[FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Posted on the FRC Blog, 10/8/15: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/blog-2016-radio-update

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

so.... 2 ports for roborio + camera + tether = ???

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

You can use one of the USB ports for a USB camera instead of using up an ethernet port.

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AFAIK tethers and cameras can interface with the RoboRIO through USB as well.

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Tethers only if you had iTunes installed... which we learned very late in the season.

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Really? Something to do with Bonjour?

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Cue an endless debate about the ethics of posting the FRC special price here.

mDNS, but yes.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

I am in no way telling people to post or not post, etc. That said, my interpretation is that FIRST/AndyMark and Open Mesh have a contract which forbids them from sharing the price publicly. As a FIRST team, you have no such contract with either party, and therefore no obligation to not share the price. Further, in my mind, it is not in violation of Gracious Professionalism to share the price, as no one has asked us not to share it, just that FIRST/AndyMark may not, and similarly, no one has implied that we should not.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

I'm not telling anyone to post/not post the price either; I just suspect someone will regardless. And Kate made it pretty clear the price isn't supposed to be public, so there's an argument to be made for respecting that.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

The way I read it, she did not make it clear one way or the other about it being public: she wrote
which almost seemed to emphasize that *we* (that is FIRST and AndyMark) cannot, but not necessarily that others cannot.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Where do I plug in my two PCDuino's that run our 2 image processing cameras. We don't use the RoboRIO resources for image processing.

Do I have to buy a network switch?

Can we still use the old Bridge for the advanced users?

I am not sure I like the reduced capability.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

And here we go...

The issue is that the price point is exclusive to FIRST teams, and not intended to be viewed by anyone not affiliated a FIRST team. If the price were posted here, it will be viewed by non-FIRST people, which OpenMesh thinks could impact their business, hence the NDA for FIRST and AndyMark.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Thank you. That is a fair point.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Nothing unethical about publishing the price. They had several opportunities to ask teams not to share the price (i.e. on the blog post, on the page with the price, etc) and they, to my knowledge, have not done so. They have merely explained why *they* aren't sharing the price. Their contract prohibits them from sharing it publicly. Them, not us. If they didn't want us to ever say how much it costs teams, they would have asked us not to. I don't really see what the issue is here.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Ok...so someone please just share with the rest of us a narrow range of $$ that includes the cost of the radio, thus avoiding publicizing the cost POINT ( more than X but less than Y will do just fine for now:D

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More than $0 and less than $1000

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

That is what I think as well.

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I think First, Open Mesh, Andymark all realize they cannot stop people from posting the price. They probably prefer that you do not. Personally I will not, but will not (I hope :) ) get into an extended ethical debate about it. Even on the Andymark website, apparently, you will only be able to see the price & purchase from your official team account. So it is not particularly public there. Since it requires a sign in to see the price, they could add verbiage asking that you do not disclose the price. Probably not enforceable from a practical sense. It will keep you from using it to negotiate with vendors that have low price guarantees since it not an "advertised" price.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

While nothing would prevent a team from posting the special price here, teams would be well advised to remember that if they make it EASY for people to give FIRST teams a special price, then they are likely to get special prices in the future.

If teams choose to make it a pain in the butt to give FIRST teams a special price, well, don't expect to get special prices in the future.

Jason

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

This routers seems really expensive for the features and specs it lists on the website. Am I missing something that justifies the routers cost?

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People are obsessing over price posts... I'm obsessing over the pear.

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Within +/- $.02 range will work too;). BTW, I have already seen the price in AndyMark account...I just want somebody else to have the opportunity to share:D

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

For any of those that have already used this, would you care to comment on how fragile this device is? Susceptibility to brown-outs, electrical noise, or static shocks?

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Smaller is good. Looks like its a 12v router which means it will need to be wired to the other side of the VRM, I'm sure that will mix up a few times (especially all the VRMs with stickers that say the radio should be powered off the 5v rail).

One of the ethernet ports is gigabit, doubt anyone needs that but possibly cool.

For anyone that needs more ports you can just get a small 5v or 12v switch and add all the ethernet ports you need.

Hopefully FMS will allow for a way to mix and match radios with the new and the old Dlink for off season events or its going to get pretty expensive to upgrade all those practice bots and prerookie robots.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

These numbers are marginal in the grand scheme of things, but I'm still curious if anyone has them:

• What is the reduction in footprint size?
  
• What are the weight savings?

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

= buying a switch. Completely worth it for the firmware improvements though.

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Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if someone starts offering a 3 or 4 port ethernet switch on a board that plugs into the roborio MXP before February.
http://xtdplink123456.en.ec21.com/Be...1_5953264.html

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

About half the footprint at around the same weight.

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Why would it need to plug into the MXP? You have 2 ports on the new radio. 1 port will be for the roboRio, but you could just plug a standard switch into the other port.

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This may be the best thing since sliced bread and maybe I'm not seeing it, but it does seem a bit expensive to me as well.

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This is cheaper than I remember paying for the d-link (after logging in to AM to see price).

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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A couple of reasons - you could power the switch without additional wires, you are right next the the roborio ethernet port, so one length of cable can be very short, and it doesn't take up any more room on the belly pan or frame. In short, putting the switch on the MXP is not needed, but it's nice and tidy.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Exactly. Meet me on the corner with my Labview and NI dealers (Hey Foster, want a taste? FIRST snort is free, lets hook you up, we'll be your regular dealers, hey !) Buy Labview and NI stuff on the street, FIRST has a very sweet deal.

$100 on a $5000 robot? Really? You'll blow that on expedited Fed-Ex shipping (*) in week 4.

It's a white box, buy three and deal with it. It's October and you now now the footprint (aprox 2^pear's across) ** is out in the open. Yay you.

For those that need 2^12 ports, let me direct you to the Cisco Product line, but I think weight may be a problem..

(*) Fed Ex is an amazing sponsor, no disrespect intended.
(**) Not good, next we will see the FRC field is 168 standard pears long. For years the world has gone with metric bananas for size and yet the Americans stick to the out dated pear.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

The power over ethernet might be kinda neat. Might be possible to make a breakout plug so the radio and roborio can be powered from an offboard power source without a battery in the robot, being able to deploy code through battery swaps or power loss might be somewhat useful. Are there any other relevant PoE devices?

I wonder how much of an impact the firmware will have on teams.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Are we going to get these every year in the KOP. If so it looks like in a few years our robotics room is getting a fancy new router. :p

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Generally speaking, control system components are only given to all teams in the KOP when they change/are new. This is a change, therefore all teams get one. After the first round of that, they will (in general) only go to rookies in the KOP--though I wouldn't find it inconceivable for them to crop up in FIRST Choice or for sale at AndyMark in addition to any other places they'd be sold commercially.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

We ran one of these at IRI. I am pretty sure we did not need to rewire anything. We just pulled off the DLINK and put this one on.

-Steve

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I believe veterans received routers in the KOP the past 2 years despite being the same model from 2013.

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This router supports PoE, so in theory if later versions of the RoboRIO supported being able to inject power into the ethernet cables (or had a setting to do so in the webdash), you could save yourself the additional wiring and hassle of a power cable into the VRM altogether, another perk over the DLink router.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

call me crazy but I feel like I saw a radio in the 2014 and 2015 KOP.
For all I know it could have been from First Choice. I started caring about robotics a lot more around the beginning of the build season last year.

I do remember convincing my mentor to put the Nvidia Quadro k4000 as the top pick on last years FChoice which wasnt hard since hes as big of a hardware geek as I am. Seriously though why was a $1,200 gpu only 200 points.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Last year, it was in there. That being said, last year also featured a new control system, when it would make sense to give out the entire system rather than just the new parts.

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I also distinctly remember getting it in 2014... am I just crazy? :confused:

EDIT: I looked it up, and we did get routers in 2014. Along with a decent amount of the control system, actually. http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...4-kit-of-parts

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Or I could be. I don't remember hearing about it being given out to non-rookies between '09 and '12, so it could have been a policy change after Einstein 2012.

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I can confirm. My team was a rookie in 2012, and we currently have 4 radios, and we have never had the budget to warrant purchasing another one.

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That's quite odd. It looks like everything is there except for the Rio. Did they just decide to give all that stuff to us so they didn't have a lot left over after the control system switch.

That's not something that normally happens right?

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

It wasn't supposed to happen.

What WAS supposed to happen, back in '09, was: They'd give every team a control system on entry into FRC (or if there was a new system). (cRIO, modules, etc., the whole thing.) After that, as cost saving, they'd only give the stuff that they needed to.

Looks like that's changed.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

We also ran one at IRI and had to rewire. It was probably just so easy that you forgot.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Happened in 2012-2013, too, apparently.
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...ariation-table
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...eran-variation

Going back to 2010-2011, it seems that for all the control system components veterans got, rookies got 2. Odd.
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...write%20up.pdf
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...ifferences.pdf

Interestingly, it seems giving veterans router models they received previously only started in 2014.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Can confirm what Joe Ross said, we also ran one at IRI. All you had to do was flip the power wires from the regulated 5V side of the VRM to the 12V side.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

The blog notes that FRC firmware is not available until kickoff. Does that mean if we buy one now, we won't be able to mess around with it/use it on a practise bot?

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

If you take a look at my last post, I don't think it's odd at all.

The original intent was that only new/upgraded components of the control system would be sent to all teams in the KOP, while rookies would get the whole system (because they kind of need it).
2008 and prior: New system, complete, every year, to every team. (Thanks to IFI for their support--and for the ability to run a match within 30 seconds of the last robot turning on.)
2009: New system. Operator box, router for it, D-link for the robot, cRIO, PDP, cRIO modules, and breakouts, to all teams.
2010: Slight modification... Classmates distributed to all teams. I want to say modules and breakouts were also on the distribution list, but more limited.
2011: Same sort of deal as 2010, sans classmate.
2012: See above. A Kinect was also included. But this also saw the Einstein Incident... And there had been some other incidents with wireless.
2013: Everybody gets new router, some modules...
2014: See 2013.
2015: New control system: everybody gets one! (On the robot side at least. OI being what it is, the Classmate is not provided to veterans.)
2016: All we know for sure is: the RoboRIO system is getting a new radio, and thus it'll be in all KOPs sent out. In theory, the rest of the system isn't changing, so there's no need to send everybody everything... but who knows.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

AndyMark has directions here for installing OpenWRT onto the radio and getting it all set up for home use. I imagine the FRC firmware will be required for connecting to the FMS.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Yes, I was probably distracted with something else when the installation happened.

So, now I agree with the observation that we will see some calls for help as teams wire up to the VRM where last year's sticker says "Radio".

-Steve

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

The Dlink went from a Rev A to a required Rev B. one of those years. While they look a lot alike, all teams needed a new radio. What comes in the KOP is also dependent on donations.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

We're one of the beta test teams again this year and I believe we'll be testing this radio out. We're going to have to work out an external switching solution so we can keep our vision system working. As a beta team, we'll do our best to keep the community informed about how this shakes out for us.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

From 2010 onward, literally everything but the cRIO, solenoid breakout, and radio (except when it was new, until 2014), was given to all teams. Even the PDP, which was fairly expensive as I recall. Just based on precedent, I wouldn't be surprised to get another PDP and VRM in this year's KOP; however, as the supplier has also changed, I could really see it going either way.

But back on topic, I'm pretty happy with this radio. The footprint is great, and my team was planning on using a USB camera anyway; no real drawbacks for us. I'll still be interested in know how easy it is to use a switch, though; never know when we'll need another port in the future.

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Just bought 2 at the special pricing, which is how the world works. I get quotes all the time for Rockwell Automation parts for my customers and their price is significantly different than my companies price. Its how things are done in industry. Companies sign contracts to get special pricing all the time.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Its $104.00 for FIRST teams, $135.00 for non FIRST on Andy Mark, just sign in with a team account... I don't see why people wont post the price.

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Because it is a special price for FIRST Teams only. I don't think the company wants the public to know the Price teams are getting them at.

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People won't post the price because they respect FIRST and Andymark's decision to keep it hidden. No, it's not hard to access the price, but it was probably hidden for a good reason.

Edit: Ninja'd.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Only people associated with FIRST will go on Chief Delphi though...so only FIRST teams will be seeing the price. Not the public.

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Chief Delphi is openly accessible by the public. Plus, this very thread appears near the front of some google searches relevant to the device.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Im excited to see that we are getting a pair in the KOP this year.

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Ours were delivered this morning. Definitely are small :)

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A pair? As in 2? Where did you see this info?

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

I think he meant pear. As in, the fruit. ;)

Why are we hiding a $30 dollar discount? With the whole don't mention discount thing is this thread I was expecting the thing to be $50.

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It's what OpenMesh wants. They're doing us a huge favor by providing the discount. The least the can do is honor their wishes and keep the discount to ourselves.

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Perhaps this thread should have been called "2016 Radio Special Pricing Update."

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I dared hope that people would get the sarcasm in this post, but alas...

That's where I lost you "huge favor" yes I know when your talking about thousands of teams $30 adds up but, it's also going to be tax deductible for them. My 10% off best buy coupon could do something similar granted on a much smaller scale.

I really don't want to seem rude i just think it's a bit ridiculous for them to act like they are giving us a huge discount when all they are doing is putting a slight dent in their profits for publicity and tax sake.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Or maybe they didn't want to hear complaining about how small of a discount they were giving.

I don't want to seem rude either.




As far as I'm concerned, the companies involved didn't seem to want the discount amount posted. If I see that, I'm going to respect their wishes, and not post. What could happen if I were to post? Complaining from various people about various aspects of the discount. Somebody figuring out how much profit the companies are making on the device (which, mind you, could be pretty minimal, depending on a lot of factors that I can guess are present but that I know nothing at all about). And if I don't post? People wonder what I'm trying to hide (to which, my answer is, "nothing, I'm honoring a request"). I didn't sign an NDA on this matter, so I can't get in legal trouble for posting* the discount. But if the companies don't offer the discount again because someone posted what it is... that kind of hurts other teams.

Personally, if someone asks nicely, and there isn't a reasonable reason NOT to do what they ask, then I'll generally do what is asked.


*Lawyers, feel free to disagree--but be aware, I have no access to the price myself, other than what others have posted.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

/Sigh. It would take more than one of your "10% off Best Buy Coupon" to get the same deal. Always sad to see engineers that can do stuff to the nearest "thousandth" get tripped up by simple discount calcs.

And you don't know what the discount does to them. Lets assume that they make $45 on each unit, so now they are making $15. Thats a pretty big hit when you then look at 4000 teams buying 2 of these. Thats pretty close to a quarter of a million dollars in "slight dent in their profits for publicity (to a little known robotics competition) and (what may not be a big help in their) tax sake." (comments in the parens are mine).

This is why we don't have nice things. A vendor shows up with a really nice piece of gear, cuts a ~30% price break and their only ask is that you don't tell anyone about how much you paid. Now that the world knows you can get these things for cheap, why wouldn't everyone ask for the price. So now rather than loosing a quarter of a million dollars on some podunk robot group nonsense, they loose $30 in sales on every unit. That ends up being real money in selling 200,000 units.

Lets all go "Hey NI, I want to outfit my mega company process control line with these roboRIO things. I know you sell them for pennies apiece to some insignificant robot group, I want that price. Oh yea, I want the free Labview seats like they get too." How well would that go over?


And yes, I've very deliberately poked at FRC. We are 4,000 small time customers that quite frankly can be a huge PITA. I've yelled at people in the past for abusing suppliers like AM here in the forums. We have dozens of suppliers that offer great deals, great service and ask for you to pay your bill and treat them with some level of respect. This vendor came, offered a deal with a request and it took less than 2 days for FRC to discard their pretty minor request like a used kleenex. Wonder if they will be a 2017 season supplier? Ever wonder why it's just dozens of suppliers and not thousands?

[/rant]

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

I understand why they don't want pricing information getting out.

I do, however, find it silly that information would be posted in such a way that a large group of people can access it, and still wish and expect for the information to stay out of the public eye.

What exactly was stopping FIRST from delaying the blog post until the season began?

You said in your post that we are insignificant and then said now the "world knows". If we are indeed as insignificant as you think then why should we worry about someone posting a price on our own forum.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Because the site is fully Google searchable, there are a ton of links into and out of Chief Delphi, so when you do a search on the device it's got a pretty high page rank.

We should worry since we were asked to NOT do something and didn't listen. FIRST has a momentum up of getting teams early info. Not doing what they asked doesn't set a good tone for them to continue to do things.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

We were never asked to do or not do anything. All that was said is that FIRST and AndyMark couldn't do it. The idea that we shouldn't share the price is purely implicit. "ethics" of sharing the price aside, this is an important distinction.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

I feel that if FIRST did not want us to share the price they would have said something along the lines of "hey please don't share the price". The contract only says that FIRST cant share the price, nothing about us the community and that is clearly stated in the blog. If they took the time to make it clear that they couldn't share the price and if they really wanted us not to share it they would have said something. If FIRST specifically asked US to not share the price I'm sure people would have respected their wishes.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

Is fall CD the new summer CD?

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Pretty sure it's always been like this.

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Even around here, I'm not so sure about that--I believe there was a picture released about 10 months ago that shouldn't have been, and kept getting shared around after it was retracted and people were asked not to share it, or something like that. Maybe if an NDA was required I would be more sure.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

That's pretty much what the difference would have been, I'd guess-- if we'd been asked not to share it, posts with the information would have been edited/removed. Since we weren't asked to, they'll now stick.

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Haw! Haw! Haw! (That's geezer for LOL).

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After the first two pages were all the same back and forth about super secret pricing and the morals of revealing secrets (and then that went on for four more)...

Does anyone know what the boot time for this thing is?
Range?
Durability?
Current draw?
Did anyone ever list where it gets unhappy with low voltage?

I'm not really interested in what the company says about them, looking more for real world use. I like that it is smaller, but I had planned on learning more about it in this thread other than it's size and was sorely mistaken.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

The answers to these important questions are likely to come with Beta testing...to begin when our team and other Beta teams receive the units from headquarters, hopefully soon!

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

We received some of our Beta items (a disk and a new sensor from CtRE) but not the new AP.

Re: [FRC Blog] 2016 Radio Update
 

358 received the new AP and a VRM to test, in addition to LabVIEW.
My programmer also wants to help test the Java and C++ updates, but we're not officially on the hook for that.
We'll begin posting this week on our Beta results.