Team 1717 retires
 

I just read about it here: https://www.edhat.com/site/tidbit.cfm?nid=154929

It still sounds like they have an amazing program, but I'll miss watching their robots in action.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Now where am I going to point to as the "coolest drivetrain in FRC" when discussing drivetrains with my students?

Also might be awkward having people read "The New Cool", and then telling them the team in the book no longer exists.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Well, that's a bummer.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

???
I think I'd need to see some more about this Mechatronics project to fully understand it. From what little they show in that article I can't believe it is a replacement for FRC, considering how they ran their team so well.

Looks more like STEAM education that STEM... with more of an emphasis on the A, and less on the E.

Wonder how this will affect their enrollment?

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Try explaining to new kids to FIRST that CD was an actual FIRST team that got put out to pasture because their school closed. Sometimes FIRST teams have their fates decided by things outside of their control.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

The answer to your question is in a bulleted list in the article:

Summed up, this will provide more access for students to work on what they want to work on for the entire year. No matter how well-organized your team is, it's hard to let every student work on every facet of the team and get something meaningful out of it.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

We just tell our kids that its called Chief Delphi to call upon the ancient delphi's power for wisdom and future telling :yikes:

But this is a serious bummer that such a great team will no longer be competing.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I think 2451 has a decent shot at that title.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Note the emphasis on "every student". I've read elsewhere that they've actually had increasing enrollment and that this is the solution; it makes sense. It's hard to have 20+ students equally involved in the engineering aspects of FIRST.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

At the end of build season one of the robots I most wanted to see at the end of the year was 1717's. They always brought cool and slick solutions to the challenges that were just as evasive and effective on the field.

There is certainly something to said about the "FRC experience" that I believe new students will be missing out of. Communications skills, working as a team, time constraints and friendly competition are something I think all students can benefit from.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Pontiac Central and Pontiac Northern consolidated into a single high school back in 2009-2010 I believe. Their two teams (FRC47: Chief Delphi from Central and FRC65: The Huskie Brigade from Northern) elected to combine to form the current FRC51. 51 inherited everything from the past two teams, including Hall of Fame status from 47's 1997 National* Chairman's Award.


*Yes Gregor, it was nationals back then. :P

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

1717 had one of the most impressive FRC programs I've ever seen. The knowledge base that their students possessed was made even more impressive by the short amount of time each of them participated in the program. Their 2012 robot was, in my opinion, one of the all time great robots in FRC. Their presence will definitely be missed.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Man....I JUST started re-reading The New Cool yesterday. I wonder if any of the students would be willing to create an after-school team.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I too looked forward to seeing the robots 1717 would put out every year. Their robots were unique and beautiful works of engineering.

It's very tough to have every student be involved in every facet of engineering an FRC robot, especially with a larger team. I'd imagine doing a Mechatronics project similar to some Capstone design classes in college will get students more involved in their projects.

Another factor to consider is college admission. The students of DPEA are most likely trying to get into the most elite higher education institutions. Not that this is a bad thing, but participating in FRC has become more common on the application. Maybe working on projects like these will allow these students' applications to stand out more...

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

We are all going to miss 1717's presence on the field, but hopefully their legacy still lives on. This is the team that should have made Einstein year after year, but never got lucky enough. This is the team that has made on of the most innovative swerve drives in FRC, and one of the best vision tracking systems as well.

Our team was lucky enough to be selected by 1717 for the Curie division eliminations in 2013, and even though the alliance lost in the quarter finals, it was a great opportunity for us to work along side one of the highest quality FRC programs in the world.

Thank you for everything you have given us, Dos Pueblos. I wish you all the best of luck with your new program.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

This makes total sense if you read the article. FRC is a great program, but isn't scalable in the ways it would need to be to provide a large number of students with a comprehensive capstone.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

This is sad news for the FIRST community, but I'm glad to see that the school is moving on to a program with a lot of the same goals.

I remember watching the championship streams back in 2012 and I was always impressed with 1717's accuracy. They were a huge inspiration when it came to controls and consistency.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

+1
This was the robot that made me a major 1717 fan. That robot was one of the best and fastest bridge balancers in Newton...but you seldom saw it balance, because even in the few seconds that took they could rack up more basket points by flawlessly hitting the top hoop from anywhere on the field.

Their robot was only surpassed by the friendly and professional nature of their student members. Cooperating during matches with 1717 at the 2012 Championship was one of the things that made our first and (thus far) only trip to Championship memorable.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Dang...

For so many years competing with and against 1717.. It will be hard to imagine going to regional events without them. I remember their rookie year... seeing this amazing team coming out of nowhere to get rookie inspiration in 2006. Then we teamed with them in 2007 and became regional finalists. We knew there was something great with this team... and we were right!!! From then on every year either we(294) ended up teaming with them or playing against them in the regional eliminations.. (usually in the finals).

What a great team. I will miss the intensity and the amazing students they brought year in and year out. The LA area will definitely miss you 1717...

First dozer and now this. What is the world coming to?

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

As tragic as this is for the FIRST Community, the Mechatronics project does sound very interesting, as well as being an enriching experience for the students. Yes, competition and large-scale teamwork are two selling points of FIRST that DPEA students will be missing out on, but that aside, it's an interesting opportunity for them.

Cheers to 1717, for building some robots in their FRC run that inspired many of us to "do better", and for giving their students some amazing opportunities to learn.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I am truly saddened to here of such a great team being closed down. While mechatronics is great and i am sure student will have an amazing experience with it, there is just something that (IMHO) FRC provides that no assembly project can mimic.

The thing that really bums me out about this news is they were a team that I looked up to. After reading "The New Cool" I got really excited and they became a sort of beacon of how FRC and FIRST could be incorporated into public education. Hopefully their new program goes well.

I also hope that they can find a way to come back in some facet, like an after school team.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

1717 was one of those teams you looked to when you needed an example of things done right. A great role model. They will be missed.

Also, their drive-train was the swerve gold standard.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

DPEA will still be one of the top programs in the country even without FRC. In previous years, their students only participated in FRC during their senior year. What did all those students do from freshmen to junior levels that made them so ready for FRC ? DPEA has decided to go for a better capstone project for every student.

Whatever direction they go everyone should take note and look at how they are trying to improve each of their students.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Does anyone know if they're planning on carrying on as an extracurricular?

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Thank you for the years of inspiration, 1717. It sounds like the new direction you are headed will be better for your students in the long run.

-Nick

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

**Disclosure: the thoughts and ideas expressed below do not in any way reflect that of Team 1717 or those involved with the team and this decision.**

That being said, I am very sad about this announcement. I personally think it's the wrong decision but recognize the place it's coming from. I think the fundamental nature of going down the path of Mechatronics over FRC is that of Education vs. Inspiration.

It says it right in the name: For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology. FIRST is about inspiring people to get into STEM. It has done the best job of gamifying STEM that the world has ever seen. It's fun and exciting and even allows for spectators to get into it. Dean has said it himself many times, that he can't wait for the day when our scientists and engineers are as celebrated as our professional athletes. FIRST does a great job to make that come alive.

What FIRST isn't, however, is fully focused on education. The teams who come up with the best robot and have the best drivers are celebrated. The kids and mentors are all driven (to crazy/amazing extents) by this one specific goal. To design/build/drive the best robot, you need to specialize in tasks and divide up the labor. You set up various sub-teams and pin-point one specific aspect of the robot to perfect. You work day and night to make sure that, come Gameday, you win. It's also a very short build-season and has required the DPEA to set up a structure where you have 3.5 years of "practice" and 4 months of the "real thing." I'm not too familiar with Mechatronics but from what I gather... the students are able to work on a much more comprehensive set of tasks and challenges. The coders get to machine. The machiners get to design. The designers get to code. Without having this super high-intensity challenge, it does allow for students to get a much more well-rounded STE(A)M education.

Now why do I think this is the wrong path to go down? Because I don't actually think it should be about the education over inspiration. Team 1717 has earned such an impressive local (and FIRST-wide) reputation of engineering excellence, compassion, teamwork and competitiveness, that they themselves become the inspiration for other teams in the community. 1717 has mandated for as long as it could, that the program would be 50/50 men & women. 1717 goes to all the local junior highs to give demos and presentations and recruit applicants of hundreds of 13 year-olds who now want to do engineering for high school. 1717 helped inspire a book that further encouraged people to go into engineering.

By focusing on education, the DPEA might end up with the most well-rounded, qualified, high school graduates in the country, but the influence of 1717 went well beyond that. The DPEA now will be much more insular. It won't have a broader community to connect with and be inspired by themselves. FRC also goes well beyond high school. I now have coworkers who I can talk to about FIRST. I'm 8 years out of the program and still follow the FRC competition closely. In my opinion, this intangible inspiration has been discounted in making this decision and will decrease the overall lasting impact that this program has given myself, my peers, and the community at large.

Hopefully time will prove me wrong and the DPEA continues to thrive and grow. I have full faith in the leadership of the program and so far they seem to have gotten things right. 1717 will be missed.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I'll tell them the school built its FIRST team into a role model for technical and competitive excellence. Twenty design awards and ten blue banners in ten seasons (sorry if I missed some) don't tell their whole story, which is really about building an engineering academy, from the foundation up.

I don't see a tragedy. Maybe some tears are justified, like those shed at commencement, not at a funeral. I've known quite a few individual FIRST alumni who now do really cool things in science and technology through other means. DPEA is now a distinguished corporate alumnus of FIRST.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

My thoughts as well.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

1717 will definitely be missed, but as an educator I salute them taking the path they see as best for their students.

We have an Engineering Academy in Dublin, though younger than theirs. Our FRC program, which the EA students participate in, is an extra curricular activity. We are actually in the process of more integration of the Engineering Academy and the FRC program.

The FRC program is the best recruiting tool we have for the Academy and for our other engineering and programming classes. The extra-curricular nature of the program helps because it is students from all three district high schools, as are all of our academies. Our district has a number of such Academy programs, engineering, biomedical sciences, teaching, energy and the environment, business and young professionals that serve all of the schools. The extra-curricular competitive aspect of FRC is one of the things that heightens the inspirational effect of FRC.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I will be sad to see their engineering excellence leave FRC.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Heck, I thought they already had it. :D It's really sad to see 1717 go. They're an amazing team who I've always felt was extremely underrated, and a team I point new members to as an example of a model FRC program. They will be missed.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I'll definitely be missing 1717. D'Penguineers inspired a lot of people, myself included.

I remember attending Champs for the first time in 2012, and waiting for the practice field. We were right behind 1717 in queue, which meant we got to watch them practice. I'm pretty sure they made somewhere around a hundred shots in a row from a variety of positions-- meanwhile, my team was struggling to stay about 75% in autonomous. Watching that robot more than anything at Champs that year opened my eyes to what an FRC robot could be.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I was privileged enough to be my team's human player at Champs in 2012, on Newton, and to play against 1717 during quals. All I can remember is the complete and utter awe at 1717's robot that year. I've had the good fortune to see a lot of great robots in person, including 254, 118, 341, 125, 359, 1114, 67, 1640, 225, and so many others that I cannot even count, and yet seeing 1717's swerve drive that year stands out as one of the most "how-are-we-ever-gonna-top-that inspiring" moments in my FIRST career. 1717, you will be missed, thank you for your many years of reminding us that more is always possible.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

For every great program, there is that "one" person or group that creates that vision to excel for others to emulate. That person is Amir Abo-Shaeer. We've crossed paths many times in the past and he is such a positive role model to his students and others around him.
While sad that we wont see 1717 in FRC in the near future, his program and dream lives on inspiring both current and future students. The community of Santa Barbara is so fortunate that he decided to become an educator years ago.

-Glenn

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

1717 is one of the teams whom I pointed out to my teammates as one of the best in FIRST. (IMO) They have the best designed and manufactured swerve in FRC, and performed incredible tasks every year with a rookie team. They shall be severely missed. :( I only hope that they can come back as an extracurricular activity.

If not perhaps they can post their CAD models from over the years? ;) One can only hope, and I'm sure many here would appreciate it...

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Although I understand why they chose to find another capstone, I am still sad to hear of this. I've seen 1717 only once in person, at champs this year, and they were both amazing to watch on the field and really friendly when we stopped by their pit, answering many questions about their swerve drive.

When I've explained drivetrains to rookies, I always used videos of 1717, and I will continue to do so. They were amazed by "the robot that can move sideways," and I always was too, even after watching them dozens of times. We'll miss you 1717, and we won't forget you.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I can understand how this can happen on a "school" based team that delivers a program that attracts more and more students each year. This upcoming year, I am transitioning my team to a purely extra-curricular team as more and more students enroll in the engineering technology pathway courses at our school. Ross is correct, FIRST doesn't scale well within a traditional school that has curricular objectives in which every student needs to meet.

But I don't understand why they can't keep their team as an extra-curricular activity? That seems quite odd and at some point someone had to decide not to pursue this alternative... why?

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

A video of their match in Rebound Rumble vs. the Robonauts.
They are featured briefly at 0:40, shooting into the goal.
It ended in a tie. 71-71

I rode back with them on the train to the airport when I learned that the team was all seniors and that this was their "capstone" project.

Gonna miss D'Penguineers and their unique creations.

I wish Dos Pueblos well in their new endeavors, but I agree with previous posts about the team project aspect that may be lost.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Good questions.
I can only assume due to constraints (budget, focus, direction of the learning center). I would guess the fact that only seniors were doing it is a big reason to let it go.
I'm not sure I would do FRC either if I only had 1 year for each participating student.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Maybe they're trying to preserve the legacy of 1717 as it was. Maybe a new team will form eventually with a new team #.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

For us 1717 served as the epitome of an inspirational team.

2012, (their robot was arguably a best of all time) they were across the aisle from us on Newton. We were not very good there - they were great - we drooled over their swerve. A highlight for us was on the practice field where by chance we were with them and 118, we practiced and achieved a triple balance - who else can say they triple balanced with such great teams?
As I read the New Cool and learned about other teams, we learn that this excellence comes from great processes.

On the bus ride home we decided to develop a swerve, we have used it the past couple years and it has provided great learning opportunity for the team, and a lot of fun. Great teams provide inspiration, Thanks d'Penguineers.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Ding! I think we have a winner. I very much believe this. To grow his program, Amir has always been obsessed with DPEA's public image. I suspect he won't ever risk that legacy in other's hands.

And, unfortunately I doubt the school will support a new FRC team, even as extra-curricular. I expect every bit of FRC infrastructure and engineering support (professional and volunteer) will be re-purposed into mechatronics (which looks to be a good program - I'm not knocking IT)

We will learn more tomorrow night at a school meeting.

Who am I? An unhappy parent of a current DPEA student.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

After hearing this news, I am even more glad I had the opportunity to meet so many of them at this year's competition. They are such a wonderful group of people. I fully respect their decision, and I think we've seen only the beginning of great things to come out of Dos Pueblos. I hope they continue to share their successes and progress with the FIRST community in the upcoming years.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

An inspirational team to the local and global community.

I truly hope they come back as an extracurricular. IMO, FRC or FTC would be a great program for the freshman-juniors in the school leading up to the new capstone.

I wish the mentors, parents, and students of 1717 all the best.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I missed him at Champs this year, one of the 1717 mentors said he was involved with another project at the Academy. I guess that was it....

The two pictures I have of the team from their first regional...AZ 2006. We were also new, and next to them in the pits. Their robot was slightly over weight.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

With the move to the mechatronics capstone, there's no reason that constraint had to stay.

It's unfortunate 1717 won't exist anymore, but maybe in the future they will form an extracurricular team.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I agree wholeheartedly with this - keep Team 1717 as an extracurricular and expand it to the lower grades. However, this is not my decision to make and I respect the school board's choice. I'll never forget the team with the coolest uniforms and the most beautiful swerve drive I've ever seen. D'Penguineers have truly left behind a legacy of inspiration.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

My goodness, YES!

FIRST is NOT a school program. It is a STEM program. Schools often are the organizations that choose to form a team; but being a school entity is 100% not the only way a team can be organized.

If any of the students and parents from the 1717 community (or any other community)want to form a team they can. Within the limits of good taste, graciousness, and trademark law, they can call themselves anything they want. They can petition FIRST for the privilege of using the 1717 team number. They can recruit sponsors. They can find a meeting/work location. They can ...

Or not - they get to decide.

When more STEM teams exist outside schools than in them, that will be one indication that a true cultural change has occurred.

Know what I mean?

Blake

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Spotlighted. Extremely well put, gblake.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

This is really sad and unfortunate. Back in 2008, when I was a freshman on Galileo, 1717 was the first non Philly/Finger Lakes team I saw in FIRST. I was blown away the first time I saw one of their machines and I have been every year since.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

While I can understand the thinking behind the decision to move to Mechatronics rather than FRC, it's a huge loss for the FIRST community. Hopefully they can stick around in an extracurricular format, but if not, they'll be missed.

Congrats on an amazing 10 years, 1717.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I've always been a fan of 1717. They and their robots will be missed. Best wishes for the new program!

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Disclaimer: The following opinion is purely my own and does not represent Team 1717 or the DPEA.

As a freshly graduated member of Team 1717, I respect the new Mechatronics project, but I personally do not feel that it adequately replaces all the aspects of FRC that attracted me in the first place. While the Mechatronics project continues teaching the broad spectrum of STEAM topics much like the 3 preceding years of DPEA classes, Robotics provided the freedom to pick my favorite subject (CAD) and specialize in it, as well as a longstanding team history and diverse global community to inspire me.

As a capstone project, FRC's rigorous and stressful build season generated a team bonding experience like no other. Together we watched the release of the game video. Together we brainstormed and prototyped mechanisms. Together we spent long nights iterating and reiterating designs to perfection. Participating in Team 1717 developed my design and CAD skills exponentially, but more than that, I gained a true passion for mechanical engineering and the inspiration to drive myself forwards. The imposing time challenges, the myriad of supportive and technical chief delphi threads, and seeing other teams at regionals and St. Louis all contributed to my inspiration.

Robotics bequeathed upon me a wealth of knowledge and a drive to continue facing down obstacles in my future. While I can understand that Mechatronics may produce better rounded graduates, by consigning each senior to more standardized work and slotting it into the regular school day, inspirational value is lost.

I am very upset by the decision to cut Team 1717. Robotics is the most influential activity that I have ever participated in, and its surprise cancellation came as a nasty shock. I've lost the chance to mentor 1717 during my breaks, many rising seniors have lost a dream, and Dos Pueblos has lost a jewel of inspiration.

I hope Mechatronics is able to maintain the legacy of 1717 in future success.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZHaTGiakZM


This video encapsulates what I will remember about 1717. This robot danced across the field, graceful as any human dancer. Its beauty captured my imagination, and I'm sure many others'. This team is legendary, and will be missed--thanks for all the inspiration.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Really unfortunate. 1717 is a team that inspires me every year and a great FIRST team. Reading through this thread made me love this team even more. I hope that the school district realizes that by retiring this team, they aren't only uninspiring the kids on the team, but many in the FIRST community. Really going to miss this team and really hope that they come back as mentors or another team to keep inspiring the people of FIRST.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

As a mentor who has worked in a school system for many years, I'm not sure its the school district that is necessarily retiring the team vs. the mentors (director) deciding not to participate in FIRST anymore.
Every great program starts with "volunteering" a whole lot more than what they get back in terms of compensation. The rewards are usually to help inspire students. If I saw a team who decided to finally give up FRC because they want to move in a different direction or possibly not be able to give up their precious time anymore, I'd respect that.
While it may be disappointing to many in the FIRST community, it seems as their alternative is a great capstone course for their learning center. I wish them nothing but the best and hope that the FRC program in Santa Barbara can continue in some alternative form.
On a personal note, if part of the decision is to protect the legacy of 1717 because of new leadership, I would totally understand and respect that as well.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Brian, you don't need to just mentor 1717--we'll take you if you're in Davis! Or where do you live? We can connect you with another team.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

This news has caused me to do some serious thinking about the direction of our program. I was one of three teachers who founded 1014 back in 2003, but the other two had to drop out after the first year. (Though one of them graciously came back to help chaperone our 2004 and 2005 regional and championship trips.) It took a lot of work. The team might have folded in the third or fourth year if my athletic director had not volunteered to cover some of the meeting for me, giving me back a little bit of time with my family. I was also lucky to have some really good Ohio State engineering students to help mentor. As the team grew (from not quite 20 students to now consistently in the 60s or 70s) we also picked up more mentor support. For the last eight years I have had at least one (and now two) other teachers to help.

Through all of that, one of the things I have been most concerned about is keeping the team from dying when I step back. I don't want the program to be about me. I don't want it to be "my program." I want it to be the team that the school (or in our case the school district, since all three high schools share a team) has. I want it to be just like the football team or the band. When the teacher leading it resigns they get someone else to do the job. Thanks to the painstaking efforts of one of our school board members there is now a small stipend which the teachers split. It is not a lot of money, but the fact that there is a stipend is important because it means that when I resign there will be a position to fill.

I am one of the founders of the Central Ohio Robotics Initiative, which is a group of local business leaders and educators pushing to expand the reach of FIRST so that every kid has an opportunity to participate. My personal goal is to win an Ohio Capital Conference (our athletic conference) title in Robotics before I retire. We have 7 teams at schools in the conference so far (actually representing 14 of the 32 high schools) so I don't think it is out of reach. I want this because that would mean that FRC has become something that every (or at least almost every) school does. FRC competition is relatively expensive, but when you compare its cost to other sports it is actually pretty typical. And it is the most transformative activity I have ever done. Just to be clear, I also coach cross country and track & field, and I am a big believer in the importance of sports teams, music programs, theater programs and all kinds of other extra and co-curricular activities. I am NOT saying FRC is better, just that I want to get to a point where having a team becomes the norm.

So in my rambling way, I am saying that this discussion is making me think about the future. I want to insure that the program survives when I am no longer running it. In my career I have taken over teaching and coaching for some long time, highly successful (and locally legendary) teachers and coaches. Each time they gave me the advice to lead the program the way I think it should go. And not to worry if I think changes are needed. I want to make sure that when I pass the torch team 1014 won't miss a beat.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

And this is why FIRST as a national organization needs to integrate themselves with education rather than separate themselves from it.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Or, on the other hand, it might be why less expensive (and I'm not necessarily talking about cash) STEM programs need to diffuse through communities independently of the schools.

I don't know that schools can pull the rest of the world the way a locomotive pulls a train; but I am confident that a community can support a school, and can make STEM programs into community programs that don't depend so strongly on any single handful of participants.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

If FIRST wishes to influence more students, I feel like being integrated with schools would be able to reach more students. I haven't really talked in depth on this matter to a key figure in a community-based STEM program, but working with schools seems to get more students involved.

At the same time, community-based programs seem to be stronger and more sustainable, but that's an argument for another day...

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I'm thinking about the difference between a community sports league, that engages many dozens of students and families, and a school sports team that directly engages only one group of students. FLL/VIQ and VRC/FTC are great for forming leagues.

I'm not thinking about the difference between one single FRC team and another single FRC team.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Though a FIRST team's primary objectives can differ from an organization with which they are heavily integrated, it seems to me that the FIRST teams who have fully embraced the inspiration aspect tend to be more successful than the ones who focus mostly on the education. That's not to say that a full integration of an education system and FIRST couldn't be mutually beneficial, but it's not a perfect marriage either. The focus on inspiration and recognition gives FIRST a slightly different mission from what education systems typically strive to achieve.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

While d'Penguineers may not exist as a practicing team, their influence lives on. Both our founder (Gixxy) and our head coach (Hobson) were strongly influenced by The New Cool. I did not read TNC untill late 2014, well after I was drinking the FRC kool-aid. I intentionally did not do pre-research. Well into the book, I yelled out something like "Oh, my sweet Lord, it's Lunacy!" To think that the seminal work on the FRC experience is about the least favorite game of all time, being played by a team that no longer exists, is either the height of insanity or a master stroke of inspiration. I'm praying for #2.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

FYI... from Noozhawk:
Students Protest End of D’Penguineers Robotics Team at Dos Pueblos Engineering Academy

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Interesting article. Seems like no students were involved in the decision to cut 1717. I wonder if parents were consulted, or if this was entirely the DPEA directors and trustees?

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

IMO,
the decision to continue or end a program should not be directly decided by students/parents.
Instead, there is a process in which they could provide input via School Community Council (SCM as it is called in Hawaii). Not sure what the approach is for California, but I am sure there is something somewhat similar setup?

Communication however is VERY important.

As stated in the article, many students and their parents have steered their educational choices and goals around the FIRST program in SB. Not surprised at all since it is a world class program.

Hopefully they find a happy medium and solution.
Very curious about why the decision was made. Lack of resources? Volunteer time?

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I was on this team a few years back. I had and still kind of have many problems with the team itself, but I'm still pretty pissed off that they just...took it away.

As for why? I don't know. I do know that Shaeer is REALLY into the mechatronics project, but...I don't know any of the details. I don't really talk to people on the team much anymore.

Many of the kids are only here because of the robotics capstone project. Now, there is no other FRC team anywhere around the clump of nearby cities, not even as far as Carp, and definitely not one this well known and respected.

From what I'm hearing from this past Mechatronics graduates, the program hasn't really gotten rave reviews, which is not super surprising considering this is a very new program. I only hope that they can improve it with the increase of time and resources alloted to it, and that the students aren't too afraid to speak up on what can be improved upon.

I feel so bad for the upcoming seniors, though. They had absolutely no warning that this was coming and my heart goes out to them.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

As an educator I am always for getting students the best opportunity available. I also understand the financial constraints placed upon schools year in and out. When I read the OP, I was interested in the Mechatronics project and it looks like an outstanding offering.

However, as an educator, I also understand the politics of decisions - and most decisions made in a 'closed loop system' -i.e. opinions and decisions made without substantive input from all sides - typically favor those making the decisions.

After reading the noozhawk article, I am fearing that this was done without greater input by the community and students.

It will be sad to see the end of D’Penguineers. They have been a very influential program and my hope is that they can find their way back into FRC existence.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

It's good to see the Student Body at least wanting to keep the team. Regardless of what happens, I'll always remember this team due to their awesome bots and character... but it would be nice if they stayed. :) Never let it die. #Keep1717

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

There is a balance that can maintain both the school and community. In Minnesota we have ample supply of both community teams and school sponsored teams; our team (FRC 4607) has struck such a balance. The team is 'hosted' by the school, but the community funds the team. I am certain that we are not the first to arrive at this model - but it has worked wonders for us...

What seemed to be a big offset for us when we started (the school not providing any funding at all) actually became our ace in the hole. We have gained many sponsors over our nearly four year history - and most are at the $250-500 level. Because of this, our community outreach squad has evolved into our main project on our team - how do we get more people involved?

We have also worked with two rookie teams - the first (Team A) taking the easy money from the school and the second (Team B) going the same path that we have gone. There is no doubt which team is the stronger and has the propensity to survive the tough seasons. Team A has exactly 4 sponsors whereas Team B is still hard at work gaining new sponsors and fundraising their hearts out. After one season, Team B boasts nine sponsors - and many I wish were sponsors of my own team as these sponsors are large corporations in MN.

We are now working with three other districts to start their own teams. We are using Team B's success (and our own) to champion this hybrid of funding/hosting.

But each team/school/community is different - and our sample size is small.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

After reading the article, I feel even more bummed that 1717 is leaving the FRC and FIRST community. My question is, what can the existing FIRST community do to continue to provide FRC to students that were promised it it in the Sana Barbra area?

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

If someone really wanted to, a community team could be started in SB/Goleta. It could be made open to all high school age students from any school in the area (even home schooled). Of course, the team would need to find a build space, get sponsors on-board, recruit students and register with FIRST. The team can apply for 501(c)(3) status, which makes donations to the team tax deductible. It's all doable in time for the 2016 season.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

(the following is speculation)

It seems to me that there is a split between the team and the staff/admin of the school. I wonder if there is something going on in the background that we haven't been told about. It looks like the school wants more control/oversight/accountability in what is going on with the capstone project. This seems odd.

The way this change was delivered also seems odd to me. There seemed to be no warning that this could happen. Combine this with the lack of consultation tend to make me think there is a back story as well.

Was there some group (teacher, Department Chair, Admin) that the team has rubbed the wrong way? Was it that the team, that was not totally in the school's control, was becoming the face of the school?

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I'm not so sure. I don't know if FIRST's mission and DPEA's statement about educational objectives necessarily align.

http://www.noozhawk.com/article/stud..._robotics_team

http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/vision

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

As a current resident of Santa Barbara I can offer my support to any group of students who want to start an after school program in the area.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I'm fairly certain sanddrag's reply was to the immediately preceding post, which was not about DPEA. The point here is that making FIRST a part of the curriculum at the school board (rather than an individual teacher) level will provide better continuity. Unless there's some awful baggage, it is usually easier to operate an existing team than to spin up a new one. The teams under our school board are working towards these same goals.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I think this says a lot about the state of the FIRST program and not positive things.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

That one team that was run in a very atypical way with slightly different goals than the program/most teams left the competition says bad things for the program as a whole? I'd like to hear your rationale for that one.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

There doesn't seem to be a split between Amir, based on the four articles I have read on this topic, the other teachers and the Dos Pueblos administration. In my opinion the back story is Amir wants his life back. Amir then came up with a replacement project that he considered equal to or better then FRC, he convinced the principal and the letter was written.

Creating an extra curricular team may not have even occurred to Amir. Hopefully the students and mentors who are upset, according to the articles, will step up and either resurrect the 1717 team or start a rookie team. Then they will see why lead mentors get burned out. When teams stop competing the number one reason, in my experience, is the lead mentor can't go on any longer.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I'm usually one of the loud mouths bashing FIRST for the most trivial things... but I don't see how we can draw any conclusions about FIRST from this specific school's decision.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Pretty sure Amir didn't coach the team this year, so he already had his "life back".
There are plenty of teams across the country every year that get declawed or axed by school boards for a variety of reasons, and these decisions come with various levels of pushback. The only difference here is that this is the most high profile FRC team shuttering in a while.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Well, even though we are 2nd semester seniors by the time robotics rolls around, we still have other teachers and other classes, who have various levels of vitriol toward the program. I mean, I don't blame them. Some of us would be sleeping through class, not attending for competitions, falling behind on homework, and they knew it was because we were working on the robot til 2 am (we might be idiots taking AP classes AND robotics at the same time but that's another issue). As far as I know though, the administration was very proud of the team. It's probably more complex than just that.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Disclaimer: The following opinion is purely my own and does not represent Team 1717 or the DPEA.

I am one of these years seniors and its sad for me to see this program that has inspired me so to be leaving this awesome community. I was an academic mentor this year for two of the different classes of the program(the sophomore and freshmen class). From the moment I joined the program my eyes had always been on senior year robotics competition. Being able to hear the freshmen of this year saying that they didn't really want to join the team kinda disappointed me. Being part of the "trail blazer" class obviously gave me a way different experience than the far more polished version of the program that they now have, but its still sad that the majority didn't join for the same purpose as this years robotics team did when we were freshmen. Also sad that we never got to use team 3434. Hehe :P ;). Team 1717 will definitely be missed by the surrounding community.

By the way the trail blazer class was the first class of 100 students that the program had.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Was the creation of the Mechatronics program in response to the increase of size, and does it scale well? Because as I recall, a class of 100 is a sizeable increase from the 30 the school had when it started, and a step up from the 60 it had a few years ago (I didn't know that it had grown to 100 until I saw this). If it scales better, switching over to Mechatronics makes a lot more sense, since competitive robotics organizations don't scale that easily once you get close to 100 students, even if they did multiple programs like VEX and FRC.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

ArtK we never had a class of 60 it went from 30 one year to 100 the year after that. So the program as it stands right now has about 400 students overall. So this year was the first 100 student senior class. About 60 did mechatronics and about 40 did robotics.The mechatronics project, which was introduced late last school year, was just another alternative project that we had available as this years seniors.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Did you guys start having juniors attending competitions some point? Because that could explain why I thought class size stepped up to 60. If not, my mistake about the numbers.

My original point about the size of an FRC team still stands, since there is only so much work that can be done on a robot or at an event, and still have everyone feel like they are contributing.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

First of all, I BLAME KOKO ED FOR GETTING ME INTO THIS. *shakes fist*

Also, thank you jankBS (oh the irony of that name) and dgilbueno for your insight with the team.

I was a life long member of 384 during high school and the experience has formed who I am today. FIRST isn't just an engineering program or a competition, it's a full business simulation. Engineers, programmers, engineering minded students, and programming minded students build the robot, but a full business system builds around it. One robotics friend this past summer got married and he graduated college going into video production for TV stations.

I will be honest, my small exposure to Mechatronics sounds like a good engineering program, and that's the problem. I see no engagement or captivation beyond "engineering kids". FIRST built a program around a business, governed by mentors, that attracts kids of all interests.

During my involvement late in 384 I was asked to assist with moving part of the program to a new high school opening up in the county. I had two paths going at that point: one with a variance due to other issues and staying at 384, or going to the new high school. Working with the new principle was a major problem; any conversion surrounding transition plans with 384 would result in complaints of a lack of new 'school spirit'. Honest, open communication about success were stifled by what I perceived at 16 as being confusion. Later, I would find he was working on his own plan with other teams in the area, eschewing relationships build over the years. After significant push back and a clear sign he did not care I pulled the variance cord and stayed at 384 until I graduated. This taught me an important lesson in education: politics never should interfere with education, but do.

1717's plight reminds me of my issues dealing with education system politics. I cannot comment on what they've done raising awareness, but I feel for these students to the point I come back years after swearing myself out of FIRST to post here. What their board of education has done is short sighted. That board wants is to teach kids engineering; not how to interact in a business, work with others of various ages, or inspire all with the importance on engineering.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

ArtK nope its always been just seniors.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I realize that you were actually a part of this program.
But I swear, after a long discussion with Amir about his program back in 2010 when we did the SD regional together, he said his program consisted of juniors and seniors doing FRC. I'm like 99.9% sure, or just getting a little too old!

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I know in 2009 it was all seniors from The New Cool.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Nope, just the seniors.



If I was in the affected class(es), I'd be lobbying for the OPTION to continue with the team (given that someone was willing to serve as the school sponsor) until all the current students (not sure whether I'd include incoming freshmen in that) in DPEA graduated. Kind of like having a senior design course in college: you generally get to pick your project at that level, to some degree.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I met Juniors at competitions but they weren't on the team. They were just their to see the competition.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

The only people that work on the robot are the head mentor which in this year's case was Sam Ridgeway, the senior class students on the team and the amazing mentors that came every night during build season. I'm pretty sure its been like that every year since it started. Some of the juniors are on the academies business teams and they document the competitions, do appearal, or do other none robot building things so the team can focus on building the best robot possible :P.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I represent a FIRST Robotics Team and Program in Michigan and I would like to offer some perspective for the program and community of Dos Pueblos. I am from FRC Team 68, Truck Town Thunder, Ortonville, Michigan. I am the team leader of the team and teacher. I completely understand the views of the school district here but I would like to offer an opportunity to the team, mentors and students. This is a great opportunity to restructure the team to better align with FIRST to allow all high school students from the district to participate in the team in all grades. A large majority of teams are ran as an after school program allowing students from the 9th - 12th grade to participate. From what I have read about FRC Team 1717, much of the funds collected in the past included a FIRST Robotics team. With the school not utilizing the program during the school day, doesn't mean it cannot be done after school hours. With the amount of support the team has both in the community of Dos Pueblos and FIRST community as a whole, there is no reason for this exceptional team needs to stop existing. I would be happy to share any materials, etc, to help make this happen. I would like to offer my support from Michigan and the entire FIRST in Michigan community. If there is anything we can do to help keep this team functioning, please let us know. FRC Team 1717 would leave a huge hole in the international community and an excellent role model of a team for students and adults look up to as leaders. I would like to say to the administrators of Dos Pueblos that it is important to keep FRC Team 1717 running and participating in FIRST. In the spirit of gracious professionalism, Tell me what you need and I will personally help you sort it out! This team and program has been an inspiration of mine as a leader and I would be happy to give back in any way I can.

For more information on our program, visit our website athttp://trucktownthunder.com/

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

FIRST Robotics Represents the work force and does a great job doing. I know TONS of Engineers in the work force who do not directly work on the physical building of a system. There are so many things involved in running an Engineering Department. I would hope that Los pueblos considers this when getting rid of the program. Engineering comes in a variety of forms. Read my post above. I know there are a lot of great opportunities for the administration to consider the team running outside of the school day. This is done all over the country and there are many examples to follow in this.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

I'm quite certain that if they wanted to, they could run 1717 as an after school program. I am sure there's some reason that's not transparent to us that is causing them not to (my personal guess is that it has to do with the team's legacy post-Amir).

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

Aspiece I can see where you're trying to go with this, but I personally don't think would be the same if it ran separate from the program that started it. That's why I've been slyly suggesting that someone in the community start up team 3434. A number that we had saved for this year, but didn't end up using because of the mechatronics project. I feel like if we used that team we'd give more people in the community a chance as well as the current seniors who were so excited for this upcoming year.

Cory you're correct if Amir really wanted to we could probably run it the same way we've run it for a while. In the program as a senior we have a ninth period during build season going from 4:30 pm to the next morning. It's basically the same thing as an after school program, but we get credits for attending. So basically it runs the same as most other teams from what I've seen.

Re: Team 1717 retires
 

This is one of those asinine (Amir's words from The New Cool) State of California A through G things: Having a regular-day class in robotics only counts as an elective if you get a science or math teacher to teach it, and attempt to fit the class requirements into the UC or CalState regimen for admissions. FRC during the regular day has too much variety in the program for a fit into our narrow educator-bred curricular focus. Getting an "A" in the class will actually pull down your GPA if you as a student are on the Honors/AP track.

And so the removal of 1717 as a functioning FRC team as part of the regular day curriculum. Then there's the whole back-story thing of permitting all students the same kind of engineering-based education.

But: They've the people with the skills and motivation (and the shop) to continue a world class team; I foresee them pulling it back together as an after-school club and continuing with their legacy.

Maybe TorBots will see you in the driver's station, or from across the field in Long Beach or Orange County CA.