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FRC Blog - Something New - Team 'Standards'
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...team-standards
I didn't see a link to the newest forum post yet. Interesting concept. It seems that the medieval theme is going to carry over into gameplay. (I'm not fancy and don't know how to quote the body of the blog post like Hallry does so I apologize) |
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No game elements above the driver stations this year.
Not sure how I feel about the Standards. Definitely different. |
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Just. Awesome.
I love the idea, the fact that every team's standard will be different, the fact that we can start it in the preseason, the fact that we get patches to add to our standard... It's just awesome... |
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Ah yes, the next step forward in making FRC more professional and attractive to television and outsiders.
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Great idea! I've posted a comment asking for two history patches, as they want two-sided flags. Also, if you want some history on this style of flag, don't look for a standard, look for a Gonfalon.
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College football does something similar by adding helmet stickers for players who reach certain achievements throughout their playing career. I don't mind FIRST going all in on a theme as long as it helps people understand action on the field, as opposed to FLL style themes that have little to no effect during their matches. I think this is a much better execution of a game theme than the teaser trailer. |
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Obviously if it's a bunch of streamers just floating above driver stations it will appear childish or like some kind of medieval castle. But this is an opportunity for teams to show off their branding. Imagine if instead of "standards" FIRST said "teams can now choose to display their logo over their driver station for recognizability for the crowd/audience."
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I like the idea of teams being able to display their brand in a static, standardized method like something you see at center ice or in an endzone.
The streamers, loose controls over design, STREAMERS... uhh... Not really a win for those who see FRC as something that should have a professional look, but a definite victory for those who think FRC is supposed to be FLL for high schoolers. |
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For those of you talking about how this will detract from the "professional look", strive to make your standard look professional and help other teams do the same. No need to talk down about FIRST trying something new that doesn't impact competitions in a serious way. I'm excited that non-STEM interested students will have more things to do and stay involved with an FRC team (disclaimer: my girlfriend does the art stuff for my old team).
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Are you kidding me? FRC has many problems but "not enough chances for teams to express themselves" is not one of them.
Can we maybe address the abysmal/decentralized webcasts, lack of recorded footage, high cost of participation, lack of quality control at events, abusive volunteers... ? Nah, but we got banners yo. |
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I would like to see those problems fixed as well, but it doesn't mean that FIRST should do absolutely nothing until they are addressed to our satisfaction. This would be akin to saying the Red Cross shouldn't run fundraising efforts to combat malaria until the bubonic plague is completely eradicated. |
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I'm being facetious of course, but the point is that the thought and effort that went into this could easily have been used for something more useful. It's more akin to saying the Red Cross should stop throwing cocktail parties for poodles until the bubonic plague is eradicated. |
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Can't wait to bring our trumpet heralds to accompany our drive team from pit to que:D
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I think our main point of disagreement is the amount of thought or effort that FIRST put into this. I don't think it was a big enough brain drain to be detrimental to HQ's efforts to fix those problems. |
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I almost wish everyone had to submit their team logo and like 2 color choices and FIRST would make/print them so they all look uniform. I think that would be the correct way to do it and make it look professional.
most teams can't even make good looking bumpers.... |
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http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...-SCENES-AT-IRI I think us here in Indiana like the pilot program trial for webcasts we did last year and are hoping something similar continues in the future. If not centralized by FIRST we will work as a district to provide a similar setup at our events. But, more on the actual topic... My team is very excited to create a team standard and love the idea of acquiring patches and streamers throughout the year. Learning about this now helps us get even more enthusiastic about this year's game theme. |
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In all seriousness, having a camera there would be good. That got me thinking that these standards are going to block the view of the field in stadiums. |
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But in all seriousness, while the intent is cool, I'm becoming more and more hesitant about this medieval theme. FIRST seems to be going too strong with it, and the season hasn't even started yet. |
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Kickoff will still come, robots will still be built, matches will still be played, a few champions will still be crowned, and a bunch of students will still get inspired. All this will happen with a medieval theme this year. Get over it. |
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Instead of bashing everything they are doing, try to figure out how you can work with it. They have given teams the opportunity to make something fun and themed this year before the start of the season. Many teams should have more than adequate time to create something unique and interesting that represents them in a new way. I mean, think of all the flags as well. There is no standard for flags, and some teams have something fun and small, others make flags that no MC wants to touch because they weigh 40 lbs. No one is saying ban the flags. It is part of what makes FRC, FRC. It has become part of the culture. Yes, I agree that maybe a medieval theme may not play well to the general public, but think about how much money a company like Medieval Times makes every year. I for one think that the theme this year will help make a more cohesive event look and feel, even if it may not be the most broadly appealing. |
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I don't know about you, but I'd take a theme involving knights and castles over one involving litter and garbage cans any day. |
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I like the idea of having team flags showing over the field during the match. I'm going to predict that some will look like this though:
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I think many of the people complaining about the appeal to "normal people" have a pretty cynical view of "normal people."
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I'm a little skeptical, but given that it's OPTIONAL (that's for anybody who didn't catch that in the blog post), I'm willing to wait and see. By the way, that little thing about it being optional: If you don't like it, don't do it. I think FIRST is smart enough to figure out that a lot of empty standard holders means people don't like the idea. And, I would guess further that that would mean that they put this in with "floppies", 1v1v1, and the Coopertition Award as "ideas to NOT recycle". |
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Does this mean that Arts is sneaking into STEM, making STEAM?
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Week 1... I can see it now!
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In terms of standards I think that they are a great idea. Some may be complaining about themes, effort, and being professional. I say why can't the game have a fun theme and still be professional? People can be whimsical and professional, look at google, the multi billion dollar tech corporation. What do you see when you enter their HQ? A giant slide. Besides a lot of engineers that I know are still kids at heart.
This is a competition for high schoolers. For all the time we spend having to go to school, and be serious, we still love to have fun. We embrace themes. If FIRST's goal was to always be professional then why is there dancing and music at the competitions? |
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The real question is: will your standard be a pirate flag? |
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Am I the only one thinking about how many pieces of electronics you could pack into this thing? Without any limits, I could envision some neat applications, some of which possibly could be used to enhance the robot's on-field performance. I think smarter teams are going to find a way to utilize this "extra thing you can put on the field" to their strategic advantage in the game.
That said, I was thrilled at the removal of bumpers last year. I'm not thrilled at yet another thing to have to build, transport, and store in our put area. Furthermore, of course this is going to turn I to another competition of who can make the "most bling" standard. While it is optional, if everyone has one and you don't, well... Many teams cannot even make their robot look decent and meet compliance with rules like displaying the team number. This "standard" just seems like another distraction that is going to take time away from what really matters. While I may not be all for it, I'm not entirely against it, yet. I'm willing to see how this pans out. I kind of want to CNC machine a one piece one from a solid slab of aluminum. I'm just hoping FRC doesn't start becoming a competition of poster board, glitter, and glue. Also, should I get a jump on things and start the thread named "Petition to end the pit area parades led by standard-wielding students?" My crystal ball tells me this is going to be a thing. I also predict at least one person is going to get hit by one of these things while traversing the pit area. If that one person happens to be me, consider it two people who will be hit by one. :D |
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crew, opponent drivers, or audience members. During a match, the Standard must be fixed, physically and visually (i.e. no strobing, flashing, etc.)." |
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Oh, and what about a bonus for teams which can properly describe their banners in heraldic language? Gules, a tiger rampant, surmounting a sprocket of nine teeth argent.. |
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I think giving teams a better opportunity to brand themselves in the area of the field your average spectator would look for your team is great. However, the odds that many teams don't make very quality/professional looking ones will give it somewhat of a school project kind of feel. Add the theme part of it being like a medieval banner and it could turn prospective high school students interested in the program away. As far as those saying if you don't like it, don't do it; that just doesn't make sense. Good teams aren't going to want to miss out on branding their team and standing out for having a better looking more professional banner. I think a better idea especially in years to come would be to have a sign area that can be at the top of your drive station glass that can have your name and logo, similar looking to an end zone in football, etc. Simpler, and it could even be a standardized template that FIRST so that the quality of them from team to team doesn't differ much. |
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-- <3lb total weight (and that includes the supports). -- <3" thick (not a big deal, for most electronics). -- Flexible material (the banner portion, that is)--wires flex, though. -- And the big one: during matches, it must be fixed physically and visually. (There's also the standard "no distracting opponents" language, but that's kind of a side thing.) What I would take that to mean would be that if there was a flashing light, or a color changing light, particularly if it was distracting, the field staff would have a friendly chat after the match. (Though there's nothing about BETWEEN matches, displaying while not in a match, and any time not in a match. Important note.) That being said, if you can do electronics within the requirements (er, "standard standards" :p ), why not? |
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Personally, my mind filled with negative thoughts when I started reading the blogs post, but at the mention of badges and other symbols given at competitions, I'm optimistic.
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Why don't we just make the theme of a robotics competition ...a robotics competition? |
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Did I mention that I'm loving this theme?
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I think we need to look at this in another way... We should talk about the fact that this will straighten teams branding and that it will help anyone watching the matches to figure out which team is which (A lot of people don't know the team numbers at a competition... It can help to see a logo above the team number and to be able to match it with a robot...). |
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Alternately, while they can't have retroreflective tape, there's many ways these could be used for vision targets. This could be a feasible way to make a full-field positioning system like [faust1706] and other have been talking about for a couple of years now. Make two banners and give them to your alliance partners in stations 1 and 3, then mount a camera on top of your robot. Unless we have another stacking game or some serious field element clutter, pretty good visibility could be maintained. |
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Id say there is a 80% chance they are going to say it has to be decorative. There is always a gray area with this sort of stuff no matter what regulations FIRST sets forth.
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I'd be inclined to agree: no bigger than allowed--that means some batteries in there to power everything, and batteries aren't the lightest things in the world as a general rule. Though I do agree on the use of standards as vision targets. As currently written, there is nothing that would prohibit that (though Ryan's suggestion of giving partners standards is probably going to be pushing it; after last year's cheesecake epidemic, I would expect a mild rules/interpretations tightening). I wouldn't be surprised to see some teams with several variations of standards... |
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I think that they'll soon add a rule saying : "You can only use a standard representing your team"... |
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Edit: Ninja'd... |
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------------------------ Like a lot of people, I have my list of concerns about the direction FIRST is headed in locally and program-wide. It's still ridiculously expensive to start and maintain a team, South Carolina's one of the three remaining non-district states on the east coast (making a standard two-event season even more expensive), the Game Design Committee is on a one-game losing streak (and the one before wasn't a big win), and I'm still looking for my first person that heard about Championsplit and says "Billfred, that's a great idea!". But y'know, this could be fun. And it's not like the LED team number signs are that easy to spot either. I say we let this one play out and see. |
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Since our team's annual theming is a BIG DEAL for us, and since we decided our theme for the coming year more than six months ago, we will carry on and make a standard that matches our theme, and we will ignore the medieval stuff. It's strange to me that FRC has taken to themes that would be more appropriate (to my mind) for elementary school events, but whatever. It's not going to hurt anything, I think.
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I really like the idea of having an easy to see how well a team has done this season.
(pre-apologies->small off-topic rant) But our team is only planning to go to one event (and Champs if we win the regional). I wish that we went to more than one event, but it is so expensive. Our lead mentor thinks that the extra ~10k that we spend on attending a regional can be used more efficiently to educate students about STEM. I agree with this to a certain extent, but a part of me can't resist the adrenaline rush and other amazing feelings and inspirations that come with attending an event. What is the mentality of other teams regarding this issue? (This thread is probably not the best place, sorry.) What about patches for accomplishments in previous seasons? Even just a simple "FRC 2014" to show that you competed that year? |
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I'm hesitant on the idea on banners, while I understand they will be a fun addition to the field. You gotta wonder, "what's next?" Hopefully the GDC will drop a good game this year!
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[/rimshot] |
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WATER GAME CONFIRMED!! |
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(Actually, I had the same thought, but left it out just to keep this from going that route.) |
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Well, time to talk to my team tomorrow about this! I think the standards are a neat idea, especially if you've got a matching one hanging in the pit! I've already got some designs brewing in my head. Celtic/Norse knots definitely should be part of our design. Might upload a pic of a draft/sketch later when I have time.
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Some of these post could very well be replaced with: "darned FIRST needs to stay off my lawn!"
To the point of streamers being "unprofessional," I guess you were never in the scouts where steamers are used to show the accomplishments of the unit. They also use streamers in the military to show the deployment or honors of the unit. Is the US military unprofessional because they have steamers on a standard? hardly. I think some folks need a nap before they post on forums. |
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That would not be enjoyable for any teams who worked hard on a standard though. At least they'd be able to stick it up in the pit or have a mascot hold it. |
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This is beyond pointless. The crowd won't really be looking at the flags, the opponents will be to busy driving, and this will just add more time to the field setup, which already is a bit too long. When I first got involved, FIRST was all about the future and interesting people into science and technology, but now it's just kinda stepping back. These flags will make it look like an animatronic Medeival times. Also kinda make it look a bit more, ugh should I say, nerdy. :mad: :mad:
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I can see the judges circled around the arena with a side of meat at hand. Maybe instead of blue shirts they'll wear blue paper crowns. ![]() The medieval stuff is a little nerdy, yes, but it beats last year's theme. It sparks the imagination a bit more, at least for me. |
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Anyone else wondering about the specifications? They don't say you have to build a particular support structure, but the size and material specs talk about vertical and horizontal supports as if they have a design in mind that they'd like us to stick to.
I'm not a huge fan, and I'm wary of loose fabric and streamers and the possibility of interfering with action on the field. Hoping to keep this a professional, clean presentation of our team's image, and not something distracting, over the top, and hard on the eyes. Also, there are many ways to build the support structure, and wise teams will play with that degree of freedom and others to see what can be done with a standard other than just repping the team with a fabric flag. At the very least I'd see if we can tie down the bottom... |
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At some arenas, this will block the view of spectators as much as, if not more than, the Aerial Assist or Ultimate Ascent goals did.
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All this being said, I like this idea. It puts the A in STEM. Now, if the endgame involved impaling a losing alliance's Robot with your "standard" for 50 points...... That would be an engineering challenge beyond a six-stack with a can & noodle. |
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So, since we've obviously had ample chances to express ourselves and celebrate our achievements prior to this, why do we need to add more? Also, I'm pretty sure FIRST will frown if we attempt to put an egg plant up there... or a pineapple. Maybe less so a cheesecake but I think that might start to smell a little fresh by the end of the event. [1] I'm not anti fun/all serious business all the time. I'm just curious what the thought process behind "teams don't have enough ways to express themselves" was. [1] these have all been 125 "flags" in the last year. Also on this list was a water bottle that the students made into a strange mouse looking thing, sometimes I question where they even GET these objects. Strangest moment I've had in FRC was walking into the pit to see a student drilling a hole in a pineapple. |
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I would say "this place used to be friendly" but that's too much irony for me! Not to mention it's untrue. CD has always been a place for 'distinguished but elderly scientists'. I'm not a huge fan of the standards and I want to know if I can put a camera on ours for a multitude of reasons BUT by all means, if it helps me get at least one more student hyped up for build season then I guess FIRST HQ can drag out the mission accomplished banner*. *This year the mission accomplished banner is actually a mission accomplished plaque. |
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After looking over the specs, for our team, I see this as an additional way to recognize our sponsors.
My initial thought was to make the standard out of a vinyl banner instead of fabric or felt. More durable, full color, and professional. For everyone dreaming of going way over the top on this, remember the cumulative weight has to be 3 lbs. or less. |
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Yes get off my lawn, and get the overly nerdy things of FIRST's lawn so that we can make it a more inviting environment for the general public. Let's face it, the average high school student doesn't want to join a nerd club. If we focus more on a clean sports like competitive environment, we can attract more mainstream people and achieve the culture change FIRST is striving for. |
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If only more people were able to look past the medieval/fantasy themes and enjoy Game of Thrones. Perhaps then it would be recognized. It's a pity it's shoved into the corner as "too nerdy" for mainstream culture, however. :( :(
obvious sarcasm |
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Game of Thrones is cool, LARPing is not. |
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If you don't want to have the standard, don't make one. |
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Standards, badges and streamers, oh my...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ChQK8j6so8 |
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Actually, motorsport is a close approximation to what a mainstream FRC looks like. It's all about iterative design. |
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The point is this: Why are we trying to put down something that another group likes to do? Are we in some sort of nerd pecking order? How many years have we been fighting to make robots "cool?" (It's still nerdy/geeky and i'm ok with that.) If you don't like the theme, that's fine. Don't partake in it. This "fantasy" theme is very mainstream. Look at the pop culture this is centered around fantasy. Maybe, just maybe, they are trying to appeal to a different population that has not been interested in FIRST before? |
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I could not care less what the theme of the game is. A popular sport, excavating moon rocks, medieval times, waste management, or no theme at all...it's all the same to me.
What I do care about is that the game and engineering challenge are exciting and inspiring to watch and for teams of all levels to participate in. This is almost entirely independent of the theme - you can give any game mechanic a cute name that fits a given motif ("moon rocks", "litter", etc.) Given that FIRST wants to reach as broad an audience as possible, it seems to me a reasonable decision for them to add a theme on top of a well-designed game challenge in order to appeal to other types of people. I only have so much energy for complaining every year, so I'd much rather save mine for things that matter. |
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Also to people just complaining and being negative here, please go be negative elsewhere. |
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Remember, we all want the same thing here; more inspiration and a wider reach for the program. We just disagree with the methods. |
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FIRST has a history of game design that does a poor job of incentivizing teams to do things in the manner the GDC envisioned and so they often create arbitrary, difficult to enforce rules so a game plays out the way they'd like. Often, this happens when a heavy-handed 'theme' is overlaid atop a game or when special focus is paid to what spectators think.
Here's hoping that the game itself is a good game first and thematically consistent second. |
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