Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Good evening CD,

I was having a conversation with a former member today and something came up that - while not shocking - did cause me to think long and hard about how I handle certain things on my team. Very often, because the students that are part of the team compete well and with gracious professionalism, I like to believe that their lives outside of the team are as innocent as they seem while at the build site.

Unfortunately, this is not always true.

While I will not say that I have a rampant problem of drug and alcohol use on my team, I also know that it would be ludicrous to believe that it does not exist at all. Further, I can list specific people and instances where I know that at least one has been in use by my high schoolers.

I think in large part many coaches attempt to turn a blind eye to these things. Because of the trust my students put in me as a coach, I am often privy to discussions about their lives that they would not bring to others. I hear of everything from relationship problems to family issues and for the most part, I believe my job is to create a safe space for students to learn and to grow in all areas of their lives.

How then, do you think that the issues of drug and alcohol abuse should be handled? Again, this is not something that is done on trips or while present with the team - it is something that happens when they go home, with their friends. My deepest concern is that some of these kids - who are often the best and brightest might simply cut their dreams short - because after all both drinking and drug use are illegal activities. One arrest could mean the loss of a scholarship and the destruction of a student's future.

Thoughts?

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Yes, getting in trouble for drug/alcohol use while underage is bad... but using underage is also pretty bad, and can easily lead to even bigger problems. The last thing any of us want to see is one of our students spiral out of control and wind up hurting themselves or others because of drug or alcohol use.

It's important for all of us to look at the schools we work with and understand their policies and procedures for these types of situations. I'm no expert on the law, but I doubt much is going to happen from a legal/police standpoint if you say "I heard so-and-so talking, and I think they were drinking last friday night" - that may depend on exactly what the law is where you live. Rather, I think you could probably take that to officials at the school and use it to leverage the student into getting help. It's a serious enough issue, I think, to warrant a discussion with the school officials so you can fully understand what would happen if you were to report suspected activity.

Personally, I hope I'm never put in that position... I know we foster a relaxed, safe atmosphere at our meetings, and the students are generally very open about things, but I've never heard even a hint of alcohol or drug use with any of my students. But it's a private catholic school, so that may not be too surprising.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Your students are doing a pretty good job of keeping their mouths shut, then.


To the OP: What exactly is the point of your post? You're not providing very many details, and you seem to have come in with a horribly biased point of view.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I don't think he meant to come off as biased or anything, just wanting to know what an FRC coach's responsibilities are when issues like this come up, and it can vary team to team depending on policies already in place either by the team or the school the team is associated with. This is one area I believe having teachers on the team are super beneficial. They deal with this kind of stuff all the time, and as we know, in general, "engineers aren't good at dealing with people." A lot of coaches tend to turn a blind eye because they don't want it to be their "fault" if a student gets in trouble.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

WHAT I POST BELOW IS MENT TO BE INFORMATIONAL, ON WHAT I HAVE EXPERICED OVER THE YEARS. It does not reflect my teams.

I agree with T^2. Your students are really good at keeping their mouths shut. I look at it from this angle. Two of my teams are based out of the school that I went to. It too, is a private Christian school. The amount of "secret" drug and alcohol use at the school was horrible when I was a Jr. and Sr. Our school also had/has a strict, no smoking policy, but I can tell you that half of my graduating class started freshman/sophomore year, underage. At my school, we jokingly referred to it as "Rich kids, better drugs." Horrible, I know. It exists, don't turn a blind eye to it just because you are at a private school.

And I know it still exists at school, as graduating team members have told me.

In my FRC team, I am one of the younger mentors of the group. Most of the students know that they can come to me and discuss things that they are having problems with, including anything listed above. Personally, I would have loved to have a mentor close to my age for that reason. FIRST is not just all about robots, it's also about making a better person, as we all know.

I agree though with the people above, that you really need to look at how the school would handle it.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I was trying to figure out what my thoughts on this are, but I honestly think I may still be too close to the college culture of drinking. In my high school and college years the fact that someone was into drinking or did (relatively mundane) drugs tended to have very little to do with their success in school or in life later. What mattered had more to do with the amount they drank/used, the frequency, and if they developed an addiction or had the kind of personality that might fall victim to an addictive lifestyle. Determining if drugs or alcohol are going to have a negative effect on someone's life can be very hard to judge unless you know the person very well.

That said, alcohol in particular is treated in a very unhealthy way in American culture. While high school students of other countries have much more access to alcohol, typically the cultural pressures around it are much less "you can't drink often so you better get drunk". Catching those unhealthy tendencies and showing students healthy ways to treat alcohol is, I think, a very useful thing for adults to do.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Alcohol is a drug.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

In a nearby affluent community: I was approached by a local community member to help start an FRC team specifically to give students some way to do something constructive and well-being building specifically to help reduce the number of students dying from drug overdoses.

Problem with 'rich kids = better drugs' they get powerful drugs from the same pool of illegal drugs as poor kids. Drug dealers are not obligated to quality standards. So you know what you really have: 'rich kids = more potent drugs = more likely to die from overdose'.

I don't drink.
I don't smoke.
I don't use illegal drugs.

It's not my job to judge those that do - but I have seen the wreckage in my family from these habits and I'll leave you to wonder how bad it can get to avoid even a little - even once.

There are actually several things you can eat that will show up on a drug test:
For example a large quantity of poppy seeds.
So depending on how sensitive one is to the idea of drug exposure: depends on how far you want to go with abstinence.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I don't think the question is "Are drugs bad?" Everyone agrees drugs are bad and rich communities are just as susceptible to drug problems as poor communities.

The question here is "What should FIRST mentors do it they know their students are making bad decisions?" This is an important question to answer, because, for the most part, mentors are volunteers who may or may not have experience dealing with kids, yet kids look up to them and listen to their advice. Should mentors kick drug users off the team? Give them a strong talking? Report them to the school or police? Ignore it completely? I don't have the answer, but CD as a community probably does.

As a student who does not use drugs, I don't know what I would do if I were in the mentor's shoes, but I am interested in what CD's consensus is.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

For those teams that are affiliated with a school, I would recommend alerting the team's faculty advisor of the situation. That person can deal with the legal ramifications in a professional manner.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I completely agree with your statement here. Its completely true. Unfortunately, there are the kids that don't understand that, and still experiment with the drugs and alcohol.

I too, don't want to judge, and is a reason I look at my past to help:
I have not used illegal drugs.
I smoked through my high school years. AND Quit.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Source?

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

You actually want to dispute that the more powerful a drug the more carefully you must control purity and dosing? If you like I'll get a friend of mine who is the head pharmacist for several hospitals to address it for you or any of my doctor friends.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...se-purity.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...g-addicts.html

With the deepest of respects for the recent losses:

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...drug-overdose/

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Two things that seem too important not to point out are:
Even with a minor situation involving something prohibited, especially drugs, the publicity that can generate will likely spiral out of control. The complicated politics of society and organizations today pretty much guarantee that even the best team or organization is going to have someone willing to exploit bad news...and the sensationalism of today's media jumps right on the mud-slinging bandwagon. (1) The existence of the team could be threatened - a sponsoring organization might dissolve the team in response to appear like they are addressing the situation...or because their insurance carrier requires it, or it could so adversely affect contributions as to dry up all funding. And (2) the mentors of the team could face dire circumstances such as loss of employment and possibly be part of criminal investigations for not being more forthcoming with information.

It is very important to have an up-front, no exceptions policy about how you are going to handle these kinds of situations (and a policy that conforms to whatever requirements your organization has for the situation). Tell your students that you will help them in any way possible, but a mentor's responsibility to the team and the mentor's own liability may prevent them from being the kind of friend to share all secrets with.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I'd like to see a credible source that states the rich people are more likely to die of overdose than poor people.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Madison, I don't think that this shouldn't even be in discussion. :(

I only used the "Rich kids, better drugs" reference in comparison from Private to Public school, in the use of drugs. And that drugs exist EVERYWHERE, no matter how blind some may want to look at it.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I don't think we all agree drugs are bad[1]. I may be the oddball here but I think that if adults, aware of the risks of a substance, choose to partake in it that is those people's business.

However, I also believe in the rule of law, so I disagree with partaking in illegal substances. I do not, always, agree said substances should be illegal. But I encourage folks to follow the law and work within it to change it.

[1] In fact, many drugs are life saving and beneficial. (Notably those classified outside of Schedule I)

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

It's an interesting argument she's trying to make:

Basically she's arguing that because studies show that people in lower income areas. Often highly population dense urban areas (which is often ignored in those studies). Are more likely to die from overdoses of an unspecified drug that somehow rich kids are less at risk.

I've had a rich kid, who has since died from drug use, explain that to me once before.
I am sure these studies are of little comfort to that family.

Yes people who have 'nothing to loose' tend to engage in riskier behavior.
I just lost a friend last year much along those lines - in his case his risk was scuba diving.
He was pretty well off and it all fell apart, and whether it has really fallen apart or you just think it has, is really irrelevant once you go too far.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Responding to OP, I think what you should do is make sure they understand 3 things: inherent risks, potential consequences, and safe practices. It sounds like you are most concerned for their safety, and talking to them one on one as a mentor about how to go about their business in a safe way will do a lot of good. If you are especially concerned, I would go to the parents first and see if they can help resolve the problem before you go to the school. I think if you go to the school they'll come down hard and the student's chances for scholarships, etc. will be hurt.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

so is caffeine. "drugs" are generally treated differently by law (IE being entirely illegal except in a few states), while alcohol is legal once a person turns 21, or under religious rules, or with parental permission on personal property.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Dang, you beat me by one post. But I would say instead that caffeine is an addictive drug. Also the drinking age in the USA is 18 at the federal level, but is 21 at the state level because all the states want their tax money for road work.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I made no argument, actually -- I simply asked to see a source that corroborates your affirmation that "rich kids = more potent drugs = more likely to die from overdose"

If, in fact, people of lower economic status are more likely to die of overdose, those who aren't a member of that population are undeniably at lower risk. They are not at zero risk, of course, but their risk is lower when compared to the population as a whole.

If you want to address a problem, the first step should be understanding the problem and sorting out the facts from hearsay.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

It's still interesting but you ignored what I pointed out:
The studies that show those statistics ignore population density.

So yes: let's sort out facts from study statistics that lack important pieces of data.

Or as I like to joke the magnitude of falsehoods: lies...dang lies...statistics...datasheets
A datasheet in the hands of person without comprehensive knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Statistics are just as bad - cause all you need to do is accept the conclusion and ignore the critical thinking.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

This thread is getting off-topic, and I think it is important that we bring it back to finish addressing this important issue. Whether your school is full of students literally made of money (yes, I mean they are anthropomorphic dollar bills) or there isn't a single student in your school with a roof over their head, the problem of drug abuse on FIRST teams still exists and we as a community need to decide how to deal with it.

From the perspective of a student, I would argue that mentors should only report the student to the school administration or police if they thought the student was in danger or they seriously believed that they and the student's parents would not be able to sway the student. Otherwise, I would recommend talking to the student first, and then the student's parents if that doesn't work. Being arrested for minor drug abuse (which is what would happen if they were reported to the administration or police) can ruin an otherwise stellar student's record and obliterate any possibility of college acceptance, scholarships, jobs, etc. I think that should be a last resort.

As to concerns about the program losing funding or sponsorships due to students' drug abuse, I would argue that, as long as the drug abuse does not occur at team meetings (which I certainly hope it doesn't), the school cannot blame the team for the mis-decisions of its members. As long as the administration cannot prove that mentors knew about students' drug abuse and failed to act on their knowledge, the program should not be liable for students' mistakes.

So in summary:

• Talk to the student and their parents first
• Only report students if there is no hope
• Don't be stupid about not reporting students
• Kids, don't be stupid; don't do drugs

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Sorry -- it was hard to parse your original text. You strung together three things fragments that aren't sentences.

I'm not sure why population density is a relevant metric here. If I'm asked to address the problem of drug overdoses and I have limited resources, I'm going to try to help the largest number of people I can -- and it seems to me that the largest number of people affected by this problem are less affluent; it doesn't really matter where they live.

Edit:
To relate this to my team so as to make the content seem more "on topic" -- My team has a tremendous disparity in socioeconomic status across the student population. We serve students from the inner-city alongside those from the most affluent suburbs in Washington. If I were to focus my attention on the rich kids because I was under the impression that those students are at greater risk, I'd be failing to do the best possible job I could and entirely because of bad information. I don't know how you can possibly discuss how to address a problem if you don't even understand it.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Correct, but Alcohol is a depressant, a drug that greatly inhibits the body function. There's a reason it has a surgeon general's warning on every container.

I really don't want to get into a debate in a thread that has already been derailed. While controversial, the OP brought to question a very important topic. For the most part it has been ignored and turned into a Health Class argument.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

All opinions with in this post are my personal opinions and are independent of the my team.

As a student I have seen other students* get into trouble with substances such as alcohol and other illegal drugs. It is my personal belief that if a student confides with a mentor about issues pertaining to drugs and alcohol, a mentor should work with the student to create a safe environment to get help. That said I also understand the risk a team can get into if issues arise with their school(s) and/or sponsoring organization(s).

I can only speak to what is know of my area from both rumor (which I take with a grain of salt) and policies which i have personally read. That said I know that my team is treated like a sports team in terms of a zero tolerance for substances.

What I am try to say here is that I personally believe that mentors should try to help students who come to them with substance problems in a way that gets students the help they need with out damaging the students future potential. At the same time they should try to keep the team as a whole in mind.




*(none have been associated with our team)

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

So you are going to address their poverty or their lack of hope (which as a drug alcohol can magnify)?
Cause that's the proposed cause of the socio-economic aspect of drug overdoses.

Or

Are you planning to address the consequence of drug use?

Interestingly enough - my original post stated someone asked me to address the lack of hope issue via creating an FRC team and that was for local to me affluent students. An undeniable fact.

So the point I am trying to make (not be ignored here) is that you in an FRC team are hypothetically already doing something about a contributing cause of the problem by giving those students access to education - both book and vocational and a positive environment which creates hope. Not to mention financial assistance in the form of the scholarships available through FIRST participation.

So if I were to follow your line here - you would only profile those from the at risk for the end result of drug use - not for the at risk for lack of hope (seeing the positive aspects of your future oddly kind of favors a median income - as seen by studies of what incomes bring the most happiness and notice the overlap of the average engineering salaries and the most happy salaries?)

Again statistics can be very dangerous.
We should statistically analyze how many people die from the improper application of statistics daily.
Hopefully there's some inspiration there (because that might lead someone to think there is some value in the effort).

BTW - population density matters because socio-economically if you cram a lot of people (and their problems and consequential lack of hope) into a smaller and smaller place it's very likely to be a contagious problem. While, on the other hand, if you separate the social human animal further and further apart you can run into the isolation side effects that can lead to sociological issues to the individual. So it really does matter if you are living on top of each other in some projects rather than in houses with a little separation.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I don't think my opinion strays too far from many engineer's views on the issue, but i'll voice it anyway.

If it's not occurring during FRC related junctions I say that it's not an immediate concern of the team.

THAT SAID, if a student or mentor appears to be negatively suffering at the hand of these chemicals it wouldn't hurt for some individuals to talk to them about it and show concern\offer aid. Sometimes all it takes to cure these addictions is the reminder that one is wanted and loved.

It should definitely not be occurring at competition/build season, but if you think about it much of the medication that big pharma shovels into todays youth isn't far off from a lot of the recreational drugs these students could be (and sometimes are) taking. A handful of students on teams in FRC are on prescribed pharmaceutical amphetamine, and yes it does put them at an advantage over those students not on them. Just something to chew on.

If it's just hearsay, I would let it handle itself until it becomes a blatant issue. Self control is best learned through trial and error.

Either way, US drug policy needs a massive overhaul and I think we're starting to see that. The best cure for addiction and reckless behavior is love and kindness, not ham-fisted rules and lectures.

\End hippy-activist rant.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I think some others have brought up the issue of liability. We could be putting ourselves at risk if a parent or school were to find out that we had knowledge of illegal student activity and turned a blind eye. Hiding or not reporting crimes is taken very seriously.

I think the focus of this post was about what one should do, both ethically and legally, when students are illegally abusing substances. Taking recommended doses of amphetamines is in a different class of concern from kids getting high or drunk (which is, I think, the point of this post).

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

There is another wrinkle to this that perhaps should be considered:

There actually (and sadly) exists the chance that the supplier of said illegal substance is an employee of an educational institution:
A fair example might be steroids.

I am not sure there's a perfect right answer - you might turn in one kid (maybe that protects them and maybe it does not) - and the problem will continue to grow until you get to the dealer and those covering for them.

I do agree with the others - if you have direct evidence of illegal substance abuse you should not cover that up - just be sure you follow it up till it gets dealt with.



Also - now that I am done with my work schedule I can link some documents in relation to the previous requests, though again the risk I see here is that at the core statistics can be abused:

1:
"Income distribution and risk of fatal drug overdose in New York City neighborhoods"

Be sure to note this:
"The relation between income distribution and mortality has been controversial (Wagstaff and van Doorslaer, 2000; Mackenbach, 2002). Although studies in the early 1990s demonstrated this relation in a number of ecologic studies, later work suggested that this effect was due to the relation between income (Osler et al., 2002) or education (Muller, 2002) and mortality. Other multilevel studies failed to demonstrate an association between area-level income distribution and mortality (Fiscella and Franks, 1997)."

2:
This is also relevant but I can't find a reasonable public source for it:
"Depressive symptoms, negative urgency and substance use initiation in adolescents"

"Depression levels are associated with lifetime use of a variety of substances in early adolescence and targeting this risk factor with preventive efforts may be useful in reducing risk. Negative urgency may be an important target for interventions aimed at alcohol and inhalant use."

3:
So what about income versus depression:
"Depression and socio-economic risk factors: 7-year longitudinal population study"

"Conclusions The study showed a clear relationship between worsening socio-economic circumstances and depression."

"All coefficients are bivariate and controlled only for the inverse Mill’s ratio. An increase of subjective financial strain (e.g. from ‘with difficulty’ to ‘with great difficulty’) or in deprivation was associated with statistically significant changes in both depression score and the likelihood of being a case of major depression. Becoming poor resulted in a statistically significant increase in depression score (but not in cases of major depression). Increase in income or becoming unemployed were associated neither with a change in depression score nor with a change in cases of major depression. Changing civic participation was associated with lower depression score only, to a statistically significant degree. Change in living arrangements was associated with change in both depression score and change in cases of major depression."

Which to the point - bad things happen to people 'with money' to.
How much is 'with money' to you?
Sometimes people hear that people like doctors make $250k and think wow - I'd never have a worry.
Take a look at their student loan payments each month and you can see where it can go.

Let's add this cause I turned it up on Google out of curiosity:

4:
Towards the point I made above. Remember that doctors don't start out making $250k.
They make very little during residency and still have access to the pharmacy:
"The Secret World of Drug-Addict Doctors"

5:
Mentions income versus overdoses in a graph for Washington State:
"Drug Abuse and Overdose"

6:
Reinforcing the reason that long term drug use as mentioned in the previous links, in particular with relation to heroine, has cumulative negative impacts on health.
"How heroin kills you"

7:
Cumulative health impacts can feed back into depression (or vice versa) (see #2, 3 and 6 for the reason this is here):
"The Relationship Between Mental and Physical Health"

All rights, trademarks and ownership of the linked documents are acknowledged by this post.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Regardless of when in the year drug/alcohol abuse occur, the user's socioeconomic status, the type of school, or their membership on the team and our roles alongside them (students, mentors, teachers, etc), and frankly regardless of what the law is or should be, we as teammates need to ensure that fellow members of our team are acting responsibly and taking care of themselves, driven not by an obligation or legal requirement, but out of the compassion we all share for each other.

While many people subscribe to the idea that whatever people do on their own time is their own business, I cannot support that sentiment. Recently, I endured a great personal loss at the hands of substance abuse, and anybody else who has had a similar experience realizes that the ramifications of one's actions inevitably affect more than the individual. No matter who the person is on our team, whether it be a mentor or student, We as team members have a responsibility to ensure the safety of every member of our team. Sometimes this may be difficult, and I know that this is a bit of a derailment from the question of "What do I do?" to "Should I do something?" but the answer to the latter is yes, you should do something.

Figuring what to do is a bit trickier, as team dynamics vary and depend on who is addressing whom, but regardless, there are some key points that should always be included. The first is to approach the individual openly, and make it clear that you are addressing them because you are concerned for them, not because you are concerned that they are breaking a rule or law. Second, be compassionate and willing to listen, always trying to further your understanding of the situation. Finally, you are not alone. The individual undoubtedly has other friends or family, as do you, who likely share your concern. Talking together about the issue and deciding as a group how to approach a very subjective problem is always a good course of action. Most importantly, you have to do something, because if you don't, the consequences can be among the most horrible that there are.

Disclaimer: I have not had any sort of experience like this on my team. I speak from other areas of my life separate from robotics on this topic. I neither condone nor partake in the consumption of illegal drugs.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I am confident that a few of our student team members have used alcohol and/or illicit drugs. The practical line is that we expect the team members (mentors included) to show up ready to compete - which means clear-headed and at least decently rested (though that slips a bit in February!). We have sent kids home from build sessions because "you need sleep more than the team needs you like this". By requiring this, I believe that we have inspired a number of students to change their drug habits. Some have cut out (or at least down on) illicit drugs. At least one began taking his prescribed meds more reguarly. I understand that another got his doctor to change his meds to something that suppresses the symptoms of his medical issue without also suppressing his intellect.

Our of our usually unstated goals is to inspire clean living. In some cases we even place this above inspiring science and technology. Transforming the culture for the better is the real bottom line.

Individuals with the fortitude to change bad habits are inspirational. They often prove to be good leaders.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

And meth and Nicotine are stimulants, yet still classified as drugs :deadhorse:

Back on track: In most circumstances I could not, in all good conscience, get a kid in trouble for confiding in me about drinking or doing drugs or whatever. (s)He obviously trusts me if they're telling me about it, and I shouldn't break that trust, especially if it's a case of "there was alcohol at a party and I kinda got pressured into having some after I was curious as to what it tasted like." That being said, there are times when it would need to be addressed in some form. if a kid is addicted, action needs to be taken, and how they're dealing with that addiction may play a part in that (someone who comes to a teacher knowing they have a problem vs someone openly bragging about sneaking beer to an FRC event). This is an opinion coming from a student(ish, graduated this year) perspective



agreed

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

This is the key to me. As a student and as a mentor, I care about all the members of my team. I want them to lead long and successful lives, by whatever standards are important to them.

As a student, I was well aware that there were students that had a relatively large pot habit on my team. I'm also pretty sure some of the mentors at least were aware of this-- but these students were also nearly straight A students, contributed in all sorts of ways to the team, and have gone on to have successful college and professional careers. It's quite clear that their recreational drug use wasn't negatively affecting them (or the team, or those around them), and I personally don't see any issue letting that pass.

That being said, I also went to a different high school my junior and senior years that had all sorts of issues with recreational drug use, and I have a side of my family with a history of substance abuse and depression, which has lead to all sorts of personal, professional, and legal issues. Were someone in a similar situation that I was aware of on my team, I'd definitely be talking to them and trying to get them help.

I'm definitely not saying that students all partake in responsible ways, but I tend to play it very, very cautiously when approaching sensitive situations without having had personal conversations with those involved, and this issue certainly counts as sensitive. Unless there is a clear and present danger (either legal or medical) to the team member or members involved, I'd avoid going to school or legal authorities.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Just for the sake of the question, would you be prepared to face legal consequences for not reporting it?

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Drinking alcohol is a tricky issue for minors, the law is not quite cut and dry:
http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_lif...h-parents.html

Schools might have additional obligations that create penalties.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Question: Asimov's Zeroth Law.

What I'm getting at is the following scenario, which may present a clear and present danger to the team.

Team member admits to team mentor that team member uses "controlled substances" recreationally. Appropriate governing law/policy (of any governing jurisdiction, including school) states that if said mentor knows and does not report, they are in big trouble (if caught later).

The big problem there, as a mentor, would be this: Reporting saves mentor's employment, involvement with team, possibly even the team--but betrays a trust. Failing to report preserves the trust... but at the risk of severely damaging the team, if not destroying it.


To be honest, this isn't an easy question. I speak from painful experience--let's just let it go at that.


Also, to be honest, if I was in that position, I would probably encourage the student to talk to someone who I'd be obliged to report it to--many times, facing the consequences is better than avoiding them, and in this case could save a life. (And, I'd also be looking for places that can provide help.)

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

And this was pretty much the way this was handled on my old team. The discipline policy was that behavior against the team's code of conduct (which was a contract signed by the team member and their parent) should be told to our faculty advisor, who would handle any appropriate discipline. This was a pretty good system for the team, considering that our faculty advisor was almost universally trusted and admired by the students and mentors of the team. I'm sure there are many issues that I was not aware of that went by him, and I know that he helped numerous students who were suffering from depression or anxiety while on the team.

I'm personally very concerned for my current team, which serves low income students and doesn't have a very good connection to our school. I have very little legal knowledge, but I'm pretty sure the arrangement on 2220 was relatively safe legally for the team (given that our mentor was enforcing school policy), while my current team really has no good/safe way of handling a problematic situation like this.

Thank you to this thread for helping me realize that the mentors on my team need to have a discussion about handling these situations.

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that is a tough question. I'm not sure

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

What kind of legal consequences are you thinking of?

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

That rather depends on the jurisdiction, I think. "Contributing to delinquency of a minor" is one that could be used on the upper end of the scale (for failing to try to stop the activities). The lower end includes the typical standard "violation of organization policy" penalties. Exactly what gets applied--and who it's applied to--is going to be dependent on both the case and who's applying the legal consequences.

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My team has never had any members who have done illegal drugs or alcohol *well, as far as I know as a student*. An important to note however: is that our school has a special policy for kids caught using drugs or alcohol. Rather than removing all scholarship chances or sending them to jail, students are first given some counseling and a warning. Only if the issue continues are actions, that could really hurt their future, taken.

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Ok all,

The truth is that in most states, drug and alcohol abuse are not considered mandatory reporting items for teachers. The only mandatory reporting required is if 1) a student tells you about an abusive situation or they plan to hurt themselves or others.

We are not required to report on drug or alcohol usage so long as it does not happen while a student is under our purview of control. In other words, unless the individual school has a specific rule that directs teachers otherwise, it is left to our discretion.

The reason I brought the whole topic up in the first place was to start a discussion about an issue that without a doubt is part of our students. Yes, statistically, our kids will be involved in both drug and alcohol abuse. It doesn't matter what type of school you go to or how clean you think your kids are...some are struggling. Let's ignore the arguments of whether drugs and alcohol are inherently bad or benign...what I do know is that we need to have a conversation about this stuff with all of our students and team members, you need to be aware that you also need to watch for the danger of abuse from among your teammates. Hopefully your team has a policy, if not, one needs to be developed.

Thank you.

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Good subject.

We of course have a strict policy prohibiting participation in team activities by anyone intoxicated (whether via alcohol or drugs, student or mentor is not specified) and this is grounds for dismissal.

Of course, having this policy means that any drug or alcohol use is not discussed (and certainly not with me). In practice no-one has ever been dismissed from the team for this reason. This is not to say that there is and has never been any drug or alcohol use on the team, but it discourages obvious intoxication.

The rule exists primarily for safety reasons. My greatest nightmare as an FRC Head Mentor is to have someone injured in the course of team activities. Intoxication clearly increases risk of injury.

We do have students and mentors using prescription drugs. Sometimes I know about these; sometimes I do not. We have no team policies relating to the appropriate use of prescription drugs, although some have psychoactive effects. With students (and parents) open about their prescriptions and effects, we have worked to either schedule dosages or schedule work to minimize the impact.

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It really doesn't depend on the bad decision specifically: They could be snorting coke, or using the chopsaw wrong: You mentor them so they at least understand why it is wrong, what is correct, and your very clear expectation and insistence they do it correctly. No, you can't prevent everything, and it is there if you look carefully. But you are an influencer: Use it for good.
Indeed.

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This is definitely an interesting topic that as we have seen, each person has their own view. I think it is important to get student's points of view in a situation like this.

I think it is important to look at what the definition of a "mentor" is.
It's important to look at the word "trusted" here.

Hypothetically, if I were in this situation, as a student, where I had an experience with drugs or alcohol, not to the point where it was a problem affecting my health or well being, and told a mentor about it, it would be because I had a considerable amount of trust for the mentor I was speaking to. With that amount of trust in a mentor I would expect that they would keep it confidential and provide support to me. Not necessarily reporting it to school officials or parents. If they were to immediately do that, report it to school officials or parents, I feel it would ruin the relationship and trust I had with that mentor.

I also understand there is the debate of when a mentor becomes too close to a student, and that something like this my be considered "too" close. I also believe that it is up to the individual mentor to decide what they would do in a situation like this and when to decide that the situation needs to be reported to someone else for the safety and well being of the student. Either way, it is up to the individual mentor of what they see fit. I am just trying to show a students perspective of this.

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It would not be prudent to ignore that this is a fact in our schools today. We must do what we can to be a good example as well as a good mentor. While our students must register for the Robotics "class" and are graded for their activity, we are still governed by the district Co-Curricular Code. http://www.d214.org/co-curricular/co-curricular-code/
This policy applies basically 24 hours a day and is in full force while we travel and compete. We remind students and parents at every opportunity and especially prior to travel. Any failure to comply gets you a trip home at your own expense and all of the consequences outlined in the code. What is more important though in my mind, is reiterating that a seemingly simple mistake has long term effects. As most members of FRC teams are on track to attend good schools and/or are interning at sponsor locations, a simple slip could halt all further opportunity. Yes, it is very hard to say "no" or to walk away when approached, but all of our students have taken the hard step to be on an FRC team. That gives them the extra bit of confidence and intestinal fortitude to at least resist the temptation when it does occur.

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(Speaking as a "mentor" to younger friends in the like)

I (and my wife) have had to deal with this before... somebody who'se getting into the vices and the authorities (their over-punishing parents) aren't going to actually fix the root problem.

It's a fine line... On one hand you love them and want them to suceed in life, on the other, you don't want to tolerate immoral/illegal behavior. It's a fine line to walk. Where the line is, well, it depends on the person and relationship to the mentor. Sometimes you don't know where it is. It's a struggle; at least I (and others) can know that by caring in the first place, we've made the first step.

(Note- if there is a formal policy over one's head, that changes things, rules are rules).

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My two cents...

We are mentors but primarily with regards to the use of technology, the pursuit of technical careers, work ethic, team participation, leadership - all the things that make a FRC team work. I think a mentor should refrain from sharing opinions about drug or alcohol use, legalization etc with students. We certainly should not be drinking or using in their presence.

It is not that I think one thing or another is evil but these are parental domains. If a mentor thinks a student has a drug or alcohol problem, tell the parents in confidence. If a mentor witnesses drug or alcohol usage during "team time" or in "team areas", tell the teachers involved. Teachers are the only ones with the authority to take any kind of action. Teams aligned with schools generally have to follow the school guidelines, not to do so risks the relationship between the team and the school (perhaps the very existence of the team).

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For you students reading this thread I have a quick story for you...

My dear cousin was a scratch golfer and a catcher looking at multiple offers from D-1 schools. He went to a EOY party in 1976 and smoked some treated reefer, called killer weed at the time, handed to him by a friend. He was not a habitual drinker or drug user. The next morning he woke up a different person and has been institutionalized to this day almost 40 years later. Whatever was sprayed on what he smoked triggered a psychotic breakdown - happens more often than you think.

Don't let anyone tell you there is zero risk.

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I know what you're trying to say, but I've had discussions with my students before about legalization and why there are proponents and opponents. Part of me being a mentor is to educate my students on what is going on in the world, and giving them an opportunity to be curious in an environment they won't be ridiculed or prosecuted. It's also been in the larger context of politics and not specifically a conversation about drugs.

Unfortunately, this is not always an option that is available. Some teams like mine are urban teams serving lower socioeconomic communities where typical family structures, for some students, may not really exist.

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I would actually disagree with that first statement, and have a story to explain why.


My Junior year at the National competition in Atlanta, Friday night was one of our younger mentors' birthday. He wanted to go to a restaurant with a couple mentors and students who he was friendly with and have a good time. Being a young guy, he decided that Hooters was exactly where he wanted to have his birthday dinner. Later that night we would have to answer to our head mentor about whether or not Hooters was a fit place for a bunch of young adolescent boys on a field trip, but that's beside the point.

We got to the restaurant, ordered our wings and food, and the two mentors got some beers. This didn't strike me as odd at all, every single time I had gone to a restaurant with my parents or parents' friends they had gotten alcohol. Alcohol, at this point in my life, was a means for adults to get tipsy and have a good time. And adults having beers was always followed by some light stumbling, overloud talking, and occasional swervy driving. Drinking beer and getting drunk sounded like a very exciting adult activity and it was very not cool that the law told me I couldn't do it.

While eating, the birthday boy was made to get on a table and hula hoop with a couple of the waitresses (don't worry, he did so graciously and professionally), songs were sung, music was played, and we had a great time just talking and hanging out. What did strike me as odd though was that there was no light stumbling, no obnoxious talking, and certainly no swervy driving. Each of the adults had only had a beer or two and then stopped. No big pitchers or weird mixed drinks. Just two beers.

We walked back to the hotel through downtown talking about tomorrow's matches and the fact that we had secretly recorded the young mentor hula hooping exploits. We weren't a drunk group wandering home. We were two mentors and three high schoolers on an amazing robotics trip. Those mentors showed me alcohol in a context where it wasn't used as a means to an end. Sure I had seen people drinking casually on TV and movies, but it is entirely different to see strangers doing something and then to see two people that you respect immensely doing it. They were done mentoring me on fabrication, math, and design that night and instead mentored me, unintentionally I think, on life.


I hope that one of these days I can have a similar effect on a student on my team. Though I may have to pick a place other than Hooters to save our administration some headache. I hear there is a nice alternative now anyway :D

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While it's great that responsible use can provide a good, worthwhile example for someone like monochron, someone else may take away from it that it's ok to drink with dinner every night, and that impression may lead to problems down the road. Better, in my personal opinion, is to show the students that it's possible for adults to go out and have a good time without any alcohol. They may assume you occasionally drink, but having the example of not drinking when it's available may go a longer way.

That said, I don't really think it's in the job description of a mentor to attempt to educate students on anything other that what we're there for - inspiration and recognition of science and technology. It's not my job at meetings to lecture kids about alcohol use, or talk about politics, or or anything else that may be controversial. It's to show them that engineering is fun, and that it exists largely outside of all those other concerns. Focus on what we're there for, and when necessary refer the students to the appropriate individuals employed by the school.

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It is true that both of those lessons are good ones. I don't think your suggestion would have had much of an affect on me because I had seen these mentors have a good time before. We had eaten dinner before and had seen my parents enjoy themselves without alcohol. What the night showed me was that alcohol can be used in moderation (something I didn't fully comprehend at the time) rather than alcohol isn't necessary (something that I had already seen many times in my life).

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I'm coming to this party pretty late, but here's my two cents.

First, I suppose I don't know the full circumstances, but I really doubt that there's anything approaching addition here. Most kids will try alcohol or pot at some point in their lives, and for many, the first time they try substances will be in high school. For the vast majority of cases, this will mean social drinking or smoking. Not great, but very different from a full fledged addiction.

I'm not an expert on this kind of incident, especially with respect to how it works with school policy. So, the following is just opinion. Also, I will explicitly say that my thoughts in no way reflect the views of any team I have ever been affiliated with. In fact, I suspect many on those teams would actively disagree with me.

That said...

Circumstances to intervene:

• Addiction: If you actually suspect there is some kind of addiction at work, it should be your duty both as mentor and a friend to become involved. That said, my guess is that it is unlikely addiction is at work here.
• At work sessions/competitions: If teammates are using at work sessions or at competitions, the team will likely become liable to some degree. This would have huge repercussions for everyone on the team. In addition, the concept of teenagers operating machine tools or robots in any state of impairment is so terrifying, I don't even want to think about it.
• Team vs. personal: If you suspect that the substance use is becoming a thing associated with a team vs with an individual (IE, robotics kids all go out to smoke together, vs one or two happen to smoke with other friends) than you should intervene. Robotics should not become an activity associated with drugs.
• Repeated incidents: If this is an issue more than once or twice, it brings up major concerns, especially with regards to point one.
• Role models: If team role models are creating a culture where drinking is a cool thing that older kids get to do, it needs to be stopped.

Circumstances to talk to team members, but not immediately involve admin/parents/police:

• Isolated incident: If a senior has a beer for the first time with friends at a party, this probably isn't something that concerns the team too much. Perhaps if it comes to the mentors attention, it warrants a friendly conversation from a mentor about the importance of responsible drinking, but it probably shouldn't have enormous repercussions for the individual or the team. If it isn't regular or repeated use, (I would argue) it likely isn't a problem.

And that's the list. I'd argue that the circumstances where drastic intervention is not required are very specific, but also that those circumstances encompass the vast majority of cases in high school.

These situations deserve to be taken very seriously. A mistake on a mentors part can have dire consequences. We certainly don't want valued and loved team members to destroy their lives because no one thought it was there place to intervene. As many of us have, I have had personal experience with people going down this path. On the other hand, as a mentor you could essentially ruin a teenagers future by reporting them for what might just be one mistake. Scholarships and admissions offers would likely disappear, they might lose their job, and they could be kicked out of school. It is your clear duty to consider whether or not this is in their best interests.

I don't envy your decision. It's easy to draw black and white lines on the internet, and hard to deal with grey areas in real life. But I beg you to consider the consequences your decision will have, either way. This could very will effect their entire future.

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I am glad to see this topic being discussed.

First let me start by saying that it is a topic very important to me. I have never done an illegal drug in my life. However, I often visit the graves of close friends who I lost due to either the drugs themselves or the world of crap that seems to always come with them. Yes, I am aware that light use does not always get to be so dramatic. However, sometimes it does.

Also I am an engineer who used to be a counselor. I have a Masters in Counseling and have dealt with this topic on a professional level as well as a personal one.

I am not about to tell everyone how to handle it. This is a messy and a messed up situation to find yourself in.

What I do want to stress to everyone:
No one is ever alone when dealing with drugs.
This includes the user and the one they come to. If you do not know what to do you can ask a counselor (school or otherwise) in confidentiality for guidance. Don't be a hero (it never works). Don't be a Lone Ranger. Make use of the trained professionals that are there for you.

And the hardest lesson sometimes is that you may not be able to help.

Edited for typos.

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I commend you for your involvement and concern for the students. But with respect we are technical and team mentors, not "big brother" types. The "opportunity to be curious" is better limited to robotics. We should abide by the rules of the schools involved, FIRST YPP and expectations of parents. Of course there are exceptions but we should be teaching how to be part of a team, to use math, to use tools etc. Everything else is the domain of parents.

Understood but someone who can make a difference must be told.

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With respect this is not a duty for technical mentors, especially not younger mentors. After you have raised a couple teenagers you gain necessary perspective. This is the sole domain of teachers and parents. We mentors are not supposed to act as "confidential" older friends. Most mentors do not know the big picture, at least parents and the school administration can attempt to handle things in a way best for the student.

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Wow - for us such behavior gets the student a suspension and the mentors banned. We would have no choice in the matter.

And as a parent I think this is disrespectful. If I want my son to go to Hooters, I'll take him (and suffer the divorce later).

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Legal drinking age being 18 in Qc, Canada, kids on their senior year are old enough. I guess it's a matter of perspective :D

It's not a shame to admit that I had a beer with some mentors and other seniors while working on the robot! (not working with dangerous tools, duh :rolleyes:)

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Are you admitting that you drove drunk during high school and are brushing it off as something lighthearted?

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To be frank, I don't really think this is something to be proud of. I'm struggling to think of work that you could do on / with the robot that isn't potentially more dangerous with altered judgement and reaction time.

---

To respond to the thread in general: I don't really think it's appropriate for mentors to be bringing up the subject at robotics at all. There's no real value to be gained from telling drinking stories, talking about personal alcohol use, discussing the pros/cons of legalization politics, etc. at robotics. It's not the time or the place for such discussions. It's too easy to forget the strong influence some mentors can have on some students; all of our actions and stories may inform a student's future decisions. We've got more important things to be doing with our time. Of course, there may be situations where students see you as a trusted adult and ask questions out of curiosity. I'm not saying you need to lie to your students and say you've never had a sip of beer in your life, but it seems most appropriate to keep conversations on the subject brief and professional.

I don't have much to add on the subjects of drug use on the team or addiction, other than to reiterate what has already been said: Compassion, empathy, and understanding are absolutely vital to helping individuals struggling with addiction. While professional help should be sought as these issues are well above our pay grades, it's important that you don't abandon people when they may need you the most. Try to minimize harm, to themselves and others.

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I believe he is referring to observations he made of others on the subject.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Robochair had it. I had been driven by adults who had been drinking far too much to be driving. I spent a lot of my teenage and earlier years seeing the negative affects of alcohol. That is something that I would never make light of.

I did use the term "swervy driving" a bit flippantly though. Sometimes it is easier to make light of your crappy memories than it is to go into detail about them :/

Edit:
The "having some beers" sentence in my post was NOT referring to myself drinking. It was referring to how I had seen adults interacting with alcohol only. Thanks for saying something, I edited my post to better reflect that.

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Yeah, after that dinner locations had to be explicitly approved on the team. However, if I had been suspended and my mentors banned after having one of my first transformative experiences concerning my view of drinking, I would have felt very let down by my school.

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I appreciate it, but to be frank it's a personal re-definition of my role that I've grown into and did not start with.

I think that's selling us short (not taking offense, just saying) because...

This could be us.


Absolutely!


Perhaps it's my naivety, not having kids of my own, but I think it is possible to make a difference and respect parents/community. It just takes more effort but I think it's worth it...well we'll see in sometime.

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You and I are pretty close on this issue I think, but if this behavior was allowed or at least not disciplined it could be norm or worse get extremely out of hand.

This is very very fine line crossing the mentor/teammate boundary.

I think you could have learned the same thing through a conversation, and if you looked up to this mentor as a role model, perhaps you would have understood.

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The school's first mission is to keep students safe, how they 'feel' can be addressed after safety.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Are you saying that I was in danger at Hooters?

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Let me slightly rephrase the original statement by asking a counter-question.

Would the school think you were safe or in danger at Hooters? (For this, whether you actually were in danger is totally irrelevant. Also, I'm deliberately avoiding the question of just what might be the cause of the danger--it just matters that the school might consider you to be in danger from something--anything.)


To rephrase the original statement, the school's first mission is to keep kids safe as the school sees safe. (Whether that should be their first mission is a matter for debate in another thread.) This is because the school's zeroth mission is to make sure the school stays open with the current staff as much as possible. (First job of any bureaucracy and all that.) And, should a kid get hurt, the school could potentially be liable--last thing the school wants is for a lawyer to show up with a lawsuit in hand.

Thus, schools have all sorts of policies to protect both kids and their own interests. Whether the policies actually are in the kids' best interests is certainly a debatable item, but this thread isn't the place to discuss that. (Matter of fact, I bet you could find some past discussion here on CD on some policies that--from one point of view--were most definitely NOT in the best interests of the kids' education.) Violation of said policies is generally considered to be a very bad thing by the various school entities involved, and subject to various penalties spelled out by the various policies.



For the students reading this thread: If a mentor has to follow organization policies when or if you say something to them, there is something that you should probably know. As much as it might hurt you to not be able to trust them, I am sure that it probably hurts them at least as much to lose that trust. You'll have to trust me: I've been there, in the "enforcement" side, and it is not a time I like to remember.

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After reading through this thread, as someone who works for Law Enforcement, I have a couple cents to throw in. The Laws of each state are very similar in the fact that drugs/alchohol on school property (including parking lots) is normally a felony and also can carry child endangerment charges. So if you have hearsay of activities, you might want to remind these young talented minds that the easiest way to ruin a great career is with a felony charge. Also most states will charge that 17 yo as an adult in these cases.
There were a few stories that had a tragic or near tragic end, those are reminders it doesn't take much to ruin a life.
Yes the post about what teachers are mandated to report doesn't include possible drug/alchohol abuse unless it endangers someone, well someone using and driving endangers a lot of people.
Talk to your students about the dangers, not only to themselves, but to others.
Thanks for your time.

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As a recent alumni turned mentor, I have found on multiple occasions that discussing topics outside of "inspiration and recognition of science and technology" can be very beneficial to students on the team. I go to a very well known and respected engineering school that most of the students on my team hope to attend. I encourage them to come talk to me about their life outside of robotics and often share with them what I did in high school in order to get into the college I am at. One of the biggest things that I try to instill in them is that in order to get into a good school, they are better off working hard, discovering their passion, and making connections than they are sneaking out to go to parties or getting involved with drugs or alcohol. Once they turn 21 they can experiment all they want with alcohol, but in the mean time I try to keep them focuses on what will help them best advance to the next stage in their life. I always to try talk to them about their interests outside of robotics, because I believe that it is very important to be well rounded and have multiple interests rather than live robotics 24/7. I have been a mentor on my team for less than a year, but I can definitely see the kids positively responding to our conversations, and I think the fact that I am so close to them in age and am where they want to be a few years down the road significantly helps.

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Yeah, we are in complete agreement. What we did was clearly against the rules as we found out when we received a lecture from the head mentor. But like I said in the story, that wasn't really the main point I was making.

Avoiding situations that break the rules is generally a good idea :)

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With hopefully not taking The Hooters thing too far.

Hooters is more of a bar with food rather than a restaurant with a bar. Unless I was completely sure the parents are Ok with that, I wouldn't take students there. If some one complained to the school it would put the school in an embarrassing situation.

While I don't completely agree with this viewpoint, many see the Hooters as exploitative of women. Once again you might have students uncomfortable with that, but feel pressure to go along. Or you might find their parents (or other memtors) have strong opinions on this.

My team's school has 24/7 rules for the students which includes not drinking or drugs. It also has exceptions of adult that are involved with school activities which include no drugs or alcohol when youth are present. We make these policies clear on an ongoing basis. Since the school doesn't pay me, I would base reporting violations (outside of team activities) on what I though best for the student.

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If your mentors drank then drove you home or back to the hotel - yes.

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They didn't. In fact the point of my post was to discuss how it could be beneficial for a student, me, to see responsible alcohol use. Drunk driving was what I had been familiar with before that night.

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Let's chill out about Hooters. It's a restaurant. It's got an odd theme for an FRC team to attend that establishment, but I really like their wings, and our 2014 drive team split 50 wings there during Champs 2014 and it was fantastic.

Hooters has nothing to do with the discussion on drugs and alcohol and how a mentor should respond to a student disclosing information about drug or alcohol use.

Personally, as a college mentor, I would probably direct them to another adult (a "real" adult) and leave them with a warning about responsible use. I am lucky enough to have never been in such a situation yet.

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On the topic of mentors drinking in front of students, here is the official policy from FIRST YPP.

Emphasis not mine. I think this would imply that a mentor having a beer with dinner is okay by FIRST as long as no underage drinking occurs. Obviously indiviual team and school policies also apply, but TBH I don't know what the policies were on most of the teams I've been on.

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Maybe not to the OP, but this discussion has drifted to general mentor/student interaction & school policies. Besides I was not the one that brought Hooters into this thread. :) I like their wings as well, but that wasn't the point either.

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Understood - but this kind of thing is clearly something best left to a parent. It is too fine a line for a FIRST mentor to walk.

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I'm not judging you but the girls on your team and/or the team mothers might not feel the same.

I'm not saying Hooters is evil or anything silly but let's be realistic - it is not the kind of place you take someone else's child. Mentors who can't make such a judgement call should reevaluate the parameters of their involvement with high school students.

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Not to derail this thread any further, but just to make sure everyone is aware:

Its not an "odd theme," its inappropriate.

I agree.

Hooters is a great way to send messages to your students about how women should be viewed as sexual objects (but it's okay because "I love their chicken wings").

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Wasn't Hooters a previous title sponsor of a very popular offseason event?
[/derail]

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So this topic went from the topic of drug use and overdose to the issue of how inappropriate it was to take students to Hooters and getting them home without drunk driving.

Interesting and judgmental (pretty sure it was indicated that they were appropriately limited to prevent that again). I just hope that while we are passing judgement we are not too busy to occasionally check our own teams.

Humans make mistakes. I worry -a lot- when people ignore that detail. I wonder how long we have to drag on it before we focus on something we can productively address like influencing students to limit: drinking, smoking, drug abuse and other excesses. They probably won't go to Hooters again. I bet right now there's a FIRST student somewhere abusing drugs.

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I don't think this discussion of Hooters' appropriateness is really relevant to the discussion of drugs and alcohol use on a team. Nor are attacks on young mentors who aren't present and who, like all of us, made a mistake and then learned from that mistake.

Everyone, can we all stop the Hooters discussion? Most of us agree that it isn't appropriate for an adult to take another person's child to one. Some of us don't, and I think we will have to agree to disagree.

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Hey look! A reasonable post!

My opinion - unless the use is very obvious during a team event or meeting - mentors should have no place in intervention or teaching a student about the dangers of drugs.

Leave the parenting to the parents.

Also, it is amazing how many posts here have no idea how the use of drugs affect the brain.

Killer weed sounds crazy,but I have a feeling it did not cause someone to be placed in a mental health facility. Drugs even as harmless as marijuana can affect underlying issues.

This thread is pointless though. Your school and your teachers as well as parents should be the ones dealing with these things. You are not to be raising someone's child. If you notice something about a student THAT GENUINELY CONCERNS OR WORRIES YOU, tell their parents you observed something.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Not an advocate for or against 'pot' but the breaking headline:
So it might not cause you more long term problems - but that does not mean it can't impact the long term problems you already have.

Which goes towards this historically.
"Some question has been raised whether the use of the plant itself produces "severe psychological or physical dependence" as required by a schedule I or even schedule II criterion. Since there is still a considerable void in our knowledge of the plant and effects of the active drug contained in it, our recommendation is that marijuana be retained within schedule I at least until the completion of certain studies now underway to resolve the issue."

Not sure people should use themselves as lab subjects - in between the munchies you probably won't be too objective.

Humor aside - this data is the form a grand experiment which falls neatly into the realm of STEM.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Once again, I feel like we are getting off topic. Can we please not discuss whether it is okay to take students to Hooters or whether marijuana should be legalized and keep talking about what mentors should do if they believe their students are using (illegal or mind altering) drugs.

For those who say mentors aren't parents and should leave the parenting to the parents: what would you do if you told the student's parents and they didn't do anything? Would you talk to the student then? Or report it to the school administration? Turn them in to the police? Just some food for thought.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I wouldn't report something without concrete proof.
Overhearing some kids talking is not actually concrete proof.
Someone could be bragging without actually doing the drinking/drugs.

On the other hand: if I was to get a pupil's parents involved I would have more than ample evidence than required to refute the trivial denial. It's likely I would have done some research and understand the different laws in my State and my obligations within the school before I engaged.

I would have done some research (as I did above as a courtesy - without making a determination if it is - or is not a reasonable law), to determine the risk to the pupil and to the group (they might be dealing). Then I would politely have the conversation in private if it warranted it. Smoking 'pot' once in a while might not warrant it - dealing drugs or doing it all the time - might warrant it.

I've never felt the need to discuss a students drinking habits outside of something I mentor (I mentor more than FIRST). I have felt the need to discuss hardcore drug use with a pupil. Then their parents when it became clear they were not able to break the habit that would likely kill them.

If the parents showed me no interest - at all - in the well being of their child I might bring that up to an organizer with greater visibility than myself. That level of disregard is dangerous on a lot of levels.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

With 6 pages of comments, if we kept strictly to the OP's question, we would be close to beating a dead horse. :deadhorse: :) Anyway back to the OP's question which is what to do about hearsay information about non team behavior and not what the students are doing while on a team activity...

Keeping in mind that my team's school has a 24/7 rules policy and students are largely guilty until proven innocent: I would need verifiable facts before reporting. Even then I would keep in mind that once reported they would be kicked off the team & college admissions might be effected. With the current zero tolerance for drug use, the criminal penalties might likely outweigh the damage of recreational drug use. Damaging behaviors like violence & large scale dealing are a different issue.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I'm not so sure I would either, nor am I sure that that is the best course of action. Reporting to someone who is simply going to get the student in trouble is not always the way to go. Sometimes it is better to approach them personally and handle it without going to the higher-ups if you can. Once again, compassion and being relatable/personable are always going to accomplish way more than sticking a kid in detention. Obviously if you have mandatory reporting rules this cannot be the case, please use discretion.

For those of you (not necessarily techhelpbb, who I quoted here) that say leave parenting to parents, you have to recognize that many kids don't have role-model parents or any parents for that matter. So, often times they lack any discipline or guidance at home. As mentors (a title I hope to one day earn) we have an obligation to help students who look up to us. I know my mentors have been among the most impactful people in our lives, and to suggest mentors do not have a role to play in this issue is wrong. Great mentors teach more than great STEM skills, they teach life skills and help students wherever they can in times of need.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I completely agree with this.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

Agree with verifiable facts, no rumors or hearsay, but the ramifications are not up to FIRST mentors. For better or worse there are elected school boards, trained teachers, administrators, counselors and hopefully parents. Most FIRST mentors have no special knowledge in this area, please let parents and professionals handle it. FIRST mentors can't be in the business of weighing penalties versus damage from the drugs. Imagine the day when a grieving parent comes to a mentor and says "but you knew".

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I applaud your concern and empathy for kids with no functioning parents at home. There are many great programs for you to help reach such students. People who volunteer in such programs are truly special! All those programs involve professional counselor-types to help you help the student.

But no such infrastructure exists in FIRST. We can be generally supportive but FIRST mentors are technical mentors and coaches. We do not have the complete picture. It is better, for the student, to let professionals at school or other agencies help troubled students.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

The OP included alcohol and the Hooters incident featured alcohol. And mentors who make poor choices tend to make them in multiple areas.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

A mentor drinking one legal drink at dinner in a responsible manner is hardly a "poor choice". It's also not against any of FIRST's YPP rules.

I agree with most of your points that most mentors are not properly equipped to make decisions about a student's responsible drug use, but let's not dramaticize responsible use- that only serves to demonize all use of alcohol instead of just discouraging poor use, causing students to not know the difference.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

The poor choice was Hooters and driving after drinking (which Monchron says did not happen). All I'm saying is poor choices are not isolated incidents.

Though YPP allows it, does the student learn that "my mentor drinks responsibly" or simply "my mentor drinks". Who knows? Students process things in all kinds of crazy ways, some rational and some not. I respect your opinion. Personally I do not EVER drink in front of the students. It seems the safer road to travel. Some school districts take this seriously - our teachers are strongly discouraged from going to establishments in the county that serve alcohol without meals (so no bars, dance clubs etc).

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I hear you and many/most people responsibly use alcohol. But not that does not include everybody. I was a bartender for 7-8 years. I had many customers who were responsible drinkers. But I had some who, after drinking a couple, could not stop (alcoholic or not). Alcoholism is a disease and, according to the NIH, is nearly 50% genetic. How do we explain that to a FIRST student? I'm not looking to demonize anything or anybody just advocating that we let professionals do their job.

Re: Drugs and Alcohol - Dirty Little Secrets
 

I make poor choices. You make poor choices. EVERY mentor makes poor choices.
I could just be misunderstanding but it really sounds like you are trying to demonize someone for making that poor choice. Kind of a one-strike and you're out situation. People will usually make many poor choices in their lives (so you are right) and those poor choices are great opportunities to become a better person from. The same goes for making mistakes while building a robot and then having to iterate to fix it. The second poor choice though, is something that you completely fabricated.

And an even better lesson for a student than making a mistake themselves is to see someone they respect make a mistake, correct their behavior, and move on a better person for it.


I know. It is the former. I learned "my mentor drinks responsibly". Other people might take something else away from the experience, but I think it ridiculous to try to hide very normal and socially acceptable things that we do from students. Like what Kevin said about dramatizing alcohol use, we should not act like drinking is a taboo. In the US we have a real problem with teenagers treating alcohol like it is a party drug. "My mentor drinks" is not a bad lesson at all, it is a neutral lesson. There are many way to have a negative relationship with alcohol and refusing to acknowledge it or treating it like a taboo is one of them.