Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

My take on the situation is very personal since we have recently gone though similar situations over the past couple seasons. The most notable was winning the championship with 254, 469, and 74 in 2014.


My team (and I) would not have wanted to change anything about our championship run. It was fantastic to play with (and win) with such good partners against some of the other best robots in the world. In 2014 my team was ecstatic to win the championship, but we are also realistic about how fortunate we were. We are also realistic to understand that there were probably 4-5 other teams in the division that could have filled the same role we did on the alliance.

All that being said, one of the things that is continuing to drive us to try and get better is the want to win as the alliance capt or first pick. We know we won't make it there right away but we would like to improve each year. While we didn't have the blue banner season we did last year, being picked in the first round at the championship (even though we lost in the quarter finals) to us was a personal improvement.

For this next year we hope to keep climbing the ladder. If we ended up being the 2nd pick on an alliance (24th or otherwise) and ended up winning again we would celebrate the victory, but still strive for more.



This next part is from me personally (not specifically my team)

The alternative perspective for what it's worth is that I would rather be a low alliance captain than the 4th robot on a winning alliance who didn't play. While it is great to be selected and be part of the alliance I don't think I could ever truly celebrate a championship win without our robot touching the field. I don't want to take anything away from any team who has won or will win (either a division or a championship) as the 4th robot, but for me I would rather play 2 matches on the field and loose than leave my robot on it's cart and win.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

I want to point out that with the introduction of the 4th robot the last 2 years, even though those teams never entered the field, they did serve important functions. Those teams should feel that they had an equal part in the alliances' successes.

In 2014, taking 5136 limited the availability of goalie bots for other teams and gave us the back up for 1114 and an additional option to run a different mix for the autonomous routine.

In 2015, we honestly thought that 5012 would be playing in the Einstein semis and finals and that 1671 would be sitting out those rounds. The games played out differently so that we didn't use 5012. In addition, having 5012 available mooted 1114/148's threat to use their harpoon grabbers.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

I agree with this. In general, I'd love to be the number x seed at an event. Usually, that means you did something right with your team in the design\strategy department and I'd consider that a success. However, I think everyone would love to stamp their ticket to cmp. The time between your last event and cmp can be used to improve as well. And as Ben mentioned earlier in the thread, winning regardless of your final qual rank has its perks as well.

For these reasons, I went with 1b and 2a but I also understand the somewhat of a paradox that creates. So I'll assume that after the regional event the team sat down and brainstormed some improvements knowing they had their CMP tickets punched and figured something out that ends up being successful.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

To add: having a backup robot on Einstein is like having bench players in baseball: you may not use them, but they aren't useless. they could play specialty roles (a really good defensive sub, or a super fast guy), or they could come in for a broken robot/injured player and keep the alliance's/team's hopes of winning alive

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

Not exactly the place to ask, but while on the topic, how did 5012 eliminate that threat? Did they just have a cheesecake fast enough to beat it or was it something game-breaking like the reach around strategy? If it was a traditional can grabber fast enough to match the harpoons, is there any video of it? I haven't seen anyone discuss what they had done to beat the harpoons, only that they could.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

By the time Einstein semis came, we had been cheesecaked twice. Once with 118's cangrabbers on our main bot and again with 1678's cangrabbers on a tethered base. This would allow us to be fully engaged on the cans at least as fast as 118 and 1678 were able to.

If the 900/5012 can battle were to occur, it would leave us and 900 tangled up with all 4 cans at the center of the field, with the possibility of leaving a mess in both landfills. This would have made it difficult for 1114(and 118) to play their games effectively. We would have likely played 1671 in place of 118 as they were more proficient at the feeder station.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

Mutually Assured Destruction. It would have been epic. Y'all had an amazing alliance.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

In that scenario, wouldn't it make the most sense for 1678 to be sitting on the sidelines? With only 3 cans per alliance, getting the maximum value from each can would be incredibly important. Or are you assuming that 1671 is successful at building 3 42-point stacks, and that 1678 can outscore 118 from the feeder station in raw totes?

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

Well if the landfill is a mess with the 900/5012 can battle, 118 can't score that many totes from the landfill, so I guess 1678 could of outscored 118 from the feeder station. Also, 1678 can stacks to 6 I believe when just stacking totes. If you sit out 1678 in place of 5012, you take the risk of 118 creating stacks from a messy landfill or creating stacks from the feeder station (Which I think they were not capable of. Correct me I'm wrong). I think in this scenario, 1678, 1671, and 5012 would of been the best bet, but I think this alliance would run out of totes from the feeder station.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

1A/2A for what I'd choose personally... 1B/2B for the program and what the students could use right now. Echoing other sentiments, I don't want to diminish the win for teams that achieved it as a 3rd/4th pick, but being selected as that 3rd/4th robot is more heavily influenced by luck than by consistently striving to improve to where you can win events as an AC or 1st pick. Long term, I'd like to be a problem that wins consistently, which equates to 1A/2A.

That being said, what if that win in 1B/2B is what inspires the next round of freshman/sophomores to really step it up the following years to dramatically improve? Or outside of the robotics team, just inspires them period as they move on to college?

Sorry for the stream of consciousness, but I guess what it equates to is that I want our team to perform well to inspire my students. I think that the best way to do that long term is to recognize incremental improvement via better placement in tournaments (without winning), and I'd never intentionally try to play to the 24th spot just to increase my odds of winning... but if it sorted out such that we lucked into Einstein... I don't really care how we got there, the kids would be ecstatic.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

I've seen cases where the last pick wasn't picked for the robot or even the driver team... expertise, scouting data, and "good luck" all come to mind.

Say 217 at champs in 2013... I remember reading that among the reasons 1986 and 1538 gambled on them (with a broken robot) was their experience and "knack for winning". Had the repairs held up, it's very possible 1538 could have pulled a 67 style sweep, or at least became one a handful of teams that have both made Einstein and won Chairman's in the same year.

No competent alliance picks the 4th bot randomly... they always are picked for a reason.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

Although 1678 is probably faster than 118 at the feeder station, the Robonauts reveal video shows that they still have the capability to stack at a competitive speed from the human loader. If 1671 was entrusted to spit out 3 superstacks, which they are more than capable of, that leaves their partner with 12 totes left behind the alliance wall. Both 1678 and 118 could take care of those, but 118 could also get any available landfill totes and/or build the third superstack, so unless the alliance was absolutely sure every landfill tote would be unavailable and that 1671 could produce three stacks, I would run 118.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

My assumption would be for 1671 to handle 2x 42 stacks from the left station (plus change), and 118 to handle 1x 42 stack from the right station (plus change and loose bins in the landfill). With 1678, you're limiting the score of at least one of your bins to a 36 point stack, rather than a 42, and possibly hindering your ability to collect whatever loose landfill bins are accessible.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

Thanks for correcting me, I thought 118 was landfill only. Yeah, I mentioned they would run out of totes, but with 118 more than capable of using the HP station, I would put them in place of 1678 too because if they do run out of totes 118 can try and make stacks from the landfill. 118 provides a much more flexible robot, whether it's creating capped 6 stacks from the HP station or the landfill. I agree with you that running 118 over 1678 is a smarter choice in the 900/5012 can battle situation.

Re: Alliance Captain versus last pick in Alliance Selection
 

that makes no sense, though. you're losing 2 stacks worth of points... In a good game, 1671 can put up 3 stacks of 6 (I've seen video of them doing so). if 118 was not on the field, I would probably expect them to do 3 stacks of 6 from the feeder, dealing with all of the containers. I'd then have 1678 do 2 uncapped 6 stacks, and then try to get something out of the messed up landfill, since they have a wheeled collector. but this is all speculation, really, since it didnt happen

Edit:

that works too