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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
From what I have heard in passing over the years, FiM feels that the High School FTC program detracts from potential FRC teams, as running an FTC team is much cheaper and thus more appealing to many high schools.
Since FiMs (apparent) goal is to expand FRC as much as possible in Michigan, they pushed the other programs down to lower age levels to prevent overlap. That said, IMO one of the reasons FTC has had such a hard time getting off the ground (given that it is the smallest of the FIRST programs), is because the age overlap prevents it from having it's own niche (FLL is generally viewed as FIRST's middle school program, while FRC is viewed as the high school program). If FiM can get enough middle schools on board, you could actually end up seeing a huge increase in the number of FTC teams down the road. Whether this policy is sustainable or not remains to be seen. |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
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Regardless, FIRST Programs in Michigan have been under FiM's leadership for 7 years now. Growth Numbers over 7 years (as compared to the rest of the country) will give insight into whether or not FiM has proven to be an effective steering committee for either the entire progression of FIRST Programs, only some of them, or none of at all. This data would in no way discount the experiences and trends each Coach/Mentor has seen in their teams/regions/spheres of influence. I'm simply interested in the macro-level data that can provide a different perspective. -Mike |
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I agree and also worry that this might be a pilot program that will have consequences across the country and/or world. That is why we are trying to get people to speak out now so that FIRST hears us. I know a lot of coaches from all my years here in Michigan and many are afraid to speak out against these changes out of fear that their teams will be punished for it. |
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Michigan on the other hand is now limiting and leaving out the students who are not ready to move up. All students learn at different paces and some are simple not ready at 13 to move up. I don't want to see those children left out. |
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So we're not arguing IF there should be a cutoff, since you clearly are ok with a cutoff as has existed for nearly 2 decades. You're arguing is that FiM's cutoff is too low? So this we can put something more than an opinion. What are the primary differences between FLL and FTC from a student development stand point? Please be specific. Based on those, what is the typical age at which 80% of students have reached this development? What, if any sort of accommodations need to be made for the 20% of students that don't reach this checkpoint? For example: an appeals process to "you're in 9th grade you can't compete in FLL even if you emotionally aren't ready for FRC" Edit: Corsetto - try harder. The mental image is totally worth it. |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
FiM has always tried new things for Michigan. The district system was tested in Michigan, and FiM has turned it into a very fluid system. MSC this year is proof of that. 101 of 102 teams having an average of over 100 points shows the level of competition that Michigan has, and I think there's a lot going on in the entire FiM program that assists with this.
These statements are my own and may not be the opinions of FiM I personally love the system that FiM has. I think this system should be incorporated by FIRST for these reasons: I believe this system works out so well because every group is interacting with each other. FRC students coach JFLL teams and mentor FLL/FTC teams, and FTC teams are encouraged to mentor FLL teams. JFLL kids learn are introduced to research and legos, FLL kids learn autonomous programming and presentation skills, FTC kids learn how to build a robot that can directly compete against others, and explore community outreach, and FRC kids do all of this at a very high competitive level. Each program builds upon the previous, and this is why Michigan FRC teams have that level of quality. I don't know the exact numbers, but I know JFLL, FTC, and FRC teams have increased in FiM every year for a while now. The last FTC State event had to be split into two divisions and move into a new venue, and MSC had 102 teams in it. As for FLL shrinking, I do not know if that's true or not. As for myself, I would have loved to have joined FTC as a student if there was a team in my school already. The gap between FLL and FRC is huge, and I would recommend every student to follow FiM's guidelines. Having coached a FTC team that went to Iowa City Super-Regionals, I can go on in great detail of the difference between High School FTC teams and Jr. High School FTC teams. However, I think those students are missing out on the bigger challenge which is FRC. TL;DR: I believe FiM has an excellent system, and FIRST should adopt these guidelines. FIRST's goal is to increase the quanity and quality of FRC teams, and this system is the best way of doing so. |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
I didn't start doing robotics until my freshman year of high school. I did not go through all the levels of FIRST. While I did not start with FTC, I started with Vex. There was no way I could have jumped straight to FRC that year. Vex gave me a solid knowledge base about the basics of robotics and the competition environment. It would have been way too intimidating to have started in FRC.
Just my 2¢. |
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FiM has been more explicit in their goals to grow and sustain FRC in their state. |
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I am glad you are bringing something to discuss on CD. However using a sensational title and less than accurate facts and no data to convince people is not the way to do it. If you want to discuss this, please state all the facts and not just the ones that you want people to know. People outside of Michigan are not going to understand it completely. You are using scare tactics and asking people to sign a petition without giving them accurate and complete facts. |
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Edit: Woops I misread OP. They have forced this on you. Disregard my argument. Quote:
The thread title implies that Michigan will "kill" FLL with its model. I think it's fair to say the title is quite the hyberbole and that Michigan's numbers prove it is not killing the program. |
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...VRTZ VE&gid=3 2012-2013 FiM FTC Teams: 57 2013-2014 FiM FTC Teams: 166 2014-2015 FiM FTC Teams: 203 For FLL, I could only get data from last season (454) as well as teams that have already signed up for next year (27). I as well as many others do not appreciate the inflamatory title (though I imagine it helps get attention). "FiM is growing FTC and FLL, but not following the normal FIRST rules in regards to age limits, but has hugely supported via adminisitering state and coproate grants" just doesn't have the same ring... I recommend discussing the policy with those in charge. I don't think you will get them to change their minds, but you may get a better understanding of their perspective. |
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