Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

I need your opinion, please.

We are working on an initiative to create a B.S. in Engineering Education.

This degree is the 1st half of a generalized engineering degree, plus the education courses needed to be a teacher.

The degree has an intensive junior level class, similar to MIT 2.007, which is the course that FIRST was designed from.

Restated, students will have a full semester course in product design / development, with the goal of preparing teachers to become effective FIRST teachers / mentors.

The second initiative we are working on is developing the concept of a 'head coach' teacher model, similar to high school football. The high school would have a full-time teacher that spent maybe 1/2 time teaching formal classes, and 1/2 time on robotics and other things, after school. Just like your high school football coach.

Here is my question. How many students that participate in FIRST would elect to do robotics as a career, as a high school teacher, if a) you could get a high quality engineering educator degree, and b) you could work in a 'head-coach' environment where the school system formally supported your work and team ?

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Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Not a student anymore, but I absolutely would. The fact that opportunities to do so are so rare that it seems unreachable is extremely frustrating.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

That sounds like a great idea. It's very similar to what I do now with a math certification.
Have you checked with your state Board of Ed about creating an engineering certification?

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

I am currently still a student (going to be a senior). I myself and several other student leads on my team have expressed a solid interest in a program like this. Most of the coaches or mentors we've seen from other teams are ex-sports coaches or ex-science/math teachers.

The problem many of us face is choosing between education and engineering. As you probably guessed, most of us choose engineering because there aren't many options for combining the two fields. This is definitely something I know we would be interested in.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

I’d do it in a second. Teaching and engineering are my dual passions in life, and I would jump at a chance to combine the two as a career.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

I work for a large university, one of the largest in the state, and we are the largest producers of teachers. We also now have a college of engineering and mechatronics. To answer your question yes, I am very involved with the various state entities.

The intent is to deliver multiple pathways to get into education. The most interesting is a student entering college as a freshman with the intent of becoming an engineering education teacher. It is optimized to create teachers that can do things like FRC and other programs with high performance. Other options include training and certification for existing teachers and existing engineers. I think the best and most committed teachers will be graduates of high school robotics programs.

What I'm asking here and the original intent of this thread is to gauge interest and solicit commentary from the CD community, about becoming a teacher.

Thank you all in for your comments.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Speaking for my high school senior self some years back: 50-50 chance I'd have been interested.

Speaking today: Chances are much higher...

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

This is a great idea. I applaud your efforts.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

What would this degree license the person to teach? How many part time teacher/part time coaches are there in your state?

I guess it boils down to: Is there a need for this? what does this do that your typical CTE teacher can't cover already?

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

I had a chance to talk extensively with Ed at the FRC World Championships 2 months ago. I am absolutely impressed with the vision and efforts he has put in towards Engineering Education. Its only a matter of time before his program, Team 1311 win the CCA.
As an educator with an engineering degree much like David from 696, we are in a field where more and more engineers are becoming educators. I've seen many professionals try to do career changes at our school, even one that had his PhD this past year. They struggled mightily for 3 main reasons.
One, they didnt understand how to work within our State DOE system, a compliance based one where buying a single pencil can seem like walking a mile.
Two, they knew their content, but couldnt effectively translate it to students in the classroom because of a lack of teaching pedagogy.
Three, they needed help on classroom management skills, where the problem is compounded by lack of funding, overcrowded classrooms, and lack of facilities.

Every team needs engineers and educators. How powerful would it be if you had an Engineering Educator?:)

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Here's the biggest problem that we have in our State and I'll assume its the same elsewhere in many parts of the country: Finding good CTE teachers that are qualified.
The CTE pipeline has been dwindling down in recent years in our State. Our Auto program died several years ago and our Woodshop class has a teacher who isnt fully qualified to do the job.
The community colleges now offer CTE Alternative certification programs, but they have a hard time getting people to change careers because of pay. Many tradesmen have no degrees and our State isnt willing to pay them more than an entry level teacher's salary because of it. Who's going to want to take a pay cut to start teaching? If I take Woodshop, I want someone who has experience in the real world to teach the class.

1. Why do we tell our best Math students to become Accountants or Engineers? Shouldnt the best Math student major in education where the brightest teach our future generations?
2. In our very own FRC program, we encourage our students to become engineers and not educators.

I believe that by offering Engineering education, you attract students who are smart enough to become engineers, instead make a career of teaching future generations of students.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Ed, you may want to look into similar programs from other areas. When I was considering my college selections I noted that Central Connecticut State University (CCSU) has a well developed and pretty well know Technology and Engineering Education degree program.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

I'm doing something very similar this fall with Georgia Tech and 1648's high school, where I will be a robotics coach/teaching assistant and be paid with a stipend. I'd definitely be interested in something like this in the future.

I feel like it would be beneficial to have some experience in industry before pursuing an education degree. While I've considered teaching in engineering as a potential career, the experience I get in industry will only build my base of knowledge to teach from. Perhaps this program could be a master's-degree program for the best effect?

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

This is how I feel about it. If you're coming at it from a teachers' college, this makes a lot of sense. You're recruiting people that want to go to a teacher's college into teaching engineering. (Which is good.)

I don't know that you'll pick up many would-be engineers this way, though. Or if you do, I'm afraid they might be disappointed. I'm not sure if this is part of your target audience, but if so, have you considered adding a master's degree program? Not immediately of course (take your time). A 2-year grad degree specifically for transitioning engineers into teacher certification could reach a very different but also good (arguably better, but I won't argue it here) audience. Or even a 5-year dual degree that finishes with a BSE and an teacher certification--that one I might've done myself.

Personally (so that you know this type of person exists): I used my undergrad to become published author in engineering curriculum development, to TA four courses, and to coach an FRC team while earning an honors dual degree in engineering and liberal arts. I'm now working for the university in engineering education development before I start teaching high school science with WorldTeach. This bachelor's is literally at the intersection of my passions and pursuits, and I never would've opted for it. I can't imagine giving up any part of my undergraduate engineering education, much less essentially half of it. I wouldn't be nearly as useful to students or society in the roles I want without those experiences. I intend to become a certified teacher as well, but not at the sacrifice of being an engineer. Whereas if you opened that master's degree program, I'd start looking for apartments in Georgia. (Is this UGA?)

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

*ears prick up out here* Can I second the motion?

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

A) This feels a bit like it's a "pushing on a rope" topic.

B) Don't train people to become FIRST coaches. Train them to become STEM coaches. Those two aren't close to being the same thing. FIRST is good, but FIRST is neither everything STEM, nor proven to be best STEM.

C) When I am able to semi-retire; I look forward to doing more informal or formal teaching. An opportunity to get some high-quality training would be very welcome.

Blake

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Just to get the semantics correct, in general,
...Universities contain Colleges
......Colleges contain Schools
.........Schools contain Departments
............Departments contain the chair and faculty

There are two common models of creating science teachers

model 1) the College of Education teaches the science education courses to the students

model 2) the College of Education teachers educational pedagogy, and the College of Science teaches the teachers the science education courses

We use the 2nd model.

What if an engineering educator degree was created using the College of Education for pedagogy, and the College of Engineering for the engineering and technology courses ?

What if this degree had an intensive product development course, similiar to
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanica...i-spring-2009/
This course gave birth to FIRST, and can be used to train a teacher in the fundamentals of what it take to design, build, and deliver a product in a hurry.


Yes, this would lead to a teaching license. Echoing Glenn's comment, CTE teacher production is in dire straits.

Is this leading to you earning certification as a teacher ?

The OP mentioned BS only but we are actually mapping out several pathways and possibilities.

BS Degree, MS Degree, and certificate.

The thinking for the BS is that much of the upper division courses of an engineering degree isn't necessary for K-12 teaching, and many people that might want to participate in engineering type activities do not want to complete a full engineering degree. They would be better off focusing on principle of engineering and mastering the educational pedagogy, the how to teach it and how students learn. The BS route would best be for a high school student starting as a freshman, or a transfer student in from a 2 year community technical college.

It's a free country. If a candidate wants to get the full engineering degree, then extended training to become a teacher, by all means help yourself.

Requiring teachers to have a full engineering degree where they might have taken courses in stochastic theory, or deform-able bodies, or modulation theory, only slows down and reduces the supply of teachers. You reach a point of diminishing returns.

Still mapping out what MS, Phd and certificate should look like. There are a lot of ways to recruit candidates.

It is my opinion that the vast number of K-12 engineering and technology teachers will not come from engineering schools as pure engineers nor from educator schools as pure educators.

I believe there are a LOT of people that like technology and would be glad to teach pre-engineering and principle of engineer, and technology.

As earlier posters have stated, there isn't a lot of options for a high school graduates that want to go into middle/high school engineering education.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

What Justin said...

Here's a short list from the national organization...
http://www.iteea.org/Resources/institutionalmembers.htm

Programs just like this already exist. I graduated with a BS in Technology/Engineering Education. Obviously each state is slightly different, and might have different names for the certificate, but the framework is already there. Most of the schools listed also have Master's degree programs (MEd) that culminate in a teaching certificate.

It looks like University of Georgia already offers this program, are you working with a different institution? Looks like Savannah State University also offers an undergrad degree.

http://teched.uga.edu/

Googling for your state's specifics would be a good place to start for all the aspiring teachers in this thread.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

This thread caught my attention with the OP's emphasis on integrated hand-on education. Without calling out any school specifically, I've been searching for an MS that really emphasizes transitioning practical skill sets and integrating more 'head coach' learning throughout the 1-2 years. That would push it up my list very quickly, though I know there are some very, very good MEds out there (I've been looking at JHU). The desire for this kind of alternative MEd may be a personal bias, as I've had some STEM teachers that really lacked in integration despite STEM BSs and education MSs.


As to the already existent ability to add teacher education on top of an engineering BS, yes, of course we can. (It's a free country, and I'm seriously examining it.) But considering the point of this is to up the number of engineering teachers, I'd think the push would be less about what's possible and more about what's actively advertised as a potential audience/degree option.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

This does sound very interesting. It would be cool to get paid to do what I love to do anyways. Make them evening classes and I'd probably sign up.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Technically the stipend is for a pre-teaching internship, but I was recommended by the head mentor of 1648 to the pre-teaching program director. I won't be getting a certification, but It will appear on my transcript and resume.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Prior to getting into the FIRST Robotics program back in 1999, we were introduced to it primarily because we were successful in racing electric cars (1995-2009). As I clicked on the link, I cant help but remember racing against a few Connecticut schools....i.e. Farmington HS? in Louden, NH 7-8 years ago.

I need to dig up old pictures. For awhile, we did both programs and decided to end our EV program once we got into VEX Robotics.

Glenn

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Now that summer is over and school is back in session, I'm going to bump this thread.

Please comment if you or someone you know might be interested in becoming an educator for engineering and technology education, with an emphasis on product development.

The fundamental question to FIRST students is "after graduating high school, would you be interested in going to a university and earning a four year STEM educator degree with a focus on Engineering Education" ????

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Personally, I'd be more interested in an after-hours/online certificate program.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

If someone has a degree and experience then there is a market out there for that, without question. That would be addressed with a MAT, Masters of Arts in Teaching, or some other initial certification pathway.

I working to justify creating a BS degree program. It closes a gap, by allowing STEM oriented high school students to take a direct engineering / education route to a BS and the classroom. It falls well short of an ABET accredited engineering degree.

See the chart here

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Um... actually, I do that for a living.

Teach teachers to teach technology education, that is. After 13 years of teaching high school 'shop' I'm teaching in the same program I graduated from 20 years ago... and we've been doing it in BC for the past fifty years.

To be fair, the program isn't specifically "engineering". We cover Auto Mechanics, Woodwork, Metalwork, Drafting, Electronics, and Material Science. Students spend about 30 hours each week for four semesters learning "hands on" in a shop environment. (Okay, some of my lectures aren't always as 'hands on' as I'd like.)

Students are responsible for getting their "first year" university credits before enrolling in the program, spend two years with us at BCIT in the shops, and then spend 12 months at UBC to complete their B.Ed degree. It is a five year B.Ed degree that qualifies them to teach in BC, and by extension most other provinces in Canada (and likely states in the USA, although I haven't followed that through in detail as we don't currently graduate enough students to meet domestic demand, let alone worrying about work permits and the like) I do know, however, that some of our grads have had a good time finding work in Australia....

We have a great group of students with backgrounds in the trades, technologies, and even the occasional engineer entering the program.

It is kind of a unique program, but our graduates make up 100% of the current and past FRC team lead mentors from BC (albeit a small sample set) and about 80% of VEX teachers in BC.

Not bad for only taking 22 students a year!

So glad to hear that other people are looking at the same thing!

Jason

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

I'm going to look at this from a purely economic POV for a moment: Is there enough demand for a course like this? How many new "shop" teachers does Georgia need every year? Does it make economic sense for a school to create a new degree path?

I think someone said, if there was enough demand there would be a MAT path for this certification. That would lead me to ask why isn't there one already? It is possible the demand just isn't there? I think you are driving this from the wrong end of the pipe. Increase demand, then work of supply.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Yes I am having to create an economic ROI analysis or something to that effect.

There is a large demand. People have not been able to articulate what it should look like until recently.

The degree isn't shop class, but an "integrative stem" teaching degree. Engineering is a highly stem integrated discipline.

Front page article in this weeks NSTA journal was about this very topic.

The problem schools are having is there are a lot of courses on the books that can't be taught, so they don't start the class, and in turn there is no teacher demand. Chicken & Egg.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Talk to a typical administrator and talk about integrative STEM and I bet most of them will reply, "oh, you mean shop/CTE right?"

But I agree there needs to be a better job of training folks to teach engineering type skills. I have seen some really bad engineering classes.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

I pray that most FRC teams are gearing their teams for students interested in 'shop classes'.

The skills gap in the U.S. is getting out of hand. And for teams to be overlooking these students is a disservice to the respective teams and the students that they could reach.

And as for 'Shop teacher' - there is a MASSIVE SHORTAGE!

In Minnesota alone, we had 40 openings for Tech Ed/Engineering Ed in 2015 - and St. Cloud State University (the only school in MN offering this degree) graduated a total of two.

For any student involved in FRC that wants to continue in this field and has a desire to inspire, this is a great career!

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

[quote=Chief Hedgehog;1498405]And as for 'Shop teacher' - there is a MASSIVE SHORTAGE! /QUOTE]

totally agree - massive shortage, huge national problem. http://www.reshorenow.org/

free advice - don't call them shop teachers,,,, call them something like 'manufacturing technologist' teachers. or something like that. there is enormous support and demand for that.


Is there anyway I can get some supporting documentation for that ? Or some sort of citation ?

Thanks,
-eb

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

I love this thread!

I feel the hard issue is going to be this. Salary.

I came to education in 2005 from industry where I was a cutting tool designer/manufacturer for over 15 years. When the auto industry tanked here in Michigan, jobs were scarce and I was lucky to find one in Education; actually it found me.

I had to go back to school for 83 credit hours and take a huge pay cut to be in education. I mean a pay cut of over half of that in industry, plus pay for 83 credit hours to get my certification.

Ten years later, I am happy where I am at. I am 48, and enjoy my summers off. I pick up side work to cover the still lower than industry salary. No problems. But if I was a much younger lad and entering in to education, I would have to think very hard as I could get a much better compensation if I went to industry instead.

In plain terms, then shortage is this. Good, qualified, knowledgeable people can earn much more in industry than over education. Unless you are willing to take the sacrifice, industry is the better choice if you are raising a family.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Mentoring through FIRST is what brought me in to teaching as career. I am a Technology Ed teacher who teaches Electronics and Robotics courses at my high school. My inner FIRST student has a lot of fun with my job!

There are colleges and universities who offer Tech Ed, Pre-engineering, and other STEM related education degrees but it really seems to depend on what the state needs for certification to fully run a program. Liability is a big part technology and engineering education because of the use of powered equipment and student safety, this is normally set by the state and/or local school board. I've also noticed that the states with schools that offer technology, engineering, and industrial arts teacher degrees tend to also see the importance of these areas of study over other states. They usually have state standards to support the need, NJ has 8.2.

The hardest part is recruitment, no doubt. Teaching is a calling for many, but some don't realize it right away.

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Exactly. This is same issue we have in the sciences. I think about it constantly. I could get a "normal" job and greatly increase me salary. Oh, to take a week off whenever I want to!

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

[quote=ebarker;1498437]I wish I could. However, I may be able to do you even better. I can give you the direct contact to Saint Cloud State University's program director for the Technology/Enginneering Education program. PM me and I will send you his contact info.

Next Spring (starting in March) just google 'edpost' or go to
http://www1.stcloudstate.edu/joblist...st/default.asp
and you will see all of the positions available. It is absolutely ridiculous how many will be there.

If you want to make a solid living and coach an FRC team, Minnesota is the place to be!

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

[quote=ebarker;1498437]And as for 'Shop Teachers' - only my father-in-law calls me that when he wants to win an argument. And then I point to all the crap I have fixed for him and I win...

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

I have to comment on the "don't call them shop teachers" suggestion... I don't know what the history of teaching 'shop' is in every jurisdiction, but in BC I'm proud to be known as a shop teacher. In fact, I'm a second-generation shop teacher and I consider it a compliment to be grouped in with some of the most progressive, entrepreneurial, forward-thinking educators in the province.

Do we teach engineering, robotics, animation, 3D printing and such in shop classes? Yep. Shop teachers have been on the cutting edge of technology in BC from transistors, through computers, CAD, CNC... you name it and if it is a cool, new technology that involves hands-on learning you'll find it in the shop.

Officially, of course, we've never been called "shop teachers". It was "manual training", then "industrial education" and now "technology education"... put whatever buzzwords you want on the paperwork. Administrators and funding agencies are suckers for that stuff. But if someone is teaching real-world skills in a hands-on way in a shop, then they are teaching shop. And should be darn proud of it, too.

Jason

* Alternative definition... if there is a chance that someone is going to lose a finger if they don't follow instructions and use their brain, well, that's another sign that you might be teaching shop, too. ::safety::

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

I don't disagree at all. All I was trying to get to is addressing the funding agency people issues. I didn't do a good job of that.


Well there you go. You are in an advanced place, we are still in in the past here, so we have to go full circle here, we still have to "to go to the future" to "get back to the past". hmmm.... sounds like a movie. where's my flux capacitor ?

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

Hi Ed--

A number of things come up with this:

Engineers are not necessarily what you need; someone well-versed in the trades and business who can teach basic skills, building a foundation of muscle-memory with materials and mechanisms and tools and equipment. Then this person can point the way to higher education in it, or in related fields.

Who wants to come out of industry, take a forty or fifty percent discount in pay, go after the teaching credential, and then shuffle through all the Common Core and NGSS BS we're made to do? There's this vision out there on the part of school site administrators to get some old retired engineers to come into the school system and teach these classes. Really? Put up with school site and school district politics, fight for funding, fight for a legitimate place on the schedule, fight for your class description to get legitimized by the state? Write the curriculum for your state, mostly from scratch?

Wrote a book on this whole issue: here's a free one to anyone who can see this message: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/448735 On checkout, put in this code to download it for free in any format: MF57X

See two chapters specifically: The Shop Teacher, and Accomplishment, about how FRC fills the skills gap for young people, and why so many business step up to fund it and give scholarships, and so many more volunteer to make it all work.

A blessing on your efforts!

Re: Engineering "Educator" Degree Programs
 

YHUP !!

That is a battle I've fought but I think we have than under control.

I think it was in 2010 the Office of Science & Technology Policy, The White House released a length document on education, wherein a group of ivory towered academics and esteemed business persons came up with the idea of "highly qualified", meaning you take a full engineer, and ask them to go to school for teaching credentials, take the pay cut, and voila, problem solved...... NOT That set off a lot of people marching in the wrong direction.

What is needed is the right balance of a lot of skills, and knowledge........ and so on..... And yes, this isn't an 'online' degree. I predict you will see a lot of people offering online 'STEM' certifications that are going to be useless.... but I digress.

Thank you for the book, I'll go read it now.

Ed