"A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

In this post Joe Petito mentions how "Getting an "A" in the class will actually pull down your GPA if you as a student are on the Honors/AP track" and it got me wondering: How systematic of a problem is this? and Who has solved it and how?

In our district, Joe's description is spot-on. Our robotics team is comprised of a wide variety of students, but frequently attracts a handful of the very top students. These are the students taking many AP classes and many technical elective classes, straight A grades, well over 4.0 GPA, involved in leadership positions in other extracurricular activities, etc. When they join robotics, they are earning class credit for it. For some of them, it's three years worth of class credit. And they get straight A grades in robotics too, the highest grade achievable, the highest grade we can award. And yet, it lowers their GPA. Why? Because robotics is not an AP class, and it never will be.

So essentially, in the current system, Students who take MORE classes, and earn the highest grade possible in those additional classes, graduate high school with a LOWER GPA. It seems counter-intuitive, and I'm not convinced it's something the universities have even realized yet. Are we disadvantaging students by giving them more credits than typical, and by giving them an "A" grade in robotics?

While not a single college admissions representative will ever tell you that GPA is used as a primary discriminating factor, in the words of the great Karthik himself, "If they tell you GPA doesn't matter they are lying to your face." When you look at the numbers of applicants versus the numbers of reviewers, you can be fairly confident that GPA is indeed a primary discriminating factor in the application process. Yes there's weighted and unweighted GPAs (along with at least a dozen other ways it's calculated) but the fact that the "A" grade in the additional class actually brings down the weighted GPA concerns me.

We have observed the process for graduates from our own school. Students who take a minimal number of classes, the most of which are AP classes are the ones getting in to the state's top universities, even for degrees like Engineering, even if they have not taken a single engineering class all throughout high school. It's simple math, and they're using it to game the system.

Meanwhile, students who are really the top students in our school, who are on the robotics team, doing far more than the typical high school student, have somewhat lower GPAs simply because they have taken more classes, not because they have lower grades. As a result of the lower GPAs, they are not getting into these top universities.

Who else has this problem? Who has solved it? It seems counter-intuitive to stop awarding course credit for robotics.

I think the Dean's List award and FIRST scholarships are a good initial step toward solving this, but how to we do more to get universities to realize the value of students who participated in FIRST Robotics and other Career Technical Education programs in high school? Do they really want a freshmen class of engineering students who have never turned a wrench?

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

You are not alone on this topic, it's a serious problem. GPA and class rank are more of a game than any indication of intelligence or hard work. My class's valedictorian last year took the minimum amount of classes, all of which were AP or honors level, and had a near perfect GPA. This student also never did any elective courses or extra-curricular activities, because their goal was to get the highest GPA.

Many of my other fellow students (including the Salutatorian) who I would deem as better students took more classes (some of them took 8 compared to the valedictorian's 5), but these included non-honors courses such as band, engineering, woodshop/metal shop, art, etc. that kept them from being at the top. This also caused some of them to miss out on their top schools, while their less accomplished classmates with higher GPA's got into their top choices.

So why is this a bad thing? Due to the nature of college applications, GPA is really the only thing that matters. Having just applied last year, I know first hand that there isn't much quantitative information that you send besides your GPA and your test scores. By pushing the GPA game in students faces at the end of every semester, we are pushing students to stray from classes they are passionate about, and instead getting them to take more "core" classes that give them a huge GPA boost. I know lots of my friends didn't explore potential fields of interest in high school because it would hurt there GPA and chances of getting into the schools they wanted.

Another problem this is causing is that lots of kids are taking the honors level courses when they shouldn't be. Pressure from peers and parents to get the highest possible GPA forces them into classes where they struggle, and ultimately fail to actually learn anything in the class as they struggle to simply get by.

The good news? Since I got to college I have a strong feeling that unweighted GPA is used more often than weighted. My reasoning is that talking to my friends from all over the northeast, all of our schools used different systems to weight their advanced classes in regards to GPA, making weighted GPA a bad statistic to quantify and compare. My hope is that colleges know this and use unweighted GPA.

In regards to your question including robotics when it comes to GPA, my school and many others don't even receive credit for our hours put into the team. The amount of time we spend with the team probably hurts our GPA's but in a different way than you are talking about.

As to what we can do to solve the problem: the biggest thing is to stop making kids think that their GPA is all that matters. I know in my high school the only thing our administration told us was to get the best scores and grades possible so we could get into the best colleges out there (and in turn make our school look good.) I hope there is a better solution out there, but I fear that playing the GPA game will only become more common. I hope we can become a society where a passion for excellence and constant learning is the norm.

To any high school students out there reading this, study hard and get good grades no matter what classes you're in. Follow your dreams, explore your interests, and put in the work. When it comes time to apply to college, you'll understand that grades and test scores really are everything, and a lot of colleges may not see FIRST as important as an activity as we do.

Apologies if this seems like a rant, just getting out my frustrations with the system. It's a lot more frustrating when you have to be a part of it.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

This is what I've heard oft-repeated - colleges will recalculate your GPA using their own system, to even out differences between the GPA calculations from different schools.

Perhaps this is not always true, and students who take more non-weighted courses really are at a disadvantage. Anecdotally, I know that four years of Jazz Band lowered my weighted GPA (compared to an alternate reality in which I'd taken more Honors/AP classes instead), but I never thought that this somehow put me at a disadvantage in the context of college admissions compared to other students. Perhaps I was just naive.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

I'm pretty sure that this is true. Less than half of the schools I applied to even asked for unweighted GPA. This is probably because different schools calculate these things differently. I don't have any firsthand knowledge of selection criteria, but I bet most colleges look more at your whole transcript than any numbers that your high school churns out based on your transcript.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

This was a huge concern when Citrus Circuits first put together a class that we offered, the overwhelming student voice was everyone that had AP classes would not take the class because it would lower their GPA. What we have done to partially resolve this is offer our robotics courses to our students as EITHER a A-F graded class or as a Pass/No Pass course. Our students that are AP takers can take it as Pass/No Pass and not have their GPA adversely affected while still getting elective credit. Our students that do not take AP can then still freely take it as a graded course to bring up their GPA.

The underlying issues surrounding AP/Honors courses is not an issue I am qualified to discuss, but I feel that our solution is not a bad one based on the system we have to work with.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

As a current high school senior and an active member of Team 2468, I cannot express my frustration enough about exactly the issue being covered in this thread.
My school is a very competitive high school where being in the top 10% of the school means taking as many AP classes (that means 5-7 per semester) and getting consistent 95+ grades.
As a student who is actively engaged in Band (which is unweighted), Robotics (also unweighted), and taking foreign language classes (first two years unweighted), I am always at constant stress of trying to juggle my time effectively between the ridiculous amount of homework from the AP classes, marching band practices, and robotics meetings to where I was forced into quitting band for my senior year to make sure that I was able to continue being an active member and a leader in the robotics program.
Spending hours on homework after getting home late from a robotics meeting and then waking up at 5:30 for a band practice has yielded me a class ranking that is barely in the top 10% of the class and I cannot express my disgust with this system enough. I pursued my interests through the activities I engaged myself in (which were time consuming and taught me useful life skills) and the result is a punishment for not taking the "easy-APs" that other take to ensure a higher rank for themselves.
I think a clear solution lies in allowing multipliers for only core-classes (English, Math, etc.) and not for elective courses, but having a higher minimum number of credits necessary to graduate, thereby ensuring that all students are only allowed to take a certain number of grade-enhancing classes and evening the playing field a little more, while decreasing the gap created by students who do not taking as many classes overall to benefit their GPA.

Sorry about the rant, but this issue has been a major source of stress for me in the last several years of my life and I really hope future students don't have to go through the same issue I had throughout my high school years.

Wish me luck as I begin applying to colleges! Maybe they'll value my time spent at robotics and band!

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

GPA is completely different from school to school and as a result, I don't think as much stock is put in the literal number outputted by your school as you would expect come college admissions time. If you have nothing but A's and you're clearly taking challenging classes, a college isn't going to look down on you for not taking 400 AP courses.

You'll be okay - remember that lots of students come from 4.0 schools where GPA is unweighted, yet they aren't penalized compared to 5.0, 6.0, 12.0 schools. (I have no idea how the 12.0 school worked)

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Such an intense focus on the "grade" and getting in to college. Roll it forward 4 or 5 or 6 years and you get this problem.
http://www.macleans.ca/education/uni...pr=12707004769

Robotics and the First program are great at helping with the above problem.

Students. Companies hire stem trained people to solve problems in the "real world" not a virtual text book world. Devote some of your time to jobs - internships and gain experience solving problems in a real job setting.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Our school district has the "pass-fail" (Page 5) option where students can elect within the first few days of a class to take the class such that it does not affect their GPA. It's mostly used by people who want to take AP/Dual Credit classes and are afraid of failing them. The rest of us use it for non-required classes that are not weighted so that they don't kill our GPAs. This only works for classes that aren't required for graduation. For example: I can do this with my elective rocketry class, but not my required art 1 class. The year that we had robotics as a class, I used this option and it helped tremendously.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

In my high school you got the same GPA numerical value for the same letter grade regardless of class. Looking back, yes it made it so the AP or IB classes weren't graded according to their difficulty or the level of the material, but it was never really an issue. No one ever complained to the point where changing things was taken seriously.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Colleges really don't care much about your GPA per se. I have done enough alumni admissions rep work (and talked to friends who do admissions work) to have learned this lesson. This is particularly true for the top tier colleges and universities. They care in that they want students who have taken some of the most challenging classes available. But they are well aware of how weighted grades can make a GPA a more fuzzy measure of academic quality. Admissions counselors are also good at spotting the students who strategically take the "easiest" weighted courses and a little lighter load in order to have the best possible GPA. A friend who is in admissions at a very good school said to me "Tell them to take enough of the most challenging courses to show they can succeed, not so many that they start to get overwhelmed, and after that take the classes that interest them." She said they routinely get inquiries from people who say something like "I had a higher GPA and as good/better test scores than X, but he got in and I didn't. Why?" They obviously can't discuss other students, but she said in many such cases she wants to tell them "Your transcript reads like someone trying to get the best possible GPA and not like someone interested in learning as much as possible."

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Same here. In my graduating class, I was #6 (after the five valedictorians) having taken AP Chem, AP Calc AB, and AP English (don't remember which one), with one quarter of AP English being the reason I was #6. It was never a problem that you didn't earn a bonus to the GPA.

One possible advantage is that many students will dual enroll at the university, so instead of taking lots of honors classes, many just start on college classes senior year. So I got out of high school with just shy of a 4.0, 20 direct college credits and another 14 credits from AP. And I was never interested in the top-tier schools.

PS. Robotics isn't a class here.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Don't worry too much about this. GPA is recalculated by the college.

In the eyes of Michigan, my sparkling 4.14 was only worth a 3.97. Get the A, carry on.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Our school has solved this problem in a not so good way but it works for some. So if your GPA is above a 4.0 this class would lower your GPA but if it was below a 4.0, this class could help your GPA. The way they solved this is for every student who has a GPA above a 4.0, they award them 1 flex class. This flex class can be used on any class that is not on the 5.0 scale. This could be computer programming, business, engineering classes, music classes, etc. Our school does not have a robotics class but this flex idea could be used on a 4.0 robotics class. The only issue with the flex program is the fact that a student could only take 1 class with a 4.0. Many robotics kids at my school are also in Band or Orchestra. This would force them to choose robotics , music, or a drop in the GPA. The flex class does help the student's GPA to an extent.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

In my real life job as a school counselor I see this issue FAR too often.

Some but not all schools DO recalculate GPA.
Some but not all schools do use GPA as a significant factor in determining admission.

This has all been brought upon us by wanting to provide a "trophy" to all students. The simplest solution is to eliminate the weighting of grades and force a much more holistic approach when making admissions decisions. An even easier solution would be to eliminate class rank altogether thus making the weighting unnecessary.

None of those changes is easy to implement (see "trophy" above).

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

I'd be wary to trust my academic and professional future in the hands of any college that does not recalculate GPA to normalize different scoring systems.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

+1

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

I'll echo that this has been a great solution for the students on our team. Sanddrag, if this is an option for your program, I would look into it. As Devin said, it allows a wide variety of students to take the class and benefit, no matter what "academic track" they are on.

If you want more info, PM me and I can put you in touch with our Lead Mentor who established our courses at the high school.

-Mike

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Honestly, I don't think there's much reason to worry about robotics bringing your GPA down closer to 4.0. If you're that concerned that "optional classes" you didn't have to take for graduation lowered your GPA and might affect your ability to get in somewhere, then you have ample opportunity to talk about! Make it a focus of one of your admissions essays (write about how the robotics classes impacted you, and end with a tag line "even though it lowered my GPA, it was well worth it"). When you visit the college and interview with someone there, bring it up in the interview - "i was wondering how my GPA compares to your typical applicant", and as that conversation progresses, "i knew it was going to lower my GPA, but I felt that taking this robotics course would help me because...".

Personally, I never found GPA to be much of an issue when applying to colleges, and I applied to some rather tough ones. The tough ones are all going to look at much more than just GPA, as others have said... And Schools that don't look past the provided GPA probably aren't going to be difficult for someone with a 4.0+ to get into!

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Yep, Michigan definitely does recalculate GPAs (my unweighed was not quite a 3.97, but I still got in :) ). They also constantly stress that they consider course load, the schools where the classes were taken, etc. rather than strictly looking at GPA on its own. I'd guesstimate that doing robotics probably would outweigh the difference in GPA, if it's a deciding factor for some students. Pass/Fail seems like a reasonable compromise, although if I'm a college, I'm wondering why the student took that class Pass/Fail rather than for a grade (and I'm not sure I'd be thrilled with "so their GPA would be higher").

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

+1, Same scenario at our high school.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Colleges recalculate your GPA based on their own standards. The only area I could see this hurting is in class rankings.


Honestly, the bigger issue here is how this emphasizes our cultural demand for perfectionism. It isn't healthy.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Absolutely agree. If I learned one thing in FRC as a student it was that you take a lot more out of your failures than you do your successes. By promoting a culture of taking an easier route to success, we aren't advocating for real learning.

This isn't a problem that anyone on Chief Delphi is disagreeing with. It's about the culture outside of us that we need to continue changing.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Same. I graduated in 98 with a 3.7. Messed around my freshman year then straight A's the last three years and took every AP class offered, but there was no grade inflation. An A was 4 points no matter what.

I think kids worry too much about a perfect GPA. Good colleges are going to look at that and figure it out for themselves. If you're applying to a college that only looks at the GPA and not what constituted it, then you're applying to the wrong college. Every 'good' college I applied to ended up interviewing me. They never once asked about my GPA - they asked what practical experience I had. My out-of-school programming job, home economics course, cad-cam course, band, tennis, robotics, sailing, and community service etc constituted the entirety of the conversation. In fact, I made a joke about the fact that I belonged to three 'honors societies' that I wanted nothing to do with because they didn't add to me as a person (NHS, Golden Key, and Beta Club). I thought they were pointless, and a couple of my interviewers agreed =).

In the end, even the college that I went to really didn't make a difference. The co-op I had DURING college got me my first out-of-college job. And when you ask all the professionals you work with where they went to school you'll hear a lot of school names you won't recognize. Yet they have great jobs too.

If you are smart and work hard, don't sweat it.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

It is unhealthy, but if you want to keep up sometimes it's necessary for those who are aiming for the highest tier of schools. Taking classes like robotics at our school can potentially put you out of the running for the top 10 altogether, and even lower if you've ever gotten a B.

I wish GPA/class rank didn't have such a big emphasis, but that's the game high schoolers are being forced to play.

And I realize that there's more to life than GPA and class rank and what college you go to. I'm just saying that at some point, every applicant to some schools (i.e Ivy League) begins to have several valuable extracurriculars and very good test scores, with remarkable stories int heir essays. Naturally, students shooting for these colleges will be looking to squeeze out every advantage they can for their applications, one being their GPA and class rank.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

This seems like looking for a solution to a problem that isn't a problem.

If you took nothing but AP classes your soph through senior years, your GPA would be like 4.6 without robotics and 4.5 with robotics.

I highly, highly doubt this actually harms you with a potential future college.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

In my high school, you need at least a 4.3 GPA to be top 10%, which is where you need to be for automatic admission to most state schools in Texas. If you are applying to UT, your GPA needs to be greater because their auto admit cutoff is around 7%.

Needless to say, auto admit makes Texas high school students very serious about GPA. The valedictorian of my class sits at around a 4.8 GPA. Sure you take all APs and make your grade, but for many students that is difficult to do with robotics, and would rather focus on their guaranteed college acceptance rather than a really awesome extracurricular activity.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

I think GPA is important, but not most important, to the holistic review of colleges. Most look at all that you've done, and also admissions officers often look at your record in the context of your school. (For example, not all schools offer as many AP classes as others) Also, recommendations and interviews are increasingly popular, and these can showcase your abilities outside of class. If you're spending so much time in robotics, maybe your teacher would be a great person to ask for a recommendation! :) My school has a "brag sheet" for us to fill out before a counselor writes a rec, and one of the questions is "Is your high school academic record an accurate measure of your ability and potential? If not, what do you consider the best measure of your potential?" I don't know exactly how my counselor will reflect on that (if she does at all), but something like that may be a good thing to put in your applications if there is a spot (i.e. the Common App's personal statement box) And yes, some schools calculate GPA differently, such as the University of Tennessee, who unweights them and recalculates only certain ones (and if you've taken more than what is required, they may only look at your highest in that subject. For example, I've taken 4 art classes total, but UT would only look at my highest unweighted score.)

But yes, I do agree that GPA stacking is a problem. Not only does it sometimes unfairly inflate GPA, it also takes away from other experiences you could have in high school. I am an excellent student in AP and honors academic classes, but I have also taken leadership, theater, photography, speech, wildlife, and leadership. Are those going to make me appear a weaker student because I did not take certain AP's? No - if anything, they will show that I am well-rounded. Plus, I'm not interested in all the AP's my school offers, nor do I want to sacrifice parts of my schedule to take them.

Now, back to robotics. I can say that I would not be in robotics for my 4th year now if I had had to give up some of my classes (on my school's block scheduling, that's a whole semester if I took it once a year!). But I have an idea for you. See if you can create some kind of robotics-related project outside the competition. Maybe you can do research, or solve a problem through designing something. Make this opportunity available for students who have done robotics for at least two years (or one so that it can add to GPA sooner) and make it so that their participation in that can count as honors credit. This could be done in the offseason so that it would not interfere with the REAL March Madness. ;) (Source of the idea: My school has a STEM Scholars program where about 20 juniors and seniors are in groups researching something. We haven't started our research yet, but upon completion, we will get an extra certificate at graduation, and we can put this on our resumes. All this is out of class, although some get permission to reserve a class period to focus on that instead of taking a class.)

Hope this helps!

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

As well as some of the collegiate engineering competitions. See "robotics with your classes applied to the challenge first". I went to a college with a very strong "hands-on" component. 2 projects sophomore year... 1+ junior year... senior design... and I was on one of the engineering competition teams. That team led to one of the quickest "knowledge turnarounds" I've ever done--calculating how much drag force a turnbuckle would likely generate (and thus, the odds of needing more power than available) right after I'd learned drag. Had to ask the prof what the best strategy was for doing drag on odd shapes...

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

I would not worry about this. Most universities are looking at the full picture of who the applicants are as people, what makes them tick, what they might contribute to the campus, and whether they would be able to thrive at the school. It is not just a question of who has the highest combination of GPA and SAT/ACT score, and schools do recognize how different weighting systems can effect weighted GPAs.

I would focus your energy on taking classes that interest and challenge you at a level that is manageable to you. Make the most of the opportunities and resources you have available to you.

If you are interested in going into the STEM fields, having hands-on experience like robotics will reflect well on you when you apply to college, scholarships, internships, and careers. Don't worry about it's effect on your weighted GPA.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

I want to believe this, but I find it difficult to do so. There isn't much that I remember from college applications that would allow colleges to collect that information to get to know a student beyond their grades. The essay is just about it, which is painfully short and usually highly edited by English teachers. The only other thing is you can list clubs and sports, but I know plenty of kids who put down clubs on their applications that they only were a part of for one meeting.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

For those of you not familiar with the way Texas Colleges work, there is an automatic admission for the top 10% (in most cases) of your class.

I have a high school sophomore in a very competitive high school. They weight pre-AP, AP, and IB classes so even though he has over a 4.0 average he is not within the top 10% due to a faction of students I call the GPA grubbers.

We had a lengthy conversation about it that ended like this:

Me: Do you even want to go to a Texas School?

Him: No.

Me: Well, then focus on the classes you like, take enough AP classes so you can still be on the varsity swim team and test out of a bunch of credits in college.

Him: OK, but what if I don't get into the best school?

Me: Don't worry about it. You have over 20 schools on your list of desirable schools so you will be fine.

Him: OK, sounds good.


His stress level has gone down significantly since that conversation.

Now, for you other Texas students that want to go to a Texas University ... I don't really have much advice for you other than to work hard and learn as much as you can, because that is really what matters in your education if you want to actually be productive in your career.

Paul

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

The question isn't: "Does GPA matter in college applications?" EDIT: I guess it kind of is. The answer seems to be a resounding "Very Systematic." Especially considering Paul's above example of the Texas admission system.

The question is: "How does a robotics class that currently lowers a weighted GPA of a >4.0 weighted GPA student attract and retain said student?"

Here are some options I see:

Option 1: Convince said student that the slight difference in weighted GPA won't matter. (as some have claimed on this thread)

Option 2: Give an option for taking the class pass/no pass, so it doesn't effect their GPA.

Option 3: Provide an AP/Honors Robotics class that will provide a 5.0 weighted with an "A"

Option 4: Don't enroll said students in the class but allow participation on the team.

We went with Option 2/Option 4.

Option 1 is probably a hard sell for high achieving kids. We have many students from our school district going to top colleges, and I doubt these students would buy the argument in Option 1. But we still want these kids on the team, so rather than try to convince every high-achieving student to register for something they don't want, we went with different options ;)

Is Option 3 even possible in California? The closest I can think of is AP Computer Science.

Let us know if you end up making any changes to your program to address these challenges! I've always admired the way you run 696, even if its pretty different from the way we've done things up here!

-Mike

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Admissions offices consider what students say about themselves (their essays), what their teachers say about them (their recommendations), and what others say about them (their interviewers). They also look at how these narratives fit together and any commonalities or differences between them, and they use this to develop an understanding of who the student is as a person.

Not every school does it exactly the same way, but I believe this is the general idea for many schools. It is relatively easy to see through students who try to "pad" their resumes, and a lot more goes into the decisions than just raw numbers. I am speaking from experience both as an alumni interviewer for my school and a scholarship judge for a number of organizations.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

I forgot about teacher reccomendations. That actually does make a big difference in my mind, between the kids looking to learn and the kids looking for a grade.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

I'm not up-to-date with how 687 currently handles this, but I can share how it worked when I was in high school.

Our FRC class was not weighted, but students could concurrently enroll in an FRC-oriented Physics class at Cal State University Dominguez Hills (where the CAMS campus is located) taught by one of our mentors. We did the same thing with El Camino College for our other engineering classes.

Over the summer, 687 students also often take machining classes at El Camino.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Being from a Texas High School and in the top 10% of my class I feel that I have an understanding for the students striving in this position. Being in ranked 2nd in your class is good but being ranked 2nd because I chose to opt out for Robotics over AP Psych hurts a little bit.

While I would greatly appreciate an AP robotics class I think the College Board would be better off with an AP Engineering class that encompasses many aspects of engineering. If I were making the AP class I would build it to be similar to AP 2D/3D Art. Students would submit an original work in CAD/Pictures/ETC and have to explain the engineering concepts behind the design, in addition their would be a written exam where students are tested on the basics of engineering.

This way students would be able to showcase a part of the robot that they may have designed and get to learn more about Engineering through the math/physics realms.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

A PDR/CDR type of work? And a (much) lighter version of the FE Exam?

Folks, I think we've got a winner here. Real question is going to be convincing the Powers That Be that such a plan is feasible. (It also works for non-robotics students, too, as they can pick some other problem to solve.)



For those that don't understand the acronyms:
--PDR is Preliminary Design Review. "This is the problem I am trying to solve, here are some concepts that I came up with, this is the concept that I am proceeding with because X, Y, and Z factors favor it." Usually done to get approval for detailed design.
--CDR is Critical Design Review. "This is the problem, this is my solution, here's a bunch of math and cool stress pictures to back up my thinking." Usually done to get approval to build a prototype (or final product).
--FE Exam is the Fundamentals of Engineering Exam. 8 hours of test, 4 hours on general concepts and 4 hours on major specific ones, give or take a bit. For an AP type of class, though, you'd probably stick to really basic general concepts spread around any engineering discipline not already covered by an AP test.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

Out of curiosity, are there any movements in the FRC-hub and outside of the hub about these "AP Engineering" classes in making engineering a part of the national curriculum?

I am not asking about PLTW (as wonderful as it is), but more in the context of this discussion of classes hurting GPA.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

This is good advice in general. There are a lot of good schools out there, and those who are willing to work hard are more likely to (a) figure out what career path is best for them and (b) be successful and happy in their career choice.

I am on the research faculty in the largest research division of a major research university, affiliated with a federal research lab that is an extremely cool place to work. I hire and work with a lot of college undergraduate students. I can tell you that we really don't care about their high school GPA once they are here. If they show the desire to learn, though, and have shown the ability to succeed in challenging courses in college, then this is the place for them. They get to work on research projects that give them a huge boost to start their professional career or (more frequently) getting into the grad school of their choice, and they get paid to do so.

The students who are really passionate seek us out, and almost always get a job. It's pretty easy to identify them. Wish we had more FIRST kids, here!

Anyway, my point is don't stress about the short term stuff. Take the long term view an you will be a lot happier in both the short and long term.

(Disclaimer: I'm the father of kids who also stress about their GPAs, but not as much when they take the long view. Plus, here, ACT and PSAT scores seem to be far more important than grades).

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

So with a quick google search I learned that AP engineering may be a class that is coming upon the horizon.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

I've taken a concert band class all four years of my high school career, which, not being an AP/Honors class, factors in a full point lower on our schools weighted scale. The difference at the upper level of my school is pretty condemning, where being valedictorian is basically impossible and getting into the top 2% is extremely difficult (class size of a thousand :yikes: ).

Full disclosure I'm going through the application process now, so I guess we'll see if I'm right, but I in no way have ever regretted taking band. It's become part of my life, and through it I can participate in activities like marching band, which in no doubt has helped bolster my resume for college.

I find it very hard to believe a college is going to penalize you for committing to something and following through with it, especially if it is something as positive as a robotics class. They're looking to see you doing well with a challenging work load - not to see the one class that lowers some school-determined number despite it actually improving you as a person.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

I'm a little confused by why this is an excuse to not take robot class (or any other non-AP class). I understand the class rank circus, but it's missing out on automatic admission, not getting an automatic rejection. Applying for a school with good numbers/recommendations/essays/etc (even if your class rank is funky from GPA inflation) is going to result favorably.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

It honestly depends on how well you manage your time.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

I think the argument is that a lot of students initially want to get involved in robotics because it would help them in the future and stand out to colleges. If they can get automatic acceptance though by not taking the class, then it doesn't make too much sense to a person not yet committed to the program. Especially if they only want to go to an in state school.

Re: "A" in Robotics = Lower GPA?
 

The question we should be asking is why should students interested in robotics be penalized gradewise at all? What's the drawback to making robotics a positively weighted course?

Rigor can't be a factor because at least within my district from personal experience I can think of some positively weighted (5.0) courses that are not as challenging as our robotics program, and I would imagine the same is true for many other teams.