Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Regarding a Camera on the robot. Even if all we needed was to put the image on the dashboard to allow us to drive the robot, I think it still would have issues. I know that with the bandwidth limits and other parameters on the computer/controller the image is rather jerky and difficult to track.

Who knows this might make it resemble teleoperated robots in distant regions (think Mars), but it would make driving much more difficult.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

So long as the lag and jerkyness is equal for all teams playing, I think this would be a pretty neat challenge. Teams would have to develop a method, strategy, or driving style to perform consistently despite the somewhat unpredictable lag.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

So I saw a post earlier saying the two circle type objects in the middle of the blueprint picture look somewhat like a gripper.

My question is, What if FIRST wants us to believe the blueprint is a field? but it is actually clues to the type of game.

Moving left to right.
The vectorized picture makes it easier to see.

The vertical and line angled in on the left could be just miscellaneous lines made to throw us off. The next object to the right looks like a mouse. Possible minibot? Or some type of device we must deploy or field element that moves. The swirly circles look like possible wheels or pivot points throughout the photo.

The next object to the right looks somewhat like a lamp. This could be some type of arm used for picking up an object and placing it high up on something, or an arm or something. Looks somewhat like the arms on the robot in the video. My other thought is that the lamp type object could be a long pole with a pivoting camera uses to see over an obstruction in the field.

The next object to the right in the middle of the picture looks like a two sided mechanism for gripping a pole or odd object. The circle in the middle of the claw could be a pivot point.

Possibly the reason that the picture was made symmetrical was to show that both alliances must use these elements to succeed in the game. I am probably wrong, but this was just an idea I had.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

That would be awful for spectators.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

You are right that totally slipped my mind. It's an awful idea for a spectator perspective.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

What is on that Blue Print. It may describe how the field may be laied out on the [00:12]. give me some ideas.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

What about that glove? Maybe we'll get a big-kid version of this: http://www.techtimes.com/articles/57...n-toys-marvel-

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Hopefully king of the hill!

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

A game hint is released to start up the chatter. Before the release, this forum did not even exist. Now look at it. I would say they are doing a good job of stirring up the pot. Otherwise, I always write down my predictions to prepare for that "I told you so" moment.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

What if they piped all the video feeds to the A/V switcher they use for the other field cams? For the projector/LED panel/Livestream.
Also the spectator/Ref sides could be clear and easy to see through. Also human players could assist from there aswell

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Something tells me that linking 6 laptop-run video feeds to an AV switcher would be a logistical nightmare, seeing as a large amount of teams have enough problems plugging in the ethernet cable and connecting to the FMS before matches..
Perhaps we should pursue another train of thought.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

All the video feeds run through the FMS presumably on a separate port to the driverstation. I'm no networking engineer but it seems very possible to intercept the feeds at that point, instead of sending to the laptop then back.

I digress.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Also, it would be a nightmare for rookie teams and teams with very few resources to even set up the cameras and get them to work, much less use them for display footage during a match.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

What Stack Attack eventually became.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

I enjoyed Stack Attack ... but I'm a little weird like that :yikes:

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

"Launching January 9th."

Flying game confirmed.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Okay I think I read all the posts man you guys can take an object and run a mile with interpretations...

So here are my observations / thoughts the questions I asked in my head and thought them through. Again nothing is known so this is all guess work but hey lets add some hype.
Problem: Why does the blueprint look... wrong.
Answer: Just right off the bat it looks too long and too skinny to be a full playing field. Plus it isn't even symmetrical. If this were to be the field and it did actually have a different "footprint" making venues have to change because the venues aren't all standardized in what kind of building they are in, or like how big of a space that building has. They use what they can get that works.
Solution: Assume that the blueprint is a fraction of the field. http://https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-RZBaph-OvydjNsS3RTTnRsX00&usp=sharing that is a link to a folder with the blueprint mirrored and flipped where the blue print is 1/4th of the field and where it is 1/9th of the field. There is that weird like angled line on a page full of relatively straight lines so I put that weird angle line where I saw it in past games, like the tote chute. I know other configurations are possible and I just chose to mock it up these ways because it is 8am and I am not doing all of them.
Result: You know have a field with 4 zones. King of the hill and capture the flag don't have to be limited to two teams a popular variant I played at a summer camp is called four corner elimination where each corner has a ball and to win one corner must get all the balls. The equivalent here could be still 1 ball per corner just 4 balls on one side. Of course this doesn't solve the issue that in capture the flag and 4 corner you actually have to reset the field after every score and that would be a logistical nightmare.
The other thought I had is that the advantage of capture the flag with 2 points per team and 3 robots per team is that you can't just stall out a game by turtling up. If each side dedicates one robot to defending each corner that leaves one robot free to roam. That robot needs to then overcome the defending robot and the roaming robot on the other side in order to make progress. So take a robot off defense, now all of a sudden you have an open objective with no robot defending it and two robots out to make some plays. That is actually a fun dynamic to watch and see where objectives open up and you dart around and react to the opponents moves in real time.

Also I will be disappointed if FIRST blows the medieval theme without having some form of jousting...
There is actually another important field variation worth discussing but it is seriously too early in the morning for me. I'll compose my thoughts and add it onto here later.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Yeah, my team had the same problem. We were using too much bandwidth in a match and there was only one volunteer in the entire competition that knew how to fix the problem. Then, our next match the code wasn't loading on the robot so we didn't move...

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

I have no idea. But it looks exciting!!!

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Good catch and question!

(I'm sure some of what I am about to say has been mentioned already, so please forgive the redundancy.)
It does appear to have complete symmetry about the mid-field line. Very typical for a FRC two alliance field.

Depending on how you interpret the markings, there may be ramps at both ends as well as scoring platforms similar to this year's.
Although, the "ramps" may be human player loading stations with safe loading zones on the far side of the field from the ramp top.

Notice the flag on top of the tower at 00:05 but missing at 00:27.
Red and Blue flags=Red and Blue Alliances.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Boats are launched too. Into water. ;)

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Video games are launched. Early access game denied.

Gabe Newell is now on the GDC.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Launching? Who do we know on the committee? Oh, yeah, Dave Lavery, that guy who's day job is with...NASA.

Space game! ;->

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Optimistic:
Multiple "flags", 3 alliances. Alliance A has the flags in their base, alliance B and C sort of work together to capture all of them. Alliance A scores based on how long they can defend the flags. Once all the flags have been taken, whichever alliance captured the most flags gets to defend. Possible obstacles that can be pushed. Really hoping for more emphasis on autonomous, but I don't know how it would work for that.

Pessimistic:
Alliances push around towers to prevent the other alliance from scoring in them, Lunacy-style.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

The preview seems more like the preview for a web game than an FRC game. The robots obviously have to connect to USB ports on the field and play videogames autonomously.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Is he back on it? I thought he stepped away the same time as Woodie...

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

I think it will be robotic tents. They do show a lot of tents in the trailer!

Re: Thoughts on the teaser?
 

According to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J5aHLeVa4A , the blueprint is of "a pair of shoes and some rope" so I wouldn't put so much faith in that blueprint.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

He even stepped away from doing the animations (side note: Bring Back Dozer!) as of last year.


That being said, Dave remains on the Executive Advisory Board, as does Woodie (and there are a large number of other people who you'd probably recognize on that board).

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

You couldn't tell

you could tell

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

The story I got from Frank was that Dave not doing the animation last year was a decision based on timing due to the broadcast schedule -- not based on pushing him out or him "stepping away"

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

My take on the teaser: Medieval theme + Historical context (1066 + 950 years) ->Battle of Hastings fought on a field with natural obstacles (bounded by marsh on one side and woods on the other) resulting in a decisive victory by William the Conqueror whose forces took the high ground, slew Harold and captured his standard. William solidified his victory and control by instituting a major castle/stronghold building policy.

Takeaways: Hopefully a return to W-L-T scoring (difficult to see how an average score would work in a capture the flag type setting and they do not call him William the nice guy); defensive and offensive roles for robots; a playing field with challenging or movement restricting terrain features.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

I'd like to see total score/average score (with rounding to the nearest integer) and W-L-T points used as the tie breaker. Frankly, you get a better distribution using average score than you do with the W-L-T method.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

For Recycle Rush, I think that you're totally right - qualification average as the 1st order sort was one of Recycle Rush's greatest successes. If defense is permitted, though, I don't think this would quite work. Match schedule would begin to matter more, because the placement of strong defensive robots could make or break a team's rank. Also, it would hurt strategies that are perfectly valid for simply winning the game, say something like game piece starvation, or anything else that would intentionally keep both scores low, but put you on the winning side.

Furthermore, it could open up a can of worms or six, like: "we know we're outgunned in this match, but let's tell the other alliance that we will play a totally defensive match to deflate their ranking unless they let us take the win by a small margin." ...or something like that.

Of course this is all speculation. I admit, I'd expect that FIRSTliness would help us get over the "can of worms" scenarios as a community, and there may be games where that method of ranking is appropriate - say, there are no strategies that would intentionally keep both alliances at a low (or lower than possible) score. But for most FRC games that I've seen or read about, I don't think that qualification average would be the most appropriate order sort.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

The thing is, going for a defensive strategy is a perfectly valid way to play, and in fact it gives a weak alliance something to actually attempt, don't forget that while the strong alliances qual average may not be as high as it could be, by going strictly defensive the weak alliance is probably hurting their own qual average by more.

No matter what, the best strategy for a high qualification average over a series of matches is to concentrate on getting the highest score possible in each match never to try to hold the other alliance down.

Plus, if their average is 100 and your average is 60, bringing them down isn't going to put you ahead of them, at best, you're acting on behalf of the team that has a qual average of 98.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

(First off my bad if I repeated any ones idea from this thread by accident). On the idea of defending your "stronghold", maybe you have to stop the opposing alliance from stealing game pieces from your side of the field(stronghold). That brings me to my main point, that instead of starting at zero points each team will get lets say 300 points and if an alliance member takes a game piece from the opposing side and brings it to yours, your alliance will get more points while the other gets less, example it is 300-300 and now you have an opposing alliances game piece on your side of the field, it is now 310-290. We haven't seen this in a FIRST game to my knowledge and it might be an interesting scenario.
There are probably loop-holes and bad parts to my idea and I will leave it to you guys to discuss that but I thought it might be an interesting concept for this coming up game.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

But if WLT is primary, and points scored is a tie breaker (even if it is the first), this wouldn't appeal to the dominant alliance at all; they would still do better by winning a low-scoring match than losing a high-scoring one. On the other hand, if the points are primary and WLT is secondary, I'd rather play offense and "lose" 150-100 than play defense and "win" 40-30.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Wouldn't it be in teams' best interest to collude to not play any defense at all, if points scored are the primary ranking?

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

See 2003, 2010.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

I think this may be the best way to do what the rest of the people on this thread are currently talking about--Qualification Average seeding in a non-alliance-separated game. This would make defense a valid strategy because, by definition, the average score of any of the (and therefore all of the) matches would be 300. So purely playing defense with equally matched alliances, where neither team scores, would still give you 300, the competition average, instead of tanking your score by giving you a 0. Throwing a match, however, wouldn't be a good strategy: losing or tying a match could bring your score up, if you had a really low score, but it would never bring you up above the average score.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

And the Noodle Agreement from 2015 (before it was nixed).



If I was going to go in and do a rewrite of the seeding, I'd do it W-L-T, then the average of the score differentials from low to high, THEN average scores high-low.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

So the very best you can do is to win every match by exactly one point, and (should two teams both do this) have high scores at that?

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

You now run yourself into a Breakaway situation, where it may be beneficial to score for your opponent.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Scoring for your opponent was not only beneficial, but actually encouraged for a decent chunk of FRC history. It wasn't always permitted by game mechanics (such as 2005 and 2007 where you couldn't possess the opponent's scoring objects), but for much of the alliance era, you were rewarded for your opponent having a high score. Prior to "WLT" being the first sort, the first sort in the standings was based on match scores (winning socre + 2x loser's score for winning alliance, losing score for losing alliance). This obviously encouraged high scoring matches, and particularly high losing scores. WLT sorting was first implemented in 2004, but the first tiebreaker for the next several seasons was the average loser's score in your matches. Thus, while winning was now a greater priority than high scores in qualifications, a high loser's score was encouraged. It was not uncommon to see powerhouse teams start scoring for their opponent once they had a sufficient lead (especially in 2006).

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Which is totally not confusing for spectators... :rolleyes:

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

I feel like capture the flag is always up for grabs but with the the new FRC Standards (thread for it) I think the game could totally be different. Cause the flags in the teaser may only be talking about the 'Standards' and nothing about the game.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

I see you and I are thinking along the same lines.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Personally this video is just out to make us do super random guesses. Yes maybe there may be small hints in the video but now that they released the team standards ... like i said, this video might as well mean nothing since it was all about the flags. Only thing that we know is there is defense. This game is not going to be what we think even with all the guesses in this thread though who knows, some guesses may be closer than we think.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

So because the flags in the teaser may just be referring to the standards we're seeing now. Any other theories as to what the game might be? I'd like to see King of the Hill, but It'd be hard to play it.

#DenimDerbyConfirmed?

Re: Thoughts on the teaser?
 

We do have to consider the fact that, every year rookie teams are at a disadvantage. No matter the game.

Re: Thoughts on the teaser?
 

Which is why I'm sure the Game Development group makes an effort to avoid increasing that disadvantage.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

The teaser has castles. Castles mean moats. Moats mean WATER GAME!!!!

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Off topic: What is the font used in the FIRST Stronghold logo?

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

I don't know, but the should have used Trebuchet :rolleyes:

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

It looks very similar to the Lord of the Rings font called "Ringbearer". I don't think it's exact, but very similar to the font used for the Stronghold logo.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

True teaser! To my knowledge after watching the video, I think it will be an interesting year full of excitement. I can't wait.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

And moat rhymes with goat...

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

I contacted FIRST. They said it's called Prophecy.

Re: Thoughts on the teaser?
 

I think this might be worth considering. The dragon on the red flag is a different design than on the blue flag, and there is mention of attacking the challenge together (I'm not sure exactly what the verb used in the video is). No students were shown with a red flag, or in the same area as the red flag. All students were in a fairground that was oddly reminiscent of a pit area with different teams having different colours and set ups, so the setting of the video could be representative of a competition with largely separate areas. Field staff competing with students would introduce too much inconsistency, but it does seem like teams might be cooperating more than ever.

Re: Thoughts on the teaser?
 

More than 4 vs 0?

Is there another teaser coming out before Kickoff?

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Quite often FIRST will provide an official game hint the week of Christmas. The timing of which is variable, so keep your eyes open.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

No, I have not read through everything, but did anyone notice the new slick bumper material that AndyMark is selling? :::rtm::

From the description: "This material is slick in comparison to other bumper material like am-2676. This may be useful in situations when you want objects or elements to slide on your robot bumper rather than grip to it."

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

AndyMark has been putting out all kinds of weird and wonderful new things. Slick bumper material, tank drive... one can only wonder what you would do with those...

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

I wouldn't take what Andymark is producing too seriously. Andy said on the FUN podcast/show thing said it was geared to a more industrial customer and not is wasn't solely for FRC.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Oh, I realize that, but it's still fun to speculate ::rtm::

I wonder what industrial customers are building FRC-size tank drive vehicles though. :cool:

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Conveyor systems not drive platforms.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Industrial was a poor word choice. More like Commercial Use he used examples like: Firefighters and Swat Teams

https://youtu.be/EmN0v9IZb38?t=48m25s

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

Well, I haven't read all of the pages, but I did make it through about half, plus the couple before this one, so I figure I'll throw in my (late) two cents.

1. The font. The similarity to the "Ringbearer" LOTR font has been brought up on a few different occasions (I know that someone also found out that that is not the exact font used, but bear with me). The font is also somewhat similar to the fonts in the titles of a few different Disney movies (Again, somewhat with a loose definition). Seeing as WDI made the video, I went through to look at the plots of the different movies. It seemed that all of the ones in question were medieval and involved sneaking into somewhere to either retrieve or deposit something precious to them (Pun intended, since that pretty much describes Frodo's mission as well). This, in part leads to #2

2. Capture the Flag. There have been a few indications that this is a possibility. The font, the missing flag, and the flag on the robot. There are probably a few I missed.

3. The blueprint. I am of the opinion that first has revealed the field layout through the blueprint. I also think that, because it's a themed game, we may be seeing a lot of "static", if you will, not only in the form of random lines and the like, but also possibly in the form of aesthetics on the field drawing that will either not be there, or won't be very prominent. It looks like a very busy field, but there are certain things that wouldn't quite fit. Too much that, if it was very tall, would block driver vision way too much. So, some of those things (like the double lines going to the circles on the other side of the field) could be short, like the steps from last year, or could be higher up, like the return chutes from 2010.

4. What has thusfar been implied about the field components (I'm gonna include the blueprint in this one, just because). The blueprint suggests that we have a few different circular protrusions, maybe turrets, but what catches my interest more is the things at the center, and at the sides. The center part that some people has said looks like a hill to me looks almost like a motte and bailey style castle, with two separate walled in sections and a moat around. I'm not sure what purpose they would serve, but one thought is that they could have to do with any "capture the flag" elements. At the ends of the field are also some strange looking shapes, which I think could be what was looked at in This video at about 0:20. The camera is tilted up, indicating something tall, maybe visible from the pits (As has been brought up with respect to the tower visible from the tens in the teaser video). As for the game pieces, well, that's a bit annoying to try to figure out.

5. Game pieces. Well, a lot depends on if we take what is said at 0:15 of the "Security Breach" video as sarcastic/ deliberately misleading, or as serious. If it's serious, we probably have capture the flag/king of the hill, since we haven't had a game piece that resembles a flag before. If it's sarcastic, then we probably have balls that we're trying to score somewhere, which would fit the pattern that FIRST has kept with for the last 12 or so years of having every other game be a ball game, with a pattern of small, small, large, small, small, large.

I think that we are going to end up with a game with two different scoring methods, one being capture the flag or king of the hill style as a point booster/multiplier/infusion, and the main one being shooting or herding balls somewhere on the field. That said, I think everything is designed to confuse us, and nothing will make sense until kickoff.

Essentially, FIRST is trying to screw with our heads, and a lot is uncertain right now, but if I got any of that anywhere near right, I'm going to be jumping with joy more than normal at kickoff.

See you all there, and good luck this season folks!

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

I suspect this is in response to a bumper design that 971 and 1678 put together in 2014. We had to get the material from a different vendor.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

One more image of the blueprint.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

The blueprints look like the playing field.
Here's the map with contrast increased, skewed to correct angles, and lines traced:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...d=14522040 79
Now just the lines traced:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...d=14522040 79
Now removing unnecessary lines:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...d=14522040 79
Finally, colored in:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...d=14522040 79

As you can see, it looks like there are two catapults or trebuchets-- one on each end. Appears to be two "strongholds" in the center, along with two smaller "buildings." Along with a truss on each side, like the 2014 game.
My guess from this is it's a projectile game, where there will be towers in the center, and the teams will have to use some sort of provided ammunition to knock down the opponents towers. (images attached too in same order)

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

possibly capture the flag

anyone heard whats going on with the game
 

Im so stressed from not knowing about the game.
Please help:confused:

Re: anyone heard whats going on with the game
 

If worrying about the game is causing you anxiety, find some way to get some sleep between now and Saturday morning. I normally try to avoid medication, but tonight and/or tomorrow night may be good candidates for sleep aids. There's practically no chance of forming a habit, as you won't need them for the next six weeks.

OBTW, why is it that the soft sciences can't distinguish between stress and strain?

Re: anyone heard whats going on with the game
 

I can't think of anything that's mohr easy to understand than the relationship between stress and strain!

Re: anyone heard whats going on with the game
 

I see what you did there but we'll circle back if other people don't get it.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

My response to the last three posts: https://youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A

Re: anyone heard whats going on with the game
 

This joke is probably out of the element here. But in all seriousness, we have not had a ramp or trailer game in quite a few years and based on previous game trends I certainly think we are overdue for one. A ball game is almost a given seeing the trends too.

Re: Official FIRST Stronghold Teaser!
 

capture the flag with a section where the lights go out :deadhorse: :cool: ::ouch:: :ahh: :eek: