Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Say a student was on a team for a full 4 years, which 4 year span do you think would be the greatest to have been on a team?

I think the 2 time spans that have a claim are: 2004-2007 and 2012-2015.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Probably something like 2010-2013, but I think it depends on the team. I would want a more recent year due to number of teams ad an overall better experience. Outreach is highly team-dependent, so in terms of competitiveness I would say 2013 or 2015 senior year is good for a high resource team, and 2014 for a lower resource team. The reason being that 2013/2015 had a number of elements, and for high-performing teams the chances of winning were higher due to the skill gap. 2014 was much simpler from a design/strategy perspective in that it was possible to be a 1st or 2nd pick by an alliance captain and win using their strategy. Plus. intake + shooter was as far as the design went (plus sweetspot, strategy stuff, etc. but for inbounders and trussers drive practice for defense was more important IMO).
I've only witnessed a few games, so I can't call it for sure.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

This year will be my fourth year and I'm happy of the last three... Even if recycle rush was not as exiting as Ultimate ascend or Rebound rumble... I think all the games were fun at some point and you could build an interesting robot every year...

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Without question in my mind, they would have to be:
2004-2007
2011-2014

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

You could also make an argument for 2010-2013, depending on which game you liked better, Breakaway or Aerial Assist. I was a 2011-2014 student, and other than Logomotion, that series of games was incredible.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Team 71 students from 2001-2004.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

My team's best years were 2005 - 2008.
My favorite years were 2010-2013 (mostly for the last two years).

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

2011-2014 or 2010-2013 are the clear winning answers. I go with the former because I liked Aerial Assist. The latter is for those who didn't.


Winning more recently is much bigger than it was then. I'd argue 67 from 2007-2010 (Finalists 2008, Winners 2009 & 2010).

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I liked Breakaway better than I liked Aerial Assualt.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Some teams allow 8th grade students to play, so they get 5 year (student) careers. I guess they don't have the debate, it's 2010-2014.

----

An alternate 4 year IMHO that wasn't bad: 2005-2008

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I'll do get that :) I have 2013-2017...

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

The only thing this thread is showing is the dislike of 2003, 2009, and 2015 (and a lack of knowledge or support for pre-2003).

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

^ this....


I wish I could be biased and say mine (2003 - 2006) but....I'm sure 2003 would get my FIRST card taken away....

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

2011-2014 hands down. 2012 and 2013 were my favorite games :]

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

My student years were 2004-2007 and I'll gladly agree that they were awesome :D

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

If we were talking about a 3 year career, it would be tough to top 2012-2014. If I'm tacking on an extra year to make it 4 years, Logomotion is an easy choice over Recycle Rush.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I'd have to agree as those were my years. :D Really though, even though I didn't pay attention to 2011 & 2012, I'd say 2011-2014 has been the best group. Now I'm sure there are some 90's games that were really good that I just don't know much about.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Agreed

1) 04-07 and 11-14 tied

Hard to compare games that far apart, as FRC really evolved during that time.

2) 05-08 and 10-13 tied

Argument could be made for these.

TL,DR: 03, 09, 15 aren't that popular....

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

For my team if was by far 2006 to 2009.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Best:
2005-2008
2011-2014

Worst:
2001-2004

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I'll take '03-'07-- oh, wait, that's my years. I actually think '08 was better than '03, so '04-'08. ('03 brings back memories of the STACKS of boxes waiting to get their lids pop-riveted on and stickers applied....)

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

2015 - 2018
Let's just say I'm an optimist :D

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

i did 2011-2015 and i'd choose recycle rush over logomotion anytime...

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I don't know, 2016-2018 will have to be pretty good to make up for last year...

on a positive note, I feel like 2011-2014 were the best years.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

To me, it seems like 2011 - 2014 was the Golden Age.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I think you're missing the point. Going through Recycle Rush makes all subsequent games a million times better in comparison. ;)

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

This implies that you think 2019 will be worse than 2015.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

2017 and beyond will have twice as many Championships, so they'll be twice as good...

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

So, I have a question about this for everyone. Do you think the best era of FIRST has passed, is passing, or has already passed? Or is it too hard to tell right now. With the creation of two championships a lot of people have been extremely upset about the new change to an extent that seems could be lasting.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I hope I'm wrong, but if current trends continue the best era has already happened.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

What he said.

I'm hopeful that FIRST, after getting a lot feedback from the community this past year, will get back on the right path. I think we will have a much better idea of the path they are taking by the end of next season. FIRST needs to realize that teams building really cool robots, competiting with them, and showing them off is what made it such a success in the first place. If they continue trying to push the idea that the robots and the competition aren't very important, then things are looking grim for FIRST's future.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I'll say 2011-2014 were some very fun games to play

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Rose tinted safety goggles.

In 3-4 years there will be a completely new crop of students, and dual championship events will be their norm.


With regards to best era, I would leave out 2008. I didn't appreciate the scarcity of game objects, nor the struggles certain teams had in testing their robots on the practice field (no catapults allowed!)
Maybe 2004-2007.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

most of u say 2011-2014, but wasn't 2010 > 2014? i haven't played it but breakaway seems pretty nice. Though, 2014 wasn't too bad either.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I never personally experienced Breakaway, but from some videos I have watched I personally feel Aerial Assist was better. In 2010, At the regional level of play, matches looked fairly boring with some matches ending in a score of 1-0 or similar. This is not because of good defense, it was because only 2 robots would move on the field, and many had trouble moving the balls into scoring position. This is just what I saw, though. 2014 had robots scoring all over the place and super exciting matches even at the regional level.

Not to mention, many of the robots in 2010 were almost identical on the field, whereas 2014 had more design variance.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I was just making a joke. In all seriousness I don't think the two championships plan will affect game design in any noticeable way. As for other impacts, time will tell.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

2014 has become a very divisive game. Many (myself included) consider it one of the all time greats, especially when its tactical, teamwork-heavy, and interaction-heavy nature is directly contrasted with 2015. Many others consider it a horrible game, due to penalties, subjectivity of scoring, extreme defense, and other factors. I think the overall opinion of 2014 has gone up over time -- I'm guessing that if you asked this question a year ago, many more would say 2010-2013.

2010 is more generally considered "alright" by most everybody. I don't know anyone who would put it in the company of 2012/2013 as great games, but I don't know many who despise it either.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

My first ever experience with a FIRST competition was 2010 at the River Rage off-season competition. It was cool and a blast and my team won, so I thought we were the best. Then 2011 came and I got a far more mediocre game than 2010 and I was kinda disappointed.

My senior year was 2014, and I was our human player. 2014 was a year of crazy highs (winning two regionals), awesome strategy (the under-rated low goal plays, death cycles, trusses to catches, insane defense), and crazy lows (losing in quarterfinals at championships on foul points, fouls that cost us matches, over-reliance on alliance partners, robot parts breaking at inopportune times).

I don't know which one was better. I think I'd have to say 2014, but 2010 was pretty cool too. Either way, I think we can all agree 2015, 2009, 2003 were terrible, and no one was particularly fond of 2011, 2008, 2002 either.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I think the only people who liked 2001's game was the people on 71.

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Those are just the 4 years I'll be on my team, I couldn't care if 2016's game is can opening as long as I'm with my team, every year is the best year.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I think it's funny that people are hating on 2015 and glorifying 2014. There were many, many hate threads on 2014 last year too, as I am sure there are every year. :D 2015 should be excluded from the pickings until 2016 to get a fair estimate.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

It's because people remember the AMAZING moments of 2014, but forget the difficult reffing, shaky rulings, and obscene defense. I do consider the Chezy Champs version of Aerial Assist to be the best game ever, but the normal season version had too many human factors to get that title. :]

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Key difference is 2014 was a game.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I hated 2014 until January 3rd, 2015, then I changed my mind.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

2013-2017 represent. I would have to say that any student that has both 2013 and 2014 have had two of what I would say is the best games in FRC.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

There are "many" complaints every year, but that doesn't mean there are the same number. The complaints about 2014 never came close to say 2009, nor did they approach 2015. 2010 maybe.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Did people actually complain about 2010? I thought it was considered the most accepted game.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

My take on 2010 vs 2014:

2010 had hits, shots, missed shots, and a consistent theme (which, for FRC, is hit-and-miss.... this one hit). It's the first year yellow cards were an option for the refs. The game pieces (or simulated game pieces) were readily available, there was terrain, and the biggest problem was the DOGMA penalties if a human made a mistake. (That, and 469 hogging all the balls they could get to :p ;) :rolleyes: .) But, due to some of the rules being the way they were, scores were low: you couldn't really fully possess the balls, and you were limited to one at a time. Low scores meant lots of ties. And the ranking system I won't even mention. (Yes, it was that bad.)

2014 had hits, shots, and missed shots. The excitement level was way up there. On the other hand, the entire game relied on the referees to make the right call with not enough eyes on the field, and to make it right away with a laggy system. To make matters worse, the penalty point values were out of whack with the scored point values.

I'd have to give 2014 the edge for the continuous action... but 2010 gets the edge for being somewhat easier to ref (and keep track of). YMMV.

To me, that's actually what can make or break a game, ANY game: if you get a penalty, is the value of the penalty in proportion to the offense committed AND to the typical score of a given match in that game? Recycle Rush actually nailed this one: get a penalty, score 3 totes or 1 noodle on a stack and you're even (other than the hit to the ranking points that you'd have otherwise gotten). Several other games were similar in the past--but, at the same time, there are games like '08 where simply spinning around in place in a lousy spot could get you a penalty (no joke--try G22 from that year, and add in that 2/4 lines were in a place the refs couldn't see 'em very well).

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

The "no takesie-backsie" rule from 2008 is probably the worst rule I have run across since I joined; what made it worst, was early on you didnt have to completely cross the line to have been considered "passed it" which made for very inconsistent ref rulings.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Think that's 10 years too late, or maybe only 4-6.

2000, 2004, and 2006 were all very accepted. 2007, too, as I recall. '05 had very out-of-whack penalties in certain situations--but they had their effect, as teams committing those violations generally lost the match. '01 and '03 are very low on the "happy" list; '02 is somewhere in the middle.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

2010 was also ungodly hard. I think the average OPR was <1? Definitely crossed the line of too hard of a game, IMO.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

OPR is relative. The high was something like 6 or 7.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

The magnitude is relative, yes. But regardless of the game, zero points is zero points. I'd argue a higher number of robots had zero offensive contribution in 2010 compared to other recent games.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

An OPR of 1 roughly corresponded to one goal per match by a robot. Most robots, IF my memory is correct, could shoot more than 1 Frisbee, basketball, tetra, tube, or tote. The average team any other year could score more than 6 or 7 game pieces, whereas only the "best" in 2010 could score that much.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Given the number of zero-zero ties, that might be a fair assessment. OTOH, there weren't all that many of those without a penalty assessed somewhere.

The #1 biggest problem with 2010 was the possession rule. For those that weren't there, you had to work with one ball at a time--inadvertently grabbing another got you a penalty. (After Week 1, the rule was modified somewhat to allow inadvertent violations to try to clear out any extras.) And you could only have about 6" of the ball under your control, 3" or less actually inside your frame (or other ball-control device, if that was on top of your frame) and the rest under your bumpers. And the real kicker was that the kicker had to be inside the frame perimeter. 3" on a size 5 soccer ball ain't a lot of room to work with!

If that one dimension was somewhat larger, I think the scores would have been a lot higher. The game was good as a game, just that particular number, and the ranking system were really annoying.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

You cannot compare games by the number of "scores" a team can make. Look at it like this, how many opportunities to score that soccerball did a 2010 team have per match? Now, compare that to how many opportunities teams had to score a frisbee in 2013, basketball in 2012, a tote in 2015, etc...

If the average alliance score in 2010 was 3, and the average OPR was 1 which came out to 1 goal per team per match, that would be the equivalent of scoring 20 points this year.(if the average alliance score was around 60)

Like I said, OPR isnt a good way to compare robot ability from year to year.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Thank you for your insight. However, I feel you missed my main point.

My point was not to compare OPR from year to year. My point, in a nutshell, is that if it takes a robot the entire match period to get one game piece in a goal, then that game is probably harder than a game where a robot can score many times in one match, regardless of the point value of scoring; this supports Knufire's claim. If an average robot can only score once on a decent match then the game is probably too hard. That being said, there were some great robots in 2010, but they came around less often than most other years since the game was harder to play.

In other words, even though 2010 had fewer opportunities to score (i.e. fewer balls on the field) there were still many cases when none of those opportunities were completed anyways and that led to a bunch of "0" scores. Our team won 7 matches in 2010 against a 0 score and lost 6 matches the same way - tell me Breakaway wasn't hard.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

2004-2007, and it's not really close.

2010 was ungodly bad during the early weeks (even setting aside the ranking shenanigans that were modified after week 1). Yes, most games are bad during regional qualification matches. But we're talking a level of bad where 57% of matches during the DC regional had at least one alliance finish the match with 0 points. Two elimination alliances at Peachtree scored 0 goals combined in the quarterfinals.

All games improve dramatically as the season progresses. Looking at early week video of just about any game is pretty depressing. But Breakaway took this to the extreme. Compared to many FRC games, it already involved scoring fewer game objects per match in general. But when that figure hits 0 as often as it did in Breakaway, it makes for a poor game. It was simply too hard for the lower level teams to corral the soccer ball given the stipulations that game had.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

This! My opinion, subject to other's opinions:

2015 is too soon for me to fairly judge, so I am excluding it.

2014 was one of the most dynamic games of all time (close with 2004).
2013 was a solid game but had problematic defensive zone interactions.
2012 was an all around solid game.
2011 minibot race was disastrously overvalued. In the playoffs, if you lost the minibot race 1-2, you did not win.
2010 had too high of an entry for minimum competitive teams. Too many 0-0 QRounds.
2009 is a personal favorite of mine, but a nightmare to keep track of the score for spectators.
2008 was just a bad game with minimal intentional robot-robot interaction.
2007 was a better version of 2011, defensive play allowed for different roles, no minibots.
2006 dynamic game play (offensive time vs defensive time) and well tiered scoring.
2005 one of my favorite games to watch videos of. Alliance score could increase or decrease as the game progressed.
2004 probably the most dynamic game of all time. Organized chaos.
2003 neat concept, ultimately became a bulldozing competition ending in a king of the mountain contest, lacked role variance.
2002-earlier: no autonomous, not much knowledge/video of games.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I think that can be fixed. (Just don't spend too much time poking around there.)

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Am I in an alternate reality where the 2009 FRC game wasn't Lunacy?

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Nah, there were just a few people who liked Lunacy. At higher levels there were some cool strategic plays you could make, and it required a very different style of thinking from other years.

However those very few positives were outweighed by a boatload of negatives that cause most people to hate the game. (Similar reactions to 2015, mind you- a few people liked that the lack of size restrictions allowed for a ton of creativity, but most everyone else hated this game).

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I'd make an argument for 2009-2012.
Lunacy was a game that had a cool theme, accessible game objective, useful human players. Very simple pump-and-dump robots could be successful, and the Fullest-Trailer-Loses concept made it easy to track.
2010 featured an easy to explain game with a bit more mechanical sophistication. Still accessible to BLTs, rewarding and exciting for more elegant designs.
Logomotion was a cool celebration of FIRST; an easy to understand and score game; exciting and impressive to watch great matches.
2012 was, in my eyes, the GOAT game. A fantastic way for a student to end his/her high school career. Exciting gameplay, exciting endgame, balanced scoring, not too penalty-ridden, plus the concept of the Coopetition Bridge was a great way to bring in people new to this style of robotics competitions.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Except 2013>2009 every time.
2013 was the coolest game (this coming from a guy who had his first good year in 2013 and plays ultimate frisbee, to be fair).
2013 had a few minor flaws, like climbing being undervalued, and fouls related to climbing being very punishing.
But 2013 also had an incredible design challenge for higher level teams, accessible and competitive lower level designs, dynamic and exciting strategy at all levels, and some of the coolest robots I've ever seen in FRC playing some of the most exciting matches.
/rant

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I don't disagree that Ultimate Ascent was better than Lunacy.
However, as a progression from Freshman (Rookie) to Senior (Veteran), and the progression of games along that span, I'd be partial to 09-12. With '13 as the first Mentor Year.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

So every 6 years FIRST makes a game that is predominately disliked by the community , that's interesting. Wonder what it'll be in 2021?

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I also enjoyed Lunacy, a good robot and being the driver were probably added factors.

Trying to design a traction control device and strategy to pin robots or design autons to load robots, always drove us to improve and really get the sense of continuous improvement.

(Funny that I now run the continuous improvement program at my job).

I would pick 2004-2007 as the best years with 2011-2014 as a close second. My personal best were 06-09, since I was on the drive team :yikes: .

-Nick

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

^
Personally, I think 2011-2014 is the strongest. The games were diverse in terms of game type, mechanisms and strategy.

2011: placement game, claws were common but some were better than others, unique endgame if overcompetitive, good strategy was required in order to win at a high level, no single "ideal" alliance.
2012: shooting game, primarily flywheels but other methods were viable (see: 548 and 16), endgame was exciting, strategies were somewhat diverse, no single "ideal" alliance.
2013: shooting game, all flywheels which was dissapointing (except for 1503 and 1024), endgame was exciting, diminishing returns on auto and endgame required smart design in order to be successful, an "ideal" alliance clearly was established, sadly.
2014: shooting game, many different mechanism styles, auto required teams to value consistency, a huge variety of strategies that were all viable, no "ideal" alliance because of diverse play styles.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I don't see how you can argue that 2011-2014 was diverse when the first two words used to describe 2012, 2013, and 2014 were all "shooting game." 2012 and 2013, in particular, were astoundingly similar for games played in back-to-back years. They were both flywheels shooter games with 1, 2, and 3 point goals, limited payloads, no muzzle velocity, and tiered end-games. Both years also severely lacked design diversity compared to most other games. Sure you can point out exceptions in each game, but every game has a handful of exceptions.

That's not to say I don't like 2012 or 2013 as games. They're two of my all time favorites. But the diversity argument during that timeframe is completely bunk.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

2013 had all sorts of successful robots. When discussing 2012 or 2011, for example, you come up with what was essentially the best design, but not in 2013. In 2013, there were cyclers and floor pickups and full court shooters and climbers and very few of these robots looked the same.

Take a whole bunch of floor pickup robots and compare them- very few were similar in design aside from the fact that they probably had a flywheel shooter and roller collector. But those flywheel shooters might have been 1 wheel with a curved wall, 2 or 3 wheels with a flat wall, those collectors might have had top rollers with a tray to pull the discs onto or top and bottom rollers. Their release points and shooting locations were often different too.

Cyclers and Full court shooters were generally more homogenous, but often still different (were they tall or short, how did they shoot, what was their drivetrain)

Robots with climbs were crazier still.

I don't think the idea that 2013 lacked design diversity holds water whatsoever.

2011 and 2012 had many homogenous robot designs, but 2014 also had a lot of different designs.

2014 had roller collector captaults and Simbot SS's, sure, but the exact design details of each were still often way different. 20's roller collector captault was totally different than 469's or 340's, and 1114's Simbot SS was totally different than 971's or 2791's.

As while they were all shooting games, the style of shooting was remarkably different each year. 2012 required a lot of backspin on the balls and the ability to account for differences in density, 2013 was a totally different game piece that required unique systems to deliver the game piece to the shooter, and 2014 had giant balls that required giant mechanisms, and you only needed to ever hold one ball at a time.

TLDR: 2011-2014 absolutely had diverse robot design and variance in game design.
/endrant

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

All games have certain degrees of design variance. None of 2011-2014 were particularly exceptional in that regard. In fact, 2011-2013 are among the most homogenous games in recent memory.

2012 and 2013 are shockingly similar for back-to-back games. Both games were [predominantly flywheel] shooting games. Both games had 1 point, 2point, and 3 point goals. Both games limited the amount of game objects you could carry (3 in 2012, 4 in 2013). Both games had specially designed feeder stations. The autonomous mode in both games simply added a scoring bonus to each object scored. Really the only big contrast was the end games, and even those were both tiered scoring.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Compare that with 2004 or 2007 where robots could do mutually exclusive game objectives and still be successful, and I disagree.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

2013, in my mind, was a weak game. Nice to watch, but sub-par in every other way. However, it's the visual appeal that matters- 2013 was fun to watch, and since everyone else on here seems to think it was by far the best game ever, I'll give it the credit everyone thinks it deserves. We would think of 2012 as an awesome game if 2013 hadn't copycatted half of it.

The thing about "shooting game" is that the majority of games since 2005 have been shooting games, so the 3:1 proportion is perfectly reasonable. I'll agree, though, that 2013 and 2012 were very similar. Their only difference was in how constraining they were, in terms of design diversity, and strategic diversity. 2013 wasn't as tolerant of unique designs.* It also didn't require a huge amount of cooperation between teams when it came to the endgame, and it didn't offer many options for autonomous. Neither game was particularly diverse, but 2013 was definitely the worse of the two.

*Basically, at the level of an average team, there was only one viable design in 2013- a cycler with a 10-point climb. More complex designs (usually) ended up not working well. Those that did successfully have a climber or teleop collector were almost exclusively high-level teams. And yeah, someone is going to make the argument about full court shooters being doable for average teams, but I'm talking about designs that were proven to be viable, even at a high level. 2013 had minimal strategy. Generally, there was nothing beyond "okay, you do your thing, you do your thing, you defend." At least in 2012 you could do more complex strategies without significant losses- see 16 on Einstein.

However, even with the shortcomings I find in 2012 and 2013, they were still undeniable crowd pleasers. Both games were fun to watch, and there's something to be said for an FRC game that is appealing to people who have never even heard of FIRST. Watching a robot climb a pyramid, or sitting on the edge of your seat to see if an alliance would get the triple balance, a good FRC game always has a little fanservice. (hmmm... I wonder why everyone hates 2015) Combine the fanservice of these two games with 2011 and 2014, which had stronger diversity and strategy, and it's a well-balanced combo.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

This depends on the perspective of either our students or mentors and their personal experiences on performance.
For our lead driver who just graduated, he would say 2012-15. During his 4 year career, he won 10 of 11 regionals, losing in the finals of that 2013 Hawaii fiasco when one/both our partners either died or didnt move the entire semifinals-finals matches.
Personally, I have mixed feelings about this past year's game. Its the game I hated the most, yet statistically, our best season ever.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Except that's still not true.
I've given 20's story from 2013 a number of times, but essentially we were awful in 2012 because we tried to do everything, so in 2013 we tried to simplify and specialize.

We shot from one location on the field directly in front of the pyramid about 5 feet from the goal. We couldn't go under the pyramid. But we had a floor collector that was pretty simple (banebots wheels pulling discs onto a tray that slid across the ground).

Most teams could have built what we built that year. The tray was linear to prevent jamming and literally had electrical tape on a belt heping to pull the discs up it. It was simple, and it scored 80+ points a match at championships just because it was so simple. Strategically we had a ton of options as a floor collector.

Strategy for most alliances in 2013 was bland, yes. But at mid to high levels it was pretty fantastic. Full court shooting and blocking and floor collecting and feeding and cycling could be intermixed and sometimes needed to.

And 2012's strategy was way more bland. It was "Hey we score, you score, you feed us. Depending on how much we're winning or losing by, we'll either double or triple balance." At best there were some advanced strategies involving ball starvation.

EDIT: sorry if half my posts in this thread are about how much I loved 2013. It was my first time being good, so maybe that's why I love it so much.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

Many teams could have made what you did, but very few actually did it. I have to give you guys credit- it was a great design but very simple.
My problem with full-court shooting is that it was repeatedly proven to not work at the highest levels of play. This was seen over and over:
-The presence of only one dedicated full-court shooter on Einstein
-The winning alliance consisted of three cyclers, and one who blocked FCS shots when necessary but still contributed a significant number of points.
-The IRI winning alliance, again, had no full court shooters but instead focused on strong endgame scores and strong defense in order to win.

2013 teleop strategy worked like this: "we'll shoot, you shoot, you defend" or, alternatively, "we'll shoot, you shoot, you shoot" add in some comment about "you climb" and/or "you do auto" and that was about it, for most alliances. Sure, there were other strategies (see the #5 alliance at IRI, where 4265 did FCS and 33 cleaned up their misses) but, ultimately, the winning alliances at the highest levels of play consistently were those who stuck to the basics. 2012 wasn't awesome in terms of strategy, I'll admit, but at least the "we'll pass to you instead of shooting" concept was viable, even at the highest levels of play. (16 on Einstein)

Believe me, I romanticize 2013 a bit too :rolleyes: It was our first "good" year as well.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

In my opinion, 2012-2016, even including recycle rush, the games were great.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

You already know 2016? Are you secretly on the gdc? :D

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

https://youtu.be/ianQO92rb0s?t=38s
Highest score (minus penalties) that year. If that isn't the "highest levels of play" I don't know what is. :rolleyes:

The reason why I'd argue 2013 was the greatest game in recent FRC history is because of how the game had to adapt. Even on Einstein you saw 1477's elevator come out to block 469's full-court shots. It might be true that the world champions stuck to the basics of cycling, but it would be negligent to say that the only successful alliances did the same.

I admit I'm biased, but to answer the OP: 2010-2013.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

I agree that full court shooting was one of the highest levels of play during 2013, but what Evan was trying to say here is that basic strategies employed like the 2013 world championship alliance and the 2013 IRI alliance ending up winning against the alliances who had robots that specialized in terms of scoring (FCS, cycler, picking up missed discs from FCS and scoring them, etc.) because of their simple strategy that allowed them to adapt and play defense. Alliances that specialized were forced to adapt and ended up missing key pieces in their alliance that allowed them to score high (because one key piece of their alliance would be forced to play defense or counter defense to adapt, the alliance would lose a scorer). Adaptability was huge and the 2013 world championship alliance and the IRI alliance showcased that.

FCS was a very successful strategy, and is definitely a part of the "highest levels of play" scoring wise. Maybe a better statement, is that the most successful alliances during 2013 had the ability to adapt against all kinds of alliances they would face.

Re: Best 4 Year Game Career?
 

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make in the latter half of my post. Ultimate Ascent was not so simplistic so that "one sort" of alliance could always beat "another sort" of alliance. For example, a team of 3 cycling robots could not always beat an full-court shooter, which could not always beat a floor pickup, which could not always beat a 50-point climber, which could not always beat the 3 cycling robots, etc. The successful alliances - as we saw repeatedly at IRI and on Einstein - had to change their strategy each match in order to win. (If you want more match examples I'm happy to provide.)

I think the very fact that we are still discussing the nuances of strategy in 2013 is a testament to how great the game was. I admit that I haven't been in FRC for very long compared to many, but from the games I have experienced, 2013 was one of the most complex (in terms of strategy), exciting (in terms of audience appeal) and challenging (in terms of engineering) challenge the GDC has given us. So, I stand by 2010-2013.