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-   -   FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards' (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138930)

Anupam Goli 05-11-2015 13:09

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay O'Donnell (Post 1503431)
I don't see why we have to have sport themed games for it to be "cool". I brought some friends of mine to a competition this year who would be considered "jocks" or "cool kids" and they didn't care that it was recycling themed (which I would say is worse than medieval in terms of bringing people into FIRST). All they saw were the cool robots doing things and how much fun it was.

Not everyone likes sports, some people like other things such as fantasy. We've had plenty of opportunities to use sports themes to bring people in. And this Standard is just like recycling cans this year: symbolic of a theme that matters less than the robots itself.
...

I agree, it doesn't have to be sport themed for it to be cool. I don't think there should be a theme for our games, just give us a good competitive game with defense. As Jared said, the most important part is having a competitive game on the field that is fun to play and spectator friendly. Watching robots stack crates will look kinda interesting at best, but watching robots fighting for game pieces and executing strategies, with some good crowd excitement may actually get people not under the tent to look more into it.

I think had FIRST announced the theme as part of the game at kickoff, this announcement would've been received better. It just feels like HQ is trying too hard to make it a "thing". I've seen ads on sites I visit for Stronghold, and if the first impression of FRC someone gets is a cartoon trailer and a medieval theme, they'll think it's just some ren fair re-enactment using robots or something. We have nerds under the tent. What we want are more engineers to want to mentor, and more of the other crowds of kids.

As far as the standard is concerned, it'll be great to have another display of our brand, logo, and sponsors. I could care less about badges and streamers and that nonsense. Our standard will probably just be a professional display that reflects our team. It's a neat idea, and would've been even cooler if they just told us "you can have a team display above your driver station now, here are the specs:", instead of integrating it with the theme.

PayneTrain 05-11-2015 13:18

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anupam Goli (Post 1503440)
It's a neat idea, and would've been even cooler if they just told us "you can have a team display above your driver station now, here are the specs:", instead of integrating it with the theme.

That's my major logistical issue. Teams like to reuse things because we're not all made of money, and half of the money we're made of goes to registering for and attending the competitions. I see it as teams getting to mark off their "endzone" which sounds neat, but really broad and uneven rules and stretching to tie it into the theme is offputting and concerning. I'm not someone busting down doors screaming "THESE ARE THE END TIMES" but whatever.

Also, I don't remember there being a lot of groans over teams who won the 4 banner awards at an event being able to cut down the nets in 2012. Why? Great game with a neat theme that wasn't forced. We're projecting the 2015 experience onto the 2016 theme. It's not entirely unfair, but it's a conclusion drawn from incomplete facts.

Brandon Holley 05-11-2015 13:43

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s_forbes (Post 1503252)
I like the idea of having team flags showing over the field during the match. I'm going to predict that some will look like this though:


I can't quite put my finger on it...but there is something about your standard that I am REALLY liking.

Brando

Ryan Dognaux 05-11-2015 13:52

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Briansmithtown (Post 1503327)
Also kinda make it look a bit more, ugh should I say, nerdy. :mad: :mad:

Sorry to burst your bubble... but FIRST is kind of nerdy. Competitive robotics is kind of nerdy. What's wrong with being nerdy? I'd argue that being nerdy is cooler than it used to be too and I'd like to think we're changing the connotation of that word.

I know some students on our team will be pumped to spend a few hours on this. I don't see anything wrong with it, it's really no different than a game-themed team flag that gets posted before a match. Plus you get 2 months to spend an hour or two making it. Not that big of a deal.

PayneTrain 05-11-2015 14:03

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux (Post 1503450)
Sorry to burst your bubble... but FIRST is kind of nerdy. Competitive robotics is nerdy. What's wrong with being nerdy?

I know some students on our team will be pumped to spend a few hours on this. I don't see anything wrong with it, it's really no different than a game-themed team flag that gets posted before a match. Plus you get 2 months to spend an hour or two making it. Not that big of a deal.

FRC, to me, is the flagship program for competitive robotics/STEM education. The sport should lead people to get involved with all CR/STEM Ed programs; especially who would not be involved in or have any knowledge of this realm or its affects on their lives. I would imagine and hope FIRST thinks this as well.

However, there are many schools of thought on how to operate FRC to achieve this. FIRST thinks shotgunning rookie grants, diluting championships, and layering on frills is the answer. Some people think embracing nerdiness is the answer. I think those people live in a bubble. :/

Michael Corsetto 05-11-2015 14:09

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1503453)
However, there are many schools of thought on how to operate FRC to achieve this. FIRST thinks shotgunning rookie grants, diluting championships, and layering on frills is the answer. Some people think embracing nerdiness is the answer. I think those people live in a bubble. :/

#feelthepayne

Thad House 05-11-2015 14:11

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1503453)
However, there are many schools of thought on how to operate FRC to achieve this. FIRST thinks shotgunning rookie grants, diluting championships, and layering on frills is the answer. Some people think embracing nerdiness is the answer. I think those people live in a bubble. :/

And some day that bubble is going to get popped, which is gonna be...interesting...

Lil' Lavery 05-11-2015 14:27

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
If we're spinning empty rhetoric, what evidence is there that "bubble" doesn't exist around those who feel that FRC isn't "cool" enough?

"Geeky" and "nerdy" are trendier than ever. Video games have become a part of mainstream culture. The upcoming Star Wars film directed by JJ Abrams is likely going to be the biggest blockbuster in movie history. Comic Con is now a huge mainstream event, and comic book movies top the box office charts. Star Trek and the X Files are returning to TV. Mediocre reviewed Hobbit films grossed over $3B worldwide. You see members of the audience at NFL games in what can only be described as cosplay. Neil deGrasse Tyson is a internet demigod. "I F***ing Love Science" is a massive social media presence. It's time to capture the zeitgeist of pop culture geekiness and convert it into honest-to-goodness appreciation for STEM. There are still plenty of "geeks" and "nerds" who appreciate the pop culture and video games, but don't know what goes into them. It's time to take the fans of science fiction and fantasy and make them fans of science. "Normal people" are far more open to the nerdy aspects of culture than you expect.

Do I love "theme games?" No. I don't. But the ridiculous vitriol expressed towards every decision FIRST has without any consideration of the possibility is tiring. There's no reason to think that a theme game will be any worse than a "non-themed" game. We've done sports games and "non-themed" games for decades, I'm open to the possibility of trying something else. I'm open to the possibility that maybe Disney and FIRST HQ might know something about game design and public appeal that I don't. I'm fine that my personal vision of FIRST is not 100% congruent with FIRST HQ's. That doesn't mean I'm "in a bubble."

Cut out the ridiculous vitriol. It's tiresome. Be productive.

MoistRobot 05-11-2015 15:00

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1503386)
Game of Thrones is cool, LARPing is not.

Heresy! Burrrn him!

Ryan Dognaux 05-11-2015 15:12

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1503453)
However, there are many schools of thought on how to operate FRC to achieve this. FIRST thinks shotgunning rookie grants, diluting championships, and layering on frills is the answer. Some people think embracing nerdiness is the answer. I think those people live in a bubble. :/

I guess I fail to see how an optional flag is going to change the overall view of FIRST or turn people off to competitive robotics. I don't think this 'optional frill' is on the same level as your other two examples.

Everyone overreacts to this because they don't have a robot to build. If it were January there'd be a handful of posts on this thread. Build season can't come soon enough.

jman4747 05-11-2015 15:19

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
I think it's a decent idea. I don't think the standards have some huge negative or positive effect on the competition other than aesthetically matching the "theme" witch is good.

The theme itself doesn't strike me as invasive really. It's more like adding a paint job to a car than changing out engine components. To me it really doesn't feel much different than just naming a game. Like how Aerial Assist has "aerial" referencing launching balls and "assist" referencing the assist/passing system.

2015: "recycle" = cans/litter
2013: "assent" = climbing pyramid
2012: "rebound" = basket ball hoops/ball
2011: "logo" = FIRST logo parts
2016: "stronghold" = something about game play just as it usually has

Thus I don't see how naming something and having a new cosmetic option for teams would detract from the game design. I'll bet any game could be framed to fit many different names and "themes" but ultimately the flow of the match, the difficulty level, and the spectators understanding are what will make it fun to watch or play. These things can be good or bad regardless of theme or name.

And to the cynics saying FIRST might compromise the game for the theme, what if they made a good game and found a theme to fit it instead of the other way around?

marshall 05-11-2015 15:48

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
I would like to see teams using retroreflective tape on the standards. This could theoretically enable teams to find known landmarks on the field for better autonomous.

Actually, it doesn't even need to be retroreflective really, just a color and shape you can identify at a distance. I'm seriously going to ask one of our students for a unique Zebracorn logo for this purpose.

EDIT: As pointed out below, the retroreflective tape idea is a no-go.

bEdhEd 05-11-2015 15:52

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1503458)
I'm open to the possibility that maybe Disney and FIRST HQ might know something about game design and public appeal that I don't.

Considering that Disney comes in second to Comcast for the biggest media conglomerate, I'd have to lean on the idea that Disney knows what they are doing in terms of marketing and publicity. To be honest, when it comes to marketing and public appeal, how do you go wrong with Disney as a partner? Relative to FIRST, they're bigger and have been around longer and have a demographic that spans all ages, races, and financial and educational backgrounds.

Maybe Disney Imagineering is EXACTLY what we need to increase appeal.

Christopher149 05-11-2015 15:52

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marshall (Post 1503480)
I would like to see teams using retroreflective tape on the standards. This could theoretically enable teams to find known landmarks on the field for better autonomous.

Actually, it doesn't even need to be retroreflective really, just a color and shape you can identify at a distance. I'm seriously going to ask one of our students for a unique Zebracorn logo for this purpose.

From the spec sheet: "They may not include retroreflective tape..."

marshall 05-11-2015 15:53

Re: FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher149 (Post 1503482)
From the spec sheet: "They may not include retroreflective tape..."

Well there goes that idea...


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