reviewed options and did not find any ideal options, but we went with what we believe to be the best of those options.
While we don't look at it as a divorce, I can see why it does feel like splitting up of children. We are still considering and working through the methods of who will attend which event, and how those will be decided, but ultimately some friends that are very far apart will be seperated.
When Michigan anounced the districts, this was a common complaint at that time, and is still one of the chief gripes that comes from the district model. I will say though that from what I understand, old friends keep up the freindships that they want to work for, and many new stronger relationships have been formed by teams that are able to visit more frequently in those regions.
We at FIRST HQ do not honestly know everything that you mentors and teams do for us as there is so much done that goes un-recognized. Because of that, we will never be able to thank you enough. It is really heart wrenching to see any action we do cause so much pain as you and many others are experiencing. I love hearing that you talk to the teams that are your heroes. Before you leave this weekend, please talk to about 10 teams that it is their first time coming. Ask them about their experience and what they will be taking home. We know what we are doing is not popular among many of our greatest teams, but if you talk to a lot of those "almost didn't make it" teams, you will likely understand why we are doing what we are doing. This year Don Bossi went to 3 events every weekend and talked to as many teams as he could. Talking with all of those teams, I think we are making the tough, but right decision. With your support and help in the areas that we have some flexibility, I think we can make the 2 event format great, but I do know that some of you that will get to attend those events will miss seeing some of your friends. *I personally am glad to see that we no longer have our event the same weekend as the VEX World Championship so I can see some of our friends from IFI here at the event.

*I added this last statement for me as well as a few others that would love to hear that more frequently....

Garret

28-04-2015 11:45

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Thought this was slightly relevant, but at our Super Regional in Oakland, CA, our FTC team got to witness a homeless man pull a knife and start threatening people right outside the restaurant where we were at. Additionally right across the street from where this was going on there was another FTC team waiting to get into another restaurant. This all occured about 100-150ft outside of the hotel/venue where the tournament was at.

For some of our team members that was a very traumatic experience that turned that "championship" experience into a rather negative one as opposed to positive.

This experience has me very concerned about FIRST moving champs to a city that is supposed to be more dangerous that Oakland. The fact that just because they personally haven't experienced anything there is one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard (my personal opinion).

BrendanB

28-04-2015 12:18

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garret (Post 1477811)

This experience has me very concerned about FIRST moving champs to a city that is supposed to be more dangerous that Oakland. The fact that just because they personally haven't experienced anything there is one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard (my personal opinion).

As it has been mentioned before when hosting an event with 400+ FRC teams plus jrFLL, FLL, & FTC the list of possible venues and host cities start decreasing fast. Crime is common in cities. FIRST isn't intentionally booking venues in higher crime areas because they want to its because its the only places available that have the venue, hotel, food, airport, and public transportation available for teams to use. Start taking out these factors and the ability for FIRST to host the event and teams to attend becomes an issue.

Hopefully FIRST will step up and increase security more for our remaining time in St. Louis considering all of the reports of theft and nearby incidents and revisit the topic when we move to new cities. Detroit does have a bad reputation but if our friends from Michigan don't necessarily see it the same way let's take their word for it instead of jumping to conclusions. I don't see how the badge system helped this other than creating a headache for teams and more importantly spectators.

After watching the video I have a lot of concerns over how FIRST is handling the situation. I won't agree that many of the spectators in the room were as respectful as they could have been however FIRST did not handle this announcement or decision in a manner the community deserved. If they wanted a more positive outcome or reaction from the community they did a good job of encouraging the outcome they received. Even just having a moderator set the wrong tone with the attendees especially when he made the comment about remaining GP. I am concerned with the direction FIRST is moving in with regard to who is running the program and their involvement (or lack thereof) in FIRST programs and would disagree that just because you spoke to teams at XYZ events this year doesn't get you in touch with how the community feels with regard to where FIRST is going. I wouldn't hesitate to say that if the announcement were made before the competition season started the reactions from teams would have been very different.

As someone who has been a student & mentor in FLL and FRC I'm very puzzled as to why FRC needs to push for 25% championship representation whereas FLL is drastically underrepresented. It seemed the answer for FLL was to cut back on who qualified using a lottery system for State Championship while the answer for FRC is to just keep making the Championship bigger or in this case add a second.

This is disappointing to see not only the community potentially getting split but that the competition getting split. I think the beauty of FRC has been the balance between inspiration through a competition but now it looks clear that FIRST doesn't see it that way and would rather continue to hold on the current qualifications instead of having a true Championship.

I hope that FIRST will consider having a World Festival and a World Championship allowing more teams to move on to a higher level of play while still being able to crown a true World Champion.

Of course we can all hope for FIRST to push stronger in the next two years to bring more and more into the world of districts so a more even qualifying system is put in place to advance teams the right way. I'm sure many teams would agree their District Championships were more competitive than their divisions.

IKE	30-04-2015 08:43

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

As a follow on to my lengthy post about "empathy", I thought that this post I saw on Ian Curtis's FB page was a great article to share:
The Engineer's Lament
by Malcolm Gladwell (author of several amazing books).

In the article, he tells a famous engineering joke about a Preist, a Doctor, and an Engineer playing golf. They are held up by a group of golfers clearly struggling. They ask the range manager what is going on, and the manager explains they are a group of firefighters that were blinded fighting a fire not too long ago. The Preist says he will say a prayer for the firefighters. They Doctor says he will call up an optimologist friend to see if there is something she could do. The Engineer asks: "Why can't they play at night?"

In the article, it talks in part about some of the biggest recalls in auto history and how they were handled and mis-handled.

While we may find the best compromise of a given solution set, sometimes the lack of compassion or empathy can come across as out of touch. As many communication experts will tell you, it is often less about what you say, and more about how you say it.

Dan Petrovic

30-04-2015 13:29

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

While the town hall wasn't what I expected and while I don't think it was super productive, what's done is done and we need to move on.

One particular topic I'm interested in is the concept of allowing a few teams to choose which championship to go to. Which teams get to choose and how many? Will it be a lottery? Will it be by how you qualified (ie Chairman's award finalists, HoF, Legacy, and Rookie All-Star)?

Also, I have a feeling that Houston will be the more attractive option (warmer weather, less murdery than Detroit, likely attendance of 254 :rolleyes: ), so how will they balance that?

AndrewPospeshil

30-04-2015 19:19

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Thanks to 1640 for the video!

I'm glad that this meeting happened - it shows that FIRST is open to input from teams. The meeting seemed relatively unproductive - expected. Emotions are high, and the kind of people who would miss part of the day to attend are probably the more passionate ones about the issues at hand. A few (very, very rambling) thoughts:

The whole concern with Detroit as a venue is understandable but imo an overreaction. FIRST would not send thousands upon thousands of kids to a city if they believed it would be unsafe. Not to mention the city is demoing and rebuilding a huge portion of the area between downtown and midtown in the coming years, so I have confidence the city will not be as horrible as some seem to think it will be. If STL was good enough for FIRST's standards (which it had to be, evidently), then Detroit should be too.
The "0 alumni on the FIRST board" statement was pretty jarring to read/hear but I guess it makes sense. Let's figure someone has to be around, oh 30 years old to have the business experience required to be on the first board (just a rough estimate from a high schooler who doesn't know what he's talking about). That means that they would've competed from roughly 2000-2003. FIRST was a vastly different place back then. Even if they had wanted to hire young alumni onto their board, they would not be as reflective of today's FIRST community as alumni who have competed much more recently.
I think the main thing that a lot of people are still forgetting is that not every team has the same goal. Some just want to build a robot, compete at a regional (or 2 districts), and go home then learn from their experiences. Some teams want to win Einstein. There's nothing wrong with either. But FIRST is faced with an interesting dilemma: who do they lean towards? It's become obvious that they can't really cater to both kinds of teams - the program is just way too large. So do they create a model that helps mid- to low-level teams get a taste of the CMP experience? Or do they create a more exclusionary but ultimately more exciting model that pushes veteran powerhouses farther? This model also has the benefit of being more exciting for outsiders, but is less sustainable.
Which brings me to my next thought: team sustainability. After the 2CMP announcement, many veteran teams, members, and mentors were outraged. Some claimed that they would just leave FIRST as they saw that the program was just no longer desirable to them. However, the much less often heard story is the rookie teams who don't have the resources or more importantly the drive to continue for subsequent years. They didn't advance to any level of competition above the minimum, so a lot of people would just give up. Now there are rookie teams who would use this only as motivation to get better and make DCMP or CMP, but I couldn't tell you how many rookies fall into either category. FIRST kind of needs to decide which group they think is more advantageous to aid - the established veterans, who are the cornerstones of their communities, role models for rookies, and even mentors? Or do they support rookie teams looking for just a taste of victory, who might never win Einstein but just want to travel outside their state and see robots from all across the world?

Tom Line

30-04-2015 20:17

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garret (Post 1477811)

I understand your concern. In recent years however, Detroit has hosted numerous MLB playoff games, NFL games, NHL playoff games, a Superbowl, an MLB allstar game, the world's most attended autoshow (yearly), a yearly Thanksgiving Day Parade, NCAA Basketball, Hockey, and Football bowl games.

Numbers can be scary things - especially since the news likes to ignore them. Claiming Detroit is the worst in the country is far more attention grabbing than saying "Detroit has 45 murders per 100,000 people, while New Orleans has 41, Newark has 40, St. Louis has 37, and Baltimore has 37." A whopping difference of .008%.

If you get into comparitive statistics between other things that might kill you, it gets even less scary. If you've been to St. Louis, you've been to Detroit.

Tom Line

30-04-2015 20:18

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewPospeshil (Post 1479051)

The whole concern with Detroit as a venue is understandable but imo an overreaction. FIRST would not send thousands upon thousands of kids to a city if they believed it would be unsafe. Not to mention the city is demoing and rebuilding a huge portion of the area between downtown and midtown in the coming years, so I have confidence the city will not be as horrible as some seem to think it will be. If STL was good enough for FIRST's standards (which it had to be, evidently), then Detroit should be too.
The "0 alumni on the FIRST board" statement was pretty jarring to read/hear but I guess it makes sense. Let's figure someone has to be around, oh 30 years old to have the business experience required to be on the first board (just a rough estimate from a high schooler who doesn't know what he's talking about). That means that they would've competed from roughly 2000-2003. FIRST was a vastly different place back then. Even if they had wanted to hire young alumni onto their board, they would not be as reflective of today's FIRST community as alumni who have competed much more recently.
I think the main thing that a lot of people are still forgetting is that not every team has the same goal. Some just want to build a robot, compete at a regional (or 2 districts), and go home then learn from their experiences. Some teams want to win Einstein. There's nothing wrong with either. But FIRST is faced with an interesting dilemma: who do they lean towards? It's become obvious that they can't really cater to both kinds of teams - the program is just way too large. So do they create a model that helps mid- to low-level teams get a taste of the CMP experience? Or do they create a more exclusionary but ultimately more exciting model that pushes veteran powerhouses farther? This model also has the benefit of being more exciting for outsiders, but is less sustainable.
Which brings me to my next thought: team sustainability. After the 2CMP announcement, many veteran teams, members, and mentors were outraged. Some claimed that they would just leave FIRST as they saw that the program was just no longer desirable to them. However, the much less often heard story is the rookie teams who don't have the resources or more importantly the drive to continue for subsequent years. They didn't advance to any level of competition above the minimum, so a lot of people would just give up. Now there are rookie teams who would use this only as motivation to get better and make DCMP or CMP, but I couldn't tell you how many rookies fall into either category. FIRST kind of needs to decide which group they think is more advantageous to aid - the established veterans, who are the cornerstones of their communities, role models for rookies, and even mentors? Or do they support rookie teams looking for just a taste of victory, who might never win Einstein but just want to travel outside their state and see robots from all across the world?

I wonder at exactly what level this decision was made. Did it really go to the executive board? Or was it made at a level a little more tuned-in to FIRST teams?

EricDrost

30-04-2015 20:37

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewPospeshil (Post 1479051)

So do they create a model that helps mid- to low-level teams get a taste of the CMP experience? Or do they create a more exclusionary but ultimately more exciting model that pushes veteran powerhouses farther? This model also has the benefit of being more exciting for outsiders, but is less sustainable.

Do you have any evidence of this? FiM seems to have a lot of success with the second model. More than the "qualify regional winners and waitlist lottery the rest" model does.

dag0620

30-04-2015 20:48

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1479070)

I wonder at exactly what level this decision was made. Did it really go to the executive board? Or was it made at a level a little more tuned-in to FIRST teams?

I'm sure a decision of this size, impact, and scope most likely made it to the level of The Board of Directors. If on the off chance it didn't go that high, the call was certainly made at the level of the President of FIRST.

David Lame

30-04-2015 22:23

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by dag0620 (Post 1479081)

I'm certain that it went up that high.

The real question is how far down did it go? Did they float this idea to anyone on actual teams?

Libby K

01-05-2015 09:31

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Lame (Post 1479118)

I'm certain that it went up that high.

The real question is how far down did it go? Did they float this idea to anyone on actual teams?

It's become pretty clear that they didn't.

Even with Don's defense of 'We can't poll several thousand people about this' (except that you can, and did after the fact) ... FIRST has quite a few 'focus groups' to draw opinions from. WFA's, the Hall of Fame... These are groups and individuals with a good read on the pulse of the FIRST community. Asking them would have made it pretty easy to figure out how the broader group would feel about something before signing a contract.

Steven Donow

01-05-2015 09:42

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libby K (Post 1479202)

Not to mention that (and this is something that I now regret not asking at the town hall meeting) nothing seemed to prevent FIRST from saying, "We are looking into holding two geographically-locked championship events; thoughts?". That's the real kicker for me. We knew when FIRST renewed their contract with STL a few years that they were looking at other cities (IIRC the list was STL, Indianapolis, and Orlando; someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this but I remember a blog post from Frank on it), so what stopped them from proposing the idea of two championships to the community? Then proposals like the World Festival/World Championship could have come up earlier and be addressed during the town hall*.

*That's the one major thing I gathered from the meeting, and the major point that angered me. The meeting clearly showed that FIRST has absolutely zero indication of even considering community input in doing anything other than two geographically locked championships.

BrendanB

01-05-2015 10:14

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Donow (Post 1479205)

I think its safe to say they knew the reaction from FRC participants and figured it was easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. Any attempt to gather feedback from teams and the community at this stage is a bad attempt to make things right. Best case scenario they consider options into making a World Festival and a World Championship however in my opinion FIRST is trying to steer away from the competitive side of robots so they don't lose the culture they want to see. Worst case they continue forward and they employ the strategy of if you don't like it quit because what you want isn't what we are about. Sadly I feel like this is where they are headed.

I think its in poor taste to keep calling it a championship(s) and instead we need to call them a World Festival. If I were an executive showing up in Houston or Detroit to see the championship I'd be concerned for the rest of FRC if I was seeing some of the teams on the field that I am. I feel like I'm one of the few who can say that considering I competed with one of those robots that shouldn't have been there. Its really sad for teams in districts because we know our DCMPs have a better field of competitors than our divisions and splitting the pool into 8 divisions this year made for some shallow divisions.

FIRST needs to stop using the waitlist at the Championship. Even if more district systems overtake regionals they will still fill all of these vacant slots with waitlisted teams. I'm curious if waitlisted teams this year kept late qualifying teams from attending the championship because finding transportation and hotel was impossible while the waitlisted teams were able to book early.

wilsonmw04

01-05-2015 10:28

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 1479214)

Its really sad for teams in districts because we know our DCMPs have a better field of competitors than our divisions and splitting the pool into 8 divisions this year made for some shallow divisions.

FIRST needs to stop using the waitlist at the Championship. Even if more district systems overtake regionals they will still fill all of these vacant slots with waitlisted teams.

This would make perfect sense if the goal is to have the best robot performance competition possible. I think that have stated that was not their goal when they made this decision.

If you paid attention attention to what Dean and Woodie have been saying for the past 5-10 years you could have seen something like this coming. They consistently said, "it's not about the robot. It is just the vehicle. Take the good from the sports model but reject the negative side that comes with it." They (The board) are devaluing winning. I know that is going to rub some folks the wrong way. This move makes complete sense considering the goals they have set forth.

Jared Russell

01-05-2015 10:33

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1479221)

They (The board) are devaluing winning.

More precisely, they are devaluing competition. Most teams don't win, but all teams compete. A high level of competition is (IMO) one of the most powerful tools of inspiration that FRC has.

Hallry

01-05-2015 10:34

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

FIRST has released their official recording, the official transcript, and the presentation slides from the town hall meeting.

PayneTrain

01-05-2015 11:18

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1479221)

I know we will never see eye-to-eye on this, but it's not all about winning for 422 (look at our track record if you don't believe me!). However, I think a key component of FRC is the available pursuit of it. There are bad apples that can spoil this key component: the hyper-competitive veterans that can intentionally or inadvertently intimidate weaker teams. That's not a great tool for inspiration. Yet when we set our 10 year goal my senior year to be one of the best teams in FIRST by 2022, that didn't mean we had to be one of those teams. The pursuit of that kind of goal though gets people on and around the team to focus on this idea of accomplishment actively while the work we put into that goal makes the program better (more resources, better documentation, happier students, more satisfied mentors, more engaged school).

Looking past that, the move doesn't make a lot of sense when you pair it up with other decisions the organization is making. Why are we making games focused on robots that require a lot of engineering? Why are we making the Chairman's Award even more competitive than winning an event with the robot? Why are we making tiers at lower levels of competition but dismissing making higher levels of competition? Maybe I'm overreaching but it feels like we are the runner in QWOP and the FIRST Board is pressing all the keys at once to see what happens.

wilsonmw04

01-05-2015 11:42

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1479224)

More precisely, they are devaluing competition. Most teams don't win, but all teams compete. A high level of competition is (IMO) one of the most powerful tools of inspiration that FRC has.

That's where you and I disagree. There are more winners since there will be a set of winners at each event. More people competing means more teams exposed and a great mix of teams exposed. This will mean that the over all level of competition will go down. I think they understood that when they made the change. Not sure how 25% of teams is "all teams" competing.

I see this as FIRST going back to its roots. This will be closer to what FIRST was like in its first few years.

BrendanB

01-05-2015 11:57

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1479221)

All true and yes I've been listening to the Dean speeches for a long time (since 2003) although we haven't seen much of him up here in New England once we moved to Districts.

I'd be interested to hear their view on the district model which is a system that is results oriented. If your robot doesn't have the performance behind your awards you don't compete with it at your District Championship (minus the Chairmans winners they bring their robots but Engineering Inspiration and Rookie All-Star only let's you present and doesn't auto qualify your robot for the DCMP). I understand how it tackles the issue of needing to add so many regionals with 6 qualifying spots per event but at the same time it runs on a system that FIRST doesn't seem to agree with based off of their thinking with two Championships.

I think FIRST undervalues how well the competitive aspect of FRC mixed with Gracious Professionalism adds to their mission yet it seems like whenever we talk about the highest levels of competition it seems like they feel its against their mission. As it has been said before there will always be the occasional bad apples just like like in sports there are the happy go lucky people who think everyone is a winner and its all about the love of the game while the more negative side is always looking to be the top no matter what.

As we can see this is the downside of having FIRST's board and others at the top running the organization who have no experience with running or participating on a team in FIRST.

wilsonmw04

01-05-2015 11:58

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1479243)

I'm not sure I can disagree with anything you posted here. I had to ask my student what QWOP was, but besides that, Will, I think you will find that you and I agree far more often than we will disagree. The Pursuit is still there. What is boils down to me personally is that this change does not affect anything my team is doing or will do in the future. We still have many goals to reach. The only thing that has changed, as of today, is geography. Change is hard. I HATE change. But one thing I learned a long time ago is that change is going to happen whether I like it or not.

Rachel Lim

01-05-2015 13:29

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1479225)

FIRST has released their official recording, the official transcript, and the presentation slides from the town hall meeting.

Thanks for the links, and to 1640 for the video. After going through both a few times now (I found the transcript easier to read, but the video conveyed the emotions better), these are my final thoughts on the subject, in no particular order:

1. The transcript could at least have the correct spelling of the names of the people asking questions... (And the "Female:" vs "[name]:" was very strange)

2. The whole discussion sort of reminds me of this conversation:
"No, you can't go to the lab, you have to do your homework."
"But..."
"No arguing, you're not going."
In that situation we can both understand that my mom is trying to do what is best for me. But she's not the one in high school, and thus can't always understand what I'm trying to say--instead she has to draw on what happened the last time we had this argument, what the results were, or what she thinks will happen. The arguments where we're able to discuss how much work I have left, or when I could do it instead, always go much more nicely than those where she just says no. In the end though, I can't do anything about it, and being confrontational about it doesn't help.

That analogy, which got a bit more confusing than I intended, was supposed to lead to this: I don't think FIRST really understands what it is like to be on a team (or at least what they said doesn't make it sound like they do), but I also don't think they know that they don't. You don't know what you're missing unless you had it in the first place.

3. If I had to summarize FIRST's view vs CD*'s view:
FIRST: If there are two championships, more teams will get the experience.
CD: If there are two championships, no team will get the true experience.
FIRST: By having more winners, more teams will get to be winners, and they will push harder to be winners.
CD: By having more winners, no team will be a true winner, and they have nothing to push towards.

* I'm still hesitant to say this is what most teams think, because I honestly have no idea what the majority of average / below average (the teams that struggle just to exist, can't afford to attend even if they get on through the waitlist, etc.) think, so instead I'll just call this "CD." This is obviously a very simplified / somewhat extreme view, but I think it represents most of what I've heard.

jman4747

01-05-2015 16:23

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 1479249)

As we can see this is the downside of having FIRST's board and others at the top running the organization who have no experience with running or participating on a team in FIRST.

Is that entirely fair? The reverse could be claimed in that most of us haven't run a "USFIRST" before.

Also several of the challenges faced by FRC teams aren't exclusive to us. Check out who is on the BOD. Leading a team, dealing with people, handling money. They have and do run some very large organizations so I figure they've dealt with similar challenges to us before.

In addition I doubt it was only the BOD who worked to research and planed it.

Even the WFA/DL advising thing has a slight problem in that they also may represent a bias in looking at where FIRST should go vs a lot of other participants thus you may not gain much either way.

BrendanB

01-05-2015 16:43

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by jman4747 (Post 1479326)

Was it a strong statement? Yes. There is a lot about running USFIRST that I do not know and probably will never know. FIRST is a program run mostly by volunteers whose primary mission is to introduce kids from K-12 to STEM and change the culture using their programs run by volunteers. For the most part the mission of FIRST is carried out by mentors and volunteers like you and me who run teams and help organize/volunteer at events. Without us and without (BOD/HQ) FIRST wouldn't happen. While moving to two championships has implications on FIRST is primarily impacts the teams, the participants, and the students.

My point (and one that many others have made included at the town hall) is how is the BOD being advised/informed of what is best for FIRST if they haven't participated in FIRST programs or at least have representation from individuals who have. FIRST is old enough that even some of first participants in the 90s are well into their adult careers that they can serve in an advisory position along with a ton of mentors who have been involved for 20+ years.

Change is never an easy thing and its going to happen. We've always had change over the years and this to a degree is a big one considering the impacts it has on the community of splitting teams up even more so than districts. It also sets a tone for where FIRST is going to take FRC in terms of where the balance of making the World Championship a competitive event as a Championship vs an event where the goal is to get as many teams to attend to inspire them (still an admirable goal). Some of us are very interested in why FIRST is making these big decisions without consulting the community (past or present). While I still wouldn't be entirely thrilled, if the announcement had been made along with an explanation that prior FIRST participants including WFA winners, HOF teams, and/or other FIRST participants were involved in coming up with this plan it would have been received a little better.

Just some thoughts.

MikeE

01-05-2015 17:26

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

I was busy at the Championships so finally got to watch the video of the Town Hall today. After reading this thread I was honestly surprised how cordial it was given the level of passion around the topic. Anything approaching disrespect from the stage was coming from the moderator more than the panel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1479224)

More precisely, they are devaluing competition. Most teams don't win, but all teams compete. A high level of competition is (IMO) one of the most powerful tools of inspiration that FRC has.

As a thought experiment let's say that in 2017 with half the geographic coverage we degrade the competition to "only" the level of the 2015 Einstein semi-finals. For me, and I suspect most attendees, this would be just as inspirational as the current championship model.
I agree that philosophically many know there are awesome teams who are not appearing on Einstein, but that's always true due to the vagaries of competition advancement.

My primary objection to the 2 Championship model is similar to Sandra's, although I don't think that "divorce" is a good analogy.
Splitting World Championship does damage the sense of FRC as a single global community with a common set of goals. The Championship event was the opportunity to come together and celebrate those goals with others from across the community and this just won't happen after 2016.

David Lame

01-05-2015 18:51

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libby K (Post 1479202)

I would really like to think you are wrong. I'm pretty new around here, and I would like to be positive about things.

I guess I would just like to see some evidence that they understood the down side of their decision, and they just felt that the positives outweigh the negatives. As it is, it seems like they didn't even realize there was any significant negative, and if you are right about their decision making process, the reason they didn't understand would be that they didn't think it was worth the effort to find out. I wonder if they understand a post like Rachel's post above.

jman4747

01-05-2015 19:07

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

For refrence here are your FIRST BOD members. Again I think we should give them a little more of a chance than none at all.

Sheri S. McCoy - Co-Chair; Chief Executive Officer & Director, Avon Products, Inc.

Robert M. Tuttle - Co-Chair; General Partner, 1848 Associates

John E. Abele - Vice Chair; Founding Chairman, Retired, Boston Scientific Corporation

Walter P. Havenstein - Vice Chair; Chief Executive Officer, Retired, Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC)

Dean L. Kamen - Founder; President, DEKA Research & Development Corporation

Donald E. Bossi - Secretary; President, FIRST

Ursula M. Burns - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer, Xerox Corporation

Dr. Paul E. Jacobs - Executive Chairman of the Board, Qualcomm Incorporated

Muhtar Kent - Chairman of the Board & Chief Executive Officer, Coca-Cola Company

John H. Lynch - Former Governor of the State of New Hampshire

Scott McKay - Chief Information Officer & Senior Vice President, Genworth Financial

Dennis A. Muilenburg - Vice Chairman, President & Chief Operating Officer, The Boeing Company

Kelly Ortberg - Chief Executive Officer & President, Rockwell Collins

Robert L. Parkinson, Jr. - Chairman & Chief Executive Officer, Baxter International Inc.

Steve Sanghi - President, Chief Executive Officer & Chairman, Microchip Technology, Inc.

Myron E. Ullman, III - Chief Executive Officer & Director, JCPenney

BrendanB

01-05-2015 19:36

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by jman4747 (Post 1479376)

It is an amazing resume of folks in the program! I hope it didn't sound like my comments were attempting to discredit these individuals that was far from the truth. :)

I don't think anyone can argue with the backgrounds these individuals have combined with their experience and connections they have brought to the table. I wouldn't argue that they aren't doing their best for FIRST.

But FIRST isn't a fortune 500 company or have shares traded on Wall Street. Its a non-profit run by people who view this as their second family and I'm sure for many it feels like their primary family. Its not easy when at the highest level they are going to split it down the middle and send one half of the family reunion to one destination and the other half to another. There are definitely financial implications with either plan (two championships or one) but we aren't talking about decisions that would put FIRST out of business necessarily.

I'm sure the BOD gets the mission of FIRST but do they really get what FIRST (you, me, and the teams) are all about?

Just a little food for thought.

wilsonmw04

01-05-2015 19:55

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 1479381)

I'm sure the BOD gets the mission of FIRST but do they really get what FIRST (you, me, and the teams) are all about?

Interesting statement. Shouldn't they be the same thing?

Some food for thought.

BrendanB

01-05-2015 20:18

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1479387)

Interesting statement. Shouldn't they be the same thing?

Some food for thought.

Another badly worded sentence on my part. Its been a long week. :o

Its one thing to be behind a mission statement. Its another to be "in the trenches" so to speak for months out of the year as a student and as a mentor.

Knufire

01-05-2015 20:21

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1479387)

Interesting statement. Shouldn't they be the same thing?

Some food for thought.

Not necessarily. Every team has the freedom to choose their own path. I don't think they should be penalized because that isn't the same path HQ chooses.

PayneTrain

01-05-2015 20:41

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 1479381)

I'm sure the BOD gets the mission of FIRST but do they really get what FIRST (you, me, and the teams) are all about?

Just a little food for thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1479387)

Interesting statement. Shouldn't they be the same thing?

Some food for thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knufire (Post 1479390)

Not necessarily. Every team has the freedom to choose their own path. I don't think they should be penalized because that isn't the same path HQ chooses.

The interesting thing about FIRST now is that it's so big the meaning of it is so different depending on who you ask. The championshplit is an example where the meaning of FIRST to the board of directors has a wide gap to traverse before it gets to people who oppose the move. The mission and the vision are tools to guide anyone at any level or division of the intertwining organization, but if someone asked me what FIRST meant to me, I wouldn't recite the mission and vision.

gblake

01-05-2015 21:57

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Not necessarily. Every team has the freedom to choose their own path. I don't think they should be penalized because that isn't the same path HQ chooses.

That is an odd collection of sentences. Odd because I think what they convey is that the program should change its plans to align them with participants who chose to diverge from the program's core values.

Either that, or your use of "penalized" is specious.

I don't think the program is penalizing anyone. Maybe groups who choose to diverge from the program's path are be penalizing themselves?

To everyone who might feel like this decision somehow penalizes their group or wrongs their group, or makes their group a victim of some sort of injustice; I have to echo what WilsonM wrote earlier...

Haven't you been listening to what the FIRST elders have said for years and years (listening to the fundamentals of what they said - not just cherry-picking marketing slogans)? If your group isn't aligned with the vision that they have outlined, then your group is choosing to be out-of-step with the program.

Choosing to be out-of-step is fine, but try not to be shocked or outraged when/if it bites you in the backside occasionally.

Blake
PS: FIRST the non-profit business might sometimes pick controversial ways to implement its mission/vision, but I don't think it has purposefully or accidentally stepped away from it with the Championshplit decision.

Fusion_Clint

01-05-2015 23:08

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by jman4747 (Post 1479376)

People with this pedigree should know how to manage change, I guarantee they do a much better job of change management in their own companies.

The way this split happened is the worst possible way of managing change; at the very least they should have shown the need for the change, explained how the change will benefit the stakeholders, and outline the details of the change.

What we got was: the change, a few details, we're listening, it is happening, stop complaining your wrong.

These are my views, not those of my team.

aldaeron

02-05-2015 16:11

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

After watching this, I think there is plenty of disappointment to go around

Mentors/Active CD folks

It should have been no surprise that there was a moderator, given the mob that had already assembled on CD prior to Champs. FIRST has the internet too.
Go and re-watch the video and listen to how your “questions” sound. I asked non-FIRST people to listen and they heard the same thing I did: low volume screaming and a lot of loaded questions. I have been reading many of your posts for years and lost so much respect for you all in 30 minutes. I doubt you behave this way with your teams or at work. There was an opportunity to approach this change and offer constructive input and set a good example for the students (even if it fell on deaf ears) that you squandered. Remember what an influential group you are to thousands of students.
Any change is going to be painful and it’s fair to be upset that the direction the program is going is not aligned with the direction you feel the program should take. I do think the message of “more than robots” has been clear for many years now. To me this also implied "more that winners".
Give FIRST some credit. They have delivered an amazing experience to a ton of students for over 20 years. They don’t try to do anything haphazardly and clearly do weigh pros and cons. Their board is filled with smart and very capable people.
I hope all the threats of quitting on some of the initial threads were just anger and shock. Please don’t quit. We love you. We need you. We can make this work.

FIRST

Teams are some of the best problem solvers in the world. We break your game rules in less than a week despite your best efforts. We're great at constraint based design. Explain the goals (more students getting a Championship experience, reducing costs, etc) and the constraints (available places where such a large event can be held, etc). We can help you solve complex problems! After all, we’re rocket scientists =)
What about 2 back to back tourneys in STL (Mon - Wed) then (Thu - Sat)? Two 400 team events in one central location (this does not address the cost reduction concept very well). I’m sure there would be hundreds of ideas that CD could hone down in a few days given goals and constraints.
Utilize the HoF or WFA winners. You have identified them as the role models for FIRST for many years at every single competition I have ever been to (FRC, FTC, FLL). They are touted as teams and individuals who not only understand the mission and ideals of FIRST, but live them every day. If you really thought they were the role models you have represented them as, you would have included their input in this important decision. Shame on you for not talking to a single one of them. Put them under NDA if you have to (you do this every year for pre-release field parts for kickoff).
There is going to be some frustration with any change, which I believe you prepared for and are ignoring as the community starts to deal with the change. That does not mean all ideas expressed are bad ones (even if the questions are loaded or the tone is impolite).
We're struggling with the reality of "more than robots". Help us out.

I am still gathering feedback from my team and my personal thoughts about the change. Overall I was not surprised by the change given the mission statement that has been consistent for many years. I do think there was a better solution, which is now lost since contracts have been signed. I am certain the process for making and communicating the change to championships could have been handled much better.

I’m not from a team that has the ability to make it to the highest level of the competition, so please help me understand why having 2 CA/WF winners is so terrible? There seem like many worthy teams and mentors. As far as the competition is concerned, it appears that the randomizer setting various teams on various fields has a large effect on who wins Einstein. Put two really high scoring and compatible teams together on the same field and it can be a run away.

-matto-

Abhishek R

02-05-2015 16:39

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by aldaeron (Post 1479486)

After watching this, I think there is plenty of disappointment to go around

Mentors/Active CD folks

It should have been no surprise that there was a moderator, given the mob that had already assembled on CD prior to Champs. FIRST has the internet too.
Go and re-watch the video and listen to how your “questions” sound. I asked non-FIRST people to listen and they heard the same thing I did: low volume screaming and a lot of loaded questions. I have been reading many of your posts for years and lost so much respect for you all in 30 minutes. I doubt you behave this way with your teams or at work. There was an opportunity to approach this change and offer constructive input and set a good example for the students (even if it fell on deaf ears) that you squandered. Remember what an influential group you are to thousands of students.
Any change is going to be painful and it’s fair to be upset that the direction the program is going is not aligned with the direction you feel the program should take. I do think the message of “more than robots” has been clear for many years now. To me this also implied "more that winners".
Give FIRST some credit. They have delivered an amazing experience to a ton of students for over 20 years. They don’t try to do anything haphazardly and clearly do weigh pros and cons. Their board is filled with smart and very capable people.
I hope all the threats of quitting on some of the initial threads were just anger and shock. Please don’t quit. We love you. We need you. We can make this work.

FIRST

Teams are some of the best problem solvers in the world. We break your game rules in less than a week despite your best efforts. We're great at constraint based design. Explain the goals (more students getting a Championship experience, reducing costs, etc) and the constraints (available places where such a large event can be held, etc). We can help you solve complex problems! After all, we’re rocket scientists =)
What about 2 back to back tourneys in STL (Mon - Wed) then (Thu - Sat)? Two 400 team events in one central location (this does not address the cost reduction concept very well). I’m sure there would be hundreds of ideas that CD could hone down in a few days given goals and constraints.
Utilize the HoF or WFA winners. You have identified them as the role models for FIRST for many years at every single competition I have ever been to (FRC, FTC, FLL). They are touted as teams and individuals who not only understand the mission and ideals of FIRST, but live them every day. If you really thought they were the role models you have represented them as, you would have included their input in this important decision. Shame on you for not talking to a single one of them. Put them under NDA if you have to (you do this every year for pre-release field parts for kickoff).
There is going to be some frustration with any change, which I believe you prepared for and are ignoring as the community starts to deal with the change. That does not mean all ideas expressed are bad ones (even if the questions are loaded or the tone is impolite).
We're struggling with the reality of "more than robots". Help us out.

I agree with your entire post.

To address your last part, in my opinion, I don't think that's a problem. We have so many deserving teams and mentors of their respective awards, and I think it'll be great to bring them recognition faster.

What I'm disappointed with is that I'll miss out on seeing half the great teams and robots from around the world. Does this mean I'm less motivated to be the best? No, myself and my team will try just as hard to achieve our goal of being the best we can be. Does it mean I'll leave FIRST? Not at all, this is such an amazing program.

I'm just a bit upset that this was the solution. I'm still not convinced there wasn't a better option that didn't require a split in the Championship event.

David Lame

02-05-2015 23:52

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 1479397)

PS: FIRST the non-profit business might sometimes pick controversial ways to implement its mission/vision, but I don't think it has purposefully or accidentally stepped away from it with the Championshplit decision.

They certainly didn't do it purposefully. Did they do it at all? It's difficult to say, at least until 2017.

So why do we write here at all? What's done is done. There are certain elements that are set in stone and cannot be changed. What good does talking about it online do? I can't speak for others, but for me, I think the leadership is missing something important, and I hope that maybe I'll say something that gets passed on to someone else, and eventually makes its way to the leadership and that makes the little light bulb go on for them.

I say that they are missing something because I have seen three attempts to communicate with the First community about this decision. There was the announcement itself, there was the town hall presentation and discussion, and there was the post-announcement survey. In my opinion, all three of them demonstrated that they didn't understand their audience. All three of those communication attempts showed a complete misunderstanding of how their communication attempts would be perceived.

With that in mind, I think that I have a different way of explaining things that might help one side see the other side's point of view. There are more than two sides, but the biggest general groupings are people who absolutely hate the split, and people who think it doesn't really matter, and that people should embrace the positives of the split plan. People in each general group post here, but it doesn't seem like either side is doing much in the way of convincing. Why not?

In my opinion, what we have here is a case of rationalism versus emotion. The primary arguments for the split are highly rational. They deal with numbers of teams who can participate, and the costs for each team. They could be shown on a spreadsheet.

The anti-split crowd's arguments are frequently emotional. The most common arguments are either that they want to gather all of the best robots in one place, or that there cannot be two world championships, by definition, and that somehow that's important. They sometimes try to argue beyond that, to rationalize their arguments, using the literal meaning of that word. It doesn't often work. The rationalized arguments often ring hollow.

You might think that, as engineers, we should embrace the logical over the emotional. I think that is completely wrong. We use the word "inspiration" a lot. It's in our name. Inspiration is an emotional reaction. The leadership needs to understand the emotional nature of the reaction, and play off of that. Never, ever, dismiss it as irrelevant. In understanding those emotions lies the key to First's continued success.

Think about this. First is not the only student robot competition in the world. There are others. Some have thousands of participants and a global reach. Rationally, the others are just as good as First. However, they aren't as successful. I think that's because there is something about a First event that is highly emotional. Something about the environment we have created taps into some really primal emotions in a way that appeals to us in a big way. Whether students, alumni, or mentors, we want to keep coming back and be a part of it. There is more screaming, cheering, and crying at our events than there are at those other events, because there's something about our events that seem more important.

That's enough for the moment, but I think if you want to understand why there was so much hostility toward the split championship model, first understand the emotional appeal of the phrase "world championship". After understanding those arguments, you may still conclude that the leadership's plan for two season finale events is better than a single event, but you will understand why some people don't see it that way.

wilsonmw04

03-05-2015 00:07

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Some folks might leave because of this, but i highly doubt it. There are several true robot competitions out there.

gblake

03-05-2015 02:33

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Lame (Post 1479575)

Think about this. First is not the only student robot competition in the world. There are others. Some have thousands of participants and a global reach. Rationally, the others are just as good as First. However, they aren't as successful.

Hmmmm, I did think about it, and... I disagree.

My rational and emotional reaction is, "Says who???".

Don't drink too much Kool-Aid. A little is OK, and goes a long way. Too much isn't healthy.

Sorry for the minor sidetrack everyone - You may now return to discussing the Town Hall Meeting Video, if you care to.

Blake

David Lame

03-05-2015 10:28

Re: Town Hall Meeting Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 1479599)

My comparison of First versus other robotics competitions might have been tainted by my location in Michigan. We're pretty First-centric around here.

I did a little bit of google-style research in response to your post, and may have underestimated one of those "other" competitions.

But the point remains the same. There are several robotics competitions in the world. The ones that have the greatest appeal will be the ones that tap into the emotional responses of the participants. Looking at the presentation made by First leadership at the town hall, and seeing their answers to questions posed, it seems to me that the leadership has some gaps in their understanding.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:41.

Page 1 of 2

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page