Chief Delphi - 17 y/o Mentor?

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Re: 17 y/o Mentor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1494277)

Not enough if you read the rules carefully enough (emphasis mine):

Not if the normally charged rate is $0.00...and I'm not so sure the OP has ever charged to be a mentor, so the normal rate can't be challenged. Also, FIRST wants to be as inclusive as possible, so I'm not so sure why you're making this such an issue.

Re: 17 y/o Mentor?

Note that in the rules, there is no definition for "members of the team". FIRST only requires two mentors to register via TIMS - the primary and secondary contacts. FIRST only requires signed release forms (either paper or digital) from mentors that attend a FIRST event (regional, district, champs, kickoff). It is entirely possible to be a mentor for a team without doing any of this!. In fact, my team has had a mentor for a couple of years now that never bothered to register in TIMS, as it's not required, and has never filled out a release form as he's never attended an event (work conflict she can't get out of). He still followed all required rules and procedures to join the team, though!

The way the rule can and should be unforced is through spot checking at the competition. If an inspector sees something that was beautifully designed and CNC'd, they can ask the students where they had it made - the answer should clearly define what appears on the BOM.

Re: 17 y/o Mentor?

My advice to OP:

Take a year off to mentor a different team or volunteer with your state's FRC program as a whole. The larger programs always need volunteers. FLL and FTC are also options to volunteer for. Come back and visit your team infrequently to see how they are doing without you (Hopefully good) and then come back in a year with a completely different perspective. Do you have to listen to me? No.

My advice to the rest of you. Read the manual:

Quote:

Originally Posted by R11

The BOM cost of each non-KOP item must be calculated based on the unit fair market value for the material and/or labor,
except for labor provided by Team members (including sponsor employees who are members of the team), members of other
Teams, event provided Machine Shops and shipping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R11 Blue Box

EXAMPLE 1: A Team orders a custom bracket made by a company to the Team’s specification. The company’s material cost and normally charged labor rate apply.

EXAMPLE 2: A Team receives a donated sensor. The company would normally sell this item for $52 USD, which is therefore its fair market value.

EXAMPLE 3: Special price discounts from National Instruments and other FRC Suppliers are being offered to all FIRST Teams. The discounted purchase price of items from these sources may be used in the additional parts accounting calculations.

EXAMPLE 4: A Team purchases steel bar stock for $10 USD and has it machined by a local machine shop. The machine shop is not considered a team Sponsor, but donates two (2) hours of expended labor anyway. The Team must include the estimated normal cost of the labor as if it were paid to the machine shop, and add it to the $10 USD.

EXAMPLE 5: A Team purchases steel bar stock for $10 USD and has it machined by a local machine shop that is a recognized Sponsor of the Team. If the machinists are considered members of the Team, their labor costs do not apply. The total applicable cost for the part would be $10 USD.

It is in the best interests of the Teams and FIRST to form relationships with as many organizations as possible. Teams are encouraged to be expansive in recruiting and including organizations in their team, as that exposes more people and organizations to FIRST. Recognizing supporting companies as Sponsors of, and members in, the Team is encouraged, even if the involvement of the Sponsor is solely through the donation of fabrication labor.

EXAMPLE 6: A Team purchases steel bar stock for $10 USD and has it machined by another Team. The total applicable cost for the part would be $10 USD.

EXAMPLE 7: A Team purchases a 4 by 4 ft sheet of aluminum, but only uses a piece 10 by 10 in. on their ROBOT. The Team identifies a source that sells aluminum sheet in 1 by 1 ft pieces. The Team may cost their part on the basis of a 1 by 1 ft piece, even though they cut the piece from a larger bulk purchase. They do not have to account for the entire 4 by 4 ft bulk purchase item.

Re: 17 y/o Mentor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Hill (Post 1494289)

I'm not so sure why you're making this such an issue.

Mostly as an off-season RTM exercise. Case in point:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1494293)

Note that in the rules, there is no definition for "members of the team". FIRST only requires two mentors to register via TIMS - the primary and secondary contacts.

The more times you go through the rules, the more things you learn about them. FWIW, our team has always asked all mentors to enroll in TIMS. I don't think you get as much e-mail as the primary and secondary contacts, but there's a lot of good info that comes that way to other mentors as well.

Re: 17 y/o Mentor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1494148)

This might be an issue depending on your role and how scrupulously your team follows the bill of materials rules. I haven't read the rules for a specific year with this situation in mind, but IIRC the general rule is that student team member and mentor labor are "free", but labor from other sources must be charged on the BoM, even if volunteered/donated.

If you recall, there was an extensive debate last build season about what was free labor. I believe the term "Cheese Cake" was mentioned extensively. My interpretation of the upshot was if you are remotely connected to First, your labor can be counted as free. As others have mentioned the mentor definition is pretty loose.

The current rules on for the BOM so convoluted, it should take a major fail to hold the inspection. YLRIMV (your lead robot inspector may vary)

Re: 17 y/o Mentor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1494310)

If you recall, there was an extensive debate last build season about what was free labor. I believe the term "Cheese Cake" was mentioned extensively.

The cheesecake issue wasn't whether or not labor had to be entered on the BoM: the answer was clearly that it was free, as the labor was provided by "members of other teams". The question was whether or not items provided by another team during an event (whether manufactured before or during) could be used on the robot at all. The initial ruling on Q461 from the GDC, in accordance with the rules as written, was no, no, no, and no (it was a four-part question). CD was in uproar for the next 24-48 hours until the rule R14 and R17 were changed/added by team update on 17 March and the Q&A answers modified to yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Re: 17 y/o Mentor?

I’d like to thank everyone for their concern - in all regards - but I feel I need to clarify my original post. I am trying to register on TIMS so I am able to pick up the KOP on kickoff, not to be a full time mentor. Last season, Mentor #1 on our team had to pick it up, effectively missing a large portion of the team’s kickoff. (Mentor #2 was otherwise occupied.)

I've read the threads advising against first-year college mentors and I’ve read the threads advising against mentoring your old team. I started this thread to find out if I can register on TIMS at 17 and see if anyone else has been in my position.

Thank you again for looking out for me, and I don't mean to sound unappreciative of anyone's input. I am looking forward to staying involved in FIRST through college organizations and volunteering at events, not mentoring my high school team full time.

Re: 17 y/o Mentor?

There is another alternative, if you can't get TIMS to register you as a mentor. With appropriate prior arrangements (letter, contacting appropriate parties, etc.), it is possible for one team to pick up another team's KOP. If you've got any local teams going to the same kickoff, it may be worth while to make those arrangements.

Re: 17 y/o Mentor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1494343)

Thank you very much!

Re: 17 y/o Mentor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celia (Post 1494341)

You should definitely start by contacting the local planning committee in charge of the kickoff in question. Let them know what the issue is, how you would prefer to solve it, and ask them what steps you and your team need to take to make sure there won't be any issues picking up the kit. Ultimately, they will need to be aware of and buy into whatever solution is decided upon, as they'll be the ones at kickoff distributing the kit you need to pick up!

Re: 17 y/o Mentor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celia (Post 1494341)

Your best bet is to email First and ask them directly. Realize a lot of stuff written on the first web site is poorly written & is not their actual policy.

The requirement is the first and second contacts be 18. The permission form in TIM apparently has provision for under 18. Once you are registered in Tims one of the primary mentors will have to associate you with the team.

This may not solve your problem since the 2015 rule was an adult mentor has to sign for the KOP. Might be something to do with under 18s cannot sign binding contracts in states. (slight simplification) The rule did not seem to apply to a surrogate team pick up. So once again you are back to asking First for their true policy.