No more adult coaches
 

Posted by julia walsh at 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST


Other on team #191, XCATS, from Wilson Magnet School and xerox.



XCATS -#191- have had only student coaches for the last 3 years. You have to qualify and it is usually seniors.
With the heartbreak this year, of adults pushing the red button, I think we should think seriously about all student coaches for next year.
Perhaps only rookie teams could have one adult coach.

After all who's competition is this anyway??

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Wayne Cokeley at 04/12/2001 8:34 AM EST


Coach on team #25, Raider Robotix, from North Brunswick Twp. H.S. and Bristol-Myers Squibb.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



: XCATS -#191- have had only student coaches for the last 3 years. You have to qualify and it is usually seniors.
: With the heartbreak this year, of adults pushing the red button, I think we should think seriously about all student coaches for next year.
: Perhaps only rookie teams could have one adult coach.

: After all who's competition is this anyway??

More distressing were the highly emotional, goal oriented, adult coaches which we found simply shouted down or ignored our sophomore student drive team. Professional? Maybe, but certainly not gracious. Adults on the field tend to destroy any credibility a young drive team might have since they automatically are no longer peers despite their knowledge of the game or lack thereof.
I was surprised that in Fla there was a designation (with the yellow sticker) of which students were the coaches and were therefore allowed to push the red button. Since our entire drive team is made of students would it really have made a difference? I guess it's just the rules....

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Deej- T190 at 04/12/2001 9:04 AM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompeii, from Mass Academy and WPI.


In Reply to: Re: No more adult coaches
Posted by Wayne Cokeley on 04/12/2001 8:34 AM EST:



Our coaching staff on T-190 was two college students with 6 years a piece of FIRST experience. While there was times when adult coaches from other teams wouldn't listen to us, we had the prior experience and knowledge to put in valuable strategic ideas for qualifiers. When our team was on stage with a young drive team, we listened to what they had to say and went from there, not pushing our way through things. overall it was a very good experience....

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Kris Verdeyen at 04/12/2001 8:37 AM EST


Engineer on team #118, Robonauts, from CCISD and NASA - Johnson Space Center and Friends.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



A clarification: student coaches aren't allowed to push the stop button either.

As far as your idea, though, I'd be in favor of it. The trouble of voluntary compliance with that rule, though, is the danger of a student coach being bossed around by the adult coach of another team. But if all coaches were required to be HS students, the negotiations would probably be a lot smoother.

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Patrick Dingle at 04/12/2001 9:02 AM EST


College Student on team #639, Red B^2, from Ithaca High School and Cornell University.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Although I was a coach this year and not a high school student, I think that is a GREAT idea. Having the team up on the stage all being high school students I think would be awesome. Since there would be rookie teams that would be up there for the first time, maybe the refs could simply check and make sure the battery is plugged in and the controller is ready to go. That way no dumb mistakes are made. I'll bring this up at our next team meeting -- whether its in the rules or not for next year, having two HS student coaches is something we should consider.

Patrick

: XCATS -#191- have had only student coaches for the last 3 years. You have to qualify and it is usually seniors.
: With the heartbreak this year, of adults pushing the red button, I think we should think seriously about all student coaches for next year.
: Perhaps only rookie teams could have one adult coach.

: After all who's competition is this anyway??

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Mike Graser at 04/12/2001 9:52 AM EST


Engineer on team #174, Arctic Warriors, from Liverpool HS, NY and Carrier.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Our team generally sends up two adult coaches in the early rounds to be able to check on any problems with the robot. We then scale it back to one and their primary purpose is to help set up the robot before the match. As the rounds progress we go to all student coaches. As an adult coach I feel my responsibilities are to make sure of the little things; is the robot turned on, do we all have buttons, etc and to relax the team. The drivers have enough confusion and stress without me shouting out instructions.

One other good thing about adult coaches... if things go wrong in the match, they can calmly explain
what happened to the other adults. This helps prevent the non-coaching adults from giving the student drivers the 3rd degree after the match.

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by ChrisH at 04/12/2001 12:07 PM EST


Engineer on team #330, Beach 'Bots, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA JPL, J & F Machine, Raytheon, et al.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



This year we started in LA with two adult coaches who actively worked to shape strategy. But we found that other teams seemed to resent this. So we went to an all student team. OK one was a college student who drove last year, but he looked like a student and many of the other teams knew him from previous years.

After one match in SJ where our students were yelled at in a most unprofessional way, we put back one adult. His job was just to make sure things didn't get out of hand. He made no input to strategy.

I don't think we would object to a no-adults rule. Our drivers have years of experience and we drive the robot throughout the build stage. As an engineer I'm not allowed to touch the controls EVER. If I need something driven during the build I have to get one of the drivers to do it for me. It's just more practice for them and not all that different from working in a union shop to me.

Our drive team is experienced enough with the robot that I don't even worry about things not being properly setup or turned on. If it's that critical we do it in the pit anyway.

My $0.02
Chris Husmann,PE
Team 330 the Beach'Bots

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by C. Merritt at 04/12/2001 12:39 PM EST


Coach on team #211, MAK, from John Marshall HS and Kodak.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Just a quick thought: it wasn't only the adults that got their teams disqualified. The buttons, balls and controls could not be touched by the team members that had yellow dots on their pink buttons. On many teams, drivers, controlers and human players rotated with the two student coaches in different matches. In some cases, the student who had on the button with the yellow dot hit the stop button and the team was disqualified.

Just a thought to add to the discussion

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Carolyn Duncan at 04/12/2001 2:00 PM EST


Student on team #495, The Pack, from Jamestown High School and VBEP/Raytheon/Saic.


In Reply to: Re: No more adult coaches
Posted by C. Merritt on 04/12/2001 12:39 PM EST:



In some cases, the student who had on the button with the yellow dot hit the stop button and the team was disqualified.

: Just a thought to add to the discussion

This happened to my team in the first match on the Curie field. One of the members of another team on the alliance hit the kill though he was wearing the badge with the yellow dot. Even though the refs made sure to tell everyone personally that they had the yellow dot and could not hit the kill, shoot balls or touch the joysticks. We all got DQed in our first match. Oh well. What if all the people on the field are students, should it matter then who hits the kill?
:Carolyn
Team 495

I Respectfully Disagree
 

Posted by Andy Baker at 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST


Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



It's too bad that some adult coaches make things bad for the rest of us. I agree, there were a few disrespectful and untruthful adult coaches out there, but the majority of the coaches are good to work with, in my opinion.

I had the honor to be the on-field coach and head negotiator for our team (45).

I disagree with the motion to restrict "adults" from being coaches on the field for numerous reasons:

1. From what I recall, FIRST has always said that they want adult coaches on the field. They want to have some engineers in the spotlight, so that kids can recognize these people as positive role models.

2. At least one adult needs to be out there to accept resposibility of all actions of the drive team on the field. For our team, all drive team decisions were filtered through me, so if anything went wrong, the buck stopped there. That way, I can keep other people (team members, corporate staff, school administration) off our kids backs.

3. Of all of the difficult times that we had with other teams during the pre-match meeting, most of them were with student coaches. Although there were some exceptions, students were not prepared to quickly organize the match to get the job done. If a student was organized enough to do this, then they ran the floor. If they simply yelled louder than the rest of us, then they were tactfully told to listen to the rest of the alliance.

4. Believe it or not, this competition is not just about the students. You can say that, but it's not really true. Too many adults put in too many hours to let a team's destiny be in the hands of some under-prepared students. I mean no disrespect to students... there were some darn good student coaches out there this year... they were just in the minority.

5. Another good thing about having adult coaches out there is having continuity from year to year. I think that the main reason that the Midwest Regionals had higher scores is that many of the coaches on the field know each other well enough that the negotiations usually went smooth.

If FIRST would've let us have MORE time to plan the match, then having student coaches would've been fine. This "pre-match negotiation" process was the toughest part of this year's game, and it was not fun. Sometimes, I found it not enjoyable at all... but it had to be done in order to play the game at a competitive level.

Andy B.

Andy is awesome...
 

Posted by Joe Johnson at 04/12/2001 2:13 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



You are about as good of a human being as I know.

Thanks for your comments.

For what it's worth, I agree with you across the board.

Joe J.

Re: I Respectfully Disagree
 

Posted by Bill Gold at 04/12/2001 2:45 PM EST


Student on team #258, The Sea Dawgs, from Lincoln High and KPC&B, Applied Materials, SJUSD, and Mr. Stokely.


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



I don't really care who stands behind the glass, but I feel like I didn't get much respect from the majority of adult coaches I met at the events. I was my team's pre-match negotiator. But I found that the majority of adult coaches wouldn't even listen to a word I would say. They had their own strategies in mind and wouldn't even consider what I had to offer.

I was so frustrated that I told my teacher, Mr. Stokely, that he should be the strategist, since there was a chance that people would listen to him. Those of you who know him, know what I mean :-)

I'm sure that you're not like this Andy, but I ran into a bunch of "I'm smarter than you so we'll do things my way" adults.

Re: I Respectfully Disagree
 

Posted by Kris Verdeyen at 04/12/2001 3:26 PM EST


Engineer on team #118, Robonauts, from CCISD and NASA - Johnson Space Center and Friends.


In Reply to: Re: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Bill Gold on 04/12/2001 2:45 PM EST:



I agree totally with your comment about respect. As a young looking 22 year old, I was mistaken for a high school student many times at our regional and at nats and summarily ignored. But, I was guilty of a similar offense when I told a high school student that he needed to give the button with a yellow dot to a coach.

I think that it would be a good idea to have the students do most of the negotiating, but to still have a single adult coach on the field to help if things get out of hand. A great way to encourage more student participation in coaching would be (listen up here, FIRST) to post the match pairings much earlier. This would enable the students milling around in the pits to do the strategy sessions, or perhaps even have strategy meetings online, before even arriving in Florida. The downside to that plan (one of them, anyway) is that it reduces the amount of scouting a team needs to do.



: I don't really care who stands behind the glass, but I feel like I didn't get much respect from the majority of adult coaches I met at the events. I was my team's pre-match negotiator. But I found that the majority of adult coaches wouldn't even listen to a word I would say. They had their own strategies in mind and wouldn't even consider what I had to offer.

: I was so frustrated that I told my teacher, Mr. Stokely, that he should be the strategist, since there was a chance that people would listen to him. Those of you who know him, know what I mean :-)

: I'm sure that you're not like this Andy, but I ran into a bunch of "I'm smarter than you so we'll do things my way" adults.

Re: I Respectfully Disagree
 

Posted by Matt Leese at 04/12/2001 2:50 PM EST


College Student on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Fiber Technologies & RIT.


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



I think that what you're going to find is that some students make good coaches and some students make bad coaches. And guess what? Some adults make good coaches and some adults make bad coaches. Usually for exactly the same reason. I think having student coaches helps the students a lot more than having adult coaches helps the students. Students don't learn too much from having adult coaches. However, having student coaches helps the coaches learn to work together, plan, be prepared. It just comes down to picking the right people -- student or adult.

Matt who's been on a team with only student coaches and a team with only adult coaches to varying degrees of success

Re: I Respectfully Disagree
 

Posted by Paul Copioli at 04/12/2001 5:15 PM EST


Engineer on team #217, Team Macomb - Royal Fusion, from Utica Schools, Fraser Schools, Warren Cons. School and Ford Motor Company.


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



I have to agree with Andy and Joe on this one.

Restricting the coaching to only students is as bad as restricting coaching to only adults. Each team has their own preference and should be allowed the freedom to choose their coaches accordingly.

At Nationals there were teams with all students, teams with 1 adult, and teams with 2 adults. Each time we strategized, we listened to each negotiator: adult or student. Our team happens to think that the interaction between engineers and students on the field is as important as the interaction off the field. If you don't feel that way, fine; but don't try to limit other teams because you don't want adult coaches. If you think student coaches are better, then have student coaches.

On last thing. Please remember that the engineers are volunteering their time for the students. We are here for you. Interaction on the field between mentor and student is rewarding for both mentor and student. Please remember that.

-Paul

Re: I Respectfully Disagree
 

Posted by David Kelso at 04/12/2001 5:57 PM EST


Coach on team #131, C.H.A.O.S.-, from Central High School and OSRAM SYLVANIA/ Fleet .


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



What a hot topic and it is not even the question of the week!! Yes, there may be some problems with some adults as coaches..In little league and soccer, many leagues require adults to be "licensed". Once you become a real coach you realize that "yelling" does not work. Our team has a coach selected by the company and one by the school. The leaders of both decide how to select their coach. Remember that the company might have a $40,000 budget invested in your team and needs to have some control over the play on the field.
Maybe you do not have perfect coaches on your team, but do not make decisions for others. There are some tremendous adults out there who really inspire others..and can teach students how to coach. If your team can not be inspired by people like ANDY, then FIRST is not for you. I have a tremendous college student helping us out. No one on my team would object to having Smitty as a coach. Maybe some coaching lessons need to be given for anyone who wishes to coach.

Re: I Respectfully Disagree
 

Posted by Christina Alzona at 04/12/2001 6:27 PM EST


Other on team #271, Mechanical Marauders, from Bay Shore High School and Verizon.


In Reply to: I Respectfully Disagree
Posted by Andy Baker on 04/12/2001 1:52 PM EST:



Okay...I think I'll put in my two cents on this one. I think Matt is correct when he says it depends on the person. There are good coaches and bad coaches, both student and adult. I don't think it is really right to totally blame the adults for being bad coaches, just because, not all of them were. And I'm sure not all the students were the best coaches either. Now, I'll admit, it can get annoying when an adult has a certain strategy in their head, because it seems like that overrules the students ideas. But not all adults do that, and the ones that do, I think can be put into the "bad coach" area, not "bad adult." I am a college student, so perhaps I can see both sides of the argument. But, ultimately, it's the team's decision who they make a coach, and if they believe they have a good coach, well, maybe they do. Maybe that's what is best. And if they have a bad coach, well, that happens too. But, I think that happens with students and adults, and that we shouldn't ban the adults because some of them are bad coaches. I think students are just as guilty, 'cause I'm sure there are some bad student coaches too.

~ Christina ºoº

Yes, yes YES!!!
 

Posted by Rob DeCotiis at 04/12/2001 2:01 PM EST


Student on team #504, RoBUCtics, from Red Bank Regional High School and Jesel.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



my adult coach pressed the red button in one of the biggest matches we were in... we were surely going to get over 300 points had he not hit the button... plus, he does a lot of work on the robot, and frankly, that's work that he took away from us students(all 5 of us)... true, we would've never finished the bot without all that work he did, but... maybe we would've started earlier. (it was his idea to not start working on it for 3 weeks)... Mr. Engle, if you're reading this, no offense, this is just how i feel. Also, every minute we were working on our bot, we needed an adult there with us. This seriously cut back on time, especially since our adult coach has a new son. I say, GET RID OF THE ADULT COACHES!

Re: What are you saying?!?!
 

Posted by Chris Orimoto at 04/12/2001 2:52 PM EST


Student on team #368, Kika Mana, from McKinley High School and Nasa Ames/Hawaiian Electric/Weinberg Foundation.


In Reply to: Yes, yes YES!!!
Posted by Rob DeCotiis on 04/12/2001 2:01 PM EST:



Please keep in mind that the mission of FIRST is to "inspire" students in the fields of science and engineering. Although yes, I did spend a lot of time working on the robot...I would have to say that our engineers PROBABLY spent more. I can see if your adult-coach made a bad decision at one point, but that is also one aspect of the rules that should be discussed by the ENTIRE alliance-station team before any matches are started. Yes, even the students have the responsibility of reminding the adults that they cannot push the red button.

Example...we had many pre-competition discussions on who and what was going to be in the alliance station during matches. To AVOID any possible coaches pushing the button, our human player was made responsible for that task. I mean, if she wasn't there on time, then either I or the other driver would do it. Delegating responsibilities such as that is a tiny, yet crucial part of being a competitor in this "game". And mind you it NEED not be the adults or the coaches that do everything. As responsible students, you CAN take matters into your own hands if necessary.
(And YES, I am also a student, so this is not any type of biased adult opinion)

Just my personal thoughts...

Chris, #368

Adult coaches? What adult coaches?
 

Posted by Gui Cavalcanti at 04/13/2001 9:46 AM EST


Student on team #422, Mech Tech, from Governor's School (GSGIS) and Verizon.


In Reply to: Re: What are you saying?!?!
Posted by Chris Orimoto on 04/12/2001 2:52 PM EST:



All of you are talking so much about how adult coaches aggravated you in the alliance stations and how they took over your robot.. well, follow team 422's example; don't deal with it at all. Well, that can be taken in a bad way, so I'll explain myself...

Team 422 had mentors, not coaches. We're just 20 students who wanted to be in the FIRST competition, and we worked diligently. Not once did I ever have any adult review my program for me (being one of two programmers, the other was mainly electrical engineering instead of programming). Our mechanical guys would think up designs (students), get to work, sawing and cutting, and build a chassis. Sometimes our mentors helped us immensely, but they virtually never touched the robot; they would stand over our shoulders while soldering to point out different things, suggesting ideas to mechanical while they were cutting things, and other ideas like that. Sure, they cut things for us sometimes, but they didn't finish the robot for us!

What I'm saying is this is mainly a student effort; I'm all for adult involvement, just limit it to mentoring if you can.

-Gui Cavalcanti

Team 422 - Mech Techs
Richmond Virginia

PS: All this may have to do with the fact that we only had 3 engineers with us at any one time, but that's OK. We love them all the same.

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Carolyn Duncan at 04/12/2001 2:15 PM EST


Student on team #495, The Pack, from Jamestown High School and VBEP/Raytheon/Saic.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Team 495 switched off between who got the mentor badges and the human player position. We always had one adult who helped us with most of the programming and electrical work, mostly for if there were serious problems to keep us from spazing out. Our drivers were always the same 2 people. I seemed to notice that most of the teams who had done exceptionally well at their regionals or had excellent robots let the drivers do the negotiating and strategery lol (thanx George W.). That seemed to be the most effective thing to do. Also most of these teams had no adults on the field with them. A lot can be said for these guys who use their own minds that know what the robot can actually do and what many engineers think should theoretically happen.
2 cents.
:Carolyn
Team 495

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Chris Orimoto at 04/12/2001 3:05 PM EST


Student on team #368, Kika Mana, from McKinley High School and Nasa Ames/Hawaiian Electric/Weinberg Foundation.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



(Hoping that this doesn't sound TOO much like my last message...)

Our alliance-station team was composed of 3 students and 2 adults (which is the maximum number of adults allowed down there). After last year (our rookie year), I found that the BEST experience of the competition came from being in that alliance station during matches. Although FIRST is designed for students, we took into consideration WHO spent the most time working. As far as the robot goes, I'd have to give it to our engineers. I mean, as students, we spent over 50 (sometimes even 60 and 70) hours-a-week working, but I'm sure the adults surpassed that at times.

Therefore, our drive team came down to committment. Myself and the other driver were the "most experienced" (committed to so don't get me wrong or anything) so that's how we got our positions. Our human player probably spent the most time working at the shop, so although we wouldn't trust her shooting balls even if her life depended on it, she was our human player. Our two coaches probably spent the most time (other than certain students) watching other regionals and getting to understand the game.

AND, mind you, although we did have 2 adults in the alliance station EVERY ROUND, it was our driver (me) who did almost all the communicating with other team members (strategy-wise). Personally, I have no preferance to talk to students or adults. I've had the privilage to be both successful and unsuccessful with both. Our adults were there to keep things calm on the field and make sure the decided strategy (which had to be communicated well) was carried out to perfection.

I think that we, as students, need to recognize exactly HOW much time adults actually spend on this project, too. Unless your team is 100% student run (there are a lot of you out there), I think adults deserve a chance to be in the alliance station. I can only imagine the level of happiness to see something they spent a lot of time on, working in matches.

All student coaches would be cool...I just think we need to appreciate a little...

Just my personal thoughts...

Chris, #368

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Pamela at 04/12/2001 3:18 PM EST


Student on team #166, Techno Insanity, from Merrimack High School and Texas Instruments.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Team Merrimack 166 has very little adults involved in our program (which is a shame, we're working on it). But for as long as I've been on the team, 3 yrs, we've had a student only drive team (including coaches) I like doing things that way because it gets students involved not only in building, designing, and driving, it also gives students a chance to be more involved in strategizing and works on their quick thinking skills, I would like to see more teams with at least one student coach!
Pamela 166

Each teams' decision
 

Posted by Erin at 04/12/2001 5:03 PM EST


College Student on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Team 65 has these two great coaches, Norm and Ken (you've probably heard of Ken, pretty popular guy...) Anyway, I think they are great coaches. The students just love them, they listen to each other, and they are very communicative people (yes, and they ARE engineers!).
However, not all teachers/engineers are the same way. Some engineers lose the spirit of FIRST when they get on the field. It no longer is a game to them, just a great big POWER STRUGGLE. They yell at the students and dont communicate well with each other and shout mismatched directions into the drivers' ears.
What I am trying to say is, there are great engineer/coaches out there (you know who you are) but some of them just don't make the cut. I think it should be up to students and adults together, like a consensus. Each side should decide why there should or shouldn't be certain coaches (just because they are your only two engineers doesnt mean they should be your only two options!). I mean, only the drivers know how they operate in relation to their coach, and if you aren't listening to them, then you aren't letting your drivers perform in the best manner they can. Agreement, or rather, consensus, is probably a good way of deciding who should be coach.
Don't let it get so far as to leave the mission in the dust- remember, FIRST belongs to the students, and without them, everyone else wouldn't be here.

Response would be appreciated.
-Erin

Re: No more adult coaches... noooooo
 

Posted by nick237 at 04/12/2001 8:35 PM EST


Engineer on team #237, sie h2o bots, from Watertown high school ct and sieman co.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



After reading all the post below I came to this conclusion...
This year we had the same three students on stage, two drivers and the human player. We had Four coaches and we each took turns to enjoy the game on stage, so the students had more stage time than the adults.
Prior to the start of each game while waitting in the wings our team went up and down all the other teams and said that if we were alied with you this is what we can do, then we asked what they could do.
One game we were teamed up with three rookies and as it was only the second game they looked at us wide eyed. The students in our team said if you can do this then we can do that??? The result was our 2nd highest score of the week end. During our 6th game a student on another team told our driver to follow behind the first bot over the ramp and as soon as he drove off then for us to back up and reset the ramp for the 3rd robot, this was an amazing sugestion and I wondered why I had not thought of this time saving manuver my self. this game was our best in the competition.
We had an great team of students and adults and even in this amazing team we had good and " not so good ". The students earned thier place on the stage as did the adults and to take away the thrill of being a continued part of the construction proccess would reduce the motivation for many.
When many of the students during the building period are asleep in their beds because they have school the next morning, many of the adults are diligently working all night hard on the robot and then they would go directly to work for another 8 hours in the morning.
There were students who would have stood side by side and hour by hour with the adults but the school set rules and we had to send them home by 10pm.
Student learn from the adults but the adults equaly learn from the students, its this interaction that must be preserved.
To all you students who believe that adults should not be part of the magical moment think before firing us, were all kids at heart.
Thanks for listening.
nick. a 200lbs 53 year old adult student.





: XCATS -#191- have had only student coaches for the last 3 years. You have to qualify and it is usually seniors.
: With the heartbreak this year, of adults pushing the red button, I think we should think seriously about all student coaches for next year.
: Perhaps only rookie teams could have one adult coach.

: After all who's competition is this anyway??

Well said, Nick (EOM)
 

Posted by Joe Johnson at 04/12/2001 10:12 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Re: No more adult coaches... noooooo
Posted by nick237 on 04/12/2001 8:35 PM EST:



EOM = End Of Message

When the line between 'adult' and 'student' is thin..
 

Posted by colleen - T190 at 04/13/2001 2:32 AM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



I think Deej spoke of it somewhere down the line on this thread, but he and I were on-field coaches for T190 this year.. together we have 12 years of FIRST experience and 8 years of driving experience (symmetrical too.. just the way Ken likes it ;-).. and both our positions on the team plus experience lead into us being chosen to coach..

But both being only sophomores (and recent transfers to WPI).. what are we, adult or student?

When we're out there.. unless you know us, you'd prolly think we're high schoolers.. and if such was the case 'not want to listen to us'.. but fact is, I listen to the person with the best ideas.. 'student' or 'adult'...

And I found that it was less that the 'adults' didn't want to listen as the 'students' didn't... adults tending to be a bit more compromising actually.. where as students went in with a set objective (most likely and normally decided with the help of advisors pre-match) and refused to comply to the alliance's needs...

It was a problem all around.. but I don't think it's fair to discrimate one group from the next.. especially when on some teams they are barely distinguishable..

The real problem was the different desires of teams.. in regionals it tended to be that teams wanted to 'do their thing' so they could know it worked and debug, etc.. in nationals it came more into some people aimed for 100points, some for 200pts, 300, 400, 500, etc.. and those varying desires made it difficult to convince teams to 'go for it all'.. when they were perfectly happy with less..

That's a problem with a game you can't 'win'.. there isn't really as common of a goal for teams as FIRST would like to think...

And as for adult coaches hitting the buttons.. maybe instead of worrying about age and stature of your coaches, worry about how well they know the rules.. it never happened on T190, although we can readily be mistaken for high schoolers, cause we knew the rules..

It's not all adults, it's certain adults.
 

Posted by bill whitley at 04/13/2001 8:04 AM EST


Student on team #70, Auto City Bandits, from Powers Catholic High School and Kettering University.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



I've changed my stance and now think that adults should be allowed to go out as coaches. Earlier in the season I advocated against this, I think that was wrong now. I think that the problem doenst lie in the age of the coach, but if an adult coach wants to deal only with another adult coach, that is a problem. I had this happen to me during a match at nationals. I have also experienced coaches who instantly think they know more about the game because they are older. I agree with Andy's point of having someone out there to take responsibility, that was my job this year (as well as strategy & drive), and it was a toughest one.
I think its just a few rotten apple coaches that have given many adult coaches a bad rep. I saw a good many bad coaches, both student and adult, and many good ones, both student & adult.

Bill
Team #70

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Erica Schindler at 04/13/2001 3:05 PM EST


Other on team #177, Bobcat Robotics, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells/ ONSI Corporation.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Student coached teams earn my total respect. I wanted to be a coach for all four years that i was in FIRST, but i was never able to, always being bumped by an adult on the team, i am sorry to whom this may offend, however, who is this competition really for? It is for the students to learn and succeed on their own. What do the students learn if they are never given the opportunity to coach the team. Who cares if you win or loose, there are so few winners in this competition, and winning isnt what it is all about. Who cares if the adult knows more than the student? why doesnt that adult just teach the student? This competition is for the students, and should be done ALL by the students, only having the adults as a support system. My vote goes for all student coaches, which means to me, no college kids, or adult team members up on stage at all. To all the teams out there who use adult coaches, think about your team, and think about the capabilities of all those students on your team, it might surprise you, but there is most likely someone burning to be up on stage, and really desiring to be a coach, dont deny them that position. Let the kids do it....
thats all i have to say
erica schindler
alumna from team 177....

It all goes back to what Dean says all the time...
 

Posted by Kate T190 at 04/13/2001 6:33 PM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy of Math and Science and Worcester Polytechnic Institute.


In Reply to: Re: No more adult coaches
Posted by Erica Schindler on 04/13/2001 3:05 PM EST:



It's something along the lines of this competition is to INSPIRE students and to put the engineers in the spotlights for the kids instead of sports figures. He doesn't tell everyone HOW to inspire the students that participate.

Different folks, different strokes. Everyone gets inspired differently, and teams decide on how they're going to run their team by however they feel is best. This includes choosing who's going to coach on stage. Some students react well to adult coaching while others relate better to how other students coach.

Whatever problems there have been with adult coaches has been on a case by case basis. If adults don't listen to students (or vice versa) when strategizing, there isn't really anything you can do about it at that time. Teams can work to make sure that both the students and engineers understand what needs to happen and that whatever decisions that are made are in the best interest of the whole alliance.

Personally, I haven't had much of a problem with student to engineer relationships on the various teams I've been on. I've earned a lot of respect from a lot of different people, and they have the same respect from me.

I think a lot of what happens up on stage might have something to do with how individuals carry themselves and present their ideas. If someone is just yelling or being stubborn, their ideas likely won't be well taken. But if an individual carries themself with confidence, understanding, and willingness to listen, I believe that things will go smoothly.

A lot of people in FIRST have my respect, both student and adult coaches. Not just coaches, but that's who's being focused on in this thread. You know who you are. :)

I guess that's enough rambling for now. Best of luck to everyone with what "off season" competitions they're attending. Looking forward to seeing everyone whenever possible. :)

T190 XO
Kate

Re: No more adult coaches
 

Posted by Anthony S. at 04/14/2001 6:07 PM EST


Student on team #442, Knight Riders, from Lee High School and NASA/BOEING/MEVATEC.


In Reply to: No more adult coaches
Posted by julia walsh on 04/12/2001 8:02 AM EST:



Wow Julia, look what that one comment did.

My team would not have functioned at all without adults. I heard a lot of complaints from fellow team members about our adults "shooting down" thier ideas. Well the way I see it is, they are pro's. They know what they are talking about. They have Master degree's. And some of us don't even have high school diplomas yet! So stop complaining. I think if my team would let students run the whole thing, we wouldn't have had such an awesome robot. Yes, our adults did most of the designing and construction, but that was during thier work time(our school time). they even spent late nights. On our last night, they stayed until 4:00 A.M. putting our most valuable tool (our balancing tool) on the robot. Only two students stayed that night and one of them was the Engineer's son. So all in all, all teams need at least one adult. For designing, construction, and coaching. If we didn't have adults behind the glass, then other adults wouldn't have listened to us.

My $0.05
Anthony Steele II Team 442
Human Player