Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

As those that followed the 2017 Championsplit announcement know, the news was received with a flurry of criticisms. These ranged from not being able to see or play with inspirational teams or friends from distant parts of the First world to how to handle the assignment of foreign and otherwise distant teams. For its part, First responded to these objections by suggesting it would seek input from the First community by including a representative on the committee charged with addressing:

"What geographic regions will be assigned to which FIRST Championship as FRC teams’ ‘home’ Championships, including the way in which teams outside the United States would be included
A potential way in which teams may volunteer and be selected to attend their non-home Championship".

In my opinion, a geographic assignment model is not the simplest or fairest model for CMP venue assignment nor is it easily scalable. One complication that First has already identified is that it necessitates the creation of some formulation to permit teams to attend their non-home CMP. Of course, such a formulation would also require the creation of a rule set that governs the total number of non-home requests per season and per team and per time frame etc.

Another issue with geographic team assignment is that it may, in the interest of maintaining equal numbers between venues, necessitate a regular revisiting of area boundaries as team growth rates are quite varied across the First landscape.

I believe there is a solution that addresses both of the issues quoted above while being easy to understand, simple to administer and, at the same time, sharing the cost burden of CMP travel more equitably among teams. And it is as easy as 1, 2.

I suggest the random assignment annually of a 1 or a 2 to each FRC team that is taking part in the upcoming season (including HOF and other CMP prequalifying teams). Obviously, these numbers would represent the two venue sites. With this assignment, teams would know immediately which of their inspirational or favorite teams would be eligible to attend their CMP venue. As part of the kickoff proceedings, the actual revealing of CMP venue assignment could be handled by Dean and Woodie by a coin toss or other random method.

There would be no need to develop or administer any procedure for attending a "non-home CMP" as there would be no such thing as a "home CMP". Random assignment means that all teams have an equal chance of seeing (insert favorite inspirational teams here...) in action.

I recognize that teams situated near each of the championsplit venues would be open to incurring higher travel costs should they be randomly assigned to the distant venue. That is the main drawback to this method that I see. However, as Orlando, Houston, Atlanta, St. Louis et al can attest, no venue lasts forever. I do believe this approach should at least be given some consideration by the First committee as an alternative to their geographic method.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

How would you balance the numbers that go to each? You could end up with 600 of the teams that qualify being a #1 and only 200 being a #2. What do you do in that case?

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

MWMAC... I appreciate this kind of thinking and problem solving... but there's practical problems for teams like mine caused by stakes-in-the-ground that would exclude us from being able to participate in Detroit--we simply could NOT travel that distance.

Detroit location is one of those stakes we're told cannot be changed thru 2020.

For us, bus travel from San Antonio to St. Louis is 14+ hours for about $10,000.00... to Detroit the drive time is 22+ hours and I'm sure several thousand dollars more bus cost than St. Louis.

We're at our limit of viable travel time by bus of 14-16 hours due to time-off from school and just the ability to handle it... and we're definitely at our limit of $10,000.00 for the bus.

Teams that are west of Texas like California would have a much larger problem than us getting to Detroit via bus.

So speaking just for our team--3481 Bronc Botz--we would NOT be able to compete at Detroit ever that I can see--we just can't get there.

--Michael Blake

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Agreed. If a "random" assignment is to be performed, it should be following qualification, not prior to competition. This would also allow team preference to be taken into account.
Strawman: At each cycle of qualification (e.g. weeks of regionals), the teams which qualify are given 24 hours to express a preference for one venue or the other. Those who do not express a preference are randomly assigned to keep the two events the same size. If too many teams express one or the other, all "no preference" teams go to the short event and teams will be randomly selected from those who selected the long event to go to the other.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

This could create its own problems, though, since some weeks are likely to be biased towards one location or another depending on the location of the week's events (i.e. Week 6 would be very Detroit-heavy due to MICMP being that week). You'd have to take that into account when assigning the 'no preference' teams.

I like the overall idea, since it avoids dividing FRC into two mostly mutually exclusive parts (as a geographic split likely would), but I agree with others that there would be some logistical challenges to overcome. That being said, I think this is worth looking into.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Jacob... I thought "what a great idea" when I first read the OP post... and wholeheartedly agree it should be further pursued.

Too bad they couldn't keep the 2017 venues model of St. Louis/Houston in place because on the face of it, travel-wise, I believe it would be very doable for the vast majority of teams to be randomly assigned to either St. Louis or Houston.

Dang... what could've been...

--Michael Blake

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Here's a proposal I've developed since hearing about the CMP Split. First, there is a reasonable geographic split (yes, this requires re-tuning each year). Then, set up a system for teams to trade slots.

Once a team qualifies for a championship, they are placed in their geographic championship. Online, they can sign up to switch in one of two ways:
1. They are willing to trade with anyone, and the system automatically matches up teams (randomly?). If you're currently in the high-demand CMP, you'll get to trade immediately. If you're in the low-demand CMP, you have to wait with no guarantee of getting in.
2. They are willing to trade, but want to pick with whom. This allows teams who are relatively sure they'll qualify to work out in advance a way to switch. So before the season, 624, a team who would geographically go to Houston, could make a deal with 33, a team who'd be in Detroit, for them to switch.

Thereby no one is forced to go to an extremely inconvenient Championship, and teams that would like to go to the other CMP are reasonably likely to be able to switch. Further, it means there's no further logistics needed on FIRST's part to ensure that the Championships are balanced.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Upon further review it appears burdensome to teams east and north of Virginia and the Canadian teams to be assigned to travel to Houston. Also northern California, Oregon, Washington and others.

TOUGH problem to fix...

--Michael Blake

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

What if, instead of teams, the regionals were assigned to a specific CMP? For example, if a team earned a CMP slot at the 2017 St. Louis regional, they would automatically qualify for the St. Louis CMP, regardless of where the team is actually located. This would keep the number of teams that qualify for each CMP roughly equal. Additionally, teams that want to ensure they can go to a particular CMP can do so by picking a corresponding regional.

I'm not sure how districts would play into this; if a district team travels to a regional and earns a CMP slot at the opposite venue their district is assigned, which event should they (initially) qualify for?

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

WOW... never realized Seattle-area teams have a 29 hour bus drive even to St. Louis.

That's a crazy amount of time on a bus that you do TWICE within 6 days!

--Michael Blake

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

That is one of the reasons for this proposal, i.e. to spread the travel burden.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

AGREED it would do that.

AND I really like this concept... ;-)

But, for my team the reality is if we qualified for CHAMPS and were assigned Detroit we wouldn't be able to go for the reasons I previously posted.

I've got to believe the same constraints we have on travel caps applies to a lot of other teams.

--Michael Blake

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

No one drives that distance, all teams from PNW (and I'd hazard west coast) fly.

Usually there are a few convoys with pit stuff ect. but no students.

Buses aren't the only option :)

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

This was my immediate thought when I first heard about Championsplit. It allows for a nice, even division before the season even starts. To allow for teams to attend either championship without taking on an extra travel burder to attend their farther championship, there can be a wait list for both championships, and allow any team register for one or both of them.

The solution is simple: assign each district to a championship, and it gets however many spots at that district.

If a team qualifies for champs at a regional and their regional and district CMPs are different, give them a choice. If they choose the Regional CMP, give the district an extra spot for its assigned championship. If they choose their district's championship, generate an extra wild card for the regional.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Ryan... AMAZING they can afford all those airplane tickets for students, mentors, school administration, team-parents... and then transportation (local bus?) around hotels and meals... AND they can get someone to trailer their equipment to St. Louis and back.

They must be spending per team in the $15,000.00-$20,000.00 range just for transportation if they're taking their entire teams to CHAMPS!

--Michael Blake

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Doesn't your school district allow your team to fly (allowing you to save classtime in your case). So very many of the rest of us are forced to fly regardless (just check out the terminals at the St Louis Wednesday or Sunday of Champs). Many times a bus can cost a team more overall than airfare or if airfare costs more it's just a matter of some additional fundraising on kid's part to manage the cost increase. Many of the rest of us will never benefit from an in-state or nearby Champs bus drive trip opportunity. That said, if your district doesn't allow for alternative air travel, it would be a shame to see you miss out should you face the travel inequity so many of us will continue to face in the coming years. Many teams (like us) don't take the whole team to Champs in large part because of the cost burden on kids and team...

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Joe... we could fly.

In fact, _ I FLY_ because I'm an adult with some money in my checking account... you won't catch me on a charter bus (did it _once_ at 2011 CHAMPS)... ;-)

But for the rest of the team taking the bus versus flying it is a case of higher cost, substantially higher, than taking a charter bus with an all-inclusive cost of $10,000.00 because we bring 35-45 people--EVERYBODY involved with the team goes.

--Michael Blake

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

+1, QFT

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

This makes a lot of sense. While it ends up generating an extra slot in the end, I don't think it would be a frequent enough occurrence to result in too many teams qualifying.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Yep - I don't know of anyone who drove their entire team from the PNW to St. Louis this year. There were several teams who drove trailers and rented out space to other teams (our forklift didn't fit in our crate, so we sent it with 1510), but everyone else flew.

It ain't cheap goin' to champs from the PNW!

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Actually, it is. To a point. The formulation can be rather simple: you start with the HoF teams and defending champions, figure out where they're going. (It's easier after the first year, because you have each event's defending champions.) Defending champions automatically go to their defending event--regardless of whether it's their home event--and HoF teams split about 50-50 by number (ask them which one they want to go to, and "time in HoF" is the tiebreaker if one event is full before the other).

The geographic assignment is actually quite scalable. It already covers the entire known FRC world. And it's quite simple: you'll go to the closest one to you (not necessarily measured in DISTANCE, mind you--could be measured in time or dollars) unless Plan B is invoked. Fair... Sorry, but life isn't fair.

Plan B is the "I want to go to the other championship" plan. I like the one outlined earlier by Basel: online, switch with either anyone or with a specific team. Simple, and it works.

And that's a bad thing how? I wouldn't just anticipate a revisiting of area boundaries, but how about a regular revisiting of "Is this at the level it needs to be", "Do we need another CMP-level event", and other similar questions. And if those are addressed every couple of years or so, then that is a good thing.



As noted, we're not talking "higher" travel costs. We're talking HIGHER and HIGHER travel costs. Basically, if you're in TX or MI, you need to WANT to go to the other venue (reason for wanting to is up to your team--but there isn't anything saying FIRST can't offer an incentive). That simple.



I did notice the part about reducing travel burdens, or rather sharing them around. I think the best method there is to manage to get the Detroit CMP moved to the West Coast after the Detroit contract expires. (Houston can go to Atlanta or the East Coast.) I think that's somewhat reasonable, no?

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Somewhere in California for the West Coast Championship and back to Atlanta for the East Coast Championship.

*Tongue in Cheek* Then back to the original high school gym for The Championship

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Is there any data out there on what percentage of teams fly to CHAMPS versus using ground transportation?

And is it usual practice for teams that fly to also rent local vans/buses for getting around venue/hotel/restaurants?

--Michael Blake

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

When I went with my team to CMP (once in Atlanta, once to STL) both times we used the subway/metro and walked.

Not sure on exact numbers but the STL airport was very crowded with many many teams. I imagine a majority of teams >500 miles (and reasonably close to a regional airport) fly to championships.

On our team, and I assume for lots of teams especially far from champs (PNW etc) only allow the most dedicated team members to go. It is certainly cost prohibitive to move lots of people across the country any way you try.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

For the teams I know well that have gone to St Louis CMP they have either stayed close enough to walk or used the Metro Link.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

We fly and rent a van.

Thank goodness for split champs.

Now we'll get to fly and rent a van.

-Mike

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

A large part of the rationale FIRST laid out for the dual Championships was saving travel costs. A purely random assignment of teams between the two Championships undoes that.

For instance, there is a MASSIVE population of teams in Southeast Michigan, Ontario, Indiana, and Ohio within an easy drive of the Detroit Championship. Many of the Southeast Michigan teams could even do it as a daytrip (potentially on schoolbuses), slashing the travel costs to near zero. If 50% of these teams end up assigned to the Houston Championship, the costs savings rationale is completely out the window.

Now I realize that for a large portion of FRC, the cost of travelling doesn't really change all that much. We've seen plenty of comments reflecting that from west coast teams. Ultimately a large portion of these teams, especially those that qualify in-season, are going to want to go to the later of the two championships for logistic reasons*.

*The exception being where one championship may interfere with state or AP/IB testing preparation, prom, etc.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Wow. What an improvement. That's going to save so much money. /s

For split champs to be an improvement at all, any team outside of a 15 hour drive to the event HAS to be assigned to the later event. Once you are outside of 15 hours, it is more efficient to fly rather then drive, and the later the champs are, the tickets might be slightly cheaper.

In the US, the only areas further then a 15 hour drive from either champ are the tip of Florida at 16 hours from Houston, and then basically anywhere North or West of the line between Phoenix and Denver. I remember somebody did the math when they announced that, and it was about 700 teams. Unless some of those teams explicitly want to go to the other champs, they should always be assigned to whichever one is later.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Here are some numbers Andrew Schreiber ran in another thread:

FIRST HQ will likely assign a majority of those 1482 teams (which is about half of FRC) to the Detroit Half-Champ (within bus/driving distance). Therefore, it is likely a majority of teams going to Houston will be flying to the event.

Luckily, Houston is the later Half-Champ, so we can all save on airline trav-... Oh wait, nope. :confused:

-Mike

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

We've seen it repeatedly in district discussions as well, but there seems to be a conflation of "this will save FRC team [in general] money" with "this will save my specific FRC team money." It does raise an interest point of emphasis, regarding measures taken to help teams that don't help ALL teams.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Why the van? I definitely see the need for 1 rental car since it can save a bit of money for the team food-wise, but big vans are expensive.

Maybe I'm spoiled since we've stayed within walking distance every year.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Really? I thought the main reason was due to CMPS being too small in the near future, enough that it had to have 2 CMPS. I highly doubt its due to a cost savings......unless you're referring to how teams are assigned to which specific split championship.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Yes they are!:ahh: Especially when you need 2 or 3 of them every year for each FRC event we do. This is after we get killed by airfare expenses to get to the rental car facility.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Yes, they openly stated as much in the initial announcement and the town hall.
http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/2017-...p-announcement
http://wiki.team1640.com/index.php?t...l_Slides-2.jpg

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Sean, you are correct that reducing team travel costs was one of the stated objectives of the championsplit decision. So here is a proposal to help even more teams attend the championship, (which is clearly the primary goal) implement a sliding registration fee schedule that is directly related to the distance a qualifying team is from their respective championship venue...

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

1. Assign all pre-qualified teams to the nearest CMP

2. For each Regional or District Championship, assign qualification slots to the nearest CMP.

3. All teams are assigned to the first CMP that they qualify for during the season (in the event that a HOF team in the Detroit CMP bucket wins a regional in the Houston CMP bucket, etc).

4. After qualifying for CMP, any team may place their team number on a list indicating a desire to swap places with a team at the other CMP. Teams may add themselves every week if they wish as long as they haven't been swapped, but once a team has been swapped, it is no longer eligible to be swapped back.

5. Once a week, all of the teams on the shorter of the two swap lists are switched to the other CMP. An equal number of teams on the longer list are drawn at random to be switched back (so if the numbers are equal on both sides, all teams get swapped).

6. (Optionally) If wait lists are still a thing, each non-qualified team can choose their first and second choice CMP (which might just be one event if the team cannot reasonably travel to the other, etc.) Teams are drawn (how doesn't really matter) from the wait list and assigned their first or second choice depending on availability until all spots are filled. Alternatively, wait list teams can be "drawn and swapped" according to their preferences if there are leftover teams that wish to be swapped to the other CMP.

This system maximizes cost reduction out of the box, guarantees equal numbers at both championships, allows teams to change their CMP for any reason (or guarantee that their CMP is fixed and therefore book travel), and treats all teams as equals (early qualifiers do have more opportunities to switch championships, but this helps to make sure there is enough "liquidity" for later teams to have someone to switch with...and with districts, the majority of teams qualify in the final week anyhow).

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

While that may be a stated objective the fact is that the amount of time between purchasing the tickets and their travel date has a much bigger influence than the distance traveled when air fare is involved. The popularity, number of flights and carriers serving a particular air port also has a greater influence on the cost than distance in most cases.

For example I did a quick look at costs to travel to Portland OR and Los Angeles CA from Seattle.

Seattle to LAX is showing as "from $205" while the driving distance is noted as just over 1100 miles.

Seattle to Portland is showing a "from $211" and it's driving distance is showing as 166 miles.

Both are based on traveling Oct 14th-18th.

Adjusting the dates for Portland to leave on Thur bumps that price up to $381. No certainly you can find flights to LA that are more expensive than to Portland if you play with dates and carriers to find the flight that is almost booked for Portland and a flight that is still relatively empty for LA on the same day but in general this does represent the fact that distance is a minor part of the cost of travel by air and other factors have more influence on price.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

I think the goal has more to do with making it so fewer teams have to fly than making it closer to fly. It is helps if it is now close enough that a team doesn't need to rent a charter bus either.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

However, any uncertainty regarding which Championship venue you're travelling to will drive up flight costs for teams that need to fly.

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Since we are stuck with lovely Detroit, and Houston. FIRST should have some captive area (teams within 600-800 miles by road distance) that are automatically enrolled in those events. Those qualified teams outside the captive areas should be able to select which city to attend based on travel costs/logistics/attractions/and safety considerations.

The remaining non-qualified openings could then be awarded on a space available basis in the two cities. (The Pseudo Championship Experience)

Re: Team CMP Assignment 2017
 

Why not have enough slots for champs reserved for teams that are within driving distance of the event to be able to go to their close championships but also give them the option to give up that reservation if they really want to go to the other championship. Then allow teams that are far from both championships to pick which one they go to. Or to keep things balanced, have the regional winners pick their preference and assign the teams based on that. If too many pick one championship as their preference, the system will try and balance it out based on captain/1st pick/2nd pick to keep it simple unless they are already on a rating system like districts.