Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Hi everyone,
For the last year our first affiliate partner in Michigan has been setting non-standard age ranges for our FLL and FTC programs. They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams.

We need the FIRST community to help to bring these issues out in the open and make sure that this doesn't happen in other states. We are asking US FIRST to require all affiliate partners to follow the age requirements as publish by US FIRST. If you have a moment, please consider signing our petition:

https://www.change.org/p/us-first-fi...liate-partners

The more signatures we get, the better chance we will have of getting US FIRST to hear our case. Thanks for your support, Carla

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Do you have any data to support that FiM is "killing" FLL?

You have made emotional and anecdotal cases for disagreeing with the structure FiM has established. Do you have data to support this petition?

Namely, here are some basic data points to look at:

• Jr. FLL Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
• FLL Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
• FTC Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
• FRC Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally

These statistics shouldn't be too hard to find for someone who knows where to look.

The results of this information could then be extrapolated to students impacted by the progression of FIRST programs in Michigan, and an informed conclusion as to the effectiveness of FiM's model could be better evaluated.

I'm very interested in hearing some data that supports or refutes the effectiveness of the FiM model.

-Mike

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Do have a reason to why they are doing it? After all, I'm sure they are more interested in starting more teams than restrict them.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Okay, just to be totally clear here (and the petition makes this relatively clear), FiM is not killing FLL. FiM has the position that FLL should be elementary schools only, FTC should be middle, and FRC should be high. Therefore there is less support for teams that deviate from this (although there's nothing FiM can do to teams that register despite not following FiM's structure).

Now, I'm aware of very reasonable opposition to this position. I know our FRC team is considering starting some intra-team VEX/FTC teams, and FiM's preferred structure does make us more likely to go with VEX. Does that mean FiM is necessarily wrong in their position? That's up for everybody to decide. I doubt we'll hear FiM's side of the story because their decision-maker(s) don't tend to get involved on this forum.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Hi Mike,
Team growth would be hard to quantify as a state grant helped new teams start while some old ones have left due to the changes. So I am unable to define the difference between the two. I don't want to give false information.

The biggest problem is that myself and other coaches are watching Michigan kids who are not ready for the next level of FIRST pushed into these teams or simply leave the program. The overlapping ages as specified by the US FIRST organization allowed the kids that one extra year or two they needed to be a bit more prepared to move up. By removing the overlap they have put all students under a blanket statement with no room to accommodate any special needs.

This is my 12th year coaching and over the years about 1 in 4 of our students who would not have been ready to move up to the next level are now pushed up to FTC by these rules.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

I love data as much as the next person on CD, but the key problem in this instance is that growth statistics will be heavily skewed by the state grant money that's been thrown at FRC and FTC the last two years.

In any case, the narrow eligibility for FTC has been a point of frustration for me for years now, and lowering the FLL cutoff age is also a disappointment. I feel like 5th graders won't be able to get the full depth of experience out of FLL at 10 years old with just one prior year of competition, especially given the breadth of strategy involved in both the robot game and the research project.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Is it shown that deviating from the "recommend" as a team more successful?

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

As part of the FIRST organization, teams across the country should have a similar experience. Allowing certain state to deviate from what the national criteria is starting to cause an issue. We have coaches forming teams with the national age standards, only to find out later that Michigan is not following the standards and they are not allowed to participate.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

An email went out earlier this week that made it pretty clear that teams outside of the FiM progression will not be supported (or possibly not allowed?). The beginning of the message is below...

So even if we were to register a middle school FLL team so that we could get a field set up kit we still wouldn't have competition opportunities, which puts quite a damper on the experience.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Are the Affiliates doing this with FIRST's approval?

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Are they specifically disallowing teams from forming? If so, how?

If not, are they merely not supporting teams that don't fit such criteria?

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

So, what you're saying is that this issue cannot be quantified or proved to be an issue using anything other than anecdotes and opinions?

Disclaimer - I've always thought the FLL age going through 14 was wrong, an 8 yr old cannot compete against a 14 yr old. FTC has always felt weird to me getting shoe horned in a space that directly competes with two programs. If I were to be granted unlimited power to make decisions on these programs I'd probably have FLL (8-12), FTC (11-15) FRC (14-18) as the suggested ranges which closely matches what FiM is doing from the sounds of it.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Teams that fall outside of the age criteria are not allowed to compete. Our FTC hit this problem last year when we had two 9th graders on the team.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

I don't have any special knowledge, but I don't see how a team could be stopped from registering for all events. FiM is in charge of all FLL, FTC, FRC events in Michigan, so it seems like that team would have to compete out-of-state. But not allow the team to register at all? I don't think that's possible.

Also, we all know Michigan (/FiM) plays by its own rules sometimes. My thinking would be that FIRST allows regions to do their own thing as a test to see if those regional ideas are good. For example, the district model was pretty good.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

The power of FLL is not from the competition but from the experience. Going through the research, the leadership and the robot are all part of an great learning and growing experience. I have students that are in 4th grade and it has never bothered them once that there are 14 year old students on the team. They are very happy to learn from the older kids and grow with them.