Re: I Respectfully Disagree
 

Posted by David Kelso at 04/12/2001 5:57 PM EST


Coach on team #131, C.H.A.O.S.-, from Central High School and OSRAM SYLVANIA/ Fleet .


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



What a hot topic and it is not even the question of the week!! Yes, there may be some problems with some adults as coaches..In little league and soccer, many leagues require adults to be "licensed". Once you become a real coach you realize that "yelling" does not work. Our team has a coach selected by the company and one by the school. The leaders of both decide how to select their coach. Remember that the company might have a $40,000 budget invested in your team and needs to have some control over the play on the field.
Maybe you do not have perfect coaches on your team, but do not make decisions for others. There are some tremendous adults out there who really inspire others..and can teach students how to coach. If your team can not be inspired by people like ANDY, then FIRST is not for you. I have a tremendous college student helping us out. No one on my team would object to having Smitty as a coach. Maybe some coaching lessons need to be given for anyone who wishes to coach.

Re: I Respectfully Disagree
 

Posted by Christina Alzona at 04/12/2001 6:27 PM EST


Other on team #271, Mechanical Marauders, from Bay Shore High School and Verizon.


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



Okay...I think I'll put in my two cents on this one. I think Matt is correct when he says it depends on the person. There are good coaches and bad coaches, both student and adult. I don't think it is really right to totally blame the adults for being bad coaches, just because, not all of them were. And I'm sure not all the students were the best coaches either. Now, I'll admit, it can get annoying when an adult has a certain strategy in their head, because it seems like that overrules the students ideas. But not all adults do that, and the ones that do, I think can be put into the "bad coach" area, not "bad adult." I am a college student, so perhaps I can see both sides of the argument. But, ultimately, it's the team's decision who they make a coach, and if they believe they have a good coach, well, maybe they do. Maybe that's what is best. And if they have a bad coach, well, that happens too. But, I think that happens with students and adults, and that we shouldn't ban the adults because some of them are bad coaches. I think students are just as guilty, 'cause I'm sure there are some bad student coaches too.

~ Christina ºoº

Yes, yes YES!!!
 

Posted by Rob DeCotiis at 04/12/2001 2:01 PM EST


Student on team #504, RoBUCtics, from Red Bank Regional High School and Jesel.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



my adult coach pressed the red button in one of the biggest matches we were in... we were surely going to get over 300 points had he not hit the button... plus, he does a lot of work on the robot, and frankly, that's work that he took away from us students(all 5 of us)... true, we would've never finished the bot without all that work he did, but... maybe we would've started earlier. (it was his idea to not start working on it for 3 weeks)... Mr. Engle, if you're reading this, no offense, this is just how i feel. Also, every minute we were working on our bot, we needed an adult there with us. This seriously cut back on time, especially since our adult coach has a new son. I say, GET RID OF THE ADULT COACHES!

Re: What are you saying?!?!
 

Posted by Chris Orimoto at 04/12/2001 2:52 PM EST


Student on team #368, Kika Mana, from McKinley High School and Nasa Ames/Hawaiian Electric/Weinberg Foundation.


In Reply to: Yes, yes YES!!!
Posted by Rob DeCotiis on 04/12/2001 2:01 PM EST:



Please keep in mind that the mission of FIRST is to "inspire" students in the fields of science and engineering. Although yes, I did spend a lot of time working on the robot...I would have to say that our engineers PROBABLY spent more. I can see if your adult-coach made a bad decision at one point, but that is also one aspect of the rules that should be discussed by the ENTIRE alliance-station team before any matches are started. Yes, even the students have the responsibility of reminding the adults that they cannot push the red button.

Example...we had many pre-competition discussions on who and what was going to be in the alliance station during matches. To AVOID any possible coaches pushing the button, our human player was made responsible for that task. I mean, if she wasn't there on time, then either I or the other driver would do it. Delegating responsibilities such as that is a tiny, yet crucial part of being a competitor in this "game". And mind you it NEED not be the adults or the coaches that do everything. As responsible students, you CAN take matters into your own hands if necessary.
(And YES, I am also a student, so this is not any type of biased adult opinion)

Just my personal thoughts...

Chris, #368

Adult coaches? What adult coaches?
 

Posted by Gui Cavalcanti at 04/13/2001 9:46 AM EST


Student on team #422, Mech Tech, from Governor's School (GSGIS) and Verizon.


In Reply to: Re: What are you saying?!?!
Posted by Chris Orimoto on 04/12/2001 2:52 PM EST:



All of you are talking so much about how adult coaches aggravated you in the alliance stations and how they took over your robot.. well, follow team 422's example; don't deal with it at all. Well, that can be taken in a bad way, so I'll explain myself...

Team 422 had mentors, not coaches. We're just 20 students who wanted to be in the FIRST competition, and we worked diligently. Not once did I ever have any adult review my program for me (being one of two programmers, the other was mainly electrical engineering instead of programming). Our mechanical guys would think up designs (students), get to work, sawing and cutting, and build a chassis. Sometimes our mentors helped us immensely, but they virtually never touched the robot; they would stand over our shoulders while soldering to point out different things, suggesting ideas to mechanical while they were cutting things, and other ideas like that. Sure, they cut things for us sometimes, but they didn't finish the robot for us!

What I'm saying is this is mainly a student effort; I'm all for adult involvement, just limit it to mentoring if you can.

-Gui Cavalcanti

Team 422 - Mech Techs
Richmond Virginia

PS: All this may have to do with the fact that we only had 3 engineers with us at any one time, but that's OK. We love them all the same.

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Carolyn Duncan at 04/12/2001 2:15 PM EST


Student on team #495, The Pack, from Jamestown High School and VBEP/Raytheon/Saic.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Team 495 switched off between who got the mentor badges and the human player position. We always had one adult who helped us with most of the programming and electrical work, mostly for if there were serious problems to keep us from spazing out. Our drivers were always the same 2 people. I seemed to notice that most of the teams who had done exceptionally well at their regionals or had excellent robots let the drivers do the negotiating and strategery lol (thanx George W.). That seemed to be the most effective thing to do. Also most of these teams had no adults on the field with them. A lot can be said for these guys who use their own minds that know what the robot can actually do and what many engineers think should theoretically happen.
2 cents.
:Carolyn
Team 495

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Chris Orimoto at 04/12/2001 3:05 PM EST


Student on team #368, Kika Mana, from McKinley High School and Nasa Ames/Hawaiian Electric/Weinberg Foundation.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



(Hoping that this doesn't sound TOO much like my last message...)

Our alliance-station team was composed of 3 students and 2 adults (which is the maximum number of adults allowed down there). After last year (our rookie year), I found that the BEST experience of the competition came from being in that alliance station during matches. Although FIRST is designed for students, we took into consideration WHO spent the most time working. As far as the robot goes, I'd have to give it to our engineers. I mean, as students, we spent over 50 (sometimes even 60 and 70) hours-a-week working, but I'm sure the adults surpassed that at times.

Therefore, our drive team came down to committment. Myself and the other driver were the "most experienced" (committed to so don't get me wrong or anything) so that's how we got our positions. Our human player probably spent the most time working at the shop, so although we wouldn't trust her shooting balls even if her life depended on it, she was our human player. Our two coaches probably spent the most time (other than certain students) watching other regionals and getting to understand the game.

AND, mind you, although we did have 2 adults in the alliance station EVERY ROUND, it was our driver (me) who did almost all the communicating with other team members (strategy-wise). Personally, I have no preferance to talk to students or adults. I've had the privilage to be both successful and unsuccessful with both. Our adults were there to keep things calm on the field and make sure the decided strategy (which had to be communicated well) was carried out to perfection.

I think that we, as students, need to recognize exactly HOW much time adults actually spend on this project, too. Unless your team is 100% student run (there are a lot of you out there), I think adults deserve a chance to be in the alliance station. I can only imagine the level of happiness to see something they spent a lot of time on, working in matches.

All student coaches would be cool...I just think we need to appreciate a little...

Just my personal thoughts...

Chris, #368

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Pamela at 04/12/2001 3:18 PM EST


Student on team #166, Techno Insanity, from Merrimack High School and Texas Instruments.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Team Merrimack 166 has very little adults involved in our program (which is a shame, we're working on it). But for as long as I've been on the team, 3 yrs, we've had a student only drive team (including coaches) I like doing things that way because it gets students involved not only in building, designing, and driving, it also gives students a chance to be more involved in strategizing and works on their quick thinking skills, I would like to see more teams with at least one student coach!
Pamela 166

Each teams' decision
 

Posted by Erin at 04/12/2001 5:03 PM EST


College Student on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Team 65 has these two great coaches, Norm and Ken (you've probably heard of Ken, pretty popular guy...) Anyway, I think they are great coaches. The students just love them, they listen to each other, and they are very communicative people (yes, and they ARE engineers!).
However, not all teachers/engineers are the same way. Some engineers lose the spirit of FIRST when they get on the field. It no longer is a game to them, just a great big POWER STRUGGLE. They yell at the students and dont communicate well with each other and shout mismatched directions into the drivers' ears.
What I am trying to say is, there are great engineer/coaches out there (you know who you are) but some of them just don't make the cut. I think it should be up to students and adults together, like a consensus. Each side should decide why there should or shouldn't be certain coaches (just because they are your only two engineers doesnt mean they should be your only two options!). I mean, only the drivers know how they operate in relation to their coach, and if you aren't listening to them, then you aren't letting your drivers perform in the best manner they can. Agreement, or rather, consensus, is probably a good way of deciding who should be coach.
Don't let it get so far as to leave the mission in the dust- remember, FIRST belongs to the students, and without them, everyone else wouldn't be here.

Response would be appreciated.
-Erin

Re: No more adult coaches... noooooo
 

Posted by nick237 at 04/12/2001 8:35 PM EST


Engineer on team #237, sie h2o bots, from Watertown high school ct and sieman co.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



After reading all the post below I came to this conclusion...
This year we had the same three students on stage, two drivers and the human player. We had Four coaches and we each took turns to enjoy the game on stage, so the students had more stage time than the adults.
Prior to the start of each game while waitting in the wings our team went up and down all the other teams and said that if we were alied with you this is what we can do, then we asked what they could do.
One game we were teamed up with three rookies and as it was only the second game they looked at us wide eyed. The students in our team said if you can do this then we can do that??? The result was our 2nd highest score of the week end. During our 6th game a student on another team told our driver to follow behind the first bot over the ramp and as soon as he drove off then for us to back up and reset the ramp for the 3rd robot, this was an amazing sugestion and I wondered why I had not thought of this time saving manuver my self. this game was our best in the competition.
We had an great team of students and adults and even in this amazing team we had good and " not so good ". The students earned thier place on the stage as did the adults and to take away the thrill of being a continued part of the construction proccess would reduce the motivation for many.
When many of the students during the building period are asleep in their beds because they have school the next morning, many of the adults are diligently working all night hard on the robot and then they would go directly to work for another 8 hours in the morning.
There were students who would have stood side by side and hour by hour with the adults but the school set rules and we had to send them home by 10pm.
Student learn from the adults but the adults equaly learn from the students, its this interaction that must be preserved.
To all you students who believe that adults should not be part of the magical moment think before firing us, were all kids at heart.
Thanks for listening.
nick. a 200lbs 53 year old adult student.





: XCATS -#191- have had only student coaches for the last 3 years. You have to qualify and it is usually seniors.
: With the heartbreak this year, of adults pushing the red button, I think we should think seriously about all student coaches for next year.
: Perhaps only rookie teams could have one adult coach.

: After all who's competition is this anyway??

Well said, Nick (EOM)
 

Posted by Joe Johnson at 04/12/2001 10:12 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Re: No more adult coaches... noooooo
Posted by nick237 on 04/12/2001 8:35 PM EST:



EOM = End Of Message

When the line between 'adult' and 'student' is thin..
 

Posted by colleen - T190 at 04/13/2001 2:32 AM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



I think Deej spoke of it somewhere down the line on this thread, but he and I were on-field coaches for T190 this year.. together we have 12 years of FIRST experience and 8 years of driving experience (symmetrical too.. just the way Ken likes it ;-).. and both our positions on the team plus experience lead into us being chosen to coach..

But both being only sophomores (and recent transfers to WPI).. what are we, adult or student?

When we're out there.. unless you know us, you'd prolly think we're high schoolers.. and if such was the case 'not want to listen to us'.. but fact is, I listen to the person with the best ideas.. 'student' or 'adult'...

And I found that it was less that the 'adults' didn't want to listen as the 'students' didn't... adults tending to be a bit more compromising actually.. where as students went in with a set objective (most likely and normally decided with the help of advisors pre-match) and refused to comply to the alliance's needs...

It was a problem all around.. but I don't think it's fair to discrimate one group from the next.. especially when on some teams they are barely distinguishable..

The real problem was the different desires of teams.. in regionals it tended to be that teams wanted to 'do their thing' so they could know it worked and debug, etc.. in nationals it came more into some people aimed for 100points, some for 200pts, 300, 400, 500, etc.. and those varying desires made it difficult to convince teams to 'go for it all'.. when they were perfectly happy with less..

That's a problem with a game you can't 'win'.. there isn't really as common of a goal for teams as FIRST would like to think...

And as for adult coaches hitting the buttons.. maybe instead of worrying about age and stature of your coaches, worry about how well they know the rules.. it never happened on T190, although we can readily be mistaken for high schoolers, cause we knew the rules..

It's not all adults, it's certain adults.
 

Posted by bill whitley at 04/13/2001 8:04 AM EST


Student on team #70, Auto City Bandits, from Powers Catholic High School and Kettering University.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



I've changed my stance and now think that adults should be allowed to go out as coaches. Earlier in the season I advocated against this, I think that was wrong now. I think that the problem doenst lie in the age of the coach, but if an adult coach wants to deal only with another adult coach, that is a problem. I had this happen to me during a match at nationals. I have also experienced coaches who instantly think they know more about the game because they are older. I agree with Andy's point of having someone out there to take responsibility, that was my job this year (as well as strategy & drive), and it was a toughest one.
I think its just a few rotten apple coaches that have given many adult coaches a bad rep. I saw a good many bad coaches, both student and adult, and many good ones, both student & adult.

Bill
Team #70

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Erica Schindler at 04/13/2001 3:05 PM EST


Other on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells/ ONSI Corporation.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Student coached teams earn my total respect. I wanted to be a coach for all four years that i was in FIRST, but i was never able to, always being bumped by an adult on the team, i am sorry to whom this may offend, however, who is this competition really for? It is for the students to learn and succeed on their own. What do the students learn if they are never given the opportunity to coach the team. Who cares if you win or loose, there are so few winners in this competition, and winning isnt what it is all about. Who cares if the adult knows more than the student? why doesnt that adult just teach the student? This competition is for the students, and should be done ALL by the students, only having the adults as a support system. My vote goes for all student coaches, which means to me, no college kids, or adult team members up on stage at all. To all the teams out there who use adult coaches, think about your team, and think about the capabilities of all those students on your team, it might surprise you, but there is most likely someone burning to be up on stage, and really desiring to be a coach, dont deny them that position. Let the kids do it....
thats all i have to say
erica schindler
alumna from team 177....

It all goes back to what Dean says all the time...
 

Posted by Kate T190 at 04/13/2001 6:33 PM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.


In Reply to: Re: No more adult coaches
Posted by Erica Schindler on 04/13/2001 3:05 PM EST:



It's something along the lines of this competition is to INSPIRE students and to put the engineers in the spotlights for the kids instead of sports figures. He doesn't tell everyone HOW to inspire the students that participate.

Different folks, different strokes. Everyone gets inspired differently, and teams decide on how they're going to run their team by however they feel is best. This includes choosing who's going to coach on stage. Some students react well to adult coaching while others relate better to how other students coach.

Whatever problems there have been with adult coaches has been on a case by case basis. If adults don't listen to students (or vice versa) when strategizing, there isn't really anything you can do about it at that time. Teams can work to make sure that both the students and engineers understand what needs to happen and that whatever decisions that are made are in the best interest of the whole alliance.

Personally, I haven't had much of a problem with student to engineer relationships on the various teams I've been on. I've earned a lot of respect from a lot of different people, and they have the same respect from me.

I think a lot of what happens up on stage might have something to do with how individuals carry themselves and present their ideas. If someone is just yelling or being stubborn, their ideas likely won't be well taken. But if an individual carries themself with confidence, understanding, and willingness to listen, I believe that things will go smoothly.

A lot of people in FIRST have my respect, both student and adult coaches. Not just coaches, but that's who's being focused on in this thread. You know who you are. :)

I guess that's enough rambling for now. Best of luck to everyone with what "off season" competitions they're attending. Looking forward to seeing everyone whenever possible. :)

T190 XO
Kate