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Celia 20-08-2015 15:18
17 y/o Mentor?
 
I was invited to be a mentor on my team recently, but on the first page of TIMS it says you must be 18 or older to continue registering. I am 17, turning 18 next year after the build season. I've graduated high school and am starting college in two weeks, and we all know first year college students mentor. Has anyone been in this situation before? Is there any way I can register on TIMS at 17? Or do I have to wait until next year?

I apologize if this has been addressed before, I did a quick search and didn't see anything. Thank you for your help!

Christopher149 20-08-2015 15:27
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celia (Post 1493963)
I was invited to be a mentor on my team recently, but on the first page of TIMS it says you must be 18 or older to continue registering. I am 17, turning 18 next year after the build season. I've graduated high school and am starting college in two weeks, and we all know first year college students mentor. Has anyone been in this situation before? Is there any way I can register on TIMS at 17? Or do I have to wait until next year?

I apologize if this has been addressed before, I did a quick search and didn't see anything. Thank you for your help!
How much after build season do you turn 18 (like, after competitions)?

Myself, I turned 18 a few days before Stop Build Day my first year of college, and signed up on TIMS at that point (having mentored the whole season until then).

This year, a team near me had a first-year student who was 17 the entire time - I think he just signed up on STIMS even though he was in college. (not saying this is the best way)

Celia 20-08-2015 15:44
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher149 (Post 1493965)
How much after build season do you turn 18 (like, after competitions)?

Myself, I turned 18 a few days before Stop Build Day my first year of college, and signed up on TIMS at that point (having mentored the whole season until then).

This year, a team near me had a first-year student who was 17 the entire time - I think he just signed up on STIMS even though he was in college. (not saying this is the best way)
I turn 18 in March, right in the middle of districts :rolleyes: I hadn't thought of just mentoring unregistered, it's something I'll think about.

Dale 20-08-2015 16:19
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Good for you for wanting to stay involved with FIRST and help your team. A warning, though, there are plenty of college students who have found mentoring a team in a serious (multiple times a week) way wasn't good for their mental health or grades. You'll be plenty busy adjusting to college where the workload will likely be significantly higher than high school and the time professors spend caring about you is less. The work on your FIRST team will likely be FAR more interesting than some of the intro classes you'll be taking. That can equal trouble. Every person and team is different, just make sure you have your priorities straight. This thread discusses this in detail.

IKE 20-08-2015 18:40
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
I would love to have you inspect at an event or two. Volunteering is a great way to stay involved, but on a more limited timescale, and as a plus, you meet a lot of the other event staff which is incredibly helpful as a mentor to have really good POCs.

Basel A 20-08-2015 18:59
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Celia, I believe you mentioned somewhere you're coming to UMich? There's a ton you can do to stay in FIRST without mentoring a team. We've started a student org here (FAMNM/FIRST Alumni and Mentors Network at Michigan) to support local teams and we'll be holding workshops and events including a kickoff this January, and we'd be thrilled to have you help out.

If you are specifically interested in mentoring, there's about a dozen teams within the vicinity of Ann Arbor (obviously a much nicer commute), plus a program that provides a workspace and college mentors to Detroit-area teams. I know you may feel a special tug to keep working with your team, but I think you'll find it beneficial to your personal development to branch out into a new team. I know I did.

Either way, make sure to come to a FAMNM meeting (I can PM you the details if you're interested) and we can talk.

Alan Anderson 21-08-2015 12:24
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
My knee-jerk reaction: don't do it.

I can't judge whether you have the discipline to keep your team affiliation from interfering with your responsibilities in college, so I won't list that as a reason. Even without it, I still have several points to make.

First, as a beginning college student you probably don't yet have the experience to be a true mentor.

Second, as someone the same age as some of the team's students, you risk not being able to have an appropriate perspective when required.

Third, if you slide directly from being a student member to a non-student member without a significant intervening event or a season away from the team, you're setting yourself up to be less of a mentor and more of a hanger-on.

If you do want to keep ties to your team and the FRC community after you graduate high school, consider just being a volunteer and not an official mentor. Don't take on any leadership roles with the team. Don't expect to be given any real authority. Instead of being sad about losing the experience of being an FRC team member, embrace the opportunity for new experiences and significant personal growth.

Or just do what you want to do; that's good too.

Chris is me 21-08-2015 18:19
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
I was a 17 year old "mentor". I think I just didn't fill out anything on TIMS, and I did a paper consent form for events and stuff. It was awhile ago though.

If you're gonna do it, I would try and take a bit more of a backseat role your first year, as you learn how the team works and how to actually be a mentor. You learn more on your second team than you'd ever expect, it's too easy to just become a big student. It's also too easy to fall behind in college or deprive yourself of college experiences (clubs, friends, etc).

GeeTwo 23-08-2015 09:10
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celia (Post 1493966)
I turn 18 in March, right in the middle of districts :rolleyes: I hadn't thought of just mentoring unregistered, it's something I'll think about.
This might be an issue depending on your role and how scrupulously your team follows the bill of materials rules. I haven't read the rules for a specific year with this situation in mind, but IIRC the general rule is that student team member and mentor labor are "free", but labor from other sources must be charged on the BoM, even if volunteered/donated.

Oblarg 25-08-2015 01:50
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1494148)
This might be an issue depending on your role and how scrupulously your team follows the bill of materials rules. I haven't read the rules for a specific year with this situation in mind, but IIRC the general rule is that student team member and mentor labor are "free", but labor from other sources must be charged on the BoM, even if volunteered/donated.
I'm going to make the possibly contentious statement that this is one of those situations where strict adherence to the rule would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. This clearly isn't what that rule was meant to do.

Taylor 25-08-2015 07:19
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
I am mentored by individuals younger than 18 all the time.

Chris is me 25-08-2015 07:41
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1494148)
This might be an issue depending on your role and how scrupulously your team follows the bill of materials rules. I haven't read the rules for a specific year with this situation in mind, but IIRC the general rule is that student team member and mentor labor are "free", but labor from other sources must be charged on the BoM, even if volunteered/donated.
This is an absurd interpretation of the rule, and anyone attempting to enforce this would be laughed out of the inspection station. Neither the letter nor the spirit of the rule suggests that you're supposed to charge for labor in this circumstance.

Michael Hill 25-08-2015 08:26
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oblarg (Post 1494212)
I'm going to make the possibly contentious statement that this is one of those situations where strict adherence to the rule would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. This clearly isn't what that rule was meant to do.
Or if anyone asks, be a "sponsor" who wishes to remain anonymous.

Monochron 25-08-2015 11:33
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1494218)
I am mentored by individuals younger than 18 all the time.
QFT

GeeTwo 25-08-2015 22:43
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celia (Post 1493966)
I turn 18 in March, right in the middle of districts :rolleyes: I hadn't thought of just mentoring unregistered, it's something I'll think about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1494148)
This might be an issue depending on your role and how scrupulously your team follows the bill of materials rules. I haven't read the rules for a specific year with this situation in mind, but IIRC the general rule is that student team member and mentor labor are "free", but labor from other sources must be charged on the BoM, even if volunteered/donated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1494219)
This is an absurd interpretation of the rule, and anyone attempting to enforce this would be laughed out of the inspection station. Neither the letter nor the spirit of the rule suggests that you're supposed to charge for labor in this circumstance.
I intentionally cited aggressive rules interpretation within Celia's team, not by inspectors. After all, unless the team presents a work log of everyone who touched the robot, how could an inspector challenge the BoM based on labor provided by a non-student, non-mentor, especially if provided within the team's build space? This is a clinical example of an unenforceable rule. We do actually have this sort of converation on our team from time to time. There have been cases where we decided to internally enforce an unenforceable rule, and cases where we have decided that we were OK within the spirit, if not the letter, of the rules. I wasn't trying to say it was wrong, just that a pernickety, prudish, or offended mentor or member of the team could challenge it.

On the other hand, we do use the most severe interpretation of this same rule to induce our student members and mentors to sign up before start build day in STIMS or TIMS, as appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Hill (Post 1494222)
Or if anyone asks, be a "sponsor" who wishes to remain anonymous.
Not enough if you read the rules carefully enough (emphasis mine):
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2015 R11
The BOM cost of each non-KOP item must be calculated based on the unit fair market value for the material and/or labor, except for labor provided by Team members (including sponsor employees who are members of the team), members of other Teams, event provided Machine Shops and shipping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 1494218)
I am mentored by individuals younger than 18 all the time.
I won't say mentored, because that implies an ongoing, directional relationship, but I have absolutely learned many specific things from or through my children, the students I mentor, and other children, including a six-year old whom I saw for less than two minutes twenty years ago; in one word he gave me the best sermon of my life (PM if you want details). It was a few years before that that I learned what I eventually came to internally call "The Socratic Truth": the best way to gain deep knowledge about anything is to do it, then teach it to someone else.

Michael Hill 26-08-2015 06:08
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1494277)
Not enough if you read the rules carefully enough (emphasis mine):
Not if the normally charged rate is $0.00...and I'm not so sure the OP has ever charged to be a mentor, so the normal rate can't be challenged. Also, FIRST wants to be as inclusive as possible, so I'm not so sure why you're making this such an issue.

Jon Stratis 26-08-2015 07:54
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Note that in the rules, there is no definition for "members of the team". FIRST only requires two mentors to register via TIMS - the primary and secondary contacts. FIRST only requires signed release forms (either paper or digital) from mentors that attend a FIRST event (regional, district, champs, kickoff). It is entirely possible to be a mentor for a team without doing any of this!. In fact, my team has had a mentor for a couple of years now that never bothered to register in TIMS, as it's not required, and has never filled out a release form as he's never attended an event (work conflict she can't get out of). He still followed all required rules and procedures to join the team, though!

The way the rule can and should be unforced is through spot checking at the competition. If an inspector sees something that was beautifully designed and CNC'd, they can ask the students where they had it made - the answer should clearly define what appears on the BOM.

marshall 26-08-2015 08:15
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
My advice to OP:

Take a year off to mentor a different team or volunteer with your state's FRC program as a whole. The larger programs always need volunteers. FLL and FTC are also options to volunteer for. Come back and visit your team infrequently to see how they are doing without you (Hopefully good) and then come back in a year with a completely different perspective. Do you have to listen to me? No.

My advice to the rest of you. Read the manual:

Quote:
Originally Posted by R11
The BOM cost of each non-KOP item must be calculated based on the unit fair market value for the material and/or labor,
except for labor provided by Team members (including sponsor employees who are members of the team), members of other
Teams, event provided Machine Shops and shipping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R11 Blue Box
EXAMPLE 1: A Team orders a custom bracket made by a company to the Team’s specification. The company’s material cost and normally charged labor rate apply.

EXAMPLE 2: A Team receives a donated sensor. The company would normally sell this item for $52 USD, which is therefore its fair market value.

EXAMPLE 3: Special price discounts from National Instruments and other FRC Suppliers are being offered to all FIRST Teams. The discounted purchase price of items from these sources may be used in the additional parts accounting calculations.

EXAMPLE 4: A Team purchases steel bar stock for $10 USD and has it machined by a local machine shop. The machine shop is not considered a team Sponsor, but donates two (2) hours of expended labor anyway. The Team must include the estimated normal cost of the labor as if it were paid to the machine shop, and add it to the $10 USD.

EXAMPLE 5: A Team purchases steel bar stock for $10 USD and has it machined by a local machine shop that is a recognized Sponsor of the Team. If the machinists are considered members of the Team, their labor costs do not apply. The total applicable cost for the part would be $10 USD.

It is in the best interests of the Teams and FIRST to form relationships with as many organizations as possible. Teams are encouraged to be expansive in recruiting and including organizations in their team, as that exposes more people and organizations to FIRST. Recognizing supporting companies as Sponsors of, and members in, the Team is encouraged, even if the involvement of the Sponsor is solely through the donation of fabrication labor.

EXAMPLE 6: A Team purchases steel bar stock for $10 USD and has it machined by another Team. The total applicable cost for the part would be $10 USD.

EXAMPLE 7: A Team purchases a 4 by 4 ft sheet of aluminum, but only uses a piece 10 by 10 in. on their ROBOT. The Team identifies a source that sells aluminum sheet in 1 by 1 ft pieces. The Team may cost their part on the basis of a 1 by 1 ft piece, even though they cut the piece from a larger bulk purchase. They do not have to account for the entire 4 by 4 ft bulk purchase item.

GeeTwo 26-08-2015 08:16
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Hill (Post 1494289)
I'm not so sure why you're making this such an issue.
Mostly as an off-season RTM exercise. Case in point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1494293)
Note that in the rules, there is no definition for "members of the team". FIRST only requires two mentors to register via TIMS - the primary and secondary contacts.
The more times you go through the rules, the more things you learn about them. FWIW, our team has always asked all mentors to enroll in TIMS. I don't think you get as much e-mail as the primary and secondary contacts, but there's a lot of good info that comes that way to other mentors as well.

FrankJ 26-08-2015 11:27
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1494148)
This might be an issue depending on your role and how scrupulously your team follows the bill of materials rules. I haven't read the rules for a specific year with this situation in mind, but IIRC the general rule is that student team member and mentor labor are "free", but labor from other sources must be charged on the BoM, even if volunteered/donated.
If you recall, there was an extensive debate last build season about what was free labor. I believe the term "Cheese Cake" was mentioned extensively. My interpretation of the upshot was if you are remotely connected to First, your labor can be counted as free. As others have mentioned the mentor definition is pretty loose.

The current rules on for the BOM so convoluted, it should take a major fail to hold the inspection. YLRIMV (your lead robot inspector may vary)

GeeTwo 26-08-2015 16:40
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1494310)
If you recall, there was an extensive debate last build season about what was free labor. I believe the term "Cheese Cake" was mentioned extensively.
The cheesecake issue wasn't whether or not labor had to be entered on the BoM: the answer was clearly that it was free, as the labor was provided by "members of other teams". The question was whether or not items provided by another team during an event (whether manufactured before or during) could be used on the robot at all. The initial ruling on Q461 from the GDC, in accordance with the rules as written, was no, no, no, and no (it was a four-part question). CD was in uproar for the next 24-48 hours until the rule R14 and R17 were changed/added by team update on 17 March and the Q&A answers modified to yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Celia 26-08-2015 23:17
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
I’d like to thank everyone for their concern - in all regards - but I feel I need to clarify my original post. I am trying to register on TIMS so I am able to pick up the KOP on kickoff, not to be a full time mentor. Last season, Mentor #1 on our team had to pick it up, effectively missing a large portion of the team’s kickoff. (Mentor #2 was otherwise occupied.)

I've read the threads advising against first-year college mentors and I’ve read the threads advising against mentoring your old team. I started this thread to find out if I can register on TIMS at 17 and see if anyone else has been in my position.

Thank you again for looking out for me, and I don't mean to sound unappreciative of anyone's input. I am looking forward to staying involved in FIRST through college organizations and volunteering at events, not mentoring my high school team full time.

EricH 26-08-2015 23:29
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
There is another alternative, if you can't get TIMS to register you as a mentor. With appropriate prior arrangements (letter, contacting appropriate parties, etc.), it is possible for one team to pick up another team's KOP. If you've got any local teams going to the same kickoff, it may be worth while to make those arrangements.

Celia 26-08-2015 23:38
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1494343)
There is another alternative, if you can't get TIMS to register you as a mentor. With appropriate prior arrangements (letter, contacting appropriate parties, etc.), it is possible for one team to pick up another team's KOP. If you've got any local teams going to the same kickoff, it may be worth while to make those arrangements.
Thank you very much!

Jon Stratis 27-08-2015 07:57
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celia (Post 1494341)
I’d like to thank everyone for their concern - in all regards - but I feel I need to clarify my original post. I am trying to register on TIMS so I am able to pick up the KOP on kickoff, not to be a full time mentor. Last season, Mentor #1 on our team had to pick it up, effectively missing a large portion of the team’s kickoff. (Mentor #2 was otherwise occupied.)
You should definitely start by contacting the local planning committee in charge of the kickoff in question. Let them know what the issue is, how you would prefer to solve it, and ask them what steps you and your team need to take to make sure there won't be any issues picking up the kit. Ultimately, they will need to be aware of and buy into whatever solution is decided upon, as they'll be the ones at kickoff distributing the kit you need to pick up!

FrankJ 27-08-2015 12:23
Re: 17 y/o Mentor?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celia (Post 1494341)
I’d like to thank everyone for their concern - in all regards - but I feel I need to clarify my original post. I am trying to register on TIMS so I am able to pick up the KOP on kickoff, not to be a full time mentor. Last season, Mentor #1 on our team had to pick it up, effectively missing a large portion of the team’s kickoff. (Mentor #2 was otherwise occupied.).
Your best bet is to email First and ask them directly. Realize a lot of stuff written on the first web site is poorly written & is not their actual policy.

The requirement is the first and second contacts be 18. The permission form in TIM apparently has provision for under 18. Once you are registered in Tims one of the primary mentors will have to associate you with the team.

This may not solve your problem since the 2015 rule was an adult mentor has to sign for the KOP. Might be something to do with under 18s cannot sign binding contracts in states. (slight simplification) The rule did not seem to apply to a surrogate team pick up. So once again you are back to asking First for their true policy.


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