Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

I was linking this for the email addresses.

I don't know, I'm not sure I disagree with you either. I just wanted to point out that FIRST's mission statement and FiM's are NOT the same.

Don Bossi even said at championships (I'm paraphrasing, don't remember the exact quote) that the only organization that believes FRC in every high school is an ideal/viable solution is FiM.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Don't bother trying to contact FiM. I have several middle school FLL teams and am in the process of starting more, so this thread has concerned me. I sent an email this week outlining what was said and my concerns. I received a one line reply today that an email would be sent to FLL teams in the next few days. No information.

I'm deeply invested in this topic, and I have a lot to say. I'm holding off until there is official, public information available, though.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Questions I have in reading this thread:

1) Do we understand how many (whether greater than or equal to zero) students will now not be able to participate in FIRST? In their preferred program? In any robotics program? Is FiM making an active effort to prevent this, and can someone knowledgeable assess that effort?

2) Do the FiM/MI grants sufficiently offset costs for teams that need to convert from FLL to FTC? Is this transition being facilitated, and how well?

3) Does the dislike around telling teams what to do extend to the current worldwide age cutoffs? (I'm not saying this negates any argument, not the least because change itself is important.) FLL is capped at 14yo in North America and 16yo externally. Are there 15/17-year-olds who want to continue in FLL or are in places without alternatives? What if any help happens there that might be adopted here?

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Can someone enlighten me on this question - is it possible for non-high school teams (homeschool, 4-H groups, community teams, etc) to receive funds from the state/FiM for FTC and/or FRC?

To another group of individuals (maybe) - is VRC strong enough in Michigan that teams/organizations could go that route without significant difficulty (e.g. needing to travel outside of Michigan to compete at all)? Really, is the suggestion that a high school or high school aged group compete in VRC as an alternative a viable alternative?

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

State of Michigan Grant funds for FTC/FRC - The emails from last year are pretty clear that only public school districts may benefit from the state grant funding. Private schools, community groups, etc. are not eligible. I'm not sure where charter schools fall.

Viability of VRC in Michigan - VRC is in general a very accessible option in Michigan for middle school and high school level teams. There were at least 25 VRC events in Michigan last season (2014-2015), as well as 9ish VEX IQ events for elementary school/middle school age group.

(There's a number of other posts that I'd like to respond to as well, but this one was a straightforward response)

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

#2 - FTC is essentially free to start teams with the amount of grant money FiM provides.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

The state funding is handled through public schools only. Our team is a community team, so we affiliated with an ISD (Intermediate School District, like a county school.) The state allowed homeschoolers and private school students to participate on the team, as well as public schools students, under the umbrella of the school district.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

FYI: The material at these links describe the eligibility requirements Michigan was using at some point (I don't recall what academic year they are for). More than one type of "school" is eligible, but I'm not familiar enough with the nuances of Michigan education to interpret everything there for someone else. Interested folks should follow the links.

One thing that is obvious is that the tax dollars involved (Michigan and NASA) are being aimed at schools, not at communities (communities include schools, and many other groups that are fine vehicles for accomplishing broad STEM inspiration).

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

The grant money from the MI public schools is for public schools, I'm not sure why you keep suggesting that it should go anywhere but public schools. I'm sure doing so would violate and least a couple of rules about spending public school money.

MI has nothing to do with NASA grants and the NASA grants are not targeted to teams at public schools, I know of community teams that have received the grant in the past.

The FIRST grant also mentioned in some of the materials again has nothing to do with MI and is not open to only public schools. Again I know of teams that were not at a public school that have received that grant in the past.


While we are at it FiM's reason for being is not to promote or facilitate robotics or STEM it is to promote FIRST in the state of MI. So when they went to the MI public schools and asked for grants for FIRST programs that is what they were doing, asking for funding for FIRST programs, not robotics or STEM activites even though FIRST is robotics and a STEM activity.

I've seen something similar brought up in regards to the OSPI (Office of Superintendent of Public Instruction) grants in Washington state. "Why aren't they available to start or run VEX teams?" Because it was members of Washington FIRST Robotics and FIRST Robotics Competition teams who lobbied the Legislature and OSPI for the funding. "Why aren't non-Public schools eligible?" Because the Washington state public education funds can only be given to public schools per the laws of WA state.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

The issue in Michigan isn't really about which teams FiM gives grants to. The issue is which ages FiM will allow to participate in FLL (and FTC). Here's part of the e-mail that was sent out by FiM:

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

That part: "This is the only way to have team in Michigan." concerns me.

Translation #1: Either somebody didn't copy this right, or somebody needs more English classes. Probably the latter is the case.

Translation #2: All the alternate approaches discussed previously are OUT. Regardless of whether the students, teachers, or schools are ready for this progression, they have to make it. That's FiM's line, and they're sticking to it. Whether it's a good idea or not is up for debate.



I'm going to make a prediction. I don't know if it's possible to track it, but I suspect that the number of high schools involved in FIRST will FALL, rather than RISE. And I'm going to go out even farther and predict that the driving factor--for once--won't be the lack of mentors. It'll be the lack of funding, or the lack of administration support for playing in FRC. I REALLY hope I'm wrong on both counts.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Apologies if this has been answered and I missed it, but I wanted to ask again:

Is this being done with FIRST HQ's awareness and blessing?

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Probably it is, but in the same sense that District competition was -- FiM began as a revolution, and was later called a 'trial program' by HQ.

As the late sixteenth century courtier* Sir John Harington is famously quoted, "Treason never prospers -- what's the reason? For, if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

Will the FiM model for progression through FIRST progams prosper? Watch and see, or better yet jump in and help.

-----

*Sir John's career was marked by many episodes of royal disfavor. He was more skilled at seeking forgiveness than permission. He is credited with inventing the flush toilet.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

I think the discussions here boils down to who should have control over decisions. I debated for a while if I should just be quiet and stay out of this. I decided to explain where I come from and share my personal opinion.

I coached youth sports for many years from T-ball to soccer. My kids were involved in many other competitive sports from swimming to tennis to golf. I had to deal with parents as the coach or have experience with how other parents on the team demand from the coaches. My conclusion is it is very difficult to keep all the parents happy if their primary motive is only advocating for their son or daughter. In general parents are not happy with fixed age groups. Some parents want their kids move up to play or practice with older or better kids because they think their kids are more advanced than their peers. Some parents want their kids to stay back so their kids will feel more successful. The only way to keep all parents happy is if the league allow parents to decide which group to sign up their kids. Even then some other parents will not be happy because they don't want their kids playing with other kids who are not at their level. It never ends. Another way to keep parents happy is to let them decide what position/role their kids will play on the team and how much playing time. Obviously this would not be best for the team which is why there are coaches who have to make these decisions.

Now let's talk about the FIRST program. I have had parents who want their 8 year olds to be on FLL teams because they are more mature and more advanced according to them. There are also parents who want their 7th and 8th graders stay on FLL teams instead of FTC teams (in Michigan). There are parents who want their 8th graders on FRC teams and I have parents who want their 9th graders to be able to do both FTC and FRC. They all have their reasons: maturity, convenience, logistics, being with friends etc. To keep all the parents happy in our school district, we will have to make FLL K-8, FTC 5-12 and FRC 6-12, and parents will decide what they want to sign up. It is all about having control. Is that practical? No.

Do I agree with all of FiM's decisions over the years? The honest answer is no. It is because some things were not convenient for me or it didnot benefit me or any other me me me reasons. Do I support FiM's decisions? The answer is 100% yes. I will do everything I can to make sure what FiM decided will have a chance of being successful. It is about trusting they do it for good reasons. It is about those decisions benefiting the most number of teams or the FIRST programs in Michigan in general.

Do I like the FLL, FTC and FRC cutoff in Michigan? No. It makes my life more difficult because it is more work for us (in our district). But I will accept their decision and move on, and I will fully support it.

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 

Very well said, and I'm in the same boat. For reference, as of this year I will have 1 son in high school, one in middle, and one in elementary. Last year, I coached their (non-school affiliated) FLL team which was funded through grants from a number of local Michigan companies. This next year, each will be on a different team. You want to talk about logistical headaches? It's going to be a pain in the posterior.

Yet I understand the long term goals, I see what FiM has done so far in Michigan, and I'm going to support them 100%. In a different thread I saw someone called a 'FIRST apologist' because they stuck behind First decisions. I guess I'm an FiM apologist, at least until I see their long term decisions start hurting the MAJORITY of the teams in the state, rather than helping them.