[FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

Posted on the FRC Blog, 10/13/15: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...p-and-trophies

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

Pit Set-Up the day before is a great change that is sure to help a lot of teams. Now they can get right to it Thursday morning instead of trying to designate who is setting up and who is working on robot.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

If only they had this at district events too. That would make life so much easier. But alas that's the price you pay for more competitions.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

IF it's implemented at a given event. And that is going to be the interesting part of this. (And then there's the undeniable fact that some teams' load-in comes pretty close to setup as it is.)

I've got a funny feeling that the inspectors are going to be asking for some extra hands during load-in periods.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

I've been pushing for this for years. I'm glad it's been implemented and can garuanteee the CVR regional will allow early setup.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

Great idea! Biggest challenge likely to be kicking the teams out at a reasonable time Wednesday evening.;) Pretty sure we will go with this format at LVR, but will know better after our regional planning meeting this Thursday. I will post our intent asap.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

While I'm excited for the ability to set up pits on wed, I'm really sad to hear that we won't be getting 2 trophies to give to sponsors any more. I can't help but feel that there are ways FIRST could reduce the cost of trophies without this solution.*
*Perhaps a redesign of the trophy?
I'm not an expert on cash flow in FIRST, so maybe I'm just mistaken.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

They've already shrunk the size of the trophies once [cue massive complaints] and removed participation medals from the equation (for participation pins in the KOP).

Also, I'm willing to bet that most sponsors have more wall space than trophy case space, which makes a plaque a tad easier to handle.


Here's the thing: All those trophies have to ride the semi for all the events that truck is covering. So on top of the cost of the trophy itself, you have to include the cost of transporting it to up to 5 (6?) events before the one it's supposed to leave the truck at. And the trophies can be rather bulky and awkward. So if there's a plaque instead of a trophy... I suspect I can stack 6 events worth of plaques into a space previously occupied by 2-3 events worth of trophies (or smaller). Means more space for other important items.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

This setup thing sounds great just doubt NYC will be doing it with the high cost of venue time.

Also with the trophies I always assumed one was for your room and the other was for the schools trophy displays. The plaque sounds cool though.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

Very positive changes, I like having two trophies because we have two schools but actually they end up both sitting in our lab most of the time anyway and reducing the costs is a good thing. Love the pit setup the night before. Now we should be able to see some even cooler and more functional pit spaces.

I like that they are looking back over old rules/traditions and seeing what still makes sense in the current FRC world.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

This is what really worries me... events that implement this need additional volunteers on hand to handle it. And events that don't need additional volunteers on hand to handle all of the teams that complain/refuse to accept that this isn't a universal thing. It's going to be painful for a year or two while everyone figures it out and adjusts schedules as needed.

An earlier setup time for teams in a district event isn't possible for the most part since the venue is still being set up before the traditional team arrival at 5pm on Day 1.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

Finally. I've waited years for this change on pit load in and setup. I actually proposed it in a Frank answers Fridays submission a long time ago, and to Frank personally in a face to face discussion many months ago. While the response took a while, they really are listening!

I'll reserve judgement on the trophy issue until I hear whether or not Long Beach and Ventura will have Wednesday night pit setup. ;-)

I'm not sure of why pit setup needs more volunteers, but if that's a barrier to doing it, by all means let us know and we'll find the volunteers.

I am curious how much trophies cost though. And how many do we really go through in a season? 1500? At $50 which I think should be absolute top of the mark for these, that's $75,000 per year. Not insignificant, but also not a gigantic cost considering the scale of the program, and an annual operating budget in the several tens of millions per year.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

The early pit set-up is awesome!

And, for the trophies, I like the fact of having plaques... You can hang them in your workshop without taking to much place, which is, in my opinion, very cool! (My previous team had an overcharged table to put their trophies... It took to much place and you couldn't see the trophies at the back...)

Powerhouses should be happy!

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

This webpage probably has fairly close numbers to what FIRST pays for the trophies.
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...son-order-form

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

I am all for the Trophy/Plaque combo. It offers the teams different set-up options in a very crowded pit. I know for 4607 it will be easier to find a wall space to place plaques and the bulky trophies can sit in our school's trophy case!

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

This, absolutely this. There are wonderful traditions in FIRST that should stick around forever, and there are some things that need to be rethought as time goes on. The trophy setup is absolutely one of them, and hopefully we as a community can keep thinking of improvements to make FIRST more current, innovative, and able to reach as many people as efficiently as possible.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

OMG imagine all the powerhouse teams who were like but we already built a trophy case for the new trophies or they were like phew now we don't have to build one.
But all in all i am all for this change plus cooler with 2 different "prizes" then 2 of the same plus sponsors will appreciate that they getting different(unique) trophy or plaque

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

Currently, any given regional event can get by with 3-4 inspectors on hand for load-in--one cruises the pits, 2-3 check in teams outside/at the entrance, rotate out every now and again. Maybe a couple extra, one in each area, at bigger regionals (or if there's a special case like somebody shipped a robot, an inspector will be hanging out with or around that team while they uncrate). The job of whoever's in the pits is, currently, make sure that setup isn't happening and robot work isn't happening (and, to some extent, act as a walking quick-reference for schedule). When you add in multiple teams setting up (which tends to block views across the pits for some reason--even at L.A., it's pretty easy to see across the pits right after load-in if there isn't setup), it can get a little more interesting to observe and enforce, because now the inspectors actually have to enforce setup rules rather than just blocking setup. A couple of extra inspectors cruising the pits can help with keeping an eye on teams.


My proposal on the setup rules would be: no more than 5 persons (minimum one mentor) inside the venue at any one time per team; set up anything you like within your pit, including the battery chargers; any setup that is unsafe to perform with 5 or fewer persons for whatever reason (I can't think of any, but I'm sure there's something out there somewhere) will result in the team being told to wait on that; and teams that aren't out by some reasonable time after the doors close (5 minutes or so--gotta let the buzzer-beaters drop their gear off) suffer some minor penalty like having to finish in the morning after general opening (not during the morning load-in). Basically, use your noggin, get out on time, and don't crowd the pits.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

I guess a way some venues could keep volunteers required low but allow set up could work. If the venue has enough space, you can require teams keep their bagged robots in some kind of neutral holding area until they are done setting up. As soon as you are done setting up, an RI at the holding area checks your form, escorts a team member and the robot to the pit, and escorts that team member back out.

I was unaware that a chief concern of FIRST would be strictly enforcing something that would be well self policed in the community (teams watching teams not unbagging on Wednesday nights) and while I will fail coming off sore here, they consider the idea of community self policing to be sufficient when it comes to the self proclaimed highest honor in FIRST.

I definitely like these moves, but on the whole barrier to access being a level of enforcement ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

The big concern with this change and bag and tag is someone accidentally unbagging early, and then having to go through some visible process with the LRI so that everyone knows things are fair.

At past events (at least in MN), we've visited each pit after that team is finished loading in and out a nice big green or red sheet on the robot saying they could unbag or that there is a problem they need to resolve first (like taking the bag and tag sheet back to the hotel with them instead of leaving it with the robot as requested). It provides a nice, obvious reminder for teams when they actually get to the venue to do work, and as a system has worked quite nicely. It also reduces pain all around as most teams get checked off the night before, and we only have to worry about a couple of teams the morning of.

With this change, teams will be hanging out in their pit the night before. Sure, they'll set up... And then they'll want to walk around, talk to other teams, check out other robots. Do we try to regulate or stop that? It'll be just like the chaos that normally happens when pits open for work on the first day. If we use the same red and green sheets, someone will undoubtedly see green and snip the ziptie without thinking. If we wait until everyone leaves, then the volunteers have to stay longer to finish the job.

And most of our venues don't have room for a "robot jail". It's something we've used for our state event before, but that event is only 30 teams held in a venue that holds a 63 team regional earlier in the season, which gives us plenty of room.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

It would be nice to know where the trophy cost savings are being applied. Other than that, happy to see logical decisions being made in FRC.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

Personally speaking, just so long as we always get at least 1 trophy, I'm happy. (I mean, they do look pretty cool)

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

So true :)

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

As long as they aren't the district trophies from 2012...

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

In my opinion, the pit setup change is very good and long overdue (although irrelevant to our team in districts) and the trophy/plaque change is reasonable. I'd prefer that they make the second trophy a plaque than they shrink the trophies again... see below.

It is amusing that our 2006 Granite State Regional Winner trophy is decisively larger than our more prestigious trophies from more recent seasons... and saddening.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

I somewhat remember those. Almost glad we didn't win awards that year (though, we didn't win any 2004-2014 exclusive)

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

I like the color code, John. Maybe inspectors could put a white sheet marked 'pre-inspected' on robot bags that clear initially, still use red for problems and kick teams out a half hour earlier than normal if you don't want to ask volunteers to stay a half hour extra. During half hour window with no teams in pits the inspectors just put a green check mark or sticker on the white pre-inspection sheet taped to the robot bags? Teams are told before, during load in that absolutely no bags are to be opened before Thursday morning and then only if green checked? Our load-in at LVR has been 6-8pm. Venue set up has always been far enough along that we could move start to 5:30 without problem if we still wanted teams to have 2 hours for load in/pit set up and get volunteers out by 8 pm. Several ways to make things work, I think.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

I believe the correct term should be: Robo fermé

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

I assume you are connected enough to the RPC in Minnesota if you're not on it. Looks like y'all can just stick with keeping the current system in place since FIRST has left that option available.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

It's a much more difficult decision than that... I'm 100% positive that teams in the area will want this, and that some of them would loudly complain if we don't do it. The RPC (which I am a member of) has to figure out what's best for the region as a whole before making a decision. Items like volunteer availability, venue restrictions, cost (volunteers Wednesday evening usually get fed, which costs $), typical pit setup time in our events (i can think of at least one pit that takes over an hour to setup and a lot of space in the isle to do... How do we monitor safety with a skeleton volunteer crew? Other pits look are practically finished when they wheel the pieces in and put them in the right spot), typical team load-in time (if half the teams load-in during the first half hour, it makes sense to let them hang out and set up their pit. If they all load-in real late because they had to wait until school was out to drive several hours to the event, then it doesn't make sense). These are just the considerations that come to mind right now.

I have no idea what the answer is going to be once we've considered all the factors and decide on what's best for our events. But I expect it will be discussed at our next RPC meeting - we had one last week, so it will probably be a few weeks until we all get together to discuss it.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

This. Really. Bugs. Me. It's why we no longer have a canopy and why we are constantly working on our pit furniture and trying to make it more functional and less decorative.

Seriously, teams that should know better take up valuable space in the aisles of the pit area and cause many safety issues, not just for the inspectors but for other teams. I don't feel like this is something FIRST should issue language around but we as teams should make a bigger deal out of pit preparation etiquette. Pits should be setup quickly and provide a safe place to work without encroaching on the aisles or other pits.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

I don't see a problem with them going to the 1 trophy, 1 plaque idea. The last thing they need to do is shrink the trophies again. At least FRC teams can order more, unlike FTC.

Question to any FRC team that is a World Champion, is your trophy the same size as a state-awarded trophy, or bigger? (I know the FRC Chairman's Trophy is bigger, what about the WINNERs trophy though)

(Our team was "disappointed" to see that our FTC World Champion Trophy was the same size... haha)

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

The division winner trophies from last year are larger than the regional winner trophies.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

This is part of the point of letting teams do it early. If they take up some of the aisle, it's much less of an issue on Wednesday night with 5 or fewer people per team than it is on Thursday morning with every team member wanting to come to the pits. There has always been a window for teams to arrive of a 1-2 hours, and from what I've seen as an inspector (who had to be there for load in), teams tend to not arrive all at the same time on Wednesday. It's rather staggered, so the aisles are even less of an issue than 5 people per team all at the same time.

Just keep the window the same and make all the teams leave by the deadline, and you won't have to keep volunteers any later than normal. Just set the stipulation that when they're done setting up their pits, they need to leave the venue. I think people are making it a bigger issue than it really is.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

I would much rather teams take up the isle space on the wednesday night load-in period than the Thursday "Morning-Scramble" as I like to call it. As people stated the amount of space needed to complete some pits becomes a safety hazard during that early morning when everyone is running around trying to get their robots competition ready. :eek:

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

Since the Peachtree & Georgia Southern Classic will not be doing this, not an issue for me. (We went to districts.) We were there fairly late anyway clearing bag tags. I don't see it taking more volunteers to supervise pit set up. I think telling teams not to un bag robot & keeping the number allowed per team down will solve many issues. The biggest issue I see is keeping teams from trying to fabricate or modify the un-bagged allowance during this time. It has been my experience that few teams try to push these kinds of limits. Even then it is more often ignorance of the rules than malicious intent.

The issue with taken up aisle space during load in is you are moving pits into place at that time. Presumably using the same aisle space. :]

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

They were pretty much these:
https://www.crownawards.com/StoreFro...x_Trophies.cat

But a lable instead of the "engraved" logo. They were really really cheap looking.

I like the look of the plaques from the link, and think those are a really neat idea.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

Thought so.... Would be nice if they did that for the World Champions in FTC.

At least those look better than the FTC Qualifier Trophies... The FTC Qualifier Trophies looks like a "little league" participation trophy....

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

You would have flipped out if you'd been at a regional with 2220 in 2013, then. That was far, far worse than what Jon's talking about now (though I certainly don't intend to put words in your mouth, Jon, I just know that the description you gave matches 2220's pit). I can tell you that more time than some teams spend on their robots has been spent by students and mentors on Blue Twilight trying to figure out how to set that thing up in less time and without leaving the pit. If I remember correctly, the only part that involves leaving the pit now is hanging a TV in the front, and that's a relatively quick thing that, at least when I was with the team, we tended to do Thursday evening specifically for the reasons you've specified-- and it's definitely worth mentioning that 2220 won a couple of UL Safety awards last season for their safety program (which, funnily enough, largely stemmed from the pit back in 13).

Sorry to sort of jump on this, but there's a lot more that goes into setting up some of these displays than some would give these teams credit for. A professional pit also brings something very unique and cool to an event (I still remember being blown away by 2826's pit in 2012-- it was a huge inspiration then and now).

It's also definitely worth mentioning (as others have) that setting up Wednesday would eliminate a huge amount of the jostling around pit setup on practice day. I'm certainly hoping my schedule will allow me to volunteer Wednesday nights to help make this happen at MN events. Just one more of the many small improvements that have made FRC better in the last few years.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

I'd like to take a minute to thank FIRST for their decision regarding load in. From the top it's easy choose a one-size-fits-all rule and make everyone else deal with the drawbacks. This decision seems to be pretty great from an efficiency perspective: event organizers and teams should both be at least as well off as before.

Event organizers have the option to say no, in which case setup proceeds as before. And the organizers don't really even have to add communication since teams can just assume that the new setup is not allowed unless they hear otherwise. Meanwhile, teams may get to set up their pits earlier but if it's not allowed or they don't hear what the event decided they end up the same place they would have been anyway.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

The division winner trophies are similar to the ones they gave way back when to the finalists at regionals.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

And I rather suspect that the complaining teams will also have that "finished" look even if they don't get the early setup. We got 'em out this way too.

Re: [FRC Blog] Pit Set-Up and Trophies
 

My opinion: it is unnecessary to erect a building in one's pit for every competition. If that effort is eating into the time needed for other activities, perhaps it would be best to simplify one's pit setup.