Robots vs. Humans
 

Every year I often wonder could elite teams beat humans in the game? Safety aside I think humans could win the majority of the time. Only ones in my time that I think robots could win would be Ultimate Ascent (full court shooters give robot advantage, and Logomotion just based on need to be tall)

Well one advantage this this years game is the lack of defense and alliances being seperated. Id love to see some offseason events in which the game was played with 3 robots vs 3 humans. Humans can bring their own canbuglers and even attempt to win that battle. I think it would be very entertaining and possibly a pretty close match.

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

We were having the same debate on our team recently too, we also thought this was one of the first times that robots would beat humans, there is no possible way any human could be fast enough to grab the center cans from a bot.

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

Ha that would be interesting. I actually think robots would win this one because people can only really carry one or two totes at a time and it would be hard to cap six stacks, plus they could only grab one can at a time for canburgling.

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

That was actually something I liked about this game, the robots can't be easily beaten by humans. I know I would have trouble carrying around a stack of 6 + container.

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All i can see is our last year tank breaking bones like it breaks walls :yikes:

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I think that humans could probably win 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2014. 2013 would be close, and I think the best robots could easily win this year.

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You realize 2014 is just basically a distorted version of regular sports, right? No chance that robots would win Aerial Assist, especially considering the fact that humans can essentially dunk the ball for a high goal and gaining the points from a catch over the truss would be simple rather than extremely rare.

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

Sorry I fixed it: 2014 and 2015 should be switched.

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Are the robots allowed to play contact defense? :rolleyes:

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That's what I call Aerial Assault :cool:

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Do humans have to follow the size and weight limits?

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We've considered this one extensively:

2015 - Robots win. Humans lose canburglar battles and can't carry many big, heavy game pieces at once.

2014 - Robots win. Humans are good at catching but have fragile ankles.

2013 - Humans win (maybe). Humans have no problem with the pyramid, but can't throw frisbees as fast or accurately as good robots.

2012 - Humans win. Humans can balance and shoot baskets no problem.

2011 - Robots win. Humans are short and lack minibots.

2010 - Humans win. Humans can control a soccer ball.

2009 - Robots win. Humans can't store many game pieces or easily pull a trailer.

2008 - Humans win. A human can run around the track and throw the trackball quickly.

I don't know enough about older games to evaluate human performance.

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I agree with all but 2014.

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I doubt any human could defeat 71 in 2002, any of the tall stackers from 2005, 148 from 2008 (In laps anyways), or any of the top teams from 2009.

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A few people and myself were actually talking about something along these lines a few days ago. Our idea was basically humans vs robots but with humans trying their hardest to take down and reset stacks/the field before a match was over. Noodles would be caught mid-air or they score.

While our idea was more of an "ultimate field reset" than humans vs robots stacking, either one still seems incredibly fun.

Wanted to add: you can DEFINITELY pick up a 5-stack and at least push a 6-stack. While neither is advisable, it can happen pretty easily if you're determined to not make two trips back to the field!

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At first I would have said humans for 2014. Humans would break many bones though so I have to agree.

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This would a fantastic match to see at various off-season events. Just remember your safety glasses. One question though, would humans be allowed to catch thrown litter and throw it back?

Either way, I feel that humans would win due to speed. 3 humans could work together to make a capped 6 stack at a time in under 10 seconds. That's 13 stacks.

Off topic: From my experience to add to The President of the Universe's post

2005: Robots win. Humans would have trouble capping large stacks, especially the center goal

2004: Humans win. Hanging would be a problem for humans, unless you got some tall people. Capping would be simple for a human to do but herding would be more difficult. Since humans players were the primary scorers any way, humans have the advantage.

2003: Humans would win, because they could make a stack and protect it fairly easily. The king-of-the-hill though, I want to say humans but there were some powerful robots with low CoGs in that game.

2002: Humans by far...unless they're up against 71, then the Beast would take it.

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2015 would actually be pretty close. It shouldn't be that difficult for humans to score every tote on the field during the match so they would still be able to put up massive scores even if robots got all 4 cans every match.

20 + 8 + 4 = 32 auto points should be really easy to do for humans
3 cans + 18 totes +3 noodles = 3 x 42 = 126 points also relatively easy to do for humans
52 remaining totes = 104 points humans should be able to consistently get all the totes on the field scored including upside down and totes on the step
a good noodle thrower should be able to score 5 of the seven remaining noodles = 20 points
Total = 282 points scored by humans consistently which so far would beat most robot alliances if multiple matches where played

If someone is willing to sacrifice their body and is insanely quick a person may be able to win a can which would then pretty much guarantee victory for humans.

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If it's full contact I think robots may take it every year. No way in heck I'm getting in front of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThRNXECDS2o

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However, I bet some humans would run towards a stack as the time ran out so they would drift into it and knock it down;)

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Whats interesting is how differently the humans would play the game than the robots each year.

2015: Humans would likely build stacks, then cap them unlike most teams in 2015 who build a stack underneath a container.

2014: Humans would often opt for truss/catch maneuvers instead of trussing to HP, and they would finish from up close unlike many other robots.

2013: Humans would be able to basically dunk 4 discs into the 2-pt goal easily, and some would be able to do the same for the 3-pt goal. Humans could easily climb the pyramid and dump colored discs, as well as block the robot's full-court shooters with ease.

2012: Humans would dunk, but balancing might be hard for three humans, as all three would be constantly moving their body weight around.

2011: Humans don't have minibots, but could otherwise easily fill up all scoring slots

2010: Humans would crush at this game, and could hang from or climb onto the tunnels with ease.

2009: I don't even wanna think about this one.

2008: Humans could hurdle the ball and catch it with ease and do far more laps than most robots.

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Either way, I think it would be hilarious to watch a "match" played by humans this year.

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I wish they had thought of doing this as an exhibition match during a break sometime during champs.

Too bad our team practice field has to be dismantled soon. This would have been fun to try.

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

Mr. McCan makes an excellent point.

I have to disagree with 2008, I think some robots could go much faster than humans. Plus, I think a lot of the humans would end up getting trampled.

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Ignoring the trampled aspect, I think humans would win. They're not going to outrace the robots, but they sure could outhurdle them. I remember doing a lot of creative maneuvers involving passing the ball with humans while simulating that game early that build season. Ultimately they didn't materialize in the robot world, but they would present a massive advantage for a human alliance.

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This has made me remember how much I want an off-season competition where people bring humans to play the game instead of robots.

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Honestly in response to the idea of an off-season game consisting of 3 Humans vs 3 Robots would be great. I was on field reset for 2 regionals and at champs, the idea was constantly rolling around in my head and I think that for all the people who want to see a Human vs Robot competition happen I think someone should set one up. Would be very cool and truly interesting to watch the robots try to match us Humans.... Hahahaha:)

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I think in general the top teams do consistently better than humans at any game. 2014 would probably be the exception. 2013, no way- few humans can throw it into the slot as consistently and accuratly as a robot IMO, although the 30 point climb could offset it.
2008 could be tricky for humans due to the sheer size of the ball.
Recycle Rush is the perfect time for humans to play against robots (minus can grabbers). A game with no defense to test their stacking prowess without risk of injury.

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Actually, that's possible this year. I've been at events that used half of the field for robot practice while the other half was used for humans...

Challenge: Humans vs Robots. 3 robots vs 3 humans. Standard human player setup behind the wall for both sides. No returning noodles, each alliance is assigned 2 cans from the step.

I'm willing to bet that the humans would give the robots a run for their money--the humans could "airmail" totes to each other.

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

That sounds painful. Really painful. I would not want to be the defensive man on that alliance.

Didn't need to click the link to guess what this was.

Back to the original topic, one of my questions for a version with this game: Can people have (unpowered) ramps? Because some people felt it was a bit cheap to use a ramp tethered to a robot to help them score, would humans have the same freedom?

And could humans join #teamtether? :D

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

Considering the fact that Team Titanium's frisbees sounded like a .50 caliber rifle going off over my head whenever I played against them at Cowtown Throwdown, I'm going to suggest that blocking the frisbees would have ended poorly for humans.

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I would, personally, say no on the ramp. See, most robots don't have 2x 4-DoF arms with opposable thumbs on the multi-jointed manipulators, with built-in 3D vision sensing to know where to place objects. A human can grab a tote and slap it onto a stack or throw it to another human, who can catch it, with minimal difficulty. FRC robots? Not so much.

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

Since the rules where written with no consideration for human vs robot, this is more of an interesting thought exercise rather than a meaningful comparison.

Autonomous would be trivial for the humans. Tote stack & recycle containers in auto zone with extra seconds to start stacking. Humans would be able to climb on the land fill to grab the containers on the step. Once they had a container, the tug of war would always go to the human so the robot would have to be able to pull it to their side before the human got to it. Noodling the container would be trivial for the humans. (throw the noodle on the field & let the human pick it up.) Humans could completely empty the landfill.

Other games would be more difficult because of issues with robot human contact.

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Given the speed of some of those canburglars, I'm pretty sure the robots would win that match. The average human reaction time is about 0.2 seconds. By the time you heard the starting sound and lunged forward over the landfill to grab a can, it would be gone.

The margin is close enough that, assuming it was safe, I would love to see this competition happen.

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Would they have to make the weight limit? I remember we were messing around one day and a couple freshmen took turns on the scale and we joked about turning a small one in as our robot.

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No.

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I agree that the only way to prove this is to try it. But for the robots to win they would have to to get all 4 of them. A 2/2 tie or even a 3/1 split would be a human advantage. If any part of the can is on the step, the Human could recover them. Also no reason that all the noodles on the human side not to be in the land fill.

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1992- Humans would be unholy.

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Unless they got hungry....

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2011 it depends... does each human get a hypothetical minihuman for pole climbing?

2013 definitely not with a few athletic humans can can dunk and each hang from the top of the pyramid.

2015 is tricky because although the best canburglars could beat any human, I don't think they can pull away fast enough for a human to get their arms around the can. If it comes down to a wrestling match a human would tear a robot apart. The only robot I know I would lose to however would be 1114, because I would be too afraid of getting impaled by their harpoons to even try.

Anyway, if defense is allowed I think humans who are strong enough could bully robots and prevent them from scoring any points.

Also, if robots are allowed bumpers that means humans are allowed safety gear?

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How did 71's arms attach to the goals? Were they just hooks, or did they somehow actuate and close around the goals? Depending on the setup, it might not be hard for a human to unhook the goals.

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It depends, especially how the rules would go. Speaking of the past four years:

2012-Humans, definitely. Especially if NBA players are involved. Also I think it's much easier to fit 3 people sitting down on the little bridge than 3 robots.

2013- Kindo of a toss up. Full court shooters can definitely make more shots, but humans can easily pick up from the floor and I think the average person can climb the tower quicker than most robots.

2014- Well the defense would make it difficult for us carbon based lifeforms, but humans can catch, and pick themselves up if they get tipped over. All in all, if standard rules apply, robots win.

2015- I would say humans on this one. I think a skilled player could win a can battle, assuming they grip correctly and apply the right force. Also, humans can deal with the upside down totes and litter everywhere much more efficiently than a robot can.

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In my opinion humans would win most of the games.
1. If you only compare performance of very good robots then you need to compare with very good human players.
2. Humans are more versatile creatures, so strategies can be very complex and effective.

I am familiar only with last 2 games, so here it goes

2015 - Humans win. Even with cans stolen by robots, starting in autonomous mode humans can stack 10-12 or more stacks. If robot teams dare to throw noodles, humans can clear it in no time.

2014 - Humans win. Sheen pads, steel toed boots, superior passing and scoring game, tall goalie, superior speed and torque. Just have to remember that beam in the middle, but helmets will help :). The only way humans will lose is because of those insane penalties.

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I think that in order to balance auto mode humans should be blind-folded and given instruction via walkie-talkies or something. Otherwise it'll skew the scoring too much between the robots and humans.

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If you going to handicap humans then it would be fair to handicap robots in something else.

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FMS isn't enough? :]

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I would LOVE if someone organized an off-season event with robot alliances vs. human alliances. It would be amazing, not too dangerous to the humans, and it would answer some of the questions being presented here. Oh, and it'd be very fun to watch :P

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

a well coordinated 3 person team could work well together, but if people tried to stack like the robots stacked, they'd be screwed over.
my question is, how would the canburglaring battles go? I wouldnt go near those ::ouch::

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

Our 2013 full-court shooter bent or broke quite a few of the blocking superstructures teams added to their robots. Trust me, you really don't want to put any part of a human body in front of those shooters!

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

Take a Frisbee and use it to deflect the Frisbees out of the full court shooter. It doesn't take much. You don't have to block them, just knock the trajectory a little.

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Humans can use broom sticks

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Humans win every game; they go to a robot and push the main breaker

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In my opinion whole point of Robots vs. Humans is "Robots vs. Humans" not "Robots vs. Handicapped Humans".

I recognize that robots would have advantage in some areas and humans in other. However, we can't start picking and choosing to handicap those advantages.

Our team should host an off season event like that hmmmmmmmmmm

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Just make sure that you have proper Video Streaming . I would defititely make sure I will watch that game :D

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ermmmm... that's extending into the frame perimeter of the other robot and can lead to a red card if it's malicious (which it is in this case)

"Humans can use broom sticks"

that's not part of a person, so I feel like it shouldnt count...

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I feel like you'd have to attach it to the person somehow like with duct tape or something. Or tether it.

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Gonna remind everyone, your humans have to be under 120 pounds or they don't make weight.

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

It depends on who the robots are and who the humans are, if it is the number 1 team VS a normal out of shape nerd (like myself) the robots would most likely dominate however if it were a team that had a lot of practice and were in shape then maybe they could win.


-Yamin
Have an epic day/night

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

You can't apply all rules the same way to humans as it applies to robots. If you do, then yes robots will win as all humans wouldn't pass the inspection. That would defeat the purpose of the debate.

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I feel like humans would still have an inspection but different rules to follow than the robots. Higher weight limit, looser size rules etc

I also feel like, in most any game with defense, unless we gave the humans like some sort of armor or guards to wear (especially like shin guards), the robots would win because who would willingly try to play defense on a 120 pound chunk of metal and pvc pipe

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I think it could still work and be fun.

120 pounds implies a smaller student, perhaps a freshman or sophomore, girls will be lighter and statistically smaller than guys.

You'd have to fit within the transport configuration (not a problem, just fold up), and maximum height restriction (again, probably not a problem for a 120 pound human).

Somebody please make this happen!

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Then title needs to change to "Robots vs. Small Humans"

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With how most of the canburglar mechanisms work, the human player only needs to hit the RC and displace it by a few inches or knock it over and the canburglar mechanism would fail. The human player can then reach over the landfill totes and retrieve the RC's. The robots would have to become much more sophisticated to overcome strategies like this.

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Exactly my point.

In a simple battle (without applying petty robot rules to humans) of Humans vs FRC Robots, Humans will win.

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Of course robots would win if all the rules applied. I am yet to meet a 6 week old child that can stack totes up to 6 feet high, or throw a ball or Frisbee 10 feet high. :P

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Sort of reminds me of the ballad of John Henry verses the steam drill.

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Except again there is the question of speed.

In the 0.2 seconds average human reaction time it would take you to respond to the starting signal, plus the time for you to lunge forward to swat at the can, it could already be on its way to the other alliance's side if you were facing off against one of the fastest canburglars.

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I talked to some of my teamates and we are going to seriously consider an offseason event like this. We have to work out a ton of logistics and Im not sure if its really feasible but we will try. The only other off season competition near us is full normal rules and we are also closer to nyc. Now we shall seen whether our mentor, school board, and team resources allow us to do this.

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As I mentioned before, if you do try, please do good video of it.
I totally want to see the real attempt to resolve this debate :)

I'm a videographer. I could shoot and stream 4k but due to latency with the crappy school network I'll run at 1080p. I'm most likely going to set up a few go pros. Have a tripod still setup and a shoulder rig setup.

I talked to my team and they Said go for it. We are now in the research phase. I'm going to start a full thread later. We have never done something like this so we have to really discuss what to do in depth.

We have to also make some restrictions for humans. One they can't go into the landfill during auto mode and they are not allowed to get the recycling cans off the step. They also are not allowed to do autonomous. We will do some tests but we think in the higher level matches the robots could give the human players a run for their money.

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At present time I don't think it's even feasible to stream at 4K. But having video mixed in Post and loaded on UTube would be great.

I understand some limitations that would be placed on team of humans, but I'd hate to see over crippling. If many of mentioned limitations for human team are implemented (some of them I understand are for safety reasons), then I think it will be fair to provide them with more totes on the field, plus more tote supply off the field, as I suspect that well organized team can do more than 10-12 stacks, especially if number of cans is limited for them. Also may be even bonus points for filling up steps with tote-stacks completely.

Definitely start a thread to get ideas and to sort out logistics.

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Keep in mind, you can not START building your human until the first day of build season. In addition, at the end of build season you must bag your human, only to be released for competitions.

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Ah! Your right. I was thinking about using some prefabricated parts. :yikes: Thanks for reminding me. :o

Re: Robots vs. Humans
 

While you can build a human fairly quickly, it takes about 9 months to fully develop. So much for the six week build.

We should stop before it gets worse.

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Probably so. Mentors helping, coaching, advising in this kind of activity would be seen as a violation of First's YP policy. ::rtm::

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Depends on whether or not you consider height and weight restrictions. A small human tends to be proportionately more fragile than a small robot. Also, excepting 2015, most robots had fairly short heights as well. In order to find a <120 pound person to play most of the games, chances are that they would likely lose to a robot who has had all 120 pounds of their frame perfectly designed to fulfill game objectives (er, designed and cheesecaked), whereas a 120 pound human has a lot of "extra" that isn't too helpful in a competition. Also, no one seems to think about the fact that robots never get tired. Have you ever tried to outrun your robot? I have (thanks to the programmers not disabling it before it reached poor innocent me holding the tether :/). Humans (that are in decent shape) can out-sprint a robot in the short term, but 2.5 minutes of sprinting around to achieve game objective can get tiring, especially with this years 8 pound totes to carry around. You might not think your robot is exactly careening around and going 0-60 out of the human player station, but human legs would still probably give out before your CIM motors will. And in the long term, humans can't just get a new battery every match. Overall, humans could probably put up a good fight in a lot of the games due to good reflexes and spatial skills, but a well built robot with an experienced drive team would likely win at most games.