# not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

If you want an off-season event that makes up rules as they go, and the officials answer your questions with "its an off-season event" then the Dow Red Stick Rumble is for you.

If you want an event where they announce the rule changes from the "in season" game 2 weeks before the event, and then don't have referees that understand either set of rules, then the Dow Red Stick Rumble is for you.

If you want an event that announces that the top five alliances are not allowed to pick each other during the alliance selections, therefore making your scouting worthless, then the Dow Red Stick Rumble is for you.

If you think that the #1 alliance should battle the #2 alliance in the semifinals, while the #3 and #4 alliances watch; then the Dow Red Stick Rumble is for you.

If you want something that resembles a real FIRST tournament to give your team experience, then the Dow Red Stick Rumble is NOT for you.

I wish we would have just taken the refund, when they changed dates at the last minute, instead of jumping through many hoops to support the event.

Before you even go to the read the rules or that's Un-GP; if the rules (that were actually used) had been posted beforehand, we would have had a choice to attend or not. As it played out; well suffice it to say we are not going back.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Can you explain the tournament structure that was used in a bit more detail?

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Karthik

16 team event

5 three team alliances

(Event director announced during practice rounds it would be 2 team alliances for playoffs, they changed it halfway through qualification rounds)

#1 alliance received first round bye then played winner of #2 vs. #5 for Semi's

Alliance #3 played #4 for Semi's with winner receiving bid to finals

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Yeesh. I'll admit I have no idea how this off-season event was ran - it sounds somewhat poorly from your account. But this could have been posted about in a MUCH more civil manner.

Off-season events aren't the easiest things to run either. Having planned one myself now, it takes a lot of effort to make sure everything runs smoothly. If you attend an off-season event and left with a positive opinion, then the organizers did everything right. That doesn't always happen.

Why not contact the event organizers privately first and suggest improvements? Maybe offer Team Fusion's input next year to make the event run smoother?

I get it - you guys paid money for an event and had a bad experience. I just think there are a few ways to approach improving the situation first before blowing up on Chief Delphi about it.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Rule of thumb - post thoughts a few days after you attend an event. Usually, you will end up not posting at all.

If you volunteer at offseasons or are on the planning committee for one, you will realize that, well, s*%t happens. :rolleyes: I've been at plenty of offseasons in which things need to be changed/adjusted, and you kind of just roll with it. Yes, you are paying $300 for an event, but keep things in perspective here.

Shoot some constructive comments to Dan (MysterE). From his previous posts it seems the date change was not "last minute" and was also out of their control. He posted about it on 8/4/15.

Dan seems like a good guy trying to do well by his students and his community, cut him some slack and offer up support for next time.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

When concerns are brought up in time for corrections and you get "its off season who cares" as a response, why would I then contact the same people offline and expect a better result.

Changing from a non-ACT test day to an ACT test day within a months time frame is last minute.

Bottom line, we spent some money and had very bad experience with a brand new drive team. This was the second year in a role this happened from the Dow Red Stick Rumble. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Seems like they are more interested in getting credit for hosting an off season event, than actually caring about hosting a good one. Dan the Mystery man, didn't care one bit about what was going on. When I brought up the issues to him (after getting nowhere with the "officials") he said that was their decision.

He did stop dancing long enough for me to give him my drive team's buttons, My students wanted to burn them after this experience, I gave them back instead.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

To paraphrase - "I don't like the way this volunteer-ran off-season event happened."

Cool Team 364. What will you do to help make it better next year? As the most veteran team from the state of Mississipi, I hope to hear more than just complaints. You should be setting the example for other teams on how to deal with a situation like this.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

This is quite out of line. I suggest you cool off before posting anything more that sheds more negative light on you than the event itself. Ask to help plan the event instead of tearing it down.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Clint, Daniel isn't a mystery man, he is the FIRST Senior Mentor for Louisiana so he was the "official" since officially he represents FIRST.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Wow. Maybe he just didn't want to interact with you or your team's attitude anymore? If your posts represent how your team operates then I know I sure wouldn't want to deal with that.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Chuck,

That is what makes his lack of caring even more frustrating.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Ryan Dognaux,

We were nothing but proper at the event. But, we could only take the poor event so long (every spur of the moment rule change was against our team).

Feel free to attend with your team next year, we will choose to spend our money more wisely.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

I don't understand some of these responses at all. I don't know the details of the event, but in general, "trying your best" doesn't cut it when you're dealing with other people's money. If you can't deliver, criticism can and should happen.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Maybe we will, we haven't been down to Louisiana yet - and heck, we'd even volunteer our team to help with organizing and planning.

I know what we won't do - get on Chief Delphi and complain about it in the way you have. Constructive criticism is one thing, but that's not what's happening here.

Again, you're the most veteran team from Mississippi. Have some class and handle this appropriately or simply don't attend next year.

There's a right way and a wrong way to handle things. Tactfully stating what went wrong and right at the event would be a way to start. Simply posting how horrible things went isn't really a great way to make things better.

I also applaud them for 'trying their best' to host an off-season event in Louisiana. Nearly every state should have an off-season event, maybe 3337 is just trying to supply that to their local teams?

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Ryan Dognaux,

We did that last year, this year we let everyone else know to avoid this one.

Your choice, we are done with this off-season event. Because it is off-season No should care based on the Dow Red Stick Rumble officials.

I'm baffled that this many people care about this off-season event, when the people that ran it did not.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

So the people who spent the time to reserve an FRC field, secure a venue and organize everything else that it takes to run an event didn't care about it? One team's opinion. I'd love to hear from others at the event or the organizers. I'm sure 3337 really appreciates all of your super constructive feedback.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

I challenge anyone to disprove anything that I have said.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Why bother to try? Seems like it'd wrestling a greased pig.

Some of my favorite off-season events are run in the same way and that's why we love them.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

I don't think you quite understand the reactions people are having to your post. No one is trying to tell you that things were peachy keen or that you had a good experience. But it's hard to trust what you are reporting when you do it in such a non-professional way.

So in the interest of being constructive, figure out why those controversial decisions were made and then offer suggestions as to how to improve them next year. If you earnestly offer your help (or your team's help) then you can actually help improve this event. Do some work to help other teams avoid the negative experience that you had.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Look, I stand by my post. This event was horrible, they had no interest in customer service at all, and we won't be going back.

If they had tried do anything at all to correct anything or at least apologize for mistakes; this post would not have happened.

Is FIRST really about spending your hard earned money on a poor event and then just accepting it?

Again the issues were brought up and they didn't care!

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

As someone who is currently on the planning committee for the second year of an off-season event, I can say that planning for a small (less than 24 team) event can be very challenging.

Last year we didn't actually know how many teams were going to show up until the day before the event. The alliance structure of a FIRST competition is highly dependent on the number of teams there, especially when you have less than 24, so it doesn't surprise me that changes would be made last minute. Heck we were still finalizing our alliance rules at lunch time on competition day. It wasn't because we wanted to, it was because we had no choice.

I can't speak for the rule changes at your event, but at ours we generally try to make the rules more relaxed without adding more complications to the game. Our event's rule changes were released about 3-4 weeks prior to the event after looking at what other events had done and coming up with what we thought was a good balance. Would we have liked to release them sooner? Sure, but when you have a planning committee that meets only once a week (or less) and consists of volunteers that usually have day jobs to deal with too, we get the information out when we can.

Finally, I don't know what caused the date of your event to change, but try to keep in mind that almost all off-season competitions are completely at the mercy of the venue. If our school were to say to us "sorry, something came up and we need the gym that day", we would try our best to work around the issue but ultimately we too might have to change the date at the last minute.


Now, obviously, I was not at this competition, I do not know the people in charge there, nor did I share your experience. But I hope you consider that there's a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that aren't always within the control of the event organizers who, generally, are just trying to do their best with the resources they have.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

That's fair, but coming from personal experience from doing this myself, it's not a good look. If you took some time to reflect, sent them the feedback personally, and the event told you to shove it, then it would have made more sense to come on here and complain.

You're right to assume that Chief Delphi is a safe haven for any length of litany for any magnitude of grievance related to competitive robotics, but it's also a very political realm. The more diplomatic a course of action, the more accepted the course of action can be. Throwing the idea of constructive criticism out the window and launching into a diatribe is not going to get you anywhere. This is a hard lesson for some people to learn, and one I still have not mastered.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

I am the Build Captain for Panthrobotics and I think he cares more about his team and postion that you do. If you don't like it, dont return. We worked our hardest and planned for months to make it work. Your comment is uncalled for and the reason behind the bracket rule change is to where stacking would not happen. It was a test of your robot, not a powerhouse team of robots.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

I have a question for Clint. Put your team in 3337's place. You are running an extremely small off season event, and half way through you realize the current rules will not work. What would you do differently? As I see it, 3337 handled it beutifully (good job, guys).

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Hi. I am the Controls Captain and Buttons for Team Fusion. First of all, it is completely out of line to say my mentor does not care about the program and/or his position. And "his lack of caring" referred to our outrage that about sudden rule changes for the past two years. When my mentor brought the issue up to him and stated we weren't returning, all he had to say was "as you wish." Furthermore, rules, even at off-season events, need to be stated openly for all to hear, such as at a drivers meeting, so no teams are blindsided by sudden changes, as the teams at the competition were.

With a test of robots comes a test between powerhouse alliances. If you cannot perform competitively at a competition, you should expect to be knocked out by a powerhouse alliance during eliminations. The rule change concerning the brackets would have been acceptable, had it not been sudden. Teams would have been able to scout appropriately.

Finally, we do not think your hard work went to nothing. We all, the six of us who went, believe the tournament was great before the sudden changes. We were having a great time, as we have the past three years, but were let down for the second time by bad calls on the management's part. By posting this thread on Chief Delphi, we did not mean to put down your team's hard work in putting together this competition. We only meant to speak our minds on what went wrong, and to say that it let us down for the second year in a row.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

I apologize for anything that team 3337 took as a slight against their team, this was not my intent. I know that you worked very hard and we appreciate it. I know your mentor cares a lot about your team and your students, he has too. You can't do this job with caring about the team and kids.

Now, put yourself into what my team experienced. They did exactly everything they needed to do to put themselves into the position to build the strongest alliance possible and at the last minute you changed the alliance selection rules that we have all played by forever in FIRST. To top that off, you also messed with the brackets so that the #1 and #2 alliance had to face off in the semi finals instead of the finals.

The disbelief that they could do exactly what they needed to do, followed our plan to the letter; and then have it stripped away by arbitrary and last minute rule changes is just unacceptable. Then when we asked the question why, we get "it is an off season event" as an answer.

Again, I didn't mean to slight team 3337 in the least, I apologize. The last thing I want, is for this to turn into students arguing about who's mentor is better. Trust me, your lucky to have us both.

I suggest that you post the rules you plan to use in future events well in advance and stick to them. Best of luck, we will see you at Bayou.

Please let this end this thread.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

Let me put this into words more clearly so that we can all understand the frustration and get along here.

As a driver at the first two years at this event, I did enjoy it. I believed that it was a well run event. Everyone had a great time. We won the inaugural RSR, were proud of ourselves, and it gave us a HUGE confidence boost that pushed us to win the Bayou Regional in 2014 and punch our ticket to worlds.

Our team is highly competitive. Sure, we aren't the most rewarded and successful team out there. But when I say we like to win, that's an understatement. We go out to events to compete.

Last year at RSR, we made it to the finals and were playing some really tough matches against some really good Texas teams (DiscoBots and Jersey Voltage). As we all know, last year's ref calls were a complete disappointment. Bad calls were made all around, the game was too complicated to keep track of most of the time.

In the finals, we won the first match, but the points were changed at the end because "not enough assist points were counted". Well, we still won the match. No biggie. We can get the next one too.

The next match comes around, we play another great match, and are up by over 20 points at the end. In this video, at the top left of the field, you can see that the ref called a tech foul for pinning. This was quite questionable, as Jersey Voltage was able to back right out of the situation but made no movement, possibly due to technical difficulties. You can see that the score is 131-106 at the end of the match, but they had another 20 points knocked on at the end due to "missing assist points": bringing the score to 151-106.

In the last match, the score at the buzzer was 90 to 110. We had the lead and were very excited to see that we won two RSR's in a row. Well, nope. Again, the other alliance had another 20 points tacked on to their score. Therefore, it went to a tie breaker, and we lost it. (I can't remember, I believe it was assist points or something of the sort.)

From a driver's perspective, you can understand that would be quite frustrating. Even Andrew Lynch from DiscoBots came over to us and said that those calls were crap and he understood our situation.

We didn't come on CD and say anything about that. We contemplated not coming this year but decided to give it a shot.

We worked pretty hard getting our robot in a shape to win this event. We completely changed the winch on our robot, reprogrammed the entire robot in Java, and trained new drivers.

I didn't go to the event because of transportation, but I know that what happened was very frustrating for our drivers, and it would have made me very frustrated as well. Being 1st seed (from what I heard) and then being told right before we announced our first alliance pick that you can't pick the 2nd-5th seed (this was NOT on the rules sheet) is kind of a doozie. It ruined all of our scouting, it was a let down for our new drivers, and a disappointment for the whole team. We had a great shot at winning the tournament with the #1 seed.

I personally don't hold hard feelings towards 3337. They're a great team and do great teams in the community. Daniel does great work in Louisiana for FIRST and RSR is an awesome event. We would have never gone to any offseason events without RSR. Unfortunately, our team attitudes don't mix. Mr. Brawley (our coach) doesn't tolerate things like this, especially with his military background.

Hopefully this sheds some light on the situation and we can all move forward here.

Re: # not returning to Dow Red Stick Rumble
 

For everyone watching this thread, you should know that there were 3 FTA's at this event. One of them is a Championship level division FTA. Two very experienced FTAs were there with the field from AndyMark. Also, another local FTA was there to ensure that the field run properly. All three have tons of experience running the technical aspects of many events. Between the three of them, there is enough experience from about 100 FRC events. (Correction: the local FTA was not there)

From my experience with these three gentlemen, and knowing the leadership on team 3337, I am very surprised from the above comments. Even though the above comments are defamatory, I would trust and believe in the abilities and care of the event organizer and the three FTAs.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker