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Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
Hi everyone,
For the last year our first affiliate partner in Michigan has been setting non-standard age ranges for our FLL and FTC programs. They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams. We need the FIRST community to help to bring these issues out in the open and make sure that this doesn't happen in other states. We are asking US FIRST to require all affiliate partners to follow the age requirements as publish by US FIRST. If you have a moment, please consider signing our petition: https://www.change.org/p/us-first-fi...liate-partners The more signatures we get, the better chance we will have of getting US FIRST to hear our case. Thanks for your support, Carla |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
Do you have any data to support that FiM is "killing" FLL?
You have made emotional and anecdotal cases for disagreeing with the structure FiM has established. Do you have data to support this petition? Namely, here are some basic data points to look at:
These statistics shouldn't be too hard to find for someone who knows where to look. The results of this information could then be extrapolated to students impacted by the progression of FIRST programs in Michigan, and an informed conclusion as to the effectiveness of FiM's model could be better evaluated. I'm very interested in hearing some data that supports or refutes the effectiveness of the FiM model. -Mike |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
Do have a reason to why they are doing it? After all, I'm sure they are more interested in starting more teams than restrict them.
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
Okay, just to be totally clear here (and the petition makes this relatively clear), FiM is not killing FLL. FiM has the position that FLL should be elementary schools only, FTC should be middle, and FRC should be high. Therefore there is less support for teams that deviate from this (although there's nothing FiM can do to teams that register despite not following FiM's structure).
Now, I'm aware of very reasonable opposition to this position. I know our FRC team is considering starting some intra-team VEX/FTC teams, and FiM's preferred structure does make us more likely to go with VEX. Does that mean FiM is necessarily wrong in their position? That's up for everybody to decide. I doubt we'll hear FiM's side of the story because their decision-maker(s) don't tend to get involved on this forum. |
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Team growth would be hard to quantify as a state grant helped new teams start while some old ones have left due to the changes. So I am unable to define the difference between the two. I don't want to give false information. The biggest problem is that myself and other coaches are watching Michigan kids who are not ready for the next level of FIRST pushed into these teams or simply leave the program. The overlapping ages as specified by the US FIRST organization allowed the kids that one extra year or two they needed to be a bit more prepared to move up. By removing the overlap they have put all students under a blanket statement with no room to accommodate any special needs. This is my 12th year coaching and over the years about 1 in 4 of our students who would not have been ready to move up to the next level are now pushed up to FTC by these rules. |
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In any case, the narrow eligibility for FTC has been a point of frustration for me for years now, and lowering the FLL cutoff age is also a disappointment. I feel like 5th graders won't be able to get the full depth of experience out of FLL at 10 years old with just one prior year of competition, especially given the breadth of strategy involved in both the robot game and the research project. |
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Are the Affiliates doing this with FIRST's approval?
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Are they specifically disallowing teams from forming? If so, how?
If not, are they merely not supporting teams that don't fit such criteria? |
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Disclaimer - I've always thought the FLL age going through 14 was wrong, an 8 yr old cannot compete against a 14 yr old. FTC has always felt weird to me getting shoe horned in a space that directly competes with two programs. If I were to be granted unlimited power to make decisions on these programs I'd probably have FLL (8-12), FTC (11-15) FRC (14-18) as the suggested ranges which closely matches what FiM is doing from the sounds of it. |
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Also, we all know Michigan (/FiM) plays by its own rules sometimes. My thinking would be that FIRST allows regions to do their own thing as a test to see if those regional ideas are good. For example, the district model was pretty good. |
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From what I have heard in passing over the years, FiM feels that the High School FTC program detracts from potential FRC teams, as running an FTC team is much cheaper and thus more appealing to many high schools.
Since FiMs (apparent) goal is to expand FRC as much as possible in Michigan, they pushed the other programs down to lower age levels to prevent overlap. That said, IMO one of the reasons FTC has had such a hard time getting off the ground (given that it is the smallest of the FIRST programs), is because the age overlap prevents it from having it's own niche (FLL is generally viewed as FIRST's middle school program, while FRC is viewed as the high school program). If FiM can get enough middle schools on board, you could actually end up seeing a huge increase in the number of FTC teams down the road. Whether this policy is sustainable or not remains to be seen. |
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Regardless, FIRST Programs in Michigan have been under FiM's leadership for 7 years now. Growth Numbers over 7 years (as compared to the rest of the country) will give insight into whether or not FiM has proven to be an effective steering committee for either the entire progression of FIRST Programs, only some of them, or none of at all. This data would in no way discount the experiences and trends each Coach/Mentor has seen in their teams/regions/spheres of influence. I'm simply interested in the macro-level data that can provide a different perspective. -Mike |
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I agree and also worry that this might be a pilot program that will have consequences across the country and/or world. That is why we are trying to get people to speak out now so that FIRST hears us. I know a lot of coaches from all my years here in Michigan and many are afraid to speak out against these changes out of fear that their teams will be punished for it. |
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Michigan on the other hand is now limiting and leaving out the students who are not ready to move up. All students learn at different paces and some are simple not ready at 13 to move up. I don't want to see those children left out. |
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So we're not arguing IF there should be a cutoff, since you clearly are ok with a cutoff as has existed for nearly 2 decades. You're arguing is that FiM's cutoff is too low? So this we can put something more than an opinion. What are the primary differences between FLL and FTC from a student development stand point? Please be specific. Based on those, what is the typical age at which 80% of students have reached this development? What, if any sort of accommodations need to be made for the 20% of students that don't reach this checkpoint? For example: an appeals process to "you're in 9th grade you can't compete in FLL even if you emotionally aren't ready for FRC" Edit: Corsetto - try harder. The mental image is totally worth it. |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
FiM has always tried new things for Michigan. The district system was tested in Michigan, and FiM has turned it into a very fluid system. MSC this year is proof of that. 101 of 102 teams having an average of over 100 points shows the level of competition that Michigan has, and I think there's a lot going on in the entire FiM program that assists with this.
These statements are my own and may not be the opinions of FiM I personally love the system that FiM has. I think this system should be incorporated by FIRST for these reasons: I believe this system works out so well because every group is interacting with each other. FRC students coach JFLL teams and mentor FLL/FTC teams, and FTC teams are encouraged to mentor FLL teams. JFLL kids learn are introduced to research and legos, FLL kids learn autonomous programming and presentation skills, FTC kids learn how to build a robot that can directly compete against others, and explore community outreach, and FRC kids do all of this at a very high competitive level. Each program builds upon the previous, and this is why Michigan FRC teams have that level of quality. I don't know the exact numbers, but I know JFLL, FTC, and FRC teams have increased in FiM every year for a while now. The last FTC State event had to be split into two divisions and move into a new venue, and MSC had 102 teams in it. As for FLL shrinking, I do not know if that's true or not. As for myself, I would have loved to have joined FTC as a student if there was a team in my school already. The gap between FLL and FRC is huge, and I would recommend every student to follow FiM's guidelines. Having coached a FTC team that went to Iowa City Super-Regionals, I can go on in great detail of the difference between High School FTC teams and Jr. High School FTC teams. However, I think those students are missing out on the bigger challenge which is FRC. TL;DR: I believe FiM has an excellent system, and FIRST should adopt these guidelines. FIRST's goal is to increase the quanity and quality of FRC teams, and this system is the best way of doing so. |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
I didn't start doing robotics until my freshman year of high school. I did not go through all the levels of FIRST. While I did not start with FTC, I started with Vex. There was no way I could have jumped straight to FRC that year. Vex gave me a solid knowledge base about the basics of robotics and the competition environment. It would have been way too intimidating to have started in FRC.
Just my 2¢. |
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FiM has been more explicit in their goals to grow and sustain FRC in their state. |
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I am glad you are bringing something to discuss on CD. However using a sensational title and less than accurate facts and no data to convince people is not the way to do it. If you want to discuss this, please state all the facts and not just the ones that you want people to know. People outside of Michigan are not going to understand it completely. You are using scare tactics and asking people to sign a petition without giving them accurate and complete facts. |
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Edit: Woops I misread OP. They have forced this on you. Disregard my argument. Quote:
The thread title implies that Michigan will "kill" FLL with its model. I think it's fair to say the title is quite the hyberbole and that Michigan's numbers prove it is not killing the program. |
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...VRTZ VE&gid=3 2012-2013 FiM FTC Teams: 57 2013-2014 FiM FTC Teams: 166 2014-2015 FiM FTC Teams: 203 For FLL, I could only get data from last season (454) as well as teams that have already signed up for next year (27). I as well as many others do not appreciate the inflamatory title (though I imagine it helps get attention). "FiM is growing FTC and FLL, but not following the normal FIRST rules in regards to age limits, but has hugely supported via adminisitering state and coproate grants" just doesn't have the same ring... I recommend discussing the policy with those in charge. I don't think you will get them to change their minds, but you may get a better understanding of their perspective. |
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Michigan had 352 FLL teams in 2012 and 328 FLL teams in 2013. My numbers may be off by a little but these were the numbers last reported on the FiM website during those two years.
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Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
I probably have a different perspective than those from a pure engineering background on this board. As a scientist and an FLL coach, I am impressed with the variety and ingenuity of the research/innovation put forth by FLL teams each year. The non-robot-building part of the competition is something that is only emphasized in FLL, and I don't think that most younger kids (3rd-5th grade) can reach their full potential -- or even have the proper skills -- to create a high-level project.
Because everyone on the team is forced to answer questions from the judges, I've had a group of six very shy 4th-6th graders who turned into outgoing 6th-8th graders by their 3rd year who were self-motivated and able to make presentations to and answer questions from any adults they met. I've had the good fortune to meet the kids and coaches of many top FLL teams from around the world the last two years, and they are a very well-rounded bunch. I'd suggest reading some of the studies from Brandeis University about FLL and its impact, located on the FIRST Impacts page: http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/impact I hope that the folks at FiM, who in many ways set the direction of FIRST programs, have done some serious research into what is best for the kids and can share those data with the coaches/parents of the middle school students who will be affected by this drastic deviation from FLL requirements in the rest of the world. If FiM is the organization implementing the change, then they are the ones who should be presenting data on why it is needed rather than making a top-down decision that is forced on everyone just to make it fit a certain age/program progression. It seems like a majority of folks on here hate when top-down decisions from FIRST HQ are pressed onto everyone with no input or consensus from the community, so I am not sure why this would be any different than that. Travis |
Our school district is looking at expanding first to the other schools and this is the structure they want to follow. As a small district we have to keep to one program per school and Im sure this is what fim is thinking too. Don't see anything wrong with it.
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I have a friend from gymnastics who goes to a school where they have a large frc program and 3 ftc programs. He was involved with ftc throughout middle school and loved it. Going into high school he continued ftc and expected to go to frc when the ftc season ended. However they got to the next round of competition. So now he has the option to go away from a program he has been doing for 3 years when they need it most or to graduate to the more advanced program to be a rookie member. With a lot of thinking he chose to do ftc for one last year. The next year he started with the same thing. Doing ftc and expecting to go to frc for the season. However the same thing happened. They made it to the next level and bam he had to choose ftc again once again missing out on the frc experience. This year I convinced him to come over to frc however now he is starting out doing frc as a junior. He lost 2 years of an experience that is much more intense, advanced and life changing. Not to say ftc isnt any of those things but it doesn't compare to frc. That's where my view comes from. |
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-Mike |
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Everyone has a part on our team and its usually somewhat substantial. Fgs look at my job list. However when I go to competitions and see the members sitting in the stands who don't know the difference between autonomous and teleop I see where this article is. Ftc seems to be on average more engaging but frc if engaged properly can be much closer to the real world and provide experiences like none other. |
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*This post is purely an example, I will not admit to believing in or not believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
Hmmm,
Is this discussion about FIRST robotics programs? If it is, I think I know where to find the rules governing them. Or Is this discussion about Michigan robotics programs? I don't know where to find the rules governing them; but I would be interested in seeing them. AND... I'm starting to think my prediction that blurring the line between programs governed by FIRST rules, and programs governed by state rules (see the two or three CD threads with a theme of Yippee! our State has a robotics championship sanctioned by the state educational system...) would cause train wrecks; is being confirmed. The sort of confusion being discussed in this thread is what you risk when when you try to blend a program like FIRST with with one run by some other organization that has overlapping, but not identical goals. The risk is especially high when that other organization is (or is tightly tied to) a state educational bureaucracy (aka something with a lot of psychic momentum, and plans of its own). Remember, FRC/FTC/FLL are *not* *not* *not* school programs. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
Blake |
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Before this past season, I coached 8 years-worth of 7th and 8th grade FLL teams. Like many others upon hearing about the age guidelines, I was extremely concerned about the readiness of late elementary school students for the FLL program and middle school students for the FTC program. I gave those age guidelines a try with 2 FLL teams and 1 FTC team this past season. I'll tell you what - Those students had an absolute blast and have been raving about going through the FLL-FTC-FRC progression.
My main point is - If the resources are there, give the guidelines a try! You might find yourself pleasantly surprised about how well things go. |
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FiM isn't killing FLL, here's what they're doing: 1)giving FLL a different age range, one that will even out competition between teams with older and younger students. 2)smoothing out the progression of programs to have no strange gray areas. 3)offering FTC the opportunity to no longer be that awkward stage between FLL and FRC by giving it its own unique age range. 4)pushing students to learn more about complex problem solving and critical thinking at a younger age by putting them in a more competitive setting at a younger age. |
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FIRST has a set of programs and FIRST publishes rules that govern them. What does FiM have/do? I realize that I am being a gadfly, but these questions are the elephant in the room. |
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About the fact that FIM seems to be pushing out FLL, I personally like the idea of FTC as a lower grade level. I know the big thing is that it costs more to run an FRC team than an FTC team and that there are schools who can't afford to run an FRC team but Michigan has never had very many FTC teams. FRC is growing very rapidly in Michigan and a lot of it is due to the grant money that has come recently but as far as I can remember Michigan has always been a state with a lot of FRC teams. FIM's goal currently (as well as FIRST in general) is to get a robotics program in every high school. FIM wants an FRC team in every high school. By putting an FRC team in every high school there is no more need for FTC teams in the high schools so why not make it in the grade schools? On the flip side of this, Michigan is turning from being one of the most competitive states to compete at to the the state who has some elite teams, a bunch of average teams and some below average teams. Granted if these teams survive they will get better with experience but many of these teams won't survive. The money just isn't there. These teams might be able to survive as an FTC team though which would give the students the ability to have some sort of STEM hands on education that they otherwise might not have. So maybe we do have FTC and FRC in the high schools, one is for the schools who can afford the expensive nature of FRC and the other for the teams who can not. I know that I wouldn't be the same person I am today without the FIRST experience I had, but I don't know if the FTC experience would have effected me as much as the FRC experience did. But some experience is better than no experience. |
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FIRST should create an actual middle school program.
It's super awkward to use FTC as a middle school program, because then you have 12 year olds competing with 18 year olds. Making FTC middle school across the board is a bad option because that would remove access to FIRST at thousands of high schools. As for FiM, they're at least trying to adjust the middle school issue in a way that they have available. I think their solutions is among the best options available to them. It helps that MI has funding for FRC registration fees, so the access issue is not as bad as in most places. Leaving middle school kids hanging like this is a big mistake. While FIRST drops off the earth in middle school, athletics and fine arts are continuing right along, and kids get established in those activities instead. FIRST programs are competing with those activities for peoples' energy. |
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The STEM choices aren't (had better not be) FIRST or nothing. If they are, FIRST and its participants and supporters have failed. Blake |
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While I won't hold it against Michigan for running things their own way, I'm very much opposed to extending their rules for the progression of FIRST programs across every program in the states or outside of them. Telling everyone, everywhere, that FRC is the only high school robotics program available to them in the FIRST progression isn't a sensible approach for many areas of the United States, much less the world. There are many communities for which FRC is prohibitively expensive-- telling them the only FIRST program they can do is leaving high school students in those areas with fewer options than they had before, which isn't good for anyone.
Michigan may be able to afford this model because of their state grants, but most everywhere else that's simply impractical. If I have a group of high schoolers in a town that has less than 500 people living in it, it's ridiculous to expect them to pony up for an FRC team. Yes, I'm aware that VEX or BEST are out there, but I don't think it aligns with FIRST's goals to say "Sorry, but you don't fit into our model, go somewhere else." FIRST has and is being run as a very inclusive and flexible organization. Regional partners have a good deal of freedom to run programs in their areas how they see fit, and I see no reason to change that at this point. |
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If FiM has raised/found/scrounged/etc. funds, then it is reasonable that they should be able to distribute them as they see fit. If you want FiM support, then you have to play by FiM's rules.
If they are holding FIRST events, however, they have to follow FIRST's rules. If FIRST doesn't enforce their rules in Michigan, then they lose the moral authority (if not the legal authority) to enforce those rules in other areas. Personally I believe that FTC is very appropriate for high school students, and, like VEX, is arguably educationally more sound than FRC in many respects. And I will point out that VEX and VEX IQ are just two of the many excellent alternatives to FIRST branded programs. If you don't like FiM's approach, the best way to vote is with your feet. Nothing gets an event organizer to pay attention more quickly than having half of their teams walk away.... Jason |
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I'm saving a longer post for later, but anyone who thinks that 13 and 14 year olds are beyond FLL at this point are not approaching FLL from a competative angle. There are so many things still to learn, and every year I'm floored with the new stuff the kids on my team come up with. I'm even more floored when I dare to go on Youtube and see what some of the top teams have done.
Remember that 14 is only the age cap in North America due to the prevalence of FTC and FRC teams, it's 16 globally. If I had the choice I would have absolutely continued with FLL for another two years (in addition to FRC mind you), and I like to think of myself as a fairly competent mechanical student. I'd be interested in seeing some of the FLL student and alumni testimonials FiM gathered before approaching this new model. Quote:
In the Toronto region, there are 3 events only open to Toronto District School Board teams. Community teams ect. have to go to other events, even though they payed to be a team and follow all the same rules as the TDSB teams. |
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VEX is going great, though! Jason |
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FiM is dictating to all FLL teams in their "territory" what the rules will be and that they are re-aligning the age group boundaries to suit a school-based bureaucracy. This may be a good thing or it may be a bad thing. Unfortunately, or fortunately, they have no jurisdiction in other territories. Their change will create more disparity in the age ranges seen when teams from their territory go to the World Festival or any of the Invitationals not under their control. My understanding of why FIRST allows 16 year-olds outside of North America to participate in FLL because, until recently, they did not offer FTC and FRC events in most of the Rest of the World.
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Historically, about 60-70% of the teams in the South Texas Region are affiliated with a school in some way. The balance were community teams, Girl/Boy Scout teams, church group teams, homeschool group teams, family based teams and teams based at for-profit robotics education companies. Would all these other teams be excluded from participating in FiM run FLL events? Would these teams be able to participate in FLL events outside of FiM's territory? I believe that in Texas, teams are only allowed to register for events in their geographic region. I somehow don't think that it is in FIRST's interest to exclude so many participants. |
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If 13-14 year olds were at the center of the debate I wouldn't feel nearly as strongly about the changes (we'd switch them to FTC/VRC and call it a day), but most of my kids affected by this change are 11. Around 25% of them are still 10 (turning 11 sometime between June-October) but they'll be in 6th grade in the fall, so FLL isn't an option. Have most 11 year olds really grown out of FLL? My anecdotal perspective on this is that my 11 year old 6th graders are finally hitting the point where they can be successful in the FLL robot game and more or less navigate the research project independently without major frustration. |
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And FTC is also only 7th grade up so you wouldnt be dealing with 11 year olds. You would be dealing with 12/13 year olds. When I was 12 or 13 I would have want the harder challange but thats me. |
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The exact language for the FLL age range is "Students in 4th grade through the end of elementary school." and since most of our school districts are divided as elementary school K-5, middle school 6-8, high school 9-12 that means that most 11 year old 6th graders are being funneled into FTC and not allowed to participate in FLL. Spreadsheet here showing all 28 school districts in Oakland county, MI and the manner in which they divide their progression from elementary to middle school to high school. 18 districts define middle school as 6th-8th grade, 7 districts define middle school as starting in 7th grade (going through 8th or 9th), 1 defines middle school as starting in 5th grade (or rather, it seems like 5th-8th is housed in the same building, I can't tell beyond that), and 2 weren't immediately obvious. Edit: Oops. In the time it took me to make a spreadsheet cbale beat me to it. |
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How does FiM deal with home school or parochial school teams? Are there schools that don't delineate students by grade level or age? Is it mandated by FiM that teams have a public institution and grade level or age affiliation? I know several individuals who were 15 year-old high school graduates who've moved on to a very successful collegiate and professional careers. They began HS classes as 10 year-olds. Will future students like them be excluded from FRC?
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I hear that this is the model that a lot of areas are looking into. Here in WV, we have seen tremendous growth in FLL, and a bit of FTC growth, too.
One thing we are noticing is that as a kid starts FLL in 3rd grade, by the time they are in 8th grade, they've done it for 6 seasons or more, and start to get burned out. FTC is a great model for middle schools, but I disagree that it should be *only* middle school. We are looking at bringing FTC to more middle schools (in the past, we only looked at FLL for middle school), but also for our high schools. I guess what I'm saying is that it isn't really a bad thing to have FLL end at 5th grade. |
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The usage of school-grades as a metric is an exceedingly poor one, and it should be done by ages. At the same time, why deny high schools that may not be able to participate in FRC the opportunity to participate in FTC if they want?
Parents can afford to run an FTC team. Few could financial fund an FRC team. So you've just denied ANY participation to students whose high school/area doesn't support an FRC team. FRC, not FiM, needs to take the initiative and clean this all up. At the same time, they need to normalize the age around the world. Split FLL into two age groups at the Festival. 8-12 and 12-16. Mandate that qualifications be done the same way. Split FTC into two age groups as well. Become more inclusive but at the same time make sure you aren't having 8 year olds competing against 16 year olds. And yes, it's a competition. |
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I think we're just running into the consequences of how FIRST expanded FLL and FTC-- they gave them to a regional partner and gave them a way to plug into Championships but otherwise let them run how they want. I know there's some friction in Minnesota about how we do judging versus how FIRST tells us we should be doing judging. Now that programs are maturing in many areas, FIRST is probably going to want to standardize things more. It'll be interesting to see how that works. |
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One thing that may stop younger roboteers and FRC is liability for power tool usage. When I was doing direct teams the insurance underwriter was unhappy about roboteers less than 14 using power tools. We worked out a "they will go through training and we will have proof" and they agreed to that. (And for the 4 years I only had parent/mentor injuries :rolleyes: Quote:
I don't live in Michigan, so I'm not going to throw rocks. But I follow the following: Don't like the rules/game? -- Follow the rules. -- Break the rules but be prepared -- Make or change the game/rules and see if you can add followers But there are a ton of really cool robotics things you can do, FIRST isn't the only robot game! |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
I came up to FRC through FLL in Michigan.
As far as I know, (Mainly through emails from FiM) all of the grant money provided from the state are funneled through the public schools. When I coached and we competed in FLL, the team was funded by 3 families, although we were associated with the elementary school, the school and district did not provide any funding, or meeting space for the team. Contrary to what Tom said, I am not sure we could have funded an FTC team, at that time. We were putting about a $1,000 per family in the budget to do FLL, travel and compete. Not sure how much more we could afford to put to robot materials, motors, gears, ect that the FTC required. (Back then FTC wasn't an option, it didn't exist) Back then (2005-2008) there were many home schooled teams and community teams from 4-H and Girl Scouts that were doing FLL. Teams not associated with school districts, therefore not able to get any of the grant funding. (My take, not fact, just my impression.. citation needed) Many times these non-school teams were some of the most competitive teams. I tried to look up the Michigan state champions in FLL, but could not find a listing. In the times we competed, I am pretty sure there were home school teams that were state champs. Seems like forcing these teams with no access to the grant money, to step up to FTC, or FRC, is counter productive to the mission of FIRST. I know our team placed 2nd in 2008 in the Novi State Championship. (Michigan has two FLL state championships) I am pretty sure, (memory defective) we lost to a home schooled team. This year we had 3 middle schooled aged students on a team of 6. FLL is a progression, a process to go from a rookie, to almost a state champ, and it was a 4 year process for us. It was student focused, and the students solved the problems over the years. They were not bored, in fact they were more engaged the last year, because they understood the game (hint: It's all about cycle time) and what needed to be done to win. (and in Michigan 2nd place in FLL, did not get you Championships) |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
Excuse my ignorance, but does every student in Michigan who participates in FLL have the opportunity to easily become involved in the FTC program when they graduate to middle school?
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But now I see a lot more schools that have expanded to FTC, so it may easier for students to find a team now. |
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On the topic of FTC in Michigan, here's something that may be interesting: there are zero FTC teams in the Upper Peninsula, and only 5? north of about Cadillac. In comparison, there are 2? VRC teams in the UP, 22 FRC teams, and something like a dozen FLL teams (several of which are middle school programs).
On one hand, I do appreciate that FLL is being pushed as an elementary program so that FLL and FTC don't try to conflict as a middle school programs. Several years ago, FIM was pushing FTC, but if it and FLL were going to be middle school programs, many northern schools would have ended up choosing one or the other. On the less fortunate hand, pushing FLL into elementary may cause a temporary lack of good middle school robotics programs (at least FIRST ones, anyway) in the UP. This is partly because, say, for Houghton, the nearest FLL competition is 2 hours away, but the nearest FTC competition is 6+ hours away. (The nearest VRC events appear to be a similar distance away in WI and MN). Quote:
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I personally think FIRST should axe FTC, and make Jr. FLL expand to all of elementary, and FLL is all of middle school, and FRC is all of high school.
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1. FLL is a good challenge for elementary school kids. I've been mentoring an FLL team of 4th and 5th graders, and although they tend to need someone to keep them focused, they're definitely more than able to understand what they're doing, and they enjoy it. I don't know a lot about Jr FLL, but from what I've seen, I don't think they'll be getting the same thing out of it. 2. FRC is not affordable in all areas. It's just too expensive. FTC can reach students that otherwise won't have the ability to participate in FIRST. It's definitely not an easy problem though. I did FLL in 7th grade and found it both challenging and enjoyable (although we had almost no adult help, so it was more difficult because of that). I also see the issue with having 4th graders competing against 8th graders. Having different competitions for age groups within FLL (e.g. 4-6th grade and 7-8th grade compete separately) might be one way to do it, but then there would be a problem for mixed age teams... |
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400+ FLL teams with max capacity of 10 per team, and 203 FTC teams with a max capacity of 15. There is a huge push to start more FTC teams in Michigan, but clearly, there are kids being left behind as they transition between elementary to middle school. And as Christopher149 pointed out there is a huge geographic hurdle to overcome if you live in the UP or upper LP. |
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I know there is a slight tone of elitism that comes into play when FTC is talked about as a highschool program (see post here for a much longer thread on that), however, in most cases, FTC presents an equal, if not better, alternative to FRC for schools or organizations that cannot form a FRC team for whatever reason. In the end, all the FIRST programs as they are, are effective in their specific roles. FIRST, as an international organization has put lots of consideration into these roles. In my opinion, it isn't reasonable for a state to overrule the national standard. |
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Fim is in Michigan which gives huge grants to run FRC. In Michigan schools can afford it. So it makes sense that they did this. However is this a good change right now nationally maybe not because not every state has grants like Michigan. |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
I highly doubt that FLL is going anywhere. Dean Kamen's "mission" for us was to expand FLL. FiM is the fastest growing district in FIRST, so they couldn't get rid of it. Also, FLL gets them more PR and recognition, it's not going anywhere.
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I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere yet, but would enforcing this separation between FTC and FRC also prohibit middle-school students from participating in FRC?
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It's been effective in our area. We've only seen 1 of the teams we've started through the grant end up folding when it went away (this was a couple years ago when FiM would pay the first year but not the second). |
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While I agree with the 1st half of your statement, I disagree with the 2nd half. Ability is far more important than age/grade and that's the issue I have with bureaucratic entities and the arbitrary metrics they use. I've been a FRC mentor for 15 years. I've seen 7th graders that were ready for FRC and I've seen 10th graders that weren't. My question to FiM is: Why must the programs be separated? Why should they not be allowed to overlap? My question to the Michigan community is: is the program you run a FiM program or a FIRST program? The answer to that should dictate which set of rules you'd want to follow. FiM has done a lot of good for the FIRST community, thus I am very willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But I would be interested to see the data that they based this decision on. |
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To an extent, this also holds true when you compare FTC to FLL, FLL is cheaper and thus more appealing, but since FTC is also largely paid for by state grants in Michigan, making FTC the only Middle School program helps promote FTC at that level and expand the number of teams (which the data posted earlier in this thread has shown). JrFLL and FLL are then delegated to their own grade ranges giving a very clear progression in the FIRST program. The real question that needs to be asked is not whether or not this change has benefited team growth (arguably the data shows that it has), but has it benefited students. This is a much harder metric to gauge but it will be an important one going forwards. Speaking as a student who participated in FLL in 7th and 8th grades; when I moved into high school, I was totally unprepared to join an FRC team, I went to a few meetings in the fall and maintained a "deer in the headlights" mentality the entire time. Needless to say, I dropped out of the team my 9th grade year (something I regret to this day) and ended up joining back the following year. Had I had exposure to a program like FTC in Middle School I think I would have been much more prepared for FRC when I got into high school. Now to answer your second question: I don't know. The jurisdiction that FiM has over Michigan teams has been one of these confusing grey areas since it was implemented. On one side, I've yet to see any instances where FiM has directly contradicted FIRST, but on the other hand, there are policies that FiM implements that differ substantially from FIRST. In some ways you could think of it like how our government works, the Federal government can create rules that apply to everyone, then states can create non-conflicting rules that are tailored specifically to their needs. If you wanted to take the analogy further, you could compare individual competitions to local governments, where you can again make rules (in FIRSTs case, mostly procedural) for the municipality so long as they don't conflict with state or federal rules. |
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Combine what you wrote with the reasonable assertions that:
Perhaps there is some other compelling, fiscally-sound, student-focused motivation at work? If there is, someone please post it. Blake PS: To stay on-topic, I think the same arguments hold true if you substitute FLL for FTC, FTC for FRC, and you shift the student age ranges appropiately. |
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I would also point out that another way FIRST has worked to inspire students is to pair them with mentors from STEM fields, while I personally have no experience on an FTC team, I would venture to guess that there is not nearly as much need for professional mentors on an FTC team where kids can build most things by hand, compared to an FRC team where various manufacturing techniques are employed to design and build machines. You're right that FTC is more cost effective, but it remains to be proven to be equally or more inspiring than FRC. Again, these thoughts are based on the impressions I've gotten of FiM activities over the years. It's not my intention to say that this is the best solution everywhere, or even that it necessarily works great here in Michigan (time will tell). Either way, essentially what we're doing is hypothesizing about the motives of an organization that no one yet to post in this thread is directly part of. The question that remains to be asked is this: has anyone bothered to actually send an email to FiM and ask them what their rational is for their policy? |
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I know some kids who are inspired by working with adult mentors on FRC teams and some kids who strongly prefer being able to "own the process" more on their FTC teams. Different kids are inspired by different environments. I think it's great that FIRST offers both. Quote:
"FRC members were more likely to report increases in their interest in science and technology (97% vs. 95%), in their plans to take science or math courses (90% vs. 86%) and in their interest in going to college (92% vs. 87%). FRC team members were also more likely to report learning about key values, including Gracious Professionalism (96% vs. 90%) and volunteering in the community (83% vs. 74%). Team leaders reported a similar set of gains. FTC team members, on the other hand, were substantially more likely to report an increased interest in computer programming (91% vs. 78%) and were as likely as FRC participants to report that they were interested in science and engineering careers (85% vs. 83%). FTC and FRC team members were also equally likely to report gains on questions related to life and workplace skills (FRC members were more likely to report gains in communications and cooperation skills, but there were no significant differences between program on the responses to the other skill questions). " The numbers are pretty darn similar, showing the very similar benefits of both programs, IMHO. |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
These are my replies and opinions. I think we agree more than disagree.
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A subtle, but important point is that over the course of a day I might enjoy watching an FRC circus more than I would enjoy watching an FTC circus (the same is probably true for my next-door neighbor and other average joes); but! I would get more STEM-spiration out of being an intimate part of my FTC team, than I would get out being one of the herd in an FRC team; especially if I'm not one of the core members of that FRC team. Quote:
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Blake PS: FRC is a great program to use as the cherry on top of the sundae, but it's not so great as the one-size-fits-all sundae. |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
As an FLL coach for over 10 years, I have seen many teams and individuals grow through the FLL program learning research skills, presentation skills, teamwork skills, learning the process of designing, building and programming, and developing innovative solutions to real issues. The elementary kids do ok with that but the middle school students really get it.
I see value in offering FTC for middle school students who are ready for a new challenge and not ready to jump into FRC, however taking FLL away as an option for middle school is limiting skills these students can develop. I have had several students go directly from FLL to FRC with no issue because they have learned the FIRST values, and basic skills that have given them the ability to learn the new skills needed for FRC. I have no problem with FIM limiting grant money to fit their goals, but for those of us not running teams in schools, I hope FIRST will not allow them to continue to create separate standards that would limit FIRST growth in areas where there are no FIRST programs in the local schools. I currently have 25 new families on my list who have specifically contacted me about "LEGO robotics." For the students who are in the 6-8th grade range, I would hate to tell them that LEGO Robotics is not an option for them and lose the opportunity to have them get involved in FIRST because it was the LEGO that attracted them in the first place. I cannot count how many people have joined one of our FIRST (75-100 kids total in JrFLL, FLL, and FRC) teams originally because of the LEGO connection. |
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So yeah they may have funding available for FRC teams at HS level in MI but do they have the people willing to make the time commitment at every school? |
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I'd be willing to bet that if you stacked up FTC and FRC total time commitments, they'd be pretty close, as far as building and competing go. (Other items, no contest it'll be FRC eating the time.) |
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And there's this in the report too: "FTC team members were more likely to report that team members made the important decisions (97% vs. 93%) and to reject the idea that adults on the team did the most difficult jobs (87% vs. 78%). FRC team members, were more likely to report that they had a chance to get to know one of the adults on the team (93% vs. 90%); that they learned a lot from the adults (92% vs. 81%); that adults on the team talked about college (70% vs. 57%), and that they felt they belonged on their team (94% vs. 92%). While those differences were statistically significant (i.e., unlikely to have occurred by chance), in practical terms they are small and likely reflect differences in emphasis rather than major differences in program quality. Overall 97% of the FTC participants and 99% of those in FRC reported that they “had fun working on my FIRST team” – another important indicator of a quality program experience. " |
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Well the FTC build season length varies greatly depending on area and how well the team does. In our area the FTC competition season is in Nov and Dec with the state CMP in January if the team makes it that far. For FTC I'd estimate a low of 70hrs and a high of 140hrs per season in our area. For FRC I'd estimate a low of 250 hrs and a high of 360 hrs per competition season in our area. Note we do a league play format for FTC so 3 plays before the state CMP and we do the District System for FRC so two plays before DCMP and in both of those cases the time I estimated did not include moving on to the state/District CMP. The other thing is that even in an area with a long FTC season the time commitment per week is low so it allows time to study for all those AP classes, and other activities while the usual 6 days per week of many FRC teams makes it hard to do those other things too. |
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I ran an FLL team for 7 years along with an FRC team. I found the kids who were older in FLL getting bored. They wanted to use tools like the older kids. We made the decision to move up to FTC. Love it! It has made our FRC team much stronger. We have our FRC students mentor the FTC students and this year they even decided to take on a JrFLL team.
We now have 2 FTC teams and could have 3 if we wanted to. Both teams have made it to the Super Regional and competed against the 18 year old students. One of our teams had the highest qualifying score at the event and they scored a majority of those points. Middle school students are very capable of competing against high school students. We are a home schooled group. We don't receive the funding like everybody else. We are able to gain sponsors though. That being said, I would rather the kids gain sponsors than to rely on the state to support us. The sponsors we have currently see the importance of what we are doing and have increased yearly the funding. Please don't knock what FiM is trying to do. Give it a try. I remember when FiM went to the district model, people weren't happy. Many said it was the end of FIRST. Change is always difficult at first but when you give kids the chance, they are pretty resilient and can rise to the challenge. I have kids who are autistic and 1 who is dealing with cerebral palsy. They are handling it just fine. In fact they win the Inspire Award 3 years in a row at a district level. |
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On the other hand I know several teams that typically meet 4-6 or more hrs per week day and 6-8 or even 10 or 12 on Sat through out the build season and then meet at least 20 or more hours per week through the competition season not including events. When I was with 2046 there were two years we had the shop open and working furiously from the time school got out on Fri until Midnight on bag day, or about 105 hrs in the last half of the last week. No not everyone was there all of those hours as there were 3 shifts but a handful of people, both students and mentors worked more than one 8 hour shift per day. |
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However, I am definitely curious to learn more about the financial model that is coupled to those intentions. When I ran the numbers in the situations I have been in, the results always clearly lead me to push for a different compromise on behalf of the students and the financiers. I'm curious what's different in their situation. Blake |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
While the discussion of age cutoffs and the progression of programs is important and relevant, I feel it is drowning out another very important topic that is raised. It's been briefly alluded to a couple times already, but hasn't been really discussed. What degree of autonomy should the various region/district affiliates of FIRST be granted from FIRST HQ? Are they allowed to deviate from HQ's standards? In what areas and by how much?
While the expansion of the district format* will certainly make this an increasingly relevant concern (and we've seen some notable differences between districts in how they handle aspects of their competitions), it's not just limited to districts. There are other entities that exist in regional-format areas that run events, some "official" and some not. Should their organizing powers be limited to how they run events? How they administer funds/support to teams in their "jurisdiction?" And who determines their jurisdiction? Can they impose additional restrictions on the teams in their areas**? Should teams be given an "opt-out" standard from whatever organization runs their area***? Would these opt-outs allow them to opt out of a district standard? Can these organizations actively prohibit teams from registering or competing at events****? What burden of proof/explanation is required for any deviations away from the FIRST HQ standards? As you can see, this is opening quite the can of worms. There needs to be some sort of standard created for the delegation of authorities to these organizations. *Michigan's reluctance to have the FIRST Tech Challenge available to high school students predates the district format, going back to at least 2007. **Such as Minnesota's additional bag'n'tag requirements for an "off-season" State Championship event ***There was one MAR team that attempted to register as being from a different state in 2012 so they could continue to attend regional competitions instead of switching to the district format. ****Can FiM actively prevent a middle school FLL team from registering? From competing in an event organized by FiM? |
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My recommendation is that FIRST provide a list of what is and is not permissible for local governing bodies, and release it to the public—so that everyone knows who's not playing by the rules. The standards need to be equitable—and it will require some thought as to how that should be measured—and should be designed to be re-evaluated at known intervals. Part and parcel of setting out these standards is an explanation of why the standards exist—for example, if a particular vendor is required because of contract terms, then disclose that. Definitely spell out the powers of the local governing body here, and explain exactly why they're entitled to vary certain procedures, particularly when it could appear to be an advantage for some teams. Jurisdiction is tricky because it's convenient to form organizations that follow neat administrative boundaries, and correspond to the same boundaries forever. So there's a natural urge to go state-by-state. But that's inequitable and frankly, laughable.1 Representation by population of teams, participants or general population all have their advantages. Some geographic grouping is clearly desirable, but the optimal extent is unclear. I think the guidance should be that local governing bodies should make every attempt to adopt a structure that permits adjustment as the competition's needs change. Changing game rules should, for the moment and the foreseeable future, be prohibited. Changing tournament rules should be something that FIRST formalizes and publishes in their rules, thereby proving that FIRST assented to the changes instead of letting them slip through.2 There are precedents in other sports for different sanctioning bodies to establish slightly different rules, and it hinders interchangeability of players, facilities and statistics. Until such time as the FRC game doesn't change annually, there's enough uncertainty in the new game that adding more (due to the whims of a local governing body) doesn't seem wise. 1 In the same way that apportionment of seats in the U.S. senate is difficult to justify, given the powers that the body wields and its legislative role. 2 When (some years ago) FIRST Robotics Canada ran a regional with an extra playoff round, or another regional with byes instead of an 8th alliance, those changes were not widely known outside of those events. They certainly weren't announced officially, and were clearly inconsistent with the rulebook. I don't know who at FIRST gave the approval to do that. They weren't bad changes, but the process was not ideal. |
Re: Keep FIRST in Michigan (FiM) from killing FIRST Lego League
Help stop the spread of this insanity.
Michigan has been setting non-standard age ranges for our FLL and FTC programs. They have excluded middle school students from FLL and high school students from FTC. It has caused problems not only for our students who are not mentally or emotionally ready to move up but also puts a bigger burden on the coaches, schools and organizations that run these teams. We need the FIRST community to help to bring these issues out in the open and make sure that this doesn't happen in other states. We are asking US FIRST to require all affiliate partners to follow the age requirements as publish by US FIRST. If you have a moment, please consider signing our petition: https://www.change.org/p/us-first-fi...liate-partners The more signatures we get, the better chance we will have of getting US FIRST to hear our case. |
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DISCLAIMER: The following post is my view, and my view alone. My opinions are not affiliated or derived from views held by FIRST in Michigan or Frog Force
With that out of the way, this is a really interesting discussion. As a long-time member of the FiM community, it was a little weird seeing this heated debate taking place NOW, when the concept has been widely circulated in Michigan for several years. I suppose it makes sense for everybody to get hot and bothered about it once it became official. I've been in FIRST since 6th grade, participated all the way through FLL and FRC, and worked with FTC teams post-graduation. I currently have exposure to our local FTC and FLL teams, which adhere to the current age limit guidelines given by FiM. I loved FLL when I was in 6th grade. I was bored with it in 7th grade. I had outgrown it in 8th grade and was itching to move up. I genuinely believe, from my own experience and from interacting with many teams and coaches, that elementary FLL and middle school FTC is a fantastic course for many reasons. It is challenging for students, and keeps them engaged for much longer by providing a clear cut progression of programs. When FTC gets 6th graders that have already been through FLL, they benefit from the prior experience. When FRC gets 9th graders who have been through FTC, they become contributing and useful members from Day 1. It's been great for all of our students and I haven't heard any negative feedback from participants or coaches. I think it will be a painful transition. I think there are still a lot of things to be figured out. I think it will be a great testing ground for FIRST as a whole, just like districts were. I trust our FiM leadership to make informed, fair, and wise decisions. |
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