Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

This is one of the many benefits of the District system. At the 2014 Clifton District Event, Team 1257 was picked in the second round by the #2 alliance and we won the event. We never felt like we didn't deserve a blue banner because we had a really cohesive alliance.
The win was an inspiration. We had a taste of success and wanted more. We made extensive improvements to our robot and pushed to earn enough District Points to qualify for MAR Championship. While we didn't get picked at our second district, we ended up as the #2 Alliance Captain at MAR Champs. We lost in quarters to the winning alliance, but the success we found in 2014 motivated us to improve our team as much as possible for 2015.
In order to reproduce our success, we put a lot of effort into increasing our resources, improving our design and fabrication process, and improving our business program. This season was our first season ever that we were picked at both our District Events (the #7 alliance captain at Mount Olive, and the second pick of the Finalist #2 alliance at North Brunswick). This year was our best yet, and it was largely inspired by that win at Clifton.
TL;DR We've found that success breeds success, and that can begin with an event win as a late pick.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

I can understand your point at the regional level, but I would wager that there has never been a World Champion alliance where the second pick did not play a crucial role in the success of the alliance. If an alliance captain dismisses the importance of the second pick at the championship level, they might as well forefeit their chance at winning the world championship.

Some examples:
2015: 1671 was a competitive scoring robot that could human load without a tethered ramp and place multiple capped stacks of six.
2014: 2848's kiss passing, defense, and occasional long truss shots helped seal the deal for the 254 alliance.
2013: 610 was one of the most consistent cyclers in the world.
2012: 16's ball starvation and feeding strategy was crucial to the success of the alliance.
2011: 973 had the fastest minibot in the world and one of the highest traction drive trains at the event, with strong driving.
2010: 177's ability to pass balls forward, occasionally score from midfield, and consistently hang were part of what gave the alliance the edge in the final matches.
2009: 971 was a very strong scorer with the ability to human load fairly easily as well.
2008: 148's maneuverability and strategic defense meant that they could often prevent opponents from acquiring game pieces or scoring for long periods of time. Check out some of the later matches on Einstein to see how this worked.

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

Agreed. I think MAYBE two of those alliances could have won with a different robot for their third partner.

He might also be talking about members of 74 or 5012, who also fall into the "not a captain/first pick" category.
These two had different, less tangible contributions to their alliances than the picks you listed above, so I could understand that kind of feeling.

There are students on 20 that don't feel like we "deserved" our divisional win this year even though I can point to examples where we contributed off-the-field to help with the win. It's a difficult mindset for some people to buy into.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

I think the point I was trying to make wasn't what came across in my post so I'll try again. My point was that a team that gets picked in the second round and plays an important role may not have been happy about it because they saw themselves as a premiere bot of an alliance, not the third robot/role player. I fully understand how important these third robots are, but maybe they were expecting more out of themselves.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

I'd like to win.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

I think it depends on your perspective.

We never played on Saturday afternoon during our first 3 seasons, and I would have given anything just to be in the position to select 1A or 1B. Now that we have won blue banners at districts & district champs, I would always choose 1A. I would consider 1B a step backward.

We have qualified for CMP and made it into playoffs every year since 2009, but never won our division (let alone Einstein!). Therefore, I would have to go with 2B for now. If we ever do win there, I expect that I would choose 2A from that point forward.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

An interesting thing to consider would be 900 this year. They were a huge part of one of the coolest things developed in the 2015 season, but unfortunately they didn't get to play on the field. Nor did they have the chance to play with the robot that they originally designed for the game. Still they were picked for their talents and their unique position. I know a lot of that has been covered in previous threads, but Chris's defense of non-picking robots reminded me.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

Ohh, we definitely played with our original robot. It got us to CMP, our alliance partners from NC seemed pretty happy with it too (and it's overly-complicated miserable arm! Curse you physics!). Nvidia even liked it.

I appreciate Karthik's question here. It's a good one to ask. I can't help but think he is either scouting with it or trolling us all though... I can't relay the conversation in its entirety because its all a bit fuzzy now but at one point he stopped and asked us if we were serious about taking a robot built in a day to Einstein. I think he was actually asking us if we really were as nuts as we seemed before we started seriously building it. The three folks from 900 involved in that conversation all said "yes" at the same time. I now know that one of the things to look for in an alliance partner has nothing to do with their strategy or their robot but rather their determination and drive to win.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

I just meant after Qualification rounds at CMP. I'm no detractor of your guys' awesomeness this season. Just figured it was relevant to Chris's comment.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

None of the above. I just thought this exercise was an interesting one. I know it's a question I struggle to answer myself, and also one that reveals a lot when you think about it and try to answer.

It's nearly impossible to quantify and very difficult to determine, but it's an important piece of criteria that can serve as a very beneficial deciding factor when comparing teams which are relatively even statistically.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

Wisconsin, Carver (Midwest and Carson if you want to focus on the first seed)... I'd keep going but I don't need to.

I've always subscribed to the idea that winning is the highest priority. Winning is what gets you further and further each season. Of course, seeding high is generally a result of winning, but the seed itself doesn't decide how good you actually are, and it doesn't decide if you go to champs.

At an average-sized event, 45-60 teams, the last pick was better than the rest in some way. Even at an event with 30 teams, the 24th pick likely did something right, that placed them above the three other teams available to the first seed alliance. And, if they won the event, that last pick bot should be proud, because they contributed something to that first seed alliance that made it stronger than the rest, whether that be good defense, a simple yet effective pass-through assist, or the extra weight for two ramps plus the ability to put up a few extra points. Even a backup bot can contribute massively to an alliance. 1089 may have only played once in championship elims, but their immense patience and determination to help us in our cheesecake adventure was amazing. And, even in the one match they played, they made vital contributions to the alliance.

FRC isn't about blue banners, it's about inspiring students through hands-on engineering in a competitive setting. However, there's something undeniably inspirational about winning.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

This. Becoming a Captain is hard. In 2014, our team was never a captain, despite being one of the top 3 robots in our first two district events (the scheduling gods kinda hate us).

definitely

Your post was beautiful and brilliant, but I would add that some "next 4334's" (including 4334) attempted designs around uprighting the last row of totes (not that that was useful, as it turned out)

sorry, this is mostly just quoting people. I'm loving the conversation around this; it's a brilliant topic.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

So at first I voted 1A and 2B. I feel like this question says about not just a person, but an entire team honestly. In my FIRST career, I've been at the very bottom, with a robot that couldn't score all season and ranked last, to most recently winning a regional and earning our spot to the championship. All throughout that career, I've always wanted to be the #1 seed and to win the competition. I was always of the opinion that being as close to that as possible meant we were improving. I'd rather be the dominant team on the field than sit and wait to be chosen, even if it means I don't get the banner. Of course, a trip to championships is a great catalyst for change, but it just feels so much better when you're the one choosing or the one contributing the most.

At championships, I've always had the goal of just making eliminations. So at first I chose option 2B, but now that I think about it, I feel like being just an alliance captain that exits quarters is more satisfying in my mind. It means our bot played well enough (or we got lucky enough I suppose) to seed high among all of the great teams at worlds. A world championship would do wonders for a program even as a 4th robot, but it feels so much sweeter to be a captain and know your program and bots are getting to that level.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

This year my team was picked as a second pick both of our two district events. In the first one we were the last robot and picked up by the 1st seed and we won the event. Despite our 2014 season being successful, this one day of matches has been the most important one for me personally. Due entirely to team 1519's belief that we were worthwhile as partners, our scoring improved, our confidence improved, and I was able be mentored by a team that wins constantly. Soley for this reason, being picked last is completely worth it to me. Also due to this, our next event we improved greatly and in eliminations scored many of our alliance's points. However, we were knocked out in the quarterfinals due to a few mistakes.

Here's the dilemma: Because we were the last pick we earned almost no district points and as a result did not make it to district championships. But I would not have changed that for the world because the amount I learned from the highest seeded teams is so much more than what NECMP is worth.

TL;DR: 1B, 2B because learning is the most important thing, even in the district system

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

Yes, being a captain is pretty satisfying at worlds, I suppose. Our team has competed in the championship playoffs many years, but the past two have been our only time as alliance captains. However, we lost in the quarters both times and that was NOT fun for competitive team members like me.

In 2009 we were the second pick by the #2 alliance that missed Einstein by 6 points. I wasn't on the team then but I would hazard a guess that they had a more inspirational Saturday than we did this past year, regardless of how well we seeded.

I chose 1A and 2B.