spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

The team took on an off-season project that includes a T-shirt gun. It's all working, but the range is a little short. We're using a sprinkler valve to shoot (Rainbird, I believe), shot tank is going to about 50-70 PSI...

One of the students in town from another team with spudgun experience thinks that part of the problem is that the stock valve does not open quickly enough, and suggested making one of the mods commonly seen on youtube; it appears that the mods involve not actuating the valve with the solenoid, but venting the back side of the diaphragm to atmosphere to snap it open. The problem there is that you need a smaller valve to open the back side; the examples on youtube are all manually actuated.

Has anyone done a sprinkler valve mod, but kept things under computer control? I think I know how to do it using a FESTO or SMC to vent the back side, but I sure don't want to reinvent any wheels. ("I'm a programmer, Jim, not a design engineer....")

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

Stop right there!

Do not use a plastic sprinkler valve (designed for water) to switch air pressure. When the valve fails, it will explode and fragment, making this a serious safety hazard.

We used a valve similar to this for our air cannon (we used a 3/4" version). Note that it is rated for air as well as water.

For the same reasons, do not use PVC or similar plastic pipes to carry air pressure.

Also, in general, larger valves will allow you to get more kick out of a given air pressure. A good rule of thumb to start is to have the valve (and all plumbing from the air tank to the barrel) be at least 1/3 the diameter of the barrel.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

so what did you use for barrel and 1/3xbarrel diameter tubing?

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

We originally had a 2" i.d. barrel and 3/4" port valves. We increased later to a 3" barrel, which helped with the footballs we were launching by reducing friction, but did not really increase the flight length of t-shirts that we had to roll "larger" to fit. We believe this is because the air flow rate was limited by the valve. Our calculations show that we could get better range if we went to 1" valves, but we haven't tested this out yet.

We also figured out how to roll t-shirts to shoot in the cannon that requires no tape, thread, zip tie, or other binding. Lots of other good tips in that thread.

We're in the process of improving for upcoming football games. A picture of the current cannon (taken Monday evening) is here. We did not change the barrels out for metal yet, but will do so before making the switch to 1" valves. We definitely do not have any PVC upstream of the valve. We've added a speaker this year, new wheels, steerable turret, LEDs, and are working on a cowling that will make it look more like a tank.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

What kind of range are you getting with that? We got up to around 300 ft. with that same valve and proper weighting of our payload.

I'll agree with GeeTwo though, you should go with a higher rated valve for safety reasons.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

Why is running air at 70PSI more dangerous than running water at 70PSI?

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

We just use a large solenoid. The back release valve is unnecessary, in our experience.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

This is no different to using the Clippard air tanks or most other FRC actuator (electric or pneumatic) Exceed specifications and you're gonna have a bad day.

Standard water mains operate around 55-75 psi, but reach as high as 100 psi, and sprinkler valves have to be designed to function in any regional pressure condition, with safety overhead for manufacturing tolerance reasons and otherwise. Since the valve will handle 100 psi and could likely handle 120, I don't think 50-70 could be an issue.

Heck, when a sprinkler valve closes, it has to absorb all of the inertia in the flowing water as well. That just means more pressure it has to be designed to handle.

I realize that the valves aren't air rated, but that really just means nobody tried. The principle behind pressure in compressible air and incompressible water is different, but the forces at the valve are the same (psi). There is no reason it would explode at those pressures, water or otherwise.

TL;DR, if you put 300 psi behind it, yeah it will probably explode, and yeah you would get hurt. But at 70 psi, I wouldn't be worried.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

Air is a compressible fluid. Water is not. Rapid expansion of compressed air when released will turn debris into shrapnel. Do not use any valve unless it is rated for compressed air.

David

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

Here is the Robo Lions Team 1261 T Shirt Bot

http://prhsrobotics.com/outreach/tshirtbot/


Uses 3/4" air solenoids with duel stage pressure reduction from a 3000 psi scuba tank. All barrels are encased in 1/2" poly carbonate and are 3" in diameter which are polycarb as well.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

There are those who will tell you that 70psi air pressure is more likely to cause a rupture than 70PSI of water pressure at the time of switching. I don't disbelieve their arguments, but the much more compelling argument to me is this: Air at 70psi has a lot more energy than water at 70psi. That is, should the thing rupture, there's a whole lot more potential for damage.

For scale purposes, I shall use a single FRC Clippard tank (574 ml). I shall also simplify the problem to assume that everything is at the same temperature, 0C. It's a bit colder than the typical FRC playing field, but if you increase the temperature or recognize that air compressors heat the air up as they go, the situation only gets more dangerous.

Acknowledging the hazards of info from Wikipedia, and promising that I will verify them against the CRC Handbook on Monday when I get back to the office:
70 psi is equal to 483 kPa (from google units, but agrees well with my understanding that 1 atm ~ 14.2 psi and also ~ 10⁵ Pa).

Finally, recall that Energy is the ability to do work, so let's caculuate how much work each can do:

Let's assume that compressibility scales linearly with pressure over the range given for water. This means that at 70 psi, the compressibility at the end point is: (5.1 - (5.1 - 3.9) * 0.483 / 100) * 10^-10Pa^-1 ~ 5.095 x 10^-10Pa^-1. This is very little change (much less than the implied resolution), so I'll use a constant 5.1 * 10^-10Pa. This means that a clippard tank full of water at 70 psig which is allowed to expand to ambient will increase by about 574 ml * 5.1*10^-10Pa^-1 * 483 kPa = .141 ml (or about 1/7 of a cubic centimeter!). If it were pushing a piston it would do .141 ml * 483 kPa / 2 = 34 lPa = 34mJ, or .034 joules. For those who think in English units, a joule is about three-quarters of a foot pound, so this would lift one pound about 5/16 of an inch.

Now, let's do the same thing with air. To keep the math simpler, I'll assume that the temperature remains constant. Then, as we are talking about the same mass of air, we can use Boyle's Law, which is that PV = constant. For Boyle's Law, we must use total pressure, so that our end pressure is 1 atmosphere, or 101 kPa, and our starting pressure is 483 kPa + 101 kPa = 594 kPa. Our initial volume is again 574 ml. We have: 574 ml * 594 kPa = V * 101 kPa. Solving for V, we get 3370 ml. That is, the gas expanded by 2800 ml, or nearly three quarts. Because the pressure does not decrease linearly with volume, the average force is not just half the initial force, but a bit less. The work that can be done by this expansion is 332 l kPa, or 332 J. In English units, this will lift one pound about 244 feet!

In the actual case of an exploding tank or valve, the temperature will not remain constant. The rapidly expanding air will cool, decreasing the pressure and therefore the amount of mechanical energy released. Air is about 40 percent more compressible in the isothermal (constant temperature) than in the adiabatic (constant entropy, or very rapid) case. This means that the actual amount of energy released will be closer to 150 foot-pounds, but there's still five orders of magnitude more energy in the air than the water.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

I recommend these valves. http://www.airbagit.com/Brass-Air-Va...irvalve-06.htm They are made of brass, rated for 300psi of air pressure, open quickly and are easy to modulate. Plus they are designed to be able to replace the diaphragm. http://www.airbagit.com/Air-Valve-Di...irvalve-16.htm

You can use a couple of them if you need more flow. We used them on my previous team when playing around with a t-shirt cannon and you could adjust the distance based on the length of the electrical pulse to the coil because they were so quick acting. In our case we used 4 which fed 4 ports on the back of the barrel. We did play around with only activating 2 solenoids at a time and the performance was adequate at that level in my opinion.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

This is a commonly asked question. and the reason is 2 fold:

1st is the compressibility of air vs the incompressibility of water. This means that when a vessel holding pressure water ruptures, all of the pressure is relieved with only a small fraction of expansion ( IE pushing of the shards). When a vessel holding air ruptures, the pressure is released over time carrying debris with it.

2nd is the failure mode of most plastics. When brittle objects rupture (such as PVC) the failure mode is to create shards that are sharp. Since air does not relieve all the pressure at once, it carries these shards with it as it expands to fill the 'new' area (relieves the pressure). This creates high velocity sharp projectiles .

Believe me when I say there is VERY GOOD REASON that most plastic volumes carry the warning that they are only pressure rated for liquids (take it from someone who has seen this up close ... and is lucky enough to still be here).

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

Just to further explain the danger of compressed air:

A sufficient volume of air at single-digit IWC (Inches of Water Column) can, if released suddenly, make its presence known throughout a brand-new building (by shaking if I recall correctly) with the building's biggest door wide open to vent any sudden releases of air straight outside. I wasn't in that building at the time--but I heard about it.

1 IWC = 0.036 PSI per Google's converter (I rounded).



And the item containing said air was, in fact, rated for gases.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

We use an Asco 2/2 series main pulse valve. 8353C035. It is intended for back pulsing dust collectors. High flow rate & fast acting.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

ah. There's the answer. It's not that the valve is more likely to fail at 70PSI air than 70 PSI water, it's that *if* it fails, the damage is more catastrophic. makes sense.

ok, so I shouldn't use Schedule 40 PVC for the tank or anything "upstream" of the shooting valve, what *do* I use?

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

For what it's worth, my team has been using 1" sprinkler solenoids on our T-shirt cannon robot for over 3 years without any problems from the valves. (We use them up to 120 Psi)

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

We're using mostly galvanized pipe; I think there are a couple of pieces of black iron in there, too. Here's a picture with the cowling off.

We're getting air from a scuba tank, using a regular scuba regulator to get down to about 170 psi. We then use a regulator similar to the FRC KoP regulators to bring it down below 60 psi (we typically shoot about 50 psi) and direct that to a cast iron accumulator (painted green, next to the scuba tank). I believe we then have 1-1/2" galvanized to the tee, and 1" galvanized to the 3/4" solenoid valves (you can only see the brass side here, right next to Leevi's hand; the solenoid is behind that). Then there's a 3/4" quick disconnect, some factory-terminated reinforced rubber hose, a black iron street elbow, and finally the first bit of PVC in the expansion to the barrel. We will likely be switching to all galvanized (apart from the tank, solenoid valve, and hose) for next year.

Another reason not to use PVC, as has been noted before, is its failure mode. It tends to break, whereas most metals and fiber/wire reinforced hoses will tear. Therefore, PVC and similar plastics are more likely to become shrapnel than one twisted and torn piece.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

NASA ran over 100 shuttle missions before a chunk of shuttle insulation struck the leading wing edge, resulting in the demise of Columbia and her crew. Just because you get a way with something for a while doesn't make it safe.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

True, but everything on the cannon is rated for a much greater pressure than we ever put through it including the sprinkler valve. we also have built in points of failure to avoid any PVC explosions or fragmentation. (pressure cylinders are not made from PVC)

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

How to inspectors test compressed air tanks and steam boilers? They fill them with water and hydro test them. If the tanks fail, they just split and water squirts out and falls to the ground. When a steam boiler ruptures with steam, bad things happen. http://lubbockonline.com/stories/073...l#.VeNOZvlViko

Now when an air tank goes, it isn't pretty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVP_A7eGYxw

When using piping or valves, check for the "WOGS" rating. W= Water, O=oil, G= Gas, and S=Steam. Some valves might have 100W 60GO 40S, meaning 100psi for water, and 60psi for both oil or gas, and 40psi for steam.

So in short, 100psw water is not the same as 100psi Steam, nor 100psi Oil, and not 100psi Gas. You can have a really bad day if you mix them.

I had a neighbor use plastic water pipe to plumb his garage shop, it was left over from replacing his water feed lines in the house. The house pressure was 65psi and rated for 100psi. He ran 80psi air in the same pipe. One day there was a large bang as he was working in the garage. They took a 3" long peice of the plastic pipe out of his chest. Needless to say, when he recovered out went the plastic pipe and in went black pipe.

Be safe. Go the distance make sure you stay safe.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

The other thing that no one has brought up concerning PVC is that it is degraded by UV rays by making it even more brittle. Like all plastics it also off gasses, also increasing its brittleness. So the risk of failure increases with time.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

I will not repeat the value of having the correct materials for the job - safety first!

That being said, many of the valves we are talking about have a diaphragm in them that is held in place using a spring. If you change (lower) the pressure applied by the spring it results in a more abrupt and greater release of air flow. If you lower it too much then the valve lets go on its own when the pressure reaches the lowered break point.

So... replace the spring with a weaker one. Or the "poor teams" method is to clip small pieces off of the spring bit by bit until it has the pressure setting you want.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

1> everything but the PVC parts may be rated for high pressure, but PVC is NOT rated for gas.

2> universal gas laws -- pressure is exerted on all surfaces equally. Thus your PVC parts are seeing the same pressure as all other items regardless of their pressure ratings.

3> T-Shirt cannons are, by design, to be near the public (within shooting distance). Knowingly using non-gas rated parts in a gas (air) cannon may be gross negligence should something happen (I'm not a lawyer but this seems a reasonable argument).

All I'm saying is in this lawsuit culture, you may want to consider overdesigning a bit for safety.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

And my advice is not to do this - get the right thing to start with, unless you know what you're doing (and by that I mean certified). There's a reason that FRC rules do not permit any modification of pneumatic devices, apart from cutting tubing and making adjustments that were specifically designed to be adjusted by the user/consumer. You got it in one: ::safety:: .

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

You are correct. It is by far better to have the correct component from the start. The high pressure hydraulic systems I am responsible for are bad enough. Pneumatics are a whole new level of scary. On reflection it is not a good idea for the average person to play with the inner workings of a valve system.

Unfortunately, the majority of T-shirt launchers are not based on well engineered designs. They seem to be based on you-tube videos and the desire to shoot things. Thankfully most of us who have managed to make it to adulthood have managed to suppress the urges that led us to playing with fireworks, slingshots, pea shooters and home made darts.

Although, I have to admit I still have some of that garage inventor in my blood... must resist the urge...

To those who will be making T-shirt launchers: They are inherently dangerous. Please o' please if you are doing this stay conservative (high pressure ratings for lower pressure applications)!

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

I will bite. :] So how did you get certified?

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

Sorry, did I imply that I was certified for pneumatics work? One of our mentors, Isaac, is a certified pneumatics tech for Ingersoll Rand. While we've never spoken at length about it, I understood that there was a combination of course work, practical, OJT involved. I'm just a physicist who can crunch enough numbers to know that this is too ugly for a jack-of-all-trades to play around with.

I never had a biology course after high school, but I also advise that you don't perform surgery on your family members without the appropriate medical certifications.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

Sorry I was not questioning your credentials, although it does read like that. From your posts, you seem well informed about what you write about. I meant to how does some one get certified in pneumatics in general.

Generally speaking techs work from a set of rules where engineers are able to work from first principles. In the real world this can get very blurry. I know techs & mechanics that know for more about their specific subject than the engineers that are supervising them. The world needs both kinds & hopefully that is what we are developing.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

to all: thanks for all the input and discussion. We scrapped the PVC tanks and valves (kept PVC barrels), went to steel 1/2 gallon air tanks (holed sawed a hole in one end to remove the 3/8" fitting and had a 3/4" or 1" bung heliarc'd in). Valves are 12V metal valves (used for clearing the bags in dust collection systems?).

MrBasse shared a photo album with *their* shooter, and gave permission for me to link to the album. They have "cartridges" that they can preload... https://drive.google.com/folderview?...&usp=sha ring

I'll post pictures of where we ended up after scrapping the PVC tanks and valves.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

the sprinkler solenoids are rated for 150 psi

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

150PSI gas?
Sprinkler valves are generally only rated for liquids.

P.S. It's the valve portion, not the solenoid that's rated for pressure

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

Sorry I meant the valve not the solenoid.

I'm not sure if it was rated for gas and liquid but i know it was 150PSI.

Either way it should have the same chance of failing regardless of Air/Liquid. It's just that if it fails with air the results will be much worse.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

Compressed air has more energy than compressed liquid. You want to use a valve that's specifically rated for compressed air.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

Compressed gas does have more energy than compressed liquid, but the force exerted on the valve is the same. Pressure is pressure, air just compresses significantly more than liquid so its potential energy under pressure is much greater.

Re: spud gun/T-shirt gun valve
 

precisely. That's the part of this discussion that convinced me (and my teammates) that continuing to use a sprinkler valve was a Bad Idea™.

::safety:: ::ouch::