Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I recently came across this on facebook, a girl wanted to attend a robotics session at her local library (Timmins public library), she was turned away simply because she was a girl, I know that we as a community in FIRST are already working furiously to get women into stem, so please sign this petition to allow females in this robotics program. At this time the petition is only 346 signatures away from the goal of 2,500 (I know we can help them surpass this goal!) https://www.change.org/p/timmins-public-library-allow-girls-to-participate-in-the-robotics-session?recruiter=243118406&utm_source=share_petit ion&utm_medium=copylink

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Signed. It's a shame that this is still even an issue.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Signed. Policies like this only serve to widen the gender gap in STEM fields.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Signed...sigh.

Wish we lived in a world where petitions like this didn't have to exist.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Now only need 144 more.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

127 more please sign!!

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Signed
78 more to go
You go girl :D

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Signed! 72 More!

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

29 more!

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Currently at 2591

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I would love to hear the library's side of this story. I'm sure they would be able to shed some light on this.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

The library's side of the story was reported by the girl's parent as something like "Boys forget things during the summer and they're the ones who need this kind of activity." It'll be interesting to see if they give a direct statement.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Having just spent a week with awesome librarians as part of the ILEAD June session the context of this activity and the narrative presented is completely opposite of what I would expect from a public library.

That being said, it was being advertised as a " *Special boys program - ages 9-12 years old* ". If the library wanted to address the claim that "boys academic and literacy skills don't improve over the summer break" I would like to see some cited evidence.

It would definitely be good to hear the standpoint of the library and the supporting evidence to their claim. Maybe there was a strong public interest in addressing a local problem such as boys literacy and this was a result. NOTE: I'm not saying that excluding such a program for girls is the right solution, just that robotics may not have been the program's goal. It would have been prudent to add an inclusive program for girls and boys.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Don't demonize the library. On the surface, at least, this is not unlike other programs that target audiences with special characteristics in order to get the most bang from their bucks, or to experiment with affecting one dimension of a social need.

I have participated in programs that were only offered to low-income students, or that targeted students who don't attend public schools. Those were generally celebrated for satisfying a need, and not castigated for excluding some (deserving) students.

Reading about a program that is focusing on boys is guaranteed to trigger knee-jerk reactions in many of us, but our reflexes might betray us in this case. Avoid the impulse to shoot from the hip, and find out the full picture before deciding where you stand.

Blake

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

If everyone who virtually signed the petition, additionally/instead sent $1 (US) to the library, the library would have plenty off money for starting a co-ed program to operate alongside their current program, and would be able to pay a nice stipend to whoever administers, and to whoever mentors, that new co-ed program.

I'm thinking that would be an excellent positive/helpful outcome; and repeating it would be a knee-jerk reaction worth cultivating.

Blake

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

The point is NOT that the library doesn't have enough money for women to attend the program. The point is that the library should be accepting women into the program regardless of how much money they have instead of making generic assumptions under the guise of maximizing effectiveness.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

How much uproar would there be if this was a program targeted towards increasing girls in STEM and they refused a boy because there wasn't enough money?

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

And you got your in-depth understanding of the programs goals, the community's needs, and the program's financing from where exactly? I would like to learn about them too.

And, your assertion about correctness rests on what compromise among the various things a public intuition might try to accomplish? Absolutes are few and far between in these conversations. There is no such thing as "fairness" in an absolute sense, outside the realm of abstract mathematics.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Mrs De Bonis explained to me that boys academic and literacy skills don't improve over the summer break therefore this program would only be offered to boys.

Nowhere in the change.org petition do they mention the library's finances. I was pointing out that throwing money at the library wouldn't solve the root problem raised specifically by this girl and her mother on the petition.

I guess it would depend on whether or not the boy's parent made a change.org petition and it went viral.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Not that I would encourage this, but I'm pretty sure if the parents were to sue the library they would win easily. Assuming this is a public library, this is a clear case of gender discrimination by a government entity. A good lawyer would have a field day with a case like this.

Just saying.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Let me get this straight, you want me to take at face value, the accuracy and completeness of a virtual petition posted on the internet??? Please - I'm not that naive.

In addition to taking the Internet at face value being a low-payoff bet; nowhere in my post did I mention the library's finances either.

Please read again all of what I wrote. I didn't focus on finances. I raised the notion that telling someone they are wrong isn't the only way to react to an incompletely described situation like this; and I focused on ensuring interested young women's needs would be met.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

There's a big difference between hosting a targeted event and discrimination. Every year I play in a men's softball league during the summer. Is that gender discrimination, because the city hosting the league doesn't allow women into it? Is it somehow different if we look at their full offerings and see that, gosh, they also have co-ed and women's only legues?. What about all of those public schools that have separate girls/boys sports teams? Is it gender discrimination to not let a girl on the boys soccer team, or a boy on the girls swim team? Look at that libraries offerings - they offer a whole lot of stuff that isn't gendered. They have age ranges listed for many groups - is that age discrimination?

The key here, I think, is that the library isn't denying the girl the chance to visit, check out or read books, or join other groups. They just said no to joining this particular group. That doesn't make it discrimination.

All that said, this does appear, on the surface, as a case of fulfilling gender stereotypes, which is, unfortunately, something our society seems really good at doing all the time. We constantly push our stereotypical images, guiding different groups down different paths, which is something that we really should change, and something it would be great to see public places like the library try to tackle. This is an opportunity to educate the employees of that library, provide them with a shining example of non-stereotypical gender roles, and get them on our side. Not an opportunity to contemplate a lawsuit that really wouldn't have any winner.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Not disagreeing, but, if valid measurements show that young mens' knowledge and abilities do erode significantly more than young womens' during school breaks; trying out a boys-only STEM program might be a useful experiment to run. After the results are in, the hypothetical program might adopt a more nuanced admission policy (and that policy might reject anyone who isn't at high risk of academic problems, including (my guess) the student who wants into the currently program).

I know a little about one large urban school system that use grant money to run a multi-million dollar STEM experiment that attempted to reduce students' post-summer-break test score declines. I believe the program was a glowing success.

That program enrolled students from "Title 1" schools (low-income communities). That was something of a broad brush approach to picking participants; but I'm *guessing* that it was a reasonable compromise to use in a large city in order to get usable result measurements without adding the expense and logistics of identifying and admitting candidate students one-by-one.

However, if you were the most-at-risk student in the least-affluent, non-Title-1 school district in that city, you might have wanted to start a virtual petition.

Was the program I described a good one, or an evil one? It didn't give every student a chance to participate.. It discriminated based on age, based on the student's neighbors' wealth, based on the total school system's boundaries, based on ...

Blake
PS: [TOTALLY TONGUE-IN-CHEEK]Extrapolating from the tiny bit of hopefully-accurate information we have about the program's reason for existing, the obvious way to change the program's goals in the future would be for the young women in the town to agree to purposefully do poorly on their back-to-school exams. If they do that, they will need summer programs more than the boys do.[/TOTALLY TONGUE-IN-CHEEK]

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Likewise signed

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Is it the programming that prevents said erosion or that it is for boys only?

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

That's messed up

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I have to agree that jumping on the "discrimination" bandwagon this early is a tad bit unreasonable considering how little we actually know about this program, however, the reasoning (that the petition claims was given, not a direct statement by the library available to us) is some that I have never seen before.

I'm not particularly invested in this issue, so I'm not quite willing to go looking, but has anyone found any kind of evidence supporting this kind of argument? In addition, depending on how they are gathering their data, it seems like allowing girls into the program would be a non issue, as they could simply separate the girls and boys data afterwards. Just seems a bit strange is all.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

In the cases you list though, women have their own groups for basically the same things. That does not seem to be the case in this instance with this library. If the library were offering a girls class and a boys class I doubt there would be a complaint, but because they are offering a class that excludes girls without any alternative, the case could be made that it's discriminatory.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this should go to court; I was merely making the observation that if the family wanted to pursue legal action they would probably have a good chance of winning based on examples I've seen of other cases somewhat similar to this. I also think that the library is being stupid for opening themselves up to the potential legal issues (and the costs associated with fighting it) that such litigation would impose, and that the very simple solution is to either hold two classes or not block girls from joining it if they're interested.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I've withheld my judgement (and my signature) from this completely until and unless there's a clearer explanation of circumstances from both sides. For instance, is it a finance issue, is it a research study, is it funded by a restricted grant, is there a counterpart group for girls*? I am all for not taking things at face value. At the same time, Blake, I do believe that you're the one who asked us to send money to the library--what would amount to $2,500 total--not only without knowing whether this is due to financial or other acceptable reasons, but without having any idea whatsoever what the library would do with that money. I'm all for giving both sides the opportunity to explain their case, but can we all please refrain from making up positive claims in order to deliberately use them against opposition supporters?

*To address myself and Jon Stratis, the petition explains "She [Assistant Library Director Elaine De Bonis] said I [the girl in question] could be added to a waiting list and if enough girls showed interest they could possibly look into offering it to girls in the future." I have no reason to disbelieve this and no evidence to the contrary, but at this point it's hearsay.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

In other news, just hit this in my research:

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...184721564.html

Timmins Public Library reverses decision on boys-only robotics event after girl's petition

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I'd like to remind you that this is "CD", the use of outside research to find out facts is completely against the proper use of this forum. :rolleyes:

----

I have to say that this is the first time I've seen a change.org petition work.

I also liked this: Umm, you got your daughter in which was your primary mission. And NOW you want an apology? :(

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

The following quote is taken from this Library publication.

I am quite happy that the decision was reserved and it is now an inclusive program.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Ok then... What about football? That's a guys-only activity at every school I've ever heard of...

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Madison - Please pardon my thickheadedness, I'm not exactly sure what you want to learn, and whether you are posing a hypothetical/rhetorical question or wanting to dig into the actual experiment I described.

If you want to learn more about that actual program, certainly PM me and I'll put you in touch with someone who can get you answers.

If (and I emphasize *IF*), you discovered that boys in this community in the targeted ages are falling far behind the girls in scholastic achievement, and if you found out that one consequence was that the boys soon join street gangs that carry out many violent crimes against women (and men), and if you found out that this program was a program with a highly specialized lesson plan (focused on all sorts of young-male needs (the robot isn't the purpose of the program)) that is going to try to quietly steer the most at-risk students in that community away from a bad path; would you still be happy?

What I described here is unlikely, but it is certainly possible. I would want to know more about the situation before becoming happy or sad.

I don't think I made up a positive claim.

I tried to do two things, to make a point.

1) I tried to take the petitioners' positive claims about the library's good works at face-value, more or less. That is a more nuanced attitude than simply saying everything on the Internet is bogus. I think it was a reasonable risk.

2) I tried to pretend I was there. If I were talking face-to-face with the petitioners, I doubt the conversation would have gone more than five minutes before I suggested that they form a club/team. I don't know if the library's plan was a good one or a bad one, but I do know that no one in that community has to change it one iota, in order to enjoy learning about robotics. Where there is a will, there is a way.

If you like, I'll modify my suggestion into either sending the money to the petitioner, or to some well-known trustworthy steward.

My advice to the world in general: At the individual club/team, and the local tournament levels, be a force for positive change, but don't squabble over STEM programs like they are a scarce resource that only some illuminati from the secret-handshake cabal can supply (and insist that they supply your fair share to you). Instead, just do it (yourself); and leave any misguided folks/programs behind you eating your dust.

Blake

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

For the record, I read your positive claim as being an unvoiced assumption that this was somehow a financial constraint. I haven't yet seen any evidence of this anywhere.

That aside, I think you bring up a very good point with "don't squabble over STEM programs like they are a scarce resource that only some illuminati from the secret-handshake cabal can supply". I'm not saying that this is a good thing, but I think there's something about STEM programs that we as a community don't acknowledge very often: to the average consumer--the target of culture change--STEM opportunities are still a scarce commodity, and they are supplied by special people. I think we sometimes forget from the inside how difficult this is for many other organizations/individuals. We all know many, maybe countless teams that have folded, or that continue to show up with boxes of parts or kids that didn't know they needed Core Value and Project components. The folks who run successful teams are celebrated as impressive individuals. And I'm not even talking about Paul Copioli or John Larock; think about the team down the street from you that survived a teachers' strike or a elementary school XC cutback, or a change in leadership, or the loss of a JC Penney grant.

Providing a STEM program is fun for many of us; it's motivating; it's worth the sacrifices we make and the attention we give it; it may even be intuitive. But it's not easy. It's important to acknowledge that not all consumers make good suppliers, and it's important to acknowledge that it takes more to be a supplier than money and even interest. Maybe you do the rest naturally for robotics, or maybe you're that kind of person in everything you do (kudos). But as we try to permeate the culture with new programs, remember that it's not just about STEM resources, it's about people. We need to win over people who are willing to take responsibility, give it initiative, commit to the time and effort, do their homework, accept support where it's hopefully available, navigate bureaucracy, and on and on. Next time you think spreading STEM is just about dumping LEGO parts on LEGO enthusiasts, remember all the projects we haven't finished that are still sitting in our garages or on our hard drives.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

You give me money and a motivated parent who knows students that want to form a STEM club or team, and I'll give you back a club or team. Money makes stuff happen.

I wasn't trying to say that the library was advertising a boys-only program because the library was short on funds, I was saying that a good-sized dose of money would make the subject of that particular boys-only program essentially irrelevant.

With enough money you can equip a team, and hire a full-time coach/teacher/mentor. With far, far less money than the cost of a full-time coach, you can still get the job done. With a $2500 budget, one motivated parent, and one motivated student; I'll bet on success.

Some folks in the world of educational/inspirational STEM programs have a tendency to over-complicate those programs. It's natural. But... When speaking to novices, I try to steer them toward the simpler programs, and to point out to them how low the barriers to entry are.

For example:

Start with either an VIQ/FLL team, or a VRC/FTC team. For all of those except the FTC team, I know the basic kitbot can be built and programmed in one day. I assume an FTC bot can be built quickly too, but I don't have recent direct experience.

After getting that done, a team can spend any remaining time in the calendar year learning/teaching everything the team will need in order to observe/learn/network/etc. (and OBTW compete) in a tournament in year one, and to continue growing in year two (It's not about the robot!).

And for the love of Pete, unless they are in an area that already has a strong tech-savvy adult/mentor infrastructure, plus a strong economic infrastructure; don't drop a JC Penny grant on a virgin community, and expect them form a low-risk FRC team. Kudos to anyone who has put down roots and thrived as an FRC team after a cash kickstart, without first having a FTC/VEX and/or FLL/VIQ foundation in place.

Before anyone writes it, I agree that I am oversimplifying, but I'll contend that I'm only oversimplifying a little. Encouragement, mentoring, and other forms of help are important to any new team at any level; but are they essential? I have personal experiences that tell me they are not, if you choose the program wisely.

Connecting this back to the topic... We agree more than we disagree, but our responses to the hypothetical cash-infused library situation might differ.

If I had $2500 to offer the petitioners, I would tell them that they absolutely don't need any help from their local library (other than perhaps the use of a meeting room once per week); and if I had $2500 to offer the library, I would tell them that they absolutely can (and should) form an open-admission robotics club to complement any special-purpose clubs their community might need.

Yes - My attitude comes with a built-in assumption that if anyone spent just a little time looking, they could find at least one motivated, responsible adult, and at least one motivated student; and that if those two know how to use a web browser, they will have an embarrassment of help at their fingertips.

If these imaginary club(s) are successful, some time in the not to distant future, after they have put down some community roots, the club(s) might want to try a year of FRC competition.

Blake

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Hey guys since everyone dislikes inequality in STEM opportunities, can someone please start a petition to get this shut down?


In all seriousness, I think all these programs are fine, I would just like to see consistency in people's arguements- if you jump on a bandwagon against a STEM boys-only program, you should do the same for a STEM girls-only program.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Boys score lower on reading tests than girls. That's a problem since reading affects every other area of academic achievement. Boys also have lower high school graduation rates and fewer boys attend or graduate from college.

If you wanted to create a targeted program that tries to address that gap, you'd probably want to base it around something that boys like, such as robotics.

I can see why there's a righteous backlash given the under-representation of girls in STEM stuff. Excluding girls was a whiff, but I suspect that these people had their hearts in the right place when they stumbled into this thing.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

There aren't fewer boys pursuing STEM compared to girls.

Boys are not consistently conditioned, from a young age, to believe that STEM careers are out of their reach or beyond their capability.

It is in no way unreasonable to recognize that our culture -- to its detriment! -- has a deleterious impact upon young women's ability to have meaningful, lasting impact on their own future.

Taking action to correct that impact is a moral imperative; claims about discrimination against boys, in this area, are ridiculous on their face and represent a fundamental lack of awareness of the benefit, as a man, this culture provides you.

Be part of the solution.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

This petition has generated a lot of attention in the mainstream media. Here's a link to an article on the Cosmopolitan website.

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics...1440_203830209

Great job by everyone here helping spread the word in the petition's early stages.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Karthik - Without hearing more from the program's planners, I don't disagree with or applaud the change in the library's program.

The Cosmo article does have a large audience, but to me it also seems rather self-serving, in a specious, echo chamber, sound bite sort of way.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Really glad she was able to get into the program and that girls are now able to participate.

The best analogy I've heard for this kind of situation that Madison is describing (for anyone asking why I don't sign petitions against girls only programs) is: "In Mario Cart, you don't get Blue Shells or Bullets when you're already in First Place"

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

It's incredibly unfortunate how often legitimate points in discussions like this are met with some variant of "check your privledge!!!". How would your response differ if that was posted anonymously?

All that matters is that both boys and girls get an equal oppourtunity, with reasonably close to equal effort, to explore STEM careers. If this requires specifically gender-targeted programs, I am perfectly fine with that- it just has to be consistent. It is a single boys-only program in a province where there are, for example, over 200 FLL teams. Therefore, by my estimation, there are other opportunities closeby. If you are against some one-gender programs but not others, you are not being part of the solution.

I just want consistency and more information about this situation.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

My response wouldn't change because the argument you present comes from a privileged point of view.

Girls are not getting an equal opportunity to pursue STEM-related topics. Consequently, additional effort is required to correct our course.

A sleepy driver lets their car drift slowly toward the side of the road until they are awoken by a rumble strip. The driver is now aware there's a problem. A slow course correction -- one given equal effort to the drift that led them off course in the first place -- leads to disaster. Swift, immediate action is required.

There is a problem getting girls interested in STEM. Swift, immediate action is required. Continuing to stay the course leads to disaster.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

And sudden knee-jerk course correction leads to rolling the car over, leading to disaster.

No one (I've seen here) is saying there isn't an existing problem with the participation of girls in STEM. No one is seriously advocating we eliminate girl-targeted STEM activities. We disagree about the best way to make things fair and equitable (which consequently are charged words that are ambiguous in their interpretation)

Lastly, I'll leave this here

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I'm going to take this one line at a time.

I disagree. A targeted event by it's very nature is discriminatory

Yes.

There's no difference. Both the women's and Men's league discriminate as to whom they allow to play.

Again, yes it is discriminatory.

Anytime you exclude a group, you are discriminating.

That's like stating that it's OK for girls to be in high school but not take advanced calculus.

When someone is not allowed to do what another is allowed to do, due to a trait, then it is discrimination.

Now, that being said, we discriminate all the time, and many times for good reason. Not allowing someone to run a mill because they have not been trained to run it safely is a good reason to discriminate. To not allow a person to run a mill because she is female is NOT a good reason.

Truthfully, I believe that the library saw a statistic (boys literacy drops during summer vacation) and tried to address that without looking at the bigger picture and is discriminatory nature.

JM(NS)HO

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I don't think anyone on either side objects to programs whose curricula are specifically designed to help groups who benefit from the targeted assistance. The upset comes from two other places:
1) When counterpart specificity is not available for another group in need. [e.g. If everyone benefits from playing in either the girls or boys basketball league, you don't see people complaining.]
2) When the criteria for eligibility do not align with the foci of the curriculum.

Take your "Girls Rock" event. This and other STEM Girls events are specifically designed to help girls understand that stereotypes they face precisely because they are female are inaccurate and can be overcome. This is in fact a gendered event, and its program doesn't make sense for boys--it's not beneficial to them because they face different stereotypes.

Compare this to the library group. Its described curriculum is not a gender-targeted solution. They're not trying to help boys overcome stereotypes about truancy that they are exposed to simply because they are boys. (And this is a thing, but it's not what they explained.) The program in question is gender-neutral, and the eligibility criteria are not. I doubt anyone would be complaining if Timmins had advertised "club for students who struggle to maintain N-grade reading over the summer", because this is a reasonably targeted problem, just like "club for girls who want help overcoming gender-based stereotypes in STEM". Moreover, consider the case where Timmins had advertised what they meant, and a girl showed up with exactly the same testing patterns as a boy in the club. I'd wager that even people who are apt to forgive gendered programs would be upset. Because with true advertising, everyone realizes that this is not a gender-targeted solution. It's a gender-neutral solution subjected to a statistically consistent gender-based stereotype.

No unrelated attribute--gender, race, ethnicity, etc--should be used as shorthand for a problem that merely correlates statistically with it. If you mean people that struggle with reading over the summer, say that. If you mean people who struggle against gender-based stereotypes, say that. If Timmins were running a simultaneous program that was "Girls/Latinos/Caucasians ONLY Widget-X training club" because girls or Latinos or Caucasians are statistically worse at X, just like boys are statistically worse at reading, I'd be equally upset. Because they'd be stereotyping girls/Latinos/Caucasians the same way they're stereotyping boys.

Finally, consider the counterpoint for boys. If Timmins were running a club especially for say, boys who'd lost their dads and were struggling through teenagedom without father figures, no one would even blink. Because we understand that this is in fact a difficult situation specifically for the audience who meets the admission criteria. The program wouldn't be as helpful to a girl--and I say this as a girl who indeed lost her father at that age. I'd hope there's a counterpart club for girls. On the chance that there wasn't, I should be allowed to able to garner what I can from the boys' club. To be less melancholy, this is how girls get on football teams where there isn't enough interest to form a fitting-caliber girls' team. Despite low (arguably too low) numbers, girls have made it in such cases, and this is generally celebrated as in line with societal good.


tl;dr: Say what you mean. Don't rely on unrelated attributes to convey something that isn't related to them.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

So, what you're implying is that every business who markets to a target demographic is racist/sexist/whateverist and should be punished. Sounds accurate.

It's discrimination, but is it an attack on social equity? No.

This statement is misleading. Was every team at a regional that didn't get picked excluded from elims? Yes. Am I discriminating by selecting specific teams? Yes. Am I attacking those I didn't pick? No. Is there a social justice battle to be fought? No.


Frankly, the quoted justification for an all-boys program sounds fabricated, whether that be by the parent or the librarian. The statement on cognitive decay in boys, even if it is true (I honestly don't know if it is), is weak reasoning for an all-boys STEM program. I have a feeling that either the librarian didn't know what to say to an unnecessarily angry parent, or the unnecessarily angry parent is demonizing the librarian.
In fact, if you actually read it, the librarian offers a reasonable compromise in allowing the student to waitlist. It's an all-boys program, and the librarian gave her an opportunity to join despite that. I respect the librarian's decision, and he/she has obviously been demonized in this situation. I'll vote for STEM for girls, but I don't support the idea that we should be trying to cleanse society of anything one person finds offensive for rash, unjustified reasons.
Target audiences are discrimination, but they aren't an example of social ignorance. An example of social ignorance would have been if the librarian explained that girls couldn't do STEM. An example of social ignorance would be to not develop an understanding before developing an opinion. The information provided in the petition is obviously one-sided and leaves out some vital details, including a proper dialogue and an explanation of the program itself. These holes, when filled, may allow us to develop a stronger understanding of the issue. Until then, we can fill those holes any way we want, but any opinion will be founded on vague, biased information.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Just an update, the ruling has been overturned and it is now any children, not just males.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I've read through this thread and related articles, and I don't see a justification for the demonization of the librarian and the Timmins event simply because it was exclusive to boys. The librarian seemed to do the best she could given the constraints she was given: namely, that the event was exclusive to boys, and a girl wanted to attend said event, so she proposed a waitlist, and with enough demand would bring it up the hierarchy to make it happen. She probably didn't have the authority to admit or deny the girl to the event.

Secondly, with regards to all-boys programs, I don't see a problem with them existing. In fact, I was part of the all boys FRC team 254, and have seen work done by teams that are all-male, all-female, and coed (The three Ames teams actually have one of each). They all ran with different ways of doing things at different levels, from the division of labor to what we had for dinner (one of the most important cultural lessons I learned on 254 was that you never say no to good barbecue :P ).

The students on the teams were also very different beyond the obvious gender differences. 254 students were typically people who might not be super worried about having perfect grades or stellar SAT scores (when I joined, I wasn't), whereas 1868 students sent at least multiple girls to MIT or Caltech or other cream of the crop engineering colleges each year (actual stats from 1868 are welcome). 254 taught me and my peers the value in putting in the effort in what we did, or why to fight the "cognitive decay" that could have happened (Even though classes got harder each term, my grades went up as did my involvement on the team). And from my experiences in all boys programs (high school, robotics, summer camps, etc.), that is generally what they are after. It would come to no surprise to me if this was the program's original intent, however poorly executed it may have been.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

1) Discrimination is not always bad. The word picked up negative connotations in my lifetime, and many folks currently unconsciously interpret it or use it *only* to mean a bad thing. Other folks, use it without the negative baggage, either to make a point, or because they learned the original meaning of the term and have stuck with it. Don't let those different uses of that word cause you to get your wires crossed in this discussion. See here for what I think are crossed wires post 52.

2) Some opinions I have developed over the years that I hope will complement artK's well-written observations:

If you are ever asked to influence how limited resources should be used, at some point along the spectrum of contexts that range from family, to neighborhood, to community, to region, to society, you will almost certainly find that you don't have enough resources to solve, accomplish, satisfy, and act on the important problems, goals, needs and imperatives those resources can be applied to.

Along those lines, in this thread, I think I have seen explicit or implicit references and allusions to:

• Offering equal opportunity to all ___
• Acting on a moral imperative
• Satisfying ___ named need
• Countering current ___ imbalances
• Preventing ___ failures
• Nurturing above-average ___ performers
• Influencing future ___

Well, in my opinion, they (and any similar attitudes) all deserve a seat at the table. However, until someone convinces me that they know where the magic bag of unlimited resources is, I believe that each choice to invest in one is a choice to reduce the investment in the others. If I'm in the right ballpark with this sort of outlook, then some posts in this thread are simultaneously 100% right, and 100% wrong.

In my opinion, there is no one true cause that trumps the rest; and there is no universally "fair" approach to allocating resources. It's all a compromise.

Something important to someone always falls below the line; and the compromises that are made in pursuit of various important topics will almost always appear to be poor choices when viewed through other topics' lenses, or when viewed at an inappropriate scale.

So, if my thesis is still in the right ballpark, let's remember that in this thread, we are discussing both ideals and implementations. While those ideals might exist in black and white perfection; in the real world, with very rare exception, they can only be implemented as compromises in shades of gray.

Blake

PS:[LESS SERIOUS]The last I heard, there were 9000 virtual signatures on the virtual petition. If all 9000 petitioners had each endowed some trustworthy steward with 50 cents, the total would be $4500.

Regardless of what the library's financial situation is, with that much cash, the petitioner could be collaborating right now with the library to expand the library's plans to include not only a summer program for boys (and at-risk girls?) that would use robots to trick the boys (would robots be a good lure for girls?) into visiting the library and doing summer reading; but also a program that would would form a competitive coed robotics club focused on inspiring students to consider STEM careers, and a program that would create a STEM club that would offer less-outgoing girls (and boys?) a nurturing environment in which they could thrive.[/LESS SERIOUS]

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I never said anything about social (in)equality. All I was doing was answering his questions. ... and yes it IS discrimination.

I did not state that discrimination is always bad, in fact I showed an example when it is good and necessary. Discrimination does not always equal social (in)justice. The real issue is why the library was being discriminatory. What was their reasoning and thought process (and I doubt we will ever, truly, be told).

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Perhaps the issue here is the difference between the technical definition of the word "discriminate" - to note or observe a difference - and it's accepted sociopolitical meaning - To systematically treat a group in a negative manor. Sure, there are many examples of discrimination per the first definition... That's something we all do every day. The second difference is where there are significant issues, and, in fact, is an area where our country is currently experiencing some strong opinions and disagreements (for reference, Google anything regarding private businesses refusing to service gay weddings... I predict this is something that will end up before the supreme court in the next 5 years).

Personally, I don't see this particular instance as the sociopolitical sort of discrimination. They created a targeted class. There's no difference between this class an, for example, the Boy Scouts. Or the Girl Scouts. Or an all girls Catholic school, or an all boys military prep school. In each situation, the organization is targeting their efforts to provide a unique (and hopefully beneficial) experience for the community, one that they feel could not be delivered as effectively if the experience was opened to a wider audience. As the Supreme Court has previously ruled (For example, see Boy Scouts of America vs Dale, even if this is one case where I don't think the Boy Scouts were in the right), this is perfectly legal.

Let's face it... As a society, we have a bad history with discrimination. We discriminated against people based on both race and gender for a long time. We all know that our country was founded on the premise of white, male, land owners having the final say. We've come a long way since then. But because of that history, we, as a culture, have almost become oversensitized to it. We see anything that might, in some way, indicate a return to that way of life, and we label it. We push it forward as a Very Bad Thing and shame anyone who might speak a thought that isn't totally against it. Instead, we should be trying to avoid such sociopolitically charged words in order to have a civil discussion that doesn't paint anyone into a corner.

I'll leave you with a passing thought... The team I mentor, the team I've worked with for the past 9 years, is an all girls teams. They come from an all girls school, and have as part of their mission statement the desire to promote girls in STEM. It's something I strongly believe in. Is my team and it's school discriminating?

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Yes, it is discrimination by the literal definition. However, in its sociopolitical definition, there is no discrimination because it is benefiting a classically underserved and neglected demographic, without any direct negative effects on other groups of people. This is why I find this quote:

so wrong. I understand the literal definition of "discrimination," but using it in this manner ignores the connotation of the word. It ignores the dichotomy between discrimination as an action upon analysis, and discrimination as a form of social attack. Both definitions exist and are socially significant, and therefore both must be acknowledged.

Spotlighted. This is essentially what I was trying to say above.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

1868 alumnae, going to MIT :D :

Let me find my Chairman's binder :p We don't keep stats by year (except by memory), but we've sent 13 girls to MIT. We also send girls to a wide variety of other colleges, but that is by far the single biggest destination. The other colleges with more than one alumna are UC Davis, UC Berkeley, Harvard, Cal Poly, Case Western, and Stanford. We actually only have one alumna at Caltech that I know of.

I wouldn't say that we all are as academically focused as portrayed, but it's not an unfair generalization to make if you are making generalizations. I would say that it's not necessarily a gender thing--I know a fair number of guys with similar attitudes towards academics.

(This post doesn't actually have much to do with the discussion, but Art asked.)

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

This is where my disconnect happens. How does one jump from "there aren't unlimited resources" to "the qualifier to access should be gender". No one is complaining that there wasn't specifically a counterpart girls program, they're complaining that there wasn't any alternative for girls access to resources. Not a single person on this forum would've batted an eye if this OP had been "Timmins Public Library caps enrollment in robotics club for financial/other resource reasons", or even "robotics club enrollment is capped". Please point me in the direction of a place where this cap isn't assumed for some N, it's probably where we'll find that bottomless resource bag. And we probably would've clapped if the OP were "Timmins opens robotics club to help students who struggle with retaining skills over the summer".

Instead, in a program that is in no way gendered itself, girls were excluded simply for being girls. These resources weren't being used to help boys in uniquely boy ways (like access to Little Brother-Big Brother resources) or overcome uniquely male problems (like male gender stereotypes). Gender was being used as a proxy for a very real issue that's affects all genders, even if it's to different extents. That means discrimination should be based on the effect, not based on the gender. Using gender instead is what drives social inequality on both the male and female sides.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Access to what?

When you wrote "the qualifier to access" you didn't include what you thought would be accessed. What do you think was/is the event's nature? How much do you know about the event? How familiar are you with it's goals, its planned methods, or any other details?

If you have been assuming that the event was going to closely resemble the STEM education and inspiration programs that tend to dominate the CD mindset (programs that spend a lot of time teaching students about STEM topics), that might be one reason we are talking past each other.

Based on what has been posted here, and on my general prejudice that libraries are not bastions of irrational, hateful, or narrow-minded thinking, I have been assuming the event would be quite different from a typical VEX, BEST, FIRST, etc. event.

Blake
PS: Time for sleep now. I'll write an answer that tries to close the disconnect tomorrow. If you can shed some light on this post's question that will help me. I'll bet closing that gap is possible.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

The event itself is the resource to which I'm referring. It doesn't matter what robots it has or how much money (I'm not sure what you're referring to exactly). Think for a moment that you're that nine-year-old girl. The thing that hurts most sharply when this happens isn't that you're missing some specific NXT class or a Botball table, it's that a library official told you no because you're a girl. There was no substantive reason to put her through that, because there was no substantive reason to discriminate (dictionary term) in this case. Literacy for 9-12 year olds is no more a gendered topic at a public school than it is at a public library. Pushing it into being gendered inevitably creates the opportunity to hurt more people (including girls who would miss the enrollment cap in a gender-neutral program) than it could help. Even in programs that actually should be gendered, it's on the institution to make the case as to why to the public. If this were in the US it'd probably be a legal Title IX violation.

You may want this if you haven't seen it (just in reference to your self described general prejudice, which I also hold):
"As I said, I cannot add much more, but I will add this. With the exception of Assistant Director Elaine De Bonis, none of the library staff are to blame for the boys only program. In fact, most if not all of the (all female but one) staff tried to persuade the Assistant Director to make it available to both genders. In fact my friend at the library advised De Bonis not to use "BOYS ONLY" wording. She refused to listen. Nor are Antoine Garwah and Lorraine Cantin, who head Science Timmins, to blame for the faults in the program either. Their position on the teaching of science has always been Science For All." - Timmins Blogger

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Are you sure about that? If that field isn't your area of expertise, can you cite an authoritative source that confirms your opinion?

I take what I read in blogs with a large grain of salt. That said, I'm sure that I would have advocated different methods too.

What I have read about this situation is that the event *wasn't* a teaching-science event. Those reports I read might have been wrong or misleading, but if they were right... that would be an important piece of information.

Blake

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I did, Title IX. A public school or library (or any other education program) receiving federal funds in the US cannot exclude people based on gender. This is no more legal in the US than labeling a public school class "boys only literacy" and not offering a girls class.

No one is arguing that students don't benefit based on individualized attention or that types of attention cannot correlate to gender. The argument is that access to attention cannot be gender-based. Under resource limitations, you make it need-based or benefit-based unless (in the US) you'd like to lose a lawsuit.

Can you share what you've read about this curriculum rather than talking around it? From what I've read it's a literacy program trying to use robotics to help keep students reading over the summer. Public libraries run many programs to help keep kids reading over the summer, and the only one I have ever seen that isn't split gender (2 programs) or co-ed is this one that uses robotics.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I was asking if you what you know about literacy for 9-12 year old students extends beyond having a personal opinion.

I have an opinion about that subject. I think my opinion is reasonably well-informed, but I also know that it's only an amateur's opinion.

You appear to have read more than I have. I know I haven't seen any copies of original documents; and until I do, I can only speculate about many things. I suppose I might come across as "talking around" what I know because I have very few hard facts, and I'm trying not to reach any strong conclusions based on hearsay or my speculations.

Blake

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Just to further stir the pot, what is the Canadian equivalent (or do they even have an equivalent)? The original case was in Canada...

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

You might have been intending to ask that question, but what you actually asked was whether Siri M had a citation for the statement of literacy not being a gendered topic. The point being made was one of law rather than of opinion. (Of course, since Timmins is not a US library, this specific piece of US legal code is not completely relevant.)

The "original documents" on the Timmins Public Library web site have been removed, but while they were there you could have seen them by clicking on the link on the first page of this thread. I don't remember whether or not they made clear the status of the program as a reading program. The TPL June 2015 newsletter is still online, with the "For Boys ONLY!" prominent on page 3. The mention of the session on the first page is admittedly somewhat ambiguous as to whether it's being included as a literacy program along with the others listed in the same paragraph.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I'll be more than a little surprised if the Title IX legislation or regulations say anything about whether or not keeping boys literacy on a par with girls literacy during ages 9-12 can be accomplished by investing equal effort into the boys and the girls.

When someone says that literacy among 9-12 year olds is not a gendered topic, I think that is what they are asserting, and I doubt Title IX contains any facts that would support the claim.

That is why I asked my question.

I believe I followed all the links that are in this thread, back when they were live. Nothing I read described the actual planned content of the program. The word "robots", or some variation of it was prominently mentioned in an announcement, but there was nothing I read that gave any more detail.

The robots might be inert action figures for all I know, or they might be pre-made motorized devices students would drive, but learn nothing about, or they might be roles that would be assigned to participants in a role-playing game, or ....

I don't recall anything that said or implied that learning about STEM was either directly, or tangentially the purpose of the program. I think many CD folks saw the word "robot" and assuming participants would be learning STEM material. That's an understandable assumption for CD readers, but as far as I can tell, we don't know if that assumption Is correct, or wildly incorrect, or somewhere in-between.

That is why I asked my question.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I got the distinct impression that Lego Mindstorm was to be featured in the session.



Here's some more information from the library by way of a local radio station:

Timmins Public Library Chair and City Councillor Mike Doody says the entire incident was an “unintentional” “miscalculation” on the staffs part.

He says, this year’s robotics program is accepting 15 children. Currently, he says they have roughly 5 applicants registered so far.

So why was Cash, a young girl, allegedly turned away from the program when there were still 10 positions available? Her mother writes on change.org that Assistant Library Director Elaine De Bonis told her it’s because Cash is a girl, and the robotics program is geared towards boys to improve their reading skills.

Mike Doody elaborates on this claim [embedded audio]

He explains, the Library’s initial focus with the robotics program was to improve boy’s literacy through reading. How? He says, by creating incentives like the Robotics Program, boys are more likely to return to the library after the program is over to read. He says the library has found that girls are more likely to come to the library then boys are – hence, they don’t need as much initiative like the Robotics Program.

Another article from a Timmins newspaper has an actual quote:

“The feeling from staff was that young boys were falling away from reading programs,” Michael Doody, Timmins Public Library Board chairman said. “So, we decided to offer the 45-minute introductory robotics session to 15 boys to keep them engaged in reading.”

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

That makes a lot more sense as to why they only had it be boys only, if it was robotics as we all know it I would certainly have a problem with it but in this case I think they were justified in discriminating as they did. (my personal opinion)

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

The content of the program is irrelevant given historical inequalities surrounding STEM education.

They could've meant to teach the boys to knit, but if the program is called "Robots - BOYS ONLY," it's problematic and, frankly, pretty idiotic.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

If you look at it from our side it does seem problematic but if you look at it from the library's side it makes sense. After all, they are trying to promote reading to boys because they feel like that is a problem that they should try to fix, they didn't want girls to take part in it because it seems that for the most part girls were more likely to go into the library than boys. Also the fact that they only had 15 seats available.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

There are better ways to do that, however.

What exactly they are may depend largely on the area around the library and what the target audience likes to do, but I would suspect that it's quite possible to find something that would attract boys in large numbers without disenfranchising girls. For example: How many kids do YOU know that would pass up a chance to earn some money by doing something that doesn't take a lot of work? Like, oh, I don't know, reading a book? An announcement that the library (or a sponsor) was offering some (reasonable) amount of money per some (reasonable) amount of books read (subject to certain possible restrictions, let's just say age-appropriate for now) would almost certainly trigger some sort of response. And if you were particularly sneaky, you put in bonuses for who reads the most.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

The key word there is sneaky. If you host that kind of event it would get people reading for the duration of the event...however there is nothing stopping the participants from staying away from the library afterword. This library wanted to get people genuinely interested in reading by hosting an event designed to attract boys, they just underestimated the outrage that that kind of discrimination causes among some people.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Just as a really, really dumb question: Why do you think that using the event that sparked the outrage would have a different effect? There is nothing stopping the participants from staying away from the library afterwards.


Some food for thought:

I haven't been to the library in quite a few years. (Other than in college--where it happened to be a favorite meeting area for small groups, as well as hosting the university computer program's repair shop.) But when I was younger, I went fairly often. And, during the summers, there was usually a kid's program of some sort on a regular basis. When I happened to go on one of the program days, one of the larger "open" areas (give or take a 15'x20' area, I think) was pretty full of kids. But when I went on any other day, there might be half a dozen kids total.

BTW, these programs included such items as the sheriff's department parking a helicopter in the library parking lot (by landing it there, and taking off at the end of the program), or a marine biologist with some sharks, or an illusionist...

Just something to think about.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

As I already said, the library wanted to get kids genuinely interested in reading rather then lure them in with money. That is not to say that it will work...it is just what they are trying to aim for.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Who says that that wasn't the goal I had in mind? Because if you say that, then I have only one thing further to say: I don't take kindly to people putting words in my mouth.

I'm going to put this very simply so we aren't talking past each other.

--Library's goal: get more kids (especially boys) genuinely interested in reading.
--Library's strategy: Get them INTO the library with some "cool" thing that the kids will be interested in. While they're there, encourage them to READ more.
--Result: ????? (Well, OK, so far there's been one big controversy... but after that's resolved, the question remains.)

The robotics class was the "cool" thing that TPL opted to use. I opted to suggest a financial incentive. Other people can come up with other things, I'm sure.

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

I heard an announcement that the "Marketplace" radio show would be running a story today about "Patching Up Kids' Summer Achievement Gap" later today, and thought of this thread. Not long from now I expect the story will be available here Marketplace' site, but it's not up yet.

Beyond what is implied by the title, I have no idea what the story will contain.

Blake

Re: Sign this petition to allow girls in robotics! (at Timmins Public library)!
 

Hopefully adding to this thread won't cause us to repeat what has already been said (hint, hint).

Instead, I'm just letting the CD world know that WAMU 88.5 radio station's Kojo Nnamdi show today contained a segment about the bigger-picture subject surrounding the specific subject of this thread.

The site described the segment with this title and description:

Gender Politics In The Classroom

The American Civil Liberties Union released a report arguing that the $20 million Empowering Males of Color Initiative at D.C. Public Schools unfairly excludes female students. Kojo looks at the DCPS initiative, and compares it to efforts in neighboring Montgomery County.

The show's website is here: Kojo Show site

I'm pretty sure that the segment will be available for download/streaming/listening shortly through either the show's site or the WAMU site.

Blake