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-   -   Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137303)

adias.angel 21-05-2015 14:23

Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Hi everyone,
For the last year our first affiliate partner in Michigan has been setting non-standard age ranges for our FLL and FTC programs. They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams.

We need the FIRST community to help to bring these issues out in the open and make sure that this doesn't happen in other states. We are asking US FIRST to require all affiliate partners to follow the age requirements as publish by US FIRST. If you have a moment, please consider signing our petition:

https://www.change.org/p/us-first-fi...liate-partners

The more signatures we get, the better chance we will have of getting US FIRST to hear our case. Thanks for your support, Carla

Michael Corsetto 21-05-2015 14:40

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Do you have any data to support that FiM is "killing" FLL?

You have made emotional and anecdotal cases for disagreeing with the structure FiM has established. Do you have data to support this petition?

Namely, here are some basic data points to look at:
  • Jr. FLL Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
  • FLL Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
  • FTC Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
  • FRC Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally

These statistics shouldn't be too hard to find for someone who knows where to look.

The results of this information could then be extrapolated to students impacted by the progression of FIRST programs in Michigan, and an informed conclusion as to the effectiveness of FiM's model could be better evaluated.

I'm very interested in hearing some data that supports or refutes the effectiveness of the FiM model.

-Mike

MichaelMcQuinn 21-05-2015 14:43

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Do have a reason to why they are doing it? After all, I'm sure they are more interested in starting more teams than restrict them.

Basel A 21-05-2015 14:48

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Okay, just to be totally clear here (and the petition makes this relatively clear), FiM is not killing FLL. FiM has the position that FLL should be elementary schools only, FTC should be middle, and FRC should be high. Therefore there is less support for teams that deviate from this (although there's nothing FiM can do to teams that register despite not following FiM's structure).

Now, I'm aware of very reasonable opposition to this position. I know our FRC team is considering starting some intra-team VEX/FTC teams, and FiM's preferred structure does make us more likely to go with VEX. Does that mean FiM is necessarily wrong in their position? That's up for everybody to decide. I doubt we'll hear FiM's side of the story because their decision-maker(s) don't tend to get involved on this forum.

adias.angel 21-05-2015 14:54

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto (Post 1483452)
Do you have any data to support that FiM is "killing" FLL?

You have made emotional and anecdotal cases for disagreeing with the structure FiM has established. Do you have data to support this petition?

Namely, here are some basic data points to look at:
  • Jr. FLL Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
  • FLL Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
  • FTC Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
  • FRC Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally

These statistics shouldn't be too hard to find for someone who knows where to look.

The results of this information could then be extrapolated to students impacted by the progression of FIRST programs in Michigan, and an informed conclusion as to the effectiveness of FiM's model could be better evaluated.

I'm very interested in hearing some data that supports or refutes the effectiveness of the FiM model.

-Mike

Hi Mike,
Team growth would be hard to quantify as a state grant helped new teams start while some old ones have left due to the changes. So I am unable to define the difference between the two. I don't want to give false information.

The biggest problem is that myself and other coaches are watching Michigan kids who are not ready for the next level of FIRST pushed into these teams or simply leave the program. The overlapping ages as specified by the US FIRST organization allowed the kids that one extra year or two they needed to be a bit more prepared to move up. By removing the overlap they have put all students under a blanket statement with no room to accommodate any special needs.

This is my 12th year coaching and over the years about 1 in 4 of our students who would not have been ready to move up to the next level are now pushed up to FTC by these rules.

Allison K 21-05-2015 14:58

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto (Post 1483452)
Do you have any data to support that FiM is "killing" FLL?

You have made emotional and anecdotal cases for disagreeing with the structure FiM has established. Do you have data to support this petition?

Namely, here are some basic data points to look at:
  • Jr. FLL Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
  • FLL Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
  • FTC Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally
  • FRC Team Growth Annually in FIM compared to Nationally

These statistics shouldn't be too hard to find for someone who knows where to look.

The results of this information could then be extrapolated to students impacted by the progression of FIRST programs in Michigan, and an informed conclusion as to the effectiveness of FiM's model could be better evaluated.

I'm very interested in hearing some data that supports or refutes the effectiveness of the FiM model.

-Mike

I love data as much as the next person on CD, but the key problem in this instance is that growth statistics will be heavily skewed by the state grant money that's been thrown at FRC and FTC the last two years.

In any case, the narrow eligibility for FTC has been a point of frustration for me for years now, and lowering the FLL cutoff age is also a disappointment. I feel like 5th graders won't be able to get the full depth of experience out of FLL at 10 years old with just one prior year of competition, especially given the breadth of strategy involved in both the robot game and the research project.

MichaelMcQuinn 21-05-2015 14:58

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Basel A (Post 1483457)
Okay, just to be totally clear here (and the petition makes this relatively clear), FiM is not killing FLL. FiM has the position that FLL should be elementary schools only, FTC should be middle, and FRC should be high. Therefore there is less support for teams that deviate from this (although there's nothing FiM can do to teams that register despite not following FiM's structure).

Now, I'm aware of very reasonable opposition to this position. I know our FRC team is considering starting some intra-team VEX/FTC teams, and FiM's preferred structure does make us more likely to go with VEX. Does that mean FiM is necessarily wrong in their position? That's up for everybody to decide. I doubt we'll hear FiM's side of the story because their decision-maker(s) don't tend to get involved on this forum.

Is it shown that deviating from the "recommend" as a team more successful?

adias.angel 21-05-2015 15:00

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Basel A (Post 1483457)
Does that mean FiM is necessarily wrong in their position? That's up for everybody to decide.

As part of the FIRST organization, teams across the country should have a similar experience. Allowing certain state to deviate from what the national criteria is starting to cause an issue. We have coaches forming teams with the national age standards, only to find out later that Michigan is not following the standards and they are not allowed to participate.

Allison K 21-05-2015 15:03

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Basel A (Post 1483457)
Okay, just to be totally clear here (and the petition makes this relatively clear), FiM is not killing FLL. FiM has the position that FLL should be elementary schools only, FTC should be middle, and FRC should be high. Therefore there is less support for teams that deviate from this (although there's nothing FiM can do to teams that register despite not following FiM's structure).
...

An email went out earlier this week that made it pretty clear that teams outside of the FiM progression will not be supported (or possibly not allowed?). The beginning of the message is below...

Quote:

Teams
As the FIRST website opens for registration of FLL and FTC, I want to clarify how the Michigan progression differs from the US FIRST progression. Teams inside of Michigan must follow our progression. This is the only way to have team within Michigan.

Here is our progression:
FRC High School only
FTC Middle School only
(as defined by your school district)
FLL Late Elementary
(4th grade to end of your elementary schools)
Jr. FLL Early Elementary K-3

While no new middle school FLL teams may be started, there are some middle school FLL teams that have been around since before we started FTC. By next year (Sept 2016) they will all have to be aligned.
So even if we were to register a middle school FLL team so that we could get a field set up kit we still wouldn't have competition opportunities, which puts quite a damper on the experience.

Madison 21-05-2015 15:04

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Are the Affiliates doing this with FIRST's approval?

AdamHeard 21-05-2015 15:06

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Are they specifically disallowing teams from forming? If so, how?

If not, are they merely not supporting teams that don't fit such criteria?

Andrew Schreiber 21-05-2015 15:09

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Allison K (Post 1483459)
I love data as much as the next person on CD, but the key problem in this instance is that growth statistics will be heavily skewed by the state grant money that's been thrown at FRC and FTC the last two years.

So, what you're saying is that this issue cannot be quantified or proved to be an issue using anything other than anecdotes and opinions?

Disclaimer - I've always thought the FLL age going through 14 was wrong, an 8 yr old cannot compete against a 14 yr old. FTC has always felt weird to me getting shoe horned in a space that directly competes with two programs. If I were to be granted unlimited power to make decisions on these programs I'd probably have FLL (8-12), FTC (11-15) FRC (14-18) as the suggested ranges which closely matches what FiM is doing from the sounds of it.

adias.angel 21-05-2015 15:10

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1483464)
Are they specifically disallowing teams from forming? If so, how?

Teams that fall outside of the age criteria are not allowed to compete. Our FTC hit this problem last year when we had two 9th graders on the team.

Basel A 21-05-2015 15:12

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Allison K (Post 1483462)
An email went out earlier this week that made it pretty clear that teams outside of the FiM progression will not be supported (or possibly not allowed?). The beginning of the message is below...

So even if we were to register a middle school FLL team so that we could get a field set up kit we still wouldn't have competition opportunities, which puts quite a damper on the experience.

I don't have any special knowledge, but I don't see how a team could be stopped from registering for all events. FiM is in charge of all FLL, FTC, FRC events in Michigan, so it seems like that team would have to compete out-of-state. But not allow the team to register at all? I don't think that's possible.

Also, we all know Michigan (/FiM) plays by its own rules sometimes. My thinking would be that FIRST allows regions to do their own thing as a test to see if those regional ideas are good. For example, the district model was pretty good.

adias.angel 21-05-2015 15:12

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1483466)
Disclaimer - I've always thought the FLL age going through 14 was wrong, an 8 yr old cannot compete against a 14 yr old.

The power of FLL is not from the competition but from the experience. Going through the research, the leadership and the robot are all part of an great learning and growing experience. I have students that are in 4th grade and it has never bothered them once that there are 14 year old students on the team. They are very happy to learn from the older kids and grow with them.

cbale2000 21-05-2015 15:13

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
From what I have heard in passing over the years, FiM feels that the High School FTC program detracts from potential FRC teams, as running an FTC team is much cheaper and thus more appealing to many high schools.
Since FiMs (apparent) goal is to expand FRC as much as possible in Michigan, they pushed the other programs down to lower age levels to prevent overlap.

That said, IMO one of the reasons FTC has had such a hard time getting off the ground (given that it is the smallest of the FIRST programs), is because the age overlap prevents it from having it's own niche (FLL is generally viewed as FIRST's middle school program, while FRC is viewed as the high school program). If FiM can get enough middle schools on board, you could actually end up seeing a huge increase in the number of FTC teams down the road.

Whether this policy is sustainable or not remains to be seen.

Michael Corsetto 21-05-2015 15:13

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Allison K (Post 1483459)
I love data as much as the next person on CD, but the key problem in this instance is that growth statistics will be heavily skewed by the state grant money that's been thrown at FRC and FTC the last two years.

In any case, the narrow eligibility for FTC has been a point of frustration for me for years now, and lowering the FLL cutoff age is also a disappointment. I feel like 5th graders won't be able to get the full depth of experience out of FLL at 10 years old with just one prior year of competition, especially given the breadth of strategy involved in both the robot game and the research project.

I understand that FRC and FTC have benefited significantly from the State Grant money. Is there a possibility this grant money was rewarded due to the effectiveness and potential that the State saw in FiM's structure for the FIRST Progression of Programs? (This is an honest question, as I do not know the details surrounding the grant. I just don't want to write off the possibility that the growth is fueled by a grant that was rewarded, in part, by the advantageous competition structure established by FiM. The two could be related.)

Regardless, FIRST Programs in Michigan have been under FiM's leadership for 7 years now. Growth Numbers over 7 years (as compared to the rest of the country) will give insight into whether or not FiM has proven to be an effective steering committee for either the entire progression of FIRST Programs, only some of them, or none of at all.

This data would in no way discount the experiences and trends each Coach/Mentor has seen in their teams/regions/spheres of influence. I'm simply interested in the macro-level data that can provide a different perspective.

-Mike

Andrew Schreiber 21-05-2015 15:15

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by adias.angel (Post 1483470)
The power of FLL is not from the competition but from the experience. Going through the research, the leadership and the robot are all part of an great learning and growing experience. I have students that are in 4th grade and it has never bothered them once that there are 14 year old students on the team. They are very happy to learn from the older kids and grow with them.

I'm an alumni of the program, I know the experience quite well. I can tell you by the time I was 13 in the program I was BORED. This jives with other folks I know of who, after years in FLL, wanted to just move on to bigger robots. (This was all pre FTC/Vex)

adias.angel 21-05-2015 15:16

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Basel A (Post 1483469)
I don't have any special knowledge, but I don't see how a team could be stopped from registering for all events. FiM is in charge of all FLL, FTC, FRC events in Michigan, so it seems like that team would have to compete out-of-state. But not allow the team to register at all? I don't think that's possible.

Also, we all know Michigan (/FiM) plays by its own rules sometimes. My thinking would be that FIRST allows regions to do their own thing as a test to see if those regional ideas are good. For example, the district model was pretty good.

We can register but at the tournament we are told that we are not allowed to compete. We did try to go out of state last year but because our address was from Michigan we were told that they could not guarantee us a spot at a competition.

I agree and also worry that this might be a pilot program that will have consequences across the country and/or world. That is why we are trying to get people to speak out now so that FIRST hears us. I know a lot of coaches from all my years here in Michigan and many are afraid to speak out against these changes out of fear that their teams will be punished for it.

adias.angel 21-05-2015 15:19

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1483473)
I'm an alumni of the program, I know the experience quite well. I can tell you by the time I was 13 in the program I was BORED. This jives with other folks I know of who, after years in FLL, wanted to just move on to bigger robots. (This was all pre FTC/Vex)

I agree for some of our students at 13 it's best we move them up to FTC. With both Michigan and US FIRST guidelines we are able to do that.

Michigan on the other hand is now limiting and leaving out the students who are not ready to move up. All students learn at different paces and some are simple not ready at 13 to move up. I don't want to see those children left out.

Michael Corsetto 21-05-2015 15:20

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by adias.angel (Post 1483475)
I know a lot of coaches from all my years here in Michigan and many are afraid to speak out against these changes out of fear that their teams will be punished for it.

I'm trying to imagine Jim Zondag with a baseball bat ready to bust some knee caps, but I can't quite picture it...

Andrew Schreiber 21-05-2015 15:28

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by adias.angel (Post 1483476)
I agree for some of our students at 13 it's best we move them up to FTC. With both Michigan and US FIRST guidelines we are able to do that.

Michigan on the other hand is now limiting and leaving out the students who are not ready to move up. All students learn at different paces and some are simple not ready at 13 to move up. I don't want to see those children left out.


So we're not arguing IF there should be a cutoff, since you clearly are ok with a cutoff as has existed for nearly 2 decades. You're arguing is that FiM's cutoff is too low? So this we can put something more than an opinion.

What are the primary differences between FLL and FTC from a student development stand point? Please be specific.

Based on those, what is the typical age at which 80% of students have reached this development?

What, if any sort of accommodations need to be made for the 20% of students that don't reach this checkpoint? For example: an appeals process to "you're in 9th grade you can't compete in FLL even if you emotionally aren't ready for FRC"



Edit: Corsetto - try harder. The mental image is totally worth it.

Loose Screw 21-05-2015 15:37

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
FiM has always tried new things for Michigan. The district system was tested in Michigan, and FiM has turned it into a very fluid system. MSC this year is proof of that. 101 of 102 teams having an average of over 100 points shows the level of competition that Michigan has, and I think there's a lot going on in the entire FiM program that assists with this.

These statements are my own and may not be the opinions of FiM

I personally love the system that FiM has. I think this system should be incorporated by FIRST for these reasons:

I believe this system works out so well because every group is interacting with each other. FRC students coach JFLL teams and mentor FLL/FTC teams, and FTC teams are encouraged to mentor FLL teams.

JFLL kids learn are introduced to research and legos, FLL kids learn autonomous programming and presentation skills, FTC kids learn how to build a robot that can directly compete against others, and explore community outreach, and FRC kids do all of this at a very high competitive level. Each program builds upon the previous, and this is why Michigan FRC teams have that level of quality.

I don't know the exact numbers, but I know JFLL, FTC, and FRC teams have increased in FiM every year for a while now. The last FTC State event had to be split into two divisions and move into a new venue, and MSC had 102 teams in it.

As for FLL shrinking, I do not know if that's true or not. As for myself, I would have loved to have joined FTC as a student if there was a team in my school already. The gap between FLL and FRC is huge, and I would recommend every student to follow FiM's guidelines.

Having coached a FTC team that went to Iowa City Super-Regionals, I can go on in great detail of the difference between High School FTC teams and Jr. High School FTC teams. However, I think those students are missing out on the bigger challenge which is FRC.

TL;DR:
I believe FiM has an excellent system, and FIRST should adopt these guidelines. FIRST's goal is to increase the quanity and quality of FRC teams, and this system is the best way of doing so.

Jalerre 21-05-2015 16:07

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
I didn't start doing robotics until my freshman year of high school. I did not go through all the levels of FIRST. While I did not start with FTC, I started with Vex. There was no way I could have jumped straight to FRC that year. Vex gave me a solid knowledge base about the basics of robotics and the competition environment. It would have been way too intimidating to have started in FRC.

Just my 2¢.

Michael Corsetto 21-05-2015 16:08

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Loose Screw (Post 1483481)
FIRST's goal is to increase the quanity and quality of FRC teams, and this system is the best way of doing so.

This actually isn't FIRST's goal, although it might be a result of FIRST pursuing their stated Mission and Vision.

FiM has been more explicit in their goals to grow and sustain FRC in their state.

Ed Law 21-05-2015 17:10

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by adias.angel (Post 1483449)
Hi everyone,
For the last year our first affiliate partner in Michigan has been setting non-standard age ranges for our FLL and FTC programs. They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams.

We need the FIRST community to help to bring these issues out in the open and make sure that this doesn't happen in other states. We are asking US FIRST to require all affiliate partners to follow the age requirements as publish by US FIRST. If you have a moment, please consider signing our petition:

https://www.change.org/p/us-first-fi...liate-partners

The more signatures we get, the better chance we will have of getting US FIRST to hear our case. Thanks for your support, Carla

I believe you are violating CD rules for creating a separate account to post this. It sounds to me that you are part of a FIRST team.
I am glad you are bringing something to discuss on CD. However using a sensational title and less than accurate facts and no data to convince people is not the way to do it.
If you want to discuss this, please state all the facts and not just the ones that you want people to know. People outside of Michigan are not going to understand it completely. You are using scare tactics and asking people to sign a petition without giving them accurate and complete facts.

Mike Schreiber 21-05-2015 17:22

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by adias.angel (Post 1483449)
They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams.

I am a firm believer that what works in one region may not work in another. FiM's model works for them. They are not forcing it on you. Why require them to follow what you believe is the right model.

Edit: Woops I misread OP. They have forced this on you. Disregard my argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto (Post 1483452)
Do you have any data to support that FiM is "killing" FLL?

You have made emotional and anecdotal cases for disagreeing with the structure FiM has established. Do you have data to support this petition?

The above argument has nothing to do with growth of FRC. So I don't think data is really necessary to support this claim. Can't really argue with how someone else feels about a decision.

The thread title implies that Michigan will "kill" FLL with its model. I think it's fair to say the title is quite the hyberbole and that Michigan's numbers prove it is not killing the program.

Michael Corsetto 21-05-2015 17:33

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber (Post 1483500)
...Michigan's numbers prove...

What numbers?

Mike Schreiber 21-05-2015 17:40

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto (Post 1483504)
What numbers?

Michigan had 454 FLL teams last year. Not 'Killed'. I don't have historic data.

IKE 21-05-2015 17:46

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto (Post 1483452)
Do you have any data to support that FiM is "killing" FLL?

You have made emotional and anecdotal cases for disagreeing with the structure FiM has established. Do you have data to support this petition?
...snip...
I'm very interested in hearing some data that supports or refutes the effectiveness of the FiM model.

-Mike

From this link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...VRTZ VE&gid=3

2012-2013 FiM FTC Teams: 57
2013-2014 FiM FTC Teams: 166
2014-2015 FiM FTC Teams: 203

For FLL, I could only get data from last season (454) as well as teams that have already signed up for next year (27).

I as well as many others do not appreciate the inflamatory title (though I imagine it helps get attention). "FiM is growing FTC and FLL, but not following the normal FIRST rules in regards to age limits, but has hugely supported via adminisitering state and coproate grants" just doesn't have the same ring...

I recommend discussing the policy with those in charge. I don't think you will get them to change their minds, but you may get a better understanding of their perspective.

BSV 21-05-2015 17:46

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber (Post 1483507)
Michigan had 454 FLL teams last year. Not 'Killed'. I don't have historic data.

The telling number will be the number of FLL teams/kids involved in FLL next year, since (as I understand it) this change is for next season.

Ed Law 21-05-2015 18:00

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Michigan had 352 FLL teams in 2012 and 328 FLL teams in 2013. My numbers may be off by a little but these were the numbers last reported on the FiM website during those two years.

BSV 21-05-2015 18:40

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
I probably have a different perspective than those from a pure engineering background on this board. As a scientist and an FLL coach, I am impressed with the variety and ingenuity of the research/innovation put forth by FLL teams each year. The non-robot-building part of the competition is something that is only emphasized in FLL, and I don't think that most younger kids (3rd-5th grade) can reach their full potential -- or even have the proper skills -- to create a high-level project.

Because everyone on the team is forced to answer questions from the judges, I've had a group of six very shy 4th-6th graders who turned into outgoing 6th-8th graders by their 3rd year who were self-motivated and able to make presentations to and answer questions from any adults they met. I've had the good fortune to meet the kids and coaches of many top FLL teams from around the world the last two years, and they are a very well-rounded bunch.

I'd suggest reading some of the studies from Brandeis University about FLL and its impact, located on the FIRST Impacts page:

http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/impact

I hope that the folks at FiM, who in many ways set the direction of FIRST programs, have done some serious research into what is best for the kids and can share those data with the coaches/parents of the middle school students who will be affected by this drastic deviation from FLL requirements in the rest of the world. If FiM is the organization implementing the change, then they are the ones who should be presenting data on why it is needed rather than making a top-down decision that is forced on everyone just to make it fit a certain age/program progression. It seems like a majority of folks on here hate when top-down decisions from FIRST HQ are pressed onto everyone with no input or consensus from the community, so I am not sure why this would be any different than that.

Travis

Sperkowsky 21-05-2015 18:53

Our school district is looking at expanding first to the other schools and this is the structure they want to follow. As a small district we have to keep to one program per school and Im sure this is what fim is thinking too. Don't see anything wrong with it.

Madison 21-05-2015 18:59

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1483523)
Our school district is looking at expanding first to the other schools and this is the structure they want to follow. As a small district we have to keep to one program per school and Im sure this is what fim is thinking too. Don't see anything wrong with it.

You don't see a difference between electing to implement programs in the same manner as someone else and being prohibited from implementing them differently?

Sperkowsky 21-05-2015 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison (Post 1483526)
You don't see a difference between electing to implement programs in the same manner as someone else and being prohibited from implementing them differently?

I agree with FIM's structure to begin with and I think it's too late but I would vote on first themselves adopting it. Program overlaps never make much sense for instance.

I have a friend from gymnastics who goes to a school where they have a large frc program and 3 ftc programs. He was involved with ftc throughout middle school and loved it. Going into high school he continued ftc and expected to go to frc when the ftc season ended. However they got to the next round of competition. So now he has the option to go away from a program he has been doing for 3 years when they need it most or to graduate to the more advanced program to be a rookie member. With a lot of thinking he chose to do ftc for one last year. The next year he started with the same thing. Doing ftc and expecting to go to frc for the season. However the same thing happened. They made it to the next level and bam he had to choose ftc again once again missing out on the frc experience. This year I convinced him to come over to frc however now he is starting out doing frc as a junior. He lost 2 years of an experience that is much more intense, advanced and life changing. Not to say ftc isnt any of those things but it doesn't compare to frc.

That's where my view comes
from.

Michael Corsetto 21-05-2015 19:34

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1483530)
... an experience that is much more intense, advanced and life changing. Not to say ftc isnt any of those things but it doesn't compare to frc.

I recommend reading some of the great Summaries posted on FIRST Impact Page. In Particular, the 2011 Summary comparing FRC and FTC impact. The two compare quite equally in may categories. Of course, there are some notable differences between the two programs. I highly recommend reading through and seeing for yourself.

-Mike

Sperkowsky 21-05-2015 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto (Post 1483532)
I recommend reading some of the great Summaries posted on FIRST Impact Page. In Particular, the 2011 Summary comparing FRC and FTC impact. The two compare quite equally in may categories. Of course, there are some notable differences between the two programs. I highly recommend reading through and seeing for yourself.

-Mike

I read through it. I can honestly say I was surprised so thanks for the read. However it all depends on the program. I can see how in an frc team people can get swept to the side. In my team we have about 10 regular members less then the average ftc team. When I say regular I mean more then once a week.

Everyone has a part on our team and its usually somewhat substantial. Fgs look at my job list. However when I go to competitions and see the members sitting in the stands who don't know the difference between autonomous and teleop I see where this article is.

Ftc seems to be on average more engaging but frc if engaged properly can be much closer to the real world and provide experiences like none other.

ehochstein 21-05-2015 20:01

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1483530)
I agree with FIM's structure to begin with and I think it's too late but I would vote on FIRST themselves adopting it. Program overlaps never make much sense for instance.

I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster*, so we should create a law mandating that everyone believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. No one gets a choice, you're forced to do it.

*This post is purely an example, I will not admit to believing in or not believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

gblake 21-05-2015 20:33

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Hmmm,

Is this discussion about FIRST robotics programs? If it is, I think I know where to find the rules governing them.

Or

Is this discussion about Michigan robotics programs? I don't know where to find the rules governing them; but I would be interested in seeing them.

AND...

I'm starting to think my prediction that blurring the line between programs governed by FIRST rules, and programs governed by state rules (see the two or three CD threads with a theme of Yippee! our State has a robotics championship sanctioned by the state educational system...) would cause train wrecks; is being confirmed.

The sort of confusion being discussed in this thread is what you risk when when you try to blend a program like FIRST with with one run by some other organization that has overlapping, but not identical goals.

The risk is especially high when that other organization is (or is tightly tied to) a state educational bureaucracy (aka something with a lot of psychic momentum, and plans of its own). Remember, FRC/FTC/FLL are *not* *not* *not* school programs.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
  • I personally believe that if I can't find "it" in a ____ rulebook, or in an officially published exception (published by ____ and not by anyone else), then "it" is not a rule at ____ events.
  • Complementing that, if an event enforces rules that aren't ____ rules, the event isn't a ___ event.
You can fill in the blank with whatever entity you want: Little League Baseball, Prince William County Intermural Basketball, Dancing With the Stars, FIRST, VRC, or whatever you want.

Blake

Lisa Perez 21-05-2015 20:56

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Before this past season, I coached 8 years-worth of 7th and 8th grade FLL teams. Like many others upon hearing about the age guidelines, I was extremely concerned about the readiness of late elementary school students for the FLL program and middle school students for the FTC program. I gave those age guidelines a try with 2 FLL teams and 1 FTC team this past season. I'll tell you what - Those students had an absolute blast and have been raving about going through the FLL-FTC-FRC progression.

My main point is - If the resources are there, give the guidelines a try! You might find yourself pleasantly surprised about how well things go.

evanperryg 21-05-2015 21:00

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Law (Post 1483499)
I believe you are violating CD rules for creating a separate account to post this. It sounds to me that you are part of a FIRST team.
I am glad you are bringing something to discuss on CD. However using a sensational title and less than accurate facts and no data to convince people is not the way to do it.
If you want to discuss this, please state all the facts and not just the ones that you want people to know. People outside of Michigan are not going to understand it completely. You are using scare tactics and asking people to sign a petition without giving them accurate and complete facts.

Thank you. The entire starting post was rapid-fire generalization, which is both annoying and misleading. If anything, FiM is making a disjointed, poorly organized system into a streamlined, effective one. If FIRST wants to have a progression of programs that actually works, then FiM is going in the right direction by changing the age ranges. It'll probably be a rough adjustment, but it's an adjustment for the better.
FiM isn't killing FLL, here's what they're doing:
1)giving FLL a different age range, one that will even out competition between teams with older and younger students.
2)smoothing out the progression of programs to have no strange gray areas.
3)offering FTC the opportunity to no longer be that awkward stage between FLL and FRC by giving it its own unique age range.
4)pushing students to learn more about complex problem solving and critical thinking at a younger age by putting them in a more competitive setting at a younger age.

gblake 21-05-2015 21:02

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa Perez (Post 1483556)
... give the guidelines a try! ....

Are they guidelines or rules?
Quote:

Originally Posted by evanperryg (Post 1483559)
... If FIRST ..., then FiM is ....

Are you talking about FIRST programs or FiM programs?

FIRST has a set of programs and FIRST publishes rules that govern them.

What does FiM have/do?

I realize that I am being a gadfly, but these questions are the elephant in the room.

kgzak 21-05-2015 21:04

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Allison K (Post 1483459)
I feel like 5th graders won't be able to get the full depth of experience out of FLL at 10 years old with just one prior year of competition, especially given the breadth of strategy involved in both the robot game and the research project.

I don't really agree with this. Enigma (FRC 2075, FTC 5385, FTC 5391) has two grade school FTC teams and their mentors are the high school FRC team students and some parents. FTC 5391 made it to worlds this year by way of a super regional. I think this shows that grade school students can be mature enough to compete at an FTC level.

About the fact that FIM seems to be pushing out FLL, I personally like the idea of FTC as a lower grade level. I know the big thing is that it costs more to run an FRC team than an FTC team and that there are schools who can't afford to run an FRC team but Michigan has never had very many FTC teams. FRC is growing very rapidly in Michigan and a lot of it is due to the grant money that has come recently but as far as I can remember Michigan has always been a state with a lot of FRC teams. FIM's goal currently (as well as FIRST in general) is to get a robotics program in every high school. FIM wants an FRC team in every high school. By putting an FRC team in every high school there is no more need for FTC teams in the high schools so why not make it in the grade schools?

On the flip side of this, Michigan is turning from being one of the most competitive states to compete at to the the state who has some elite teams, a bunch of average teams and some below average teams. Granted if these teams survive they will get better with experience but many of these teams won't survive. The money just isn't there. These teams might be able to survive as an FTC team though which would give the students the ability to have some sort of STEM hands on education that they otherwise might not have. So maybe we do have FTC and FRC in the high schools, one is for the schools who can afford the expensive nature of FRC and the other for the teams who can not.

I know that I wouldn't be the same person I am today without the FIRST experience I had, but I don't know if the FTC experience would have effected me as much as the FRC experience did. But some experience is better than no experience.

GaryVoshol 21-05-2015 21:05

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Law (Post 1483499)
I believe you are violating CD rules for creating a separate account to post this. It sounds to me that you are part of a FIRST team.

I have confirmed that this is a new account for a unique person, not a duplicate account.

Nemo 21-05-2015 23:49

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
FIRST should create an actual middle school program.

It's super awkward to use FTC as a middle school program, because then you have 12 year olds competing with 18 year olds. Making FTC middle school across the board is a bad option because that would remove access to FIRST at thousands of high schools.

As for FiM, they're at least trying to adjust the middle school issue in a way that they have available. I think their solutions is among the best options available to them. It helps that MI has funding for FRC registration fees, so the access issue is not as bad as in most places.

Leaving middle school kids hanging like this is a big mistake. While FIRST drops off the earth in middle school, athletics and fine arts are continuing right along, and kids get established in those activities instead. FIRST programs are competing with those activities for peoples' energy.

gblake 22-05-2015 00:32

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo (Post 1483587)
FIRST should create an actual middle school program.

It's super awkward to use FTC as a middle school program, because then you have 12 year olds competing with 18 year olds. Making FTC middle school across the board is a bad option because that would remove access to FIRST at thousands of high schools.

As for FiM, they're at least trying to adjust the middle school issue in a way that they have available. I think their solutions is among the best options available to them. It helps that MI has funding for FRC registration fees, so the access issue is not as bad as in most places.

Leaving middle school kids hanging like this is a big mistake. While FIRST drops off the earth in middle school, athletics and fine arts are continuing right along, and kids get established in those activities instead. FIRST programs are competing with those activities for peoples' energy.

You make it sound as if FIRST is the only STEM option on the planet. Students need a variety of STEM options and a variety of Arts options, and ...

The STEM choices aren't (had better not be) FIRST or nothing. If they are, FIRST and its participants and supporters have failed.

Blake

cadandcookies 22-05-2015 00:37

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
While I won't hold it against Michigan for running things their own way, I'm very much opposed to extending their rules for the progression of FIRST programs across every program in the states or outside of them. Telling everyone, everywhere, that FRC is the only high school robotics program available to them in the FIRST progression isn't a sensible approach for many areas of the United States, much less the world. There are many communities for which FRC is prohibitively expensive-- telling them the only FIRST program they can do is leaving high school students in those areas with fewer options than they had before, which isn't good for anyone.

Michigan may be able to afford this model because of their state grants, but most everywhere else that's simply impractical. If I have a group of high schoolers in a town that has less than 500 people living in it, it's ridiculous to expect them to pony up for an FRC team. Yes, I'm aware that VEX or BEST are out there, but I don't think it aligns with FIRST's goals to say "Sorry, but you don't fit into our model, go somewhere else." FIRST has and is being run as a very inclusive and flexible organization. Regional partners have a good deal of freedom to run programs in their areas how they see fit, and I see no reason to change that at this point.

Nemo 22-05-2015 00:38

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 1483595)
You make it sound as if FIRST is the only STEM option on the planet. Students need a variety of STEM options and a variety of Arts options, and ...

The STEM choices aren't (had better not be) FIRST or nothing. If they are, FIRST and its participants and supporters have failed.

Blake

I agree with that, but it doesn't change my opinion that FIRST should create a middle school program.

dtengineering 22-05-2015 01:20

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
If FiM has raised/found/scrounged/etc. funds, then it is reasonable that they should be able to distribute them as they see fit. If you want FiM support, then you have to play by FiM's rules.

If they are holding FIRST events, however, they have to follow FIRST's rules. If FIRST doesn't enforce their rules in Michigan, then they lose the moral authority (if not the legal authority) to enforce those rules in other areas.

Personally I believe that FTC is very appropriate for high school students, and, like VEX, is arguably educationally more sound than FRC in many respects.

And I will point out that VEX and VEX IQ are just two of the many excellent alternatives to FIRST branded programs. If you don't like FiM's approach, the best way to vote is with your feet. Nothing gets an event organizer to pay attention more quickly than having half of their teams walk away....

Jason

Gregor 22-05-2015 01:57

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
I'm saving a longer post for later, but anyone who thinks that 13 and 14 year olds are beyond FLL at this point are not approaching FLL from a competative angle. There are so many things still to learn, and every year I'm floored with the new stuff the kids on my team come up with. I'm even more floored when I dare to go on Youtube and see what some of the top teams have done.

Remember that 14 is only the age cap in North America due to the prevalence of FTC and FRC teams, it's 16 globally. If I had the choice I would have absolutely continued with FLL for another two years (in addition to FRC mind you), and I like to think of myself as a fairly competent mechanical student.

I'd be interested in seeing some of the FLL student and alumni testimonials FiM gathered before approaching this new model.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtengineering (Post 1483601)
If they are holding FIRST events, however, they have to follow FIRST's rules. If FIRST doesn't enforce their rules in Michigan, then they lose the moral authority (if not the legal authority) to enforce those rules in other areas.

FLL events are very much run by how their organizers want, unlike FRC.

In the Toronto region, there are 3 events only open to Toronto District School Board teams. Community teams ect. have to go to other events, even though they payed to be a team and follow all the same rules as the TDSB teams.

dtengineering 22-05-2015 02:30

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1483603)

FLL events are very much run by how their organizers want, unlike FRC.

In the Toronto region, there are 3 events only open to Toronto District School Board teams. Community teams ect. have to go to other events, even though they payed to be a team and follow all the same rules as the TDSB teams.

Didn't know that, thanks. FLL and FTC pretty much died off here in BC a few years back, so I'm not up on that part of the rules. I know that FIRST did like to enforce the "no showing other cool robot competitions at our events" rule when their last event partner invited a few VEX teams to present at an FLL event. Come to think of it, that's part of the reason that FLL shut down. They lost their event partner.

VEX is going great, though!

Jason

philso 22-05-2015 08:43

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
FiM is dictating to all FLL teams in their "territory" what the rules will be and that they are re-aligning the age group boundaries to suit a school-based bureaucracy. This may be a good thing or it may be a bad thing. Unfortunately, or fortunately, they have no jurisdiction in other territories. Their change will create more disparity in the age ranges seen when teams from their territory go to the World Festival or any of the Invitationals not under their control. My understanding of why FIRST allows 16 year-olds outside of North America to participate in FLL because, until recently, they did not offer FTC and FRC events in most of the Rest of the World.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1483603)
I'm saving a longer post for later, but anyone who thinks that 13 and 14 year olds are beyond FLL at this point are not approaching FLL from a competative angle. There are so many things still to learn, and every year I'm floored with the new stuff the kids on my team come up with. I'm even more floored when I dare to go on Youtube and see what some of the top teams have done.

Remember that 14 is only the age cap in North America due to the prevalence of FTC and FRC teams, it's 16 globally. If I had the choice I would have absolutely continued with FLL for another two years (in addition to FRC mind you), and I like to think of myself as a fairly competent mechanical student.

I feel that the lower age cap on FLL (and FTC) will lead to participants getting less out of the programs in terms of learning, growth and inspiration and work against the vision of FIRST of getting more students to pursue STEM. Most of the FLL teams build fairly rudimentary robots compared to the more competitive teams that Gregor is referring to. This is either due to a lack of training (coaching/mentoring) and/or the participants do not yet have the maturity necessary to work with more complex mechanisms and software. If they did, you would see calculus taught in elementary school. Many of those teams that did the inspiring stuff that Gregor refers to have competed in FLL for many years, probably more time than the age range FiM would allow. I believe that this will lead to a situation where the "rich get richer". The kids who are already "mechanical geniuses" will do well but the majority of the participants will not be able to struggle long enough to achieve the personal growth possible and FLL will become something that "they did once or twice and didn't get much out of it" so they went to do something else.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1483603)
FLL events are very much run by how their organizers want, unlike FRC.

In the Toronto region, there are 3 events only open to Toronto District School Board teams. Community teams ect. have to go to other events, even though they payed to be a team and follow all the same rules as the TDSB teams.

For many years, one of the FLL Qualifying Tournaments in South Texas Region was only open to teams from that school District.

Historically, about 60-70% of the teams in the South Texas Region are affiliated with a school in some way. The balance were community teams, Girl/Boy Scout teams, church group teams, homeschool group teams, family based teams and teams based at for-profit robotics education companies. Would all these other teams be excluded from participating in FiM run FLL events? Would these teams be able to participate in FLL events outside of FiM's territory? I believe that in Texas, teams are only allowed to register for events in their geographic region. I somehow don't think that it is in FIRST's interest to exclude so many participants.

Allison K 22-05-2015 10:36

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1483466)
So, what you're saying is that this issue cannot be quantified or proved to be an issue using anything other than anecdotes and opinions?

Disclaimer - I've always thought the FLL age going through 14 was wrong, an 8 yr old cannot compete against a 14 yr old. FTC has always felt weird to me getting shoe horned in a space that directly competes with two programs. If I were to be granted unlimited power to make decisions on these programs I'd probably have FLL (8-12), FTC (11-15) FRC (14-18) as the suggested ranges which closely matches what FiM is doing from the sounds of it.

I think that it can be, but I alone am not in a position to compile that information. I'm particularly interested in...
  • how does disallowing middle school students from FLL impact the depth of experience students are able to get from that program?
  • does the impact (if any) on depth of experience negatively impact the value in the FLL for individuals?
  • what percent of coaches feel like their 10 year old/5th grade grade students have mastered FLL?
  • do coaches feel that the opportunity to master one level of program before moving on is important?
  • what percent of coaches feel like their 11-12 year old/6th-7th grade students have grown out of/become bored with FLL?
  • what percent of coaches feel like their 11-12 year old/6th-7th grade students are ready to handle the challenges of FTC?
  • what is the impact of forcing students up a level if they aren't emotionally and socially mature enough?

If 13-14 year olds were at the center of the debate I wouldn't feel nearly as strongly about the changes (we'd switch them to FTC/VRC and call it a day), but most of my kids affected by this change are 11. Around 25% of them are still 10 (turning 11 sometime between June-October) but they'll be in 6th grade in the fall, so FLL isn't an option. Have most 11 year olds really grown out of FLL? My anecdotal perspective on this is that my 11 year old 6th graders are finally hitting the point where they can be successful in the FLL robot game and more or less navigate the research project independently without major frustration.

Sperkowsky 22-05-2015 11:30

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Allison K (Post 1483628)
I think that it can be, but I alone am not in a position to compile that information. I'm particularly interested in...
  • how does disallowing middle school students from FLL impact the depth of experience students are able to get from that program?
  • does the impact (if any) on depth of experience negatively impact the value in the FLL for individuals?
  • what percent of coaches feel like their 10 year old/5th grade grade students have mastered FLL?
  • do coaches feel that the opportunity to master one level of program before moving on is important?
  • what percent of coaches feel like their 11-12 year old/6th-7th grade students have grown out of/become bored with FLL?
  • what percent of coaches feel like their 11-12 year old/6th-7th grade students are ready to handle the challenges of FTC?
  • what is the impact of forcing students up a level if they aren't emotionally and socially mature enough?

If 13-14 year olds were at the center of the debate I wouldn't feel nearly as strongly about the changes (we'd switch them to FTC/VRC and call it a day), but most of my kids affected by this change are 11. Around 25% of them are still 10 (turning 11 sometime between June-October) but they'll be in 6th grade in the fall, so FLL isn't an option. Have most 11 year olds really grown out of FLL? My anecdotal perspective on this is that my 11 year old 6th graders are finally hitting the point where they can be successful in the FLL robot game and more or less navigate the research project independently without major frustration.

I dont know about michigan but I know here a lot of middle schools start at 7th grade either 7th and 8th or 7th through 9th

And FTC is also only 7th grade up so you wouldnt be dealing with 11 year olds. You would be dealing with 12/13 year olds.

When I was 12 or 13 I would have want the harder challange but thats me.

cbale2000 22-05-2015 12:00

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1483634)
I dont know about michigan but I know here a lot of middle schools start at 7th grade either 7th and 8th or 7th through 9th

And FTC is also only 7th grade up so you wouldnt be dealing with 11 year olds. You would be dealing with 12/13 year olds.

When I was 12 or 13 I would have want the harder challange but thats me.

The majority of middle schools (that I'm familiar with anyways) in Michigan are 6-8th grades. There are, of course always exceptions, our school district has even considered moving 8th grade into the high schools as part of a building consolidation plan (Though that idea got shot down pretty quickly).

Allison K 22-05-2015 12:02

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1483634)
I dont know about michigan but I know here a lot of middle schools start at 7th grade either 7th and 8th or 7th through 9th

And FTC is also only 7th grade up so you wouldnt be dealing with 11 year olds. You would be dealing with 12/13 year olds.

When I was 12 or 13 I would have want the harder challange but thats me.

The FiM age ranges for FLL are here and for FTC are here.

The exact language for the FLL age range is "Students in 4th grade through the end of elementary school." and since most of our school districts are divided as elementary school K-5, middle school 6-8, high school 9-12 that means that most 11 year old 6th graders are being funneled into FTC and not allowed to participate in FLL.

Spreadsheet here showing all 28 school districts in Oakland county, MI and the manner in which they divide their progression from elementary to middle school to high school. 18 districts define middle school as 6th-8th grade, 7 districts define middle school as starting in 7th grade (going through 8th or 9th), 1 defines middle school as starting in 5th grade (or rather, it seems like 5th-8th is housed in the same building, I can't tell beyond that), and 2 weren't immediately obvious.

Edit: Oops. In the time it took me to make a spreadsheet cbale beat me to it.

Dave Campbell 22-05-2015 12:27

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
How does FiM deal with home school or parochial school teams? Are there schools that don't delineate students by grade level or age? Is it mandated by FiM that teams have a public institution and grade level or age affiliation? I know several individuals who were 15 year-old high school graduates who've moved on to a very successful collegiate and professional careers. They began HS classes as 10 year-olds. Will future students like them be excluded from FRC?

Alex2614 22-05-2015 13:25

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
I hear that this is the model that a lot of areas are looking into. Here in WV, we have seen tremendous growth in FLL, and a bit of FTC growth, too.

One thing we are noticing is that as a kid starts FLL in 3rd grade, by the time they are in 8th grade, they've done it for 6 seasons or more, and start to get burned out. FTC is a great model for middle schools, but I disagree that it should be *only* middle school. We are looking at bringing FTC to more middle schools (in the past, we only looked at FLL for middle school), but also for our high schools.

I guess what I'm saying is that it isn't really a bad thing to have FLL end at 5th grade.

Tom Line 22-05-2015 14:43

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
The usage of school-grades as a metric is an exceedingly poor one, and it should be done by ages. At the same time, why deny high schools that may not be able to participate in FRC the opportunity to participate in FTC if they want?

Parents can afford to run an FTC team. Few could financial fund an FRC team. So you've just denied ANY participation to students whose high school/area doesn't support an FRC team.

FRC, not FiM, needs to take the initiative and clean this all up. At the same time, they need to normalize the age around the world. Split FLL into two age groups at the Festival. 8-12 and 12-16. Mandate that qualifications be done the same way. Split FTC into two age groups as well.

Become more inclusive but at the same time make sure you aren't having 8 year olds competing against 16 year olds. And yes, it's a competition.

cadandcookies 22-05-2015 14:55

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1483664)
The usage of school-grades as a metric is an exceedingly poor one, and it should be done by ages. At the same time, why deny high schools that may not be able to participate in FRC the opportunity to participate in FTC if they want?

Parents can afford to run an FTC team. Few could financial fund an FRC team. So you've just denied ANY participation to students whose high school/area doesn't support an FRC team.

FRC, not FiM, needs to take the initiative and clean this all up. At the same time, they need to normalize the age around the world. Split FLL into two age groups at the Festival. 8-12 and 12-16. Mandate that qualifications be done the same way. Split FTC into two age groups as well.

Become more inclusive but at the same time make sure you aren't having 8 year olds competing against 16 year olds. And yes, it's a competition.

It's funny that people are saying that middle school FTC can't compete with high school FTC, because I distinctly remember several of Michigan's FTC teams doing fantastically at North Super Regional against end of high school aged teams.

I think we're just running into the consequences of how FIRST expanded FLL and FTC-- they gave them to a regional partner and gave them a way to plug into Championships but otherwise let them run how they want. I know there's some friction in Minnesota about how we do judging versus how FIRST tells us we should be doing judging. Now that programs are maturing in many areas, FIRST is probably going to want to standardize things more. It'll be interesting to see how that works.

Foster 22-05-2015 15:23

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1483664)
The usage of school-grades as a metric is an exceedingly poor one, and it should be done by ages. At the same time, why deny high schools that may not be able to participate in FRC the opportunity to participate in FTC if they want?

So I think that it's age / ability. Since I'm in the alternative universe of VEX (Come to the Dark Side Luke, we have cookies) the two programs are VEXIQ and VEX. I've seen younger roboteers that would be VEXIQ are bored by it and so they can do VEX. You can always move up early.

One thing that may stop younger roboteers and FRC is liability for power tool usage. When I was doing direct teams the insurance underwriter was unhappy about roboteers less than 14 using power tools. We worked out a "they will go through training and we will have proof" and they agreed to that. (And for the 4 years I only had parent/mentor injuries :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1483664)
Parents can afford to run an FTC team. Few could financial fund an FRC team. So you've just denied ANY participation to students whose high school/area doesn't support an FRC team.

Right, start your own team and events. I tell parents all the time, it's cheap, start your own team. Unhappy with the events in your area, I can come with a field and game elements, run your own event. That is one of the things I love about FLL/FTC/VEXIQ/VEX, easy peasy events. There are NEVER enough competitions.

I don't live in Michigan, so I'm not going to throw rocks. But I follow the following: Don't like the rules/game?
-- Follow the rules.
-- Break the rules but be prepared
-- Make or change the game/rules and see if you can add followers

But there are a ton of really cool robotics things you can do, FIRST isn't the only robot game!

tr6scott 22-05-2015 16:25

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
I came up to FRC through FLL in Michigan.

As far as I know, (Mainly through emails from FiM) all of the grant money provided from the state are funneled through the public schools.

When I coached and we competed in FLL, the team was funded by 3 families, although we were associated with the elementary school, the school and district did not provide any funding, or meeting space for the team.

Contrary to what Tom said, I am not sure we could have funded an FTC team, at that time. We were putting about a $1,000 per family in the budget to do FLL, travel and compete. Not sure how much more we could afford to put to robot materials, motors, gears, ect that the FTC required. (Back then FTC wasn't an option, it didn't exist)

Back then (2005-2008) there were many home schooled teams and community teams from 4-H and Girl Scouts that were doing FLL. Teams not associated with school districts, therefore not able to get any of the grant funding. (My take, not fact, just my impression.. citation needed)

Many times these non-school teams were some of the most competitive teams. I tried to look up the Michigan state champions in FLL, but could not find a listing. In the times we competed, I am pretty sure there were home school teams that were state champs. Seems like forcing these teams with no access to the grant money, to step up to FTC, or FRC, is counter productive to the mission of FIRST.

I know our team placed 2nd in 2008 in the Novi State Championship. (Michigan has two FLL state championships) I am pretty sure, (memory defective) we lost to a home schooled team. This year we had 3 middle schooled aged students on a team of 6. FLL is a progression, a process to go from a rookie, to almost a state champ, and it was a 4 year process for us. It was student focused, and the students solved the problems over the years. They were not bored, in fact they were more engaged the last year, because they understood the game (hint: It's all about cycle time) and what needed to be done to win.

(and in Michigan 2nd place in FLL, did not get you Championships)

Abhishek R 22-05-2015 16:38

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Excuse my ignorance, but does every student in Michigan who participates in FLL have the opportunity to easily become involved in the FTC program when they graduate to middle school?

orangelight 22-05-2015 18:01

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Abhishek R (Post 1483682)
Excuse my ignorance, but does every student in Michigan who participates in FLL have the opportunity to easily become involved in the FTC program when they graduate to middle school?

When I was in middle school no.
But now I see a lot more schools that have expanded to FTC, so it may easier for students to find a team now.

Christopher149 23-05-2015 00:12

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
On the topic of FTC in Michigan, here's something that may be interesting: there are zero FTC teams in the Upper Peninsula, and only 5? north of about Cadillac. In comparison, there are 2? VRC teams in the UP, 22 FRC teams, and something like a dozen FLL teams (several of which are middle school programs).

On one hand, I do appreciate that FLL is being pushed as an elementary program so that FLL and FTC don't try to conflict as a middle school programs. Several years ago, FIM was pushing FTC, but if it and FLL were going to be middle school programs, many northern schools would have ended up choosing one or the other.

On the less fortunate hand, pushing FLL into elementary may cause a temporary lack of good middle school robotics programs (at least FIRST ones, anyway) in the UP. This is partly because, say, for Houghton, the nearest FLL competition is 2 hours away, but the nearest FTC competition is 6+ hours away. (The nearest VRC events appear to be a similar distance away in WI and MN).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abhishek R (Post 1483682)
Excuse my ignorance, but does every student in Michigan who participates in FLL have the opportunity to easily become involved in the FTC program when they graduate to middle school?

In the UP? What is this FTC thing you speak of?

MichaelMcQuinn 23-05-2015 01:07

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
I personally think FIRST should axe FTC, and make Jr. FLL expand to all of elementary, and FLL is all of middle school, and FRC is all of high school.

Rachel Lim 23-05-2015 01:43

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelMcQuinn (Post 1483749)
I personally think FIRST should axe FTC, and make Jr. FLL expand to all of elementary, and FLL is all of middle school, and FRC is all of high school.

I hope they won't, for a couple of reasons:

1. FLL is a good challenge for elementary school kids. I've been mentoring an FLL team of 4th and 5th graders, and although they tend to need someone to keep them focused, they're definitely more than able to understand what they're doing, and they enjoy it. I don't know a lot about Jr FLL, but from what I've seen, I don't think they'll be getting the same thing out of it.

2. FRC is not affordable in all areas. It's just too expensive. FTC can reach students that otherwise won't have the ability to participate in FIRST.

It's definitely not an easy problem though. I did FLL in 7th grade and found it both challenging and enjoyable (although we had almost no adult help, so it was more difficult because of that). I also see the issue with having 4th graders competing against 8th graders.

Having different competitions for age groups within FLL (e.g. 4-6th grade and 7-8th grade compete separately) might be one way to do it, but then there would be a problem for mixed age teams...

tr6scott 23-05-2015 06:57

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Abhishek R (Post 1483682)
Excuse my ignorance, but does every student in Michigan who participates in FLL have the opportunity to easily become involved in the FTC program when they graduate to middle school?

Based on FiM own data, http://firstinmichigan.org/ftc/mi_ftc_teams.html

400+ FLL teams with max capacity of 10 per team, and 203 FTC teams with a max capacity of 15.

There is a huge push to start more FTC teams in Michigan, but clearly, there are kids being left behind as they transition between elementary to middle school.

And as Christopher149 pointed out there is a huge geographic hurdle to overcome if you live in the UP or upper LP.

FTC7584 23-05-2015 08:56

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelMcQuinn (Post 1483749)
I personally think FIRST should axe FTC, and make Jr. FLL expand to all of elementary, and FLL is all of middle school, and FRC is all of high school.

What do you propose happens to the hundreds of highschools that can't afford an FRC teams?

I know there is a slight tone of elitism that comes into play when FTC is talked about as a highschool program (see post here for a much longer thread on that), however, in most cases, FTC presents an equal, if not better, alternative to FRC for schools or organizations that cannot form a FRC team for whatever reason.

In the end, all the FIRST programs as they are, are effective in their specific roles. FIRST, as an international organization has put lots of consideration into these roles. In my opinion, it isn't reasonable for a state to overrule the national standard.

Sperkowsky 23-05-2015 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTC7584 (Post 1483767)
What do you propose happens to the hundreds of highschools that can't afford an FRC teams?

I know there is a slight tone of elitism that comes into play when FTC is talked about as a highschool program (see post here for a much longer thread on that), however, in most cases, FTC presents an equal, if not better, alternative to FRC for schools or organizations that cannot form a FRC team for whatever reason.

In the end, all the FIRST programs as they are, are effective in their specific roles. FIRST, as an international organization has put lots of consideration into these roles. In my opinion, it isn't reasonable for a state to overrule the national standard.

First is not perfect and neither is fim.

Fim is in Michigan which gives huge grants to run FRC. In Michigan schools can afford it. So it makes sense that they did this. However is this a good change right now nationally maybe not because not every state has grants like Michigan.

BenGuy 23-05-2015 10:25

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
I highly doubt that FLL is going anywhere. Dean Kamen's "mission" for us was to expand FLL. FiM is the fastest growing district in FIRST, so they couldn't get rid of it. Also, FLL gets them more PR and recognition, it's not going anywhere.

x86_4819 23-05-2015 11:05

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere yet, but would enforcing this separation between FTC and FRC also prohibit middle-school students from participating in FRC?

JimInNJ 23-05-2015 11:43

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1483770)
First is not perfect and neither is fim.

Fim is in Michigan which gives huge grants to run FRC. In Michigan schools can afford it. So it makes sense that they did this. However is this a good change right now nationally maybe not because not every state has grants like Michigan.

No, I think that the Michigan grants are unique. Are these grants from the state perpetual, or will they dry up in the future? This seems like a future disaster in the making . . .

Tom Line 23-05-2015 12:33

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JimInNJ (Post 1483783)
No, I think that the Michigan grants are unique. Are these grants from the state perpetual, or will they dry up in the future? This seems like a future disaster in the making . . .

They're sure to dry up at some point. And I'm sure a lot of teams will disappear when they do. But the retention rates for FRC teams over 3 or 5 years is something like 50% anyway. So they're hoping they hook people and some of those teams hang around.

It's been effective in our area. We've only seen 1 of the teams we've started through the grant end up folding when it went away (this was a couple years ago when FiM would pay the first year but not the second).

EricH 23-05-2015 14:34

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by x86_4819 (Post 1483779)
I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere yet, but would enforcing this separation between FTC and FRC also prohibit middle-school students from participating in FRC?

It'd take a bit of a rules change to do it, but I think it could be done. However, I suspect that someone might figure out that students who were unable to participate in FTC, for any one of a number of reasons, but wanted to participate in FIRST need an outlet, which just might be FRC. At least, I'd think that...

wgardner 23-05-2015 16:33

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1483802)
However, I suspect that someone might figure out that students who were unable to participate in FTC, for any one of a number of reasons, but wanted to participate in FIRST need an outlet, which just might be FRC. At least, I'd think that...

Funny, because I'd also suspect that someone might figure out that high school students who were unable to participate in FRC, for any one of a number of reasons, but wanted to participate in FIRST need an outlet, which just might be FTC. Yet FiM seems to be prohibiting that.

Daniel_LaFleur 24-05-2015 13:33

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1483664)
The usage of school-grades as a metric is an exceedingly poor one, and it should be done by ages.

Tom,

While I agree with the 1st half of your statement, I disagree with the 2nd half. Ability is far more important than age/grade and that's the issue I have with bureaucratic entities and the arbitrary metrics they use.

I've been a FRC mentor for 15 years. I've seen 7th graders that were ready for FRC and I've seen 10th graders that weren't.

My question to FiM is: Why must the programs be separated? Why should they not be allowed to overlap?

My question to the Michigan community is: is the program you run a FiM program or a FIRST program? The answer to that should dictate which set of rules you'd want to follow.

FiM has done a lot of good for the FIRST community, thus I am very willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But I would be interested to see the data that they based this decision on.

cbale2000 24-05-2015 20:57

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 1483931)
My question to FiM is: Why must the programs be separated? Why should they not be allowed to overlap?

My question to the Michigan community is: is the program you run a FiM program or a FIRST program? The answer to that should dictate which set of rules you'd want to follow.

I don't speak for FiM, however, I suspect part of the reason for the lack of overlap is this: FTC has often been pegged as a low-cost alternative to FRC for schools where funding is limited, however, because in Michigan funding for rookie FRC teams is basically covered by state grants, the feeling seems to be that having overlap with FTC at the high school level simply detracts from potential FRC teams as the vast majority of schools are unlikely to be willing to have both programs.

To an extent, this also holds true when you compare FTC to FLL, FLL is cheaper and thus more appealing, but since FTC is also largely paid for by state grants in Michigan, making FTC the only Middle School program helps promote FTC at that level and expand the number of teams (which the data posted earlier in this thread has shown).

JrFLL and FLL are then delegated to their own grade ranges giving a very clear progression in the FIRST program.

The real question that needs to be asked is not whether or not this change has benefited team growth (arguably the data shows that it has), but has it benefited students. This is a much harder metric to gauge but it will be an important one going forwards.


Speaking as a student who participated in FLL in 7th and 8th grades; when I moved into high school, I was totally unprepared to join an FRC team, I went to a few meetings in the fall and maintained a "deer in the headlights" mentality the entire time. Needless to say, I dropped out of the team my 9th grade year (something I regret to this day) and ended up joining back the following year. Had I had exposure to a program like FTC in Middle School I think I would have been much more prepared for FRC when I got into high school.


Now to answer your second question: I don't know. The jurisdiction that FiM has over Michigan teams has been one of these confusing grey areas since it was implemented. On one side, I've yet to see any instances where FiM has directly contradicted FIRST, but on the other hand, there are policies that FiM implements that differ substantially from FIRST. In some ways you could think of it like how our government works, the Federal government can create rules that apply to everyone, then states can create non-conflicting rules that are tailored specifically to their needs. If you wanted to take the analogy further, you could compare individual competitions to local governments, where you can again make rules (in FIRSTs case, mostly procedural) for the municipality so long as they don't conflict with state or federal rules.

gblake 25-05-2015 00:40

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cbale2000 (Post 1483977)
I don't speak for FiM, however, I suspect part of the reason for the lack of overlap is this: FTC has often been pegged as a low-cost alternative to FRC for schools where funding is limited, ...

Do you realize that you are making a great case (That's good! - I think it is - Isn't it?) for having more FTC teams (instead of FRC teams), and not fewer? Maybe you do/did intend to do that???

Combine what you wrote with the reasonable assertions that:
  1. More (way more) students per dollar are directly exposed to hands-on "STEM" in typical FTC teams, than are in typical FRC teams; and
  2. The people of the great state of Michigan would like to get the biggest bang-for-the-buck out of their tax dollars; and
  3. FTC is a program FIRST aims at HS students and some MS students; and
  4. FIRST's goal/role isn't converting students into already-trained STEM professionals during grade school, and is instead inspiring the on-the-fence and non-STEM students to switch to choosing to try a STEM field for their future.
When/if you do this, telling high schools that the FIRST FTC program is off-the-table; is at best, an odd (and changeable) thing to do.

Perhaps there is some other compelling, fiscally-sound, student-focused motivation at work? If there is, someone please post it.

Blake
PS: To stay on-topic, I think the same arguments hold true if you substitute FLL for FTC, FTC for FRC, and you shift the student age ranges appropiately.

cbale2000 25-05-2015 02:23

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 1484010)
FIRST's goal/role isn't converting students into already-trained STEM professionals during grade school, and is instead inspiring the on-the-fence and non-STEM students to switch to choosing to try a STEM field for their future.

I absolutely agree with you on this point, and I would suggest it could be argued that FRC does a better job at inspiring students due to it's scale. Building an FTC robot is a great engineering challenge for kids, but it's not nearly as impressive as watching 120lb machines that you helped make driving around a playing field in a sports arena.

I would also point out that another way FIRST has worked to inspire students is to pair them with mentors from STEM fields, while I personally have no experience on an FTC team, I would venture to guess that there is not nearly as much need for professional mentors on an FTC team where kids can build most things by hand, compared to an FRC team where various manufacturing techniques are employed to design and build machines.


You're right that FTC is more cost effective, but it remains to be proven to be equally or more inspiring than FRC.


Again, these thoughts are based on the impressions I've gotten of FiM activities over the years. It's not my intention to say that this is the best solution everywhere, or even that it necessarily works great here in Michigan (time will tell). Either way, essentially what we're doing is hypothesizing about the motives of an organization that no one yet to post in this thread is directly part of. The question that remains to be asked is this: has anyone bothered to actually send an email to FiM and ask them what their rational is for their policy?

wgardner 25-05-2015 07:24

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cbale2000 (Post 1484012)
I would also point out that another way FIRST has worked to inspire students is to pair them with mentors from STEM fields, while I personally have no experience on an FTC team, I would venture to guess that there is not nearly as much need for professional mentors on an FTC team where kids can build most things by hand, compared to an FRC team where various manufacturing techniques are employed to design and build machines.

My opinion is that FRC virtually requires adult technical mentors while FTC teams benefit from them but does not require them. FTC teams can get started by simply building using the kit parts, but the best FTC teams will often have 3D printed parts, CNCed parts, laser cut parts, and/or machined parts on their robots. A few have even used 3D printed parts as mold models and used a foundry at their school to mold custom aluminum parts. About the only thing I haven't seen much of in FTC is welding.

I know some kids who are inspired by working with adult mentors on FRC teams and some kids who strongly prefer being able to "own the process" more on their FTC teams. Different kids are inspired by different environments. I think it's great that FIRST offers both.


Quote:

Originally Posted by cbale2000 (Post 1484012)
You're right that FTC is more cost effective, but it remains to be proven to be equally or more inspiring than FRC.

If you're interested in this question, you should check out this report from 2011 commissioned by FIRST. In particular, from page 7 of the report:

"FRC members were more likely to
report increases in their interest in science and technology (97% vs. 95%), in their plans
to take science or math courses (90% vs. 86%) and in their interest in going to college (92%
vs. 87%). FRC team members were also more likely to report learning about key values,
including Gracious Professionalism (96% vs. 90%) and volunteering in the community (83%
vs. 74%). Team leaders reported a similar set of gains. FTC team members, on the other
hand, were substantially more likely to report an increased interest in computer
programming (91% vs. 78%) and were as likely as FRC participants to report that they were
interested in science and engineering careers (85% vs. 83%). FTC and FRC team
members were also equally likely to report gains on questions related to life and workplace
skills (FRC members were more likely to report gains in communications and cooperation
skills, but there were no significant differences between program on the responses to the
other skill questions). "

The numbers are pretty darn similar, showing the very similar benefits of both programs, IMHO.

gblake 25-05-2015 12:40

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
These are my replies and opinions. I think we agree more than disagree.
Quote:

Originally Posted by cbale2000 (Post 1484012)
... but it's not nearly as impressive as watching 120lb machines that you helped make driving around a playing field in a sports arena.

Once an FRC team reaches a certain size range, many of the students doing the watching in the stands, are the same ones that watched someone else build, program, design, drive, iteratively revise, maintain, etc. that machine. With only one expensive machine (per team) involved, as the number of students goes up on an FRC team, the hands-on experiences per student inevitably decline. For me, watching (or driving) an FTC machine that I was an intimate part of creating is far more STEM-spirational than watching an FRC machine someone else built, that I (for the most part) can't drive/change.

A subtle, but important point is that over the course of a day I might enjoy watching an FRC circus more than I would enjoy watching an FTC circus (the same is probably true for my next-door neighbor and other average joes); but! I would get more STEM-spiration out of being an intimate part of my FTC team, than I would get out being one of the herd in an FRC team; especially if I'm not one of the core members of that FRC team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbale2000 (Post 1484012)
I would also point out that another way FIRST has worked to inspire students is to pair them with mentors from STEM fields, while I personally have no experience on an FTC team, I would venture to guess that there is not nearly as much need for professional mentors on an FTC team where kids can build most things by hand, compared to an FRC team where various manufacturing techniques are employed to design and build machines.

FRC teams can put together a kit-bot with very little tool use. In fact, every year some (too many!) show up at competitions with little more than a pile of parts; and then the teams around them turn those parts into a working robot. There are differences in mentor needs and involvement for FTC and FRC, but they are minor, not major.


Quote:

Originally Posted by cbale2000 (Post 1484012)
You're right that FTC is more cost effective, but it remains to be proven to be equally or more inspiring than FRC.

My belief, arising from extensive personal experience, is that you get more inspiration per dollar (in addition to more robots per dollar) from FTC/VRC than you do from FRC. By this I mean that more students are directly involved (hands-on) in a greater number of inspirational STEM activities. YMMV


Quote:

Originally Posted by cbale2000 (Post 1484012)
... The question that remains to be asked is this: has anyone bothered to actually send an email to FiM and ask them what their rational is for their policy?

Plenty of FiM folks read CD. If they care to, they will write something here. Alternatively, they might individually choose to (or have a policy of that says to) stay out of CD conversations, much like FIRST HQ stays out of CD conversations.

Blake
PS: FRC is a great program to use as the cherry on top of the sundae, but it's not so great as the one-size-fits-all sundae.

April 25-05-2015 14:37

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
As an FLL coach for over 10 years, I have seen many teams and individuals grow through the FLL program learning research skills, presentation skills, teamwork skills, learning the process of designing, building and programming, and developing innovative solutions to real issues. The elementary kids do ok with that but the middle school students really get it.

I see value in offering FTC for middle school students who are ready for a new challenge and not ready to jump into FRC, however taking FLL away as an option for middle school is limiting skills these students can develop. I have had several students go directly from FLL to FRC with no issue because they have learned the FIRST values, and basic skills that have given them the ability to learn the new skills needed for FRC.

I have no problem with FIM limiting grant money to fit their goals, but for those of us not running teams in schools, I hope FIRST will not allow them to continue to create separate standards that would limit FIRST growth in areas where there are no FIRST programs in the local schools.

I currently have 25 new families on my list who have specifically contacted me about "LEGO robotics." For the students who are in the 6-8th grade range, I would hate to tell them that LEGO Robotics is not an option for them and lose the opportunity to have them get involved in FIRST because it was the LEGO that attracted them in the first place. I cannot count how many people have joined one of our FIRST (75-100 kids total in JrFLL, FLL, and FRC) teams originally because of the LEGO connection.

Mr V 25-05-2015 14:53

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wgardner (Post 1484014)
My opinion is that FRC virtually requires adult technical mentors while FTC teams benefit from them but does not require them. FTC teams can get started by simply building using the kit parts, but the best FTC teams will often have 3D printed parts, CNCed parts, laser cut parts, and/or machined parts on their robots. A few have even used 3D printed parts as mold models and used a foundry at their school to mold custom aluminum parts. About the only thing I haven't seen much of in FTC is welding.

I know some kids who are inspired by working with adult mentors on FRC teams and some kids who strongly prefer being able to "own the process" more on their FTC teams. Different kids are inspired by different environments. I think it's great that FIRST offers both.



If you're interested in this question, you should check out this report from 2011 commissioned by FIRST. In particular, from page 7 of the report:

"FRC members were more likely to
report increases in their interest in science and technology (97% vs. 95%), in their plans
to take science or math courses (90% vs. 86%) and in their interest in going to college (92%
vs. 87%). FRC team members were also more likely to report learning about key values,
including Gracious Professionalism (96% vs. 90%) and volunteering in the community (83%
vs. 74%). Team leaders reported a similar set of gains. FTC team members, on the other
hand, were substantially more likely to report an increased interest in computer
programming (91% vs. 78%) and were as likely as FRC participants to report that they were
interested in science and engineering careers (85% vs. 83%). FTC and FRC team
members were also equally likely to report gains on questions related to life and workplace
skills (FRC members were more likely to report gains in communications and cooperation
skills, but there were no significant differences between program on the responses to the
other skill questions). "

The numbers are pretty darn similar, showing the very similar benefits of both programs, IMHO.

The other big difference between FTC and FRC is time commitment. A FTC team can do well meeting under 10 hours per week while FRC teams typically put in way more hours per week in build season. Finding a coach that is willing to make the time commitment necessary for FTC is easier than finding one that is willing to make the commitment for a FRC team. The other is the student time commitment, some students have other activities. With 1 or 2 days per week you'll be able to take part in the bulk of an FTC build while on a FRC team you miss 3 or 4 days in a row and things may have changed dramatically.

So yeah they may have funding available for FRC teams at HS level in MI but do they have the people willing to make the time commitment at every school?

EricH 25-05-2015 15:04

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V (Post 1484046)
The other big difference between FTC and FRC is time commitment. A FTC team can do well meeting under 10 hours per week while FRC teams typically put in way more hours per week in build season. [...]
So yeah they may have funding available for FRC teams at HS level in MI but do they have the people willing to make the time commitment at every school?

On the other hand, an FTC team's build and competition season stretches over nearly a full school year, if I'm not mistaken. An FRC team's offseason is the first half of the school year, while FRC's competition season only lasts for the second half...

I'd be willing to bet that if you stacked up FTC and FRC total time commitments, they'd be pretty close, as far as building and competing go. (Other items, no contest it'll be FRC eating the time.)

bduddy 25-05-2015 17:05

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wgardner (Post 1484014)
If you're interested in this question, you should check out this report from 2011 commissioned by FIRST. In particular, from page 7 of the report:

"FRC members were more likely to
report increases in their interest in science and technology (97% vs. 95%), in their plans
to take science or math courses (90% vs. 86%) and in their interest in going to college (92%
vs. 87%). FRC team members were also more likely to report learning about key values,
including Gracious Professionalism (96% vs. 90%) and volunteering in the community (83%
vs. 74%). Team leaders reported a similar set of gains. FTC team members, on the other
hand, were substantially more likely to report an increased interest in computer
programming (91% vs. 78%) and were as likely as FRC participants to report that they were
interested in science and engineering careers (85% vs. 83%). FTC and FRC team
members were also equally likely to report gains on questions related to life and workplace
skills (FRC members were more likely to report gains in communications and cooperation
skills, but there were no significant differences between program on the responses to the
other skill questions). "

The numbers are pretty darn similar, showing the very similar benefits of both programs, IMHO.

Given the sample size of a few hundred and partially self-selected nature of that survey (only half of the teams contacted responded), I highly doubt those numbers are statistically significant.

wgardner 25-05-2015 19:14

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1484070)
Given the sample size of a few hundred and partially self-selected nature of that survey (only half of the teams contacted responded), I highly doubt those numbers are statistically significant.

I agree. But for the big picture, it's hard to argue something like "FRC is much more inspiring than FTC" or "FTC is much more inspiring than FRC" when the data looks pretty darn similar.

And there's this in the report too: "FTC team members
were more likely to report that team members made the important decisions (97% vs. 93%)
and to reject the idea that adults on the team did the most difficult jobs (87% vs. 78%). FRC
team members, were more likely to report that they had a chance to get to know one of the
adults on the team (93% vs. 90%); that they learned a lot from the adults (92% vs. 81%);
that adults on the team talked about college (70% vs. 57%), and that they felt they belonged
on their team (94% vs. 92%). While those differences were statistically significant (i.e.,
unlikely to have occurred by chance), in practical terms they are small and likely reflect
differences in emphasis rather than major differences in program quality.
Overall 97% of the
FTC participants and 99% of those in FRC reported that they “had fun working on my FIRST
team” – another important indicator of a quality program experience. "

Mr V 25-05-2015 20:04

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1484048)
On the other hand, an FTC team's build and competition season stretches over nearly a full school year, if I'm not mistaken. An FRC team's offseason is the first half of the school year, while FRC's competition season only lasts for the second half...

I'd be willing to bet that if you stacked up FTC and FRC total time commitments, they'd be pretty close, as far as building and competing go. (Other items, no contest it'll be FRC eating the time.)


Well the FTC build season length varies greatly depending on area and how well the team does. In our area the FTC competition season is in Nov and Dec with the state CMP in January if the team makes it that far.

For FTC I'd estimate a low of 70hrs and a high of 140hrs per season in our area.

For FRC I'd estimate a low of 250 hrs and a high of 360 hrs per competition season in our area.

Note we do a league play format for FTC so 3 plays before the state CMP and we do the District System for FRC so two plays before DCMP and in both of those cases the time I estimated did not include moving on to the state/District CMP.

The other thing is that even in an area with a long FTC season the time commitment per week is low so it allows time to study for all those AP classes, and other activities while the usual 6 days per week of many FRC teams makes it hard to do those other things too.

Ian Curtis 25-05-2015 20:22

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V (Post 1484099)
For FRC I'd estimate a low of 250 hrs and a high of 360 hrs per competition season in our area.

We schedule 100-120 hours a build season and tack on at most 20 additional hours of build. We come in at well under 200 hrs a season for a typical team member (+ events & practice - missed meetings) and I have a hard time believing we are uniquely qualified to balance the FIRST/life equation.

maltz1881 25-05-2015 23:05

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
I ran an FLL team for 7 years along with an FRC team. I found the kids who were older in FLL getting bored. They wanted to use tools like the older kids. We made the decision to move up to FTC. Love it! It has made our FRC team much stronger. We have our FRC students mentor the FTC students and this year they even decided to take on a JrFLL team.

We now have 2 FTC teams and could have 3 if we wanted to. Both teams have made it to the Super Regional and competed against the 18 year old students. One of our teams had the highest qualifying score at the event and they scored a majority of those points. Middle school students are very capable of competing against high school students.

We are a home schooled group. We don't receive the funding like everybody else. We are able to gain sponsors though. That being said, I would rather the kids gain sponsors than to rely on the state to support us. The sponsors we have currently see the importance of what we are doing and have increased yearly the funding.

Please don't knock what FiM is trying to do. Give it a try. I remember when FiM went to the district model, people weren't happy. Many said it was the end of FIRST. Change is always difficult at first but when you give kids the chance, they are pretty resilient and can rise to the challenge. I have kids who are autistic and 1 who is dealing with cerebral palsy. They are handling it just fine. In fact they win the Inspire Award 3 years in a row at a district level.

Mr V 26-05-2015 01:36

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis (Post 1484100)
We schedule 100-120 hours a build season and tack on at most 20 additional hours of build. We come in at well under 200 hrs a season for a typical team member (+ events & practice - missed meetings) and I have a hard time believing we are uniquely qualified to balance the FIRST/life equation.

The hours I have posted come from talking to lots of teams in WA. I'm not saying it can't be done in 100-120 hours because I did that this season with my rookie team. That was the hours that the school set for the teachers that rotated the duty of sitting in the corner grading papers until it was time to lock the build space for the night.

On the other hand I know several teams that typically meet 4-6 or more hrs per week day and 6-8 or even 10 or 12 on Sat through out the build season and then meet at least 20 or more hours per week through the competition season not including events.

When I was with 2046 there were two years we had the shop open and working furiously from the time school got out on Fri until Midnight on bag day, or about 105 hrs in the last half of the last week. No not everyone was there all of those hours as there were 3 shifts but a handful of people, both students and mentors worked more than one 8 hour shift per day.

gblake 26-05-2015 01:37

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maltz1881 (Post 1484133)
...
Please don't knock what FiM is trying to do.
...

I don't think anyone has said their intentions are bad.

However, I am definitely curious to learn more about the financial model that is coupled to those intentions.

When I ran the numbers in the situations I have been in, the results always clearly lead me to push for a different compromise on behalf of the students and the financiers.

I'm curious what's different in their situation.

Blake

Lil' Lavery 26-05-2015 01:44

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
While the discussion of age cutoffs and the progression of programs is important and relevant, I feel it is drowning out another very important topic that is raised. It's been briefly alluded to a couple times already, but hasn't been really discussed. What degree of autonomy should the various region/district affiliates of FIRST be granted from FIRST HQ? Are they allowed to deviate from HQ's standards? In what areas and by how much?

While the expansion of the district format* will certainly make this an increasingly relevant concern (and we've seen some notable differences between districts in how they handle aspects of their competitions), it's not just limited to districts. There are other entities that exist in regional-format areas that run events, some "official" and some not. Should their organizing powers be limited to how they run events? How they administer funds/support to teams in their "jurisdiction?" And who determines their jurisdiction? Can they impose additional restrictions on the teams in their areas**? Should teams be given an "opt-out" standard from whatever organization runs their area***? Would these opt-outs allow them to opt out of a district standard? Can these organizations actively prohibit teams from registering or competing at events****? What burden of proof/explanation is required for any deviations away from the FIRST HQ standards? As you can see, this is opening quite the can of worms. There needs to be some sort of standard created for the delegation of authorities to these organizations.

*Michigan's reluctance to have the FIRST Tech Challenge available to high school students predates the district format, going back to at least 2007.
**Such as Minnesota's additional bag'n'tag requirements for an "off-season" State Championship event
***There was one MAR team that attempted to register as being from a different state in 2012 so they could continue to attend regional competitions instead of switching to the district format.
****Can FiM actively prevent a middle school FLL team from registering? From competing in an event organized by FiM?

Tristan Lall 26-05-2015 02:28

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1484155)
While the discussion of age cutoffs and the progression of programs is important and relevant, I feel it is drowning out another very important topic that is raised. It's been briefly alluded to a couple times already, but hasn't been really discussed. What degree of autonomy should the various region/district affiliates of FIRST be granted from FIRST HQ? Are they allowed to deviate from HQ's standards? In what areas and by how much?

While the expansion of the district format* will certainly make this an increasingly relevant concern (and we've seen some notable differences between districts in how they handle aspects of their competitions), it's not just limited to districts. There are other entities that exist in regional-format areas that run events, some "official" and some not. Should their organizing powers be limited to how they run events? How they administer funds/support to teams in their "jurisdiction?" And who determines their jurisdiction? Can they impose additional restrictions on the teams in their areas**? Should teams be given an "opt-out" standard from whatever organization runs their area***? Would these opt-outs allow them to opt out of a district standard? Can these organizations actively prohibit teams from registering or competing at events****? What burden of proof/explanation is required for any deviations away from the FIRST HQ standards? As you can see, this is opening quite the can of worms. There needs to be some sort of standard created for the delegation of authorities to these organizations.

I was thinking the same thing. I definitely want to avoid the incoherent mess that characterizes sports governing bodies at the local/school level. On the other hand, FIRST HQ doesn't always seem well-equipped to make big-picture decisions with the benefit of all the available evidence about local conditions—or at least fails to communicate the degree to which those conditions were considered but deprioritized in service of a perceived greater good.

My recommendation is that FIRST provide a list of what is and is not permissible for local governing bodies, and release it to the public—so that everyone knows who's not playing by the rules. The standards need to be equitable—and it will require some thought as to how that should be measured—and should be designed to be re-evaluated at known intervals. Part and parcel of setting out these standards is an explanation of why the standards exist—for example, if a particular vendor is required because of contract terms, then disclose that. Definitely spell out the powers of the local governing body here, and explain exactly why they're entitled to vary certain procedures, particularly when it could appear to be an advantage for some teams.

Jurisdiction is tricky because it's convenient to form organizations that follow neat administrative boundaries, and correspond to the same boundaries forever. So there's a natural urge to go state-by-state. But that's inequitable and frankly, laughable.1 Representation by population of teams, participants or general population all have their advantages. Some geographic grouping is clearly desirable, but the optimal extent is unclear. I think the guidance should be that local governing bodies should make every attempt to adopt a structure that permits adjustment as the competition's needs change.

Changing game rules should, for the moment and the foreseeable future, be prohibited. Changing tournament rules should be something that FIRST formalizes and publishes in their rules, thereby proving that FIRST assented to the changes instead of letting them slip through.2 There are precedents in other sports for different sanctioning bodies to establish slightly different rules, and it hinders interchangeability of players, facilities and statistics. Until such time as the FRC game doesn't change annually, there's enough uncertainty in the new game that adding more (due to the whims of a local governing body) doesn't seem wise.

1 In the same way that apportionment of seats in the U.S. senate is difficult to justify, given the powers that the body wields and its legislative role.
2 When (some years ago) FIRST Robotics Canada ran a regional with an extra playoff round, or another regional with byes instead of an 8th alliance, those changes were not widely known outside of those events. They certainly weren't announced officially, and were clearly inconsistent with the rulebook. I don't know who at FIRST gave the approval to do that. They weren't bad changes, but the process was not ideal.

ttedrow 26-05-2015 08:43

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Help stop the spread of this insanity.


Michigan has been setting non-standard age ranges for our FLL and FTC programs. They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams.

We need the FIRST community to help to bring these issues out in the open and make sure that this doesn't happen in other states. We are asking US FIRST to require all affiliate partners to follow the age requirements as publish by US FIRST. If you have a moment, please consider signing our petition:

https://www.change.org/p/us-first-fi...liate-partners

The more signatures we get, the better chance we will have of getting US FIRST to hear our case.

Alan Anderson 26-05-2015 13:03

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ttedrow (Post 1484172)
Michigan has been setting non-standard age ranges for our FLL and FTC programs. They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams.

How has FiM managed to affect teams in South Carolina?

Hot_Copper_Frog 26-05-2015 13:19

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
DISCLAIMER: The following post is my view, and my view alone. My opinions are not affiliated or derived from views held by FIRST in Michigan or Frog Force

With that out of the way, this is a really interesting discussion. As a long-time member of the FiM community, it was a little weird seeing this heated debate taking place NOW, when the concept has been widely circulated in Michigan for several years. I suppose it makes sense for everybody to get hot and bothered about it once it became official.

I've been in FIRST since 6th grade, participated all the way through FLL and FRC, and worked with FTC teams post-graduation. I currently have exposure to our local FTC and FLL teams, which adhere to the current age limit guidelines given by FiM.

I loved FLL when I was in 6th grade. I was bored with it in 7th grade. I had outgrown it in 8th grade and was itching to move up. I genuinely believe, from my own experience and from interacting with many teams and coaches, that elementary FLL and middle school FTC is a fantastic course for many reasons. It is challenging for students, and keeps them engaged for much longer by providing a clear cut progression of programs.

When FTC gets 6th graders that have already been through FLL, they benefit from the prior experience. When FRC gets 9th graders who have been through FTC, they become contributing and useful members from Day 1. It's been great for all of our students and I haven't heard any negative feedback from participants or coaches.

I think it will be a painful transition. I think there are still a lot of things to be figured out. I think it will be a great testing ground for FIRST as a whole, just like districts were. I trust our FiM leadership to make informed, fair, and wise decisions.

ttedrow 27-05-2015 10:39

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 1484210)
How has FiM managed to affect teams in South Carolina?

It hasn't yet. Rouge decisions like this have a tendency to spread. I would like FIRST to step up and say NO to FiM on this issue. They have clear rules and guidelines on ages for each program.

Hot_Copper_Frog 27-05-2015 14:31

Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ttedrow (Post 1484359)
It hasn't yet. Rouge decisions like this have a tendency to spread. I would like FIRST to step up and say NO to FiM on this issue. They have clear rules and guidelines on ages for each program.

Just like we had clear rules and guidelines for regional competition structure, alliance size, or single championship? Effective solutions tend to spread. Ideas that don't work generally...don't. Without innovation being applied to the way FIRST runs as an organization, it's dead in the water. Restricting the ability for change to come from within just suffocates a group.


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