Chief Delphi

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)
-   General Forum (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   CNC Mill or Router? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139556)

Lireal 22-11-2015 17:38

CNC Mill or Router?
 
This year, my team found itself with extra money in the budget, and we would like expand our program by getting either a a cnc mill or cnc router. We most likely will not be able to get both of them within the foreseeable future, since this is happening under some strange circumstance.

Our budget for this would be about $4000-5000.

From your experience, is a cnc mill or cnc router more useful to have by itself? What size of each would be sufficient for an average team?

AdamHeard 22-11-2015 17:48

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
What equipment do you currently have? If you don't have a manual mill then get that first.

Does the machine have to be new?

jman4747 22-11-2015 18:05

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
You won't get as much for your money if you go cnc mill. I too would say to get a manual mill first but you need to pay attention too all the tooling you will need to make use of it. You will want someone with experience to help with training for that. I think you may want to go cnc router.

Joe G. 22-11-2015 18:22

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jman4747 (Post 1507264)
You won't get as much for your money if you go cnc mill. I too would say to get a manual mill first but you need to pay attention too all the tooling you will need to make use of it. You will want someone with experience to help with training for that. I think you may want to go cnc router.

Seconded. At your budget, you will be able to get a much more useful CNC Router than CNC Mill.

Lireal 22-11-2015 18:23

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1507261)
What equipment do you currently have? If you don't have a manual mill then get that first.

We currently have a band saw, drill press, chop saw, hand held circular saw, cordless drills, and hand tools.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1507261)
Does the machine have to be new?

Definitely does not have to be new.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jman4747 (Post 1507264)
You won't get as much for your money if you go cnc mill. I too would say to get a manual mill first but you need to pay attention too all the tooling you will need to make use of it. You will want someone with experience to help with training for that. I think you may want to go cnc router.

Ya, if we are going to get a milling machine, the one we have been looking at is manual, but has a digital read out, and we most likely will convert it to cnc later on.

Joe G. 22-11-2015 18:29

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lireal (Post 1507266)
We currently have a band saw, drill press, chop saw, hand held circular saw, cordless drills, and hand tools.

In that case, I'll add to Adam's post and say that splitting the money between a manual mill and lathe may be a good choice. You can almost always find a quality used Kneemill for a couple thousand, with much better deals popping up on occasion (We got a quality bridgeport clone with power feed and DRO for $700). A lathe, likewise, can often be found used, and revolutionizes what a team is capable of building in ways that are hard to fully understand unless you have one. Getting a lathe in 2013 utterly revolutionized my team's build process, much more than the manual mill did the next year.

AdamHeard 22-11-2015 18:50

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Ideally a used Bridgeport or clone with dro then.

Skip CNC for now.

Lireal 22-11-2015 20:05

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
So, I'm still not really clear. Would a cnc router or a manual mill with a dro be more useful in my situation?

Mr_I 22-11-2015 20:20

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Here's something to consider: Does your team have anyone with enough CAD skills to justify the purchase of a CNC-anything? If not currently, is it likely that you can develop those skills?

If your team / school / mentor base isn't likely to support creating and sustaining the CAD skills needed to feed the CNC [mill or router], why not stick with manual mill?

asid61 22-11-2015 20:24

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
I would vote 7x12 lathe and Bridgeport. If you shop around on Craigslist you can get the latter for $1500ish, and a DRO/ tooling for another $1500. Then Spend $1000 on a lathe and tooling and possibly $1000 on a Shapeoko 3 if you really want a CNC.
The Shapeoko is nowhere near the quality of an industrial CNC router, but for FRC use it's fine.

AdamHeard 22-11-2015 20:33

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
For standard sized shaft work, the mill can easily be used as a lathe. Put the part in the spindle and clamp the tool in a vice.

This is assuming you can't have both.


Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1507292)
I would vote 7x12 lathe and Bridgeport. If you shop around on Craigslist you can get the latter for $1500ish, and a DRO/ tooling for another $1500. Then Spend $1000 on a lathe and tooling and possibly $1000 on a Shapeoko 3 if you really want a CNC.
The Shapeoko is nowhere near the quality of an industrial CNC router, but for FRC use it's fine.

Shapeoko is going to be pretty underwhelming for FRC for bulk production compared to a $5-20k router. For a few parts it will work just fine (or if you're okay running it 24/7 all build).

asid61 22-11-2015 21:24

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1507293)
For standard sized shaft work, the mill can easily be used as a mill. Put thi part in the spindle and clamp the tool in a vice.

This is assuming you can't have both.




Shapeoko is going to be pretty underwhelming for FRC.

I do a ton of lathe work on the mill, and it is not fun at all. You can't work on anything longer than a few inches, because R8 collets do not have a through-hole like 5C collets do. Drilling a hole in the end of a shaft requires indicating the shaft. And you can forget about doing tapers or threading. It's definitely a good idea to invest in a cheap lathe instead of just $4000 on a mill and/or router.
I suggested the Shapeoko because for the price and value you can't beat it. The new Shapeoko 3 can cut aluminum out of the box without issues. If the OP is considering one, looking at the videos of it cutting aluminum are enlightening as to its capabilities.

Ryan Dognaux 22-11-2015 21:25

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1507293)
Shapeoko is going to be pretty underwhelming for FRC.

We purchased the 1000mm variant of the X-Carve about a week ago. It claims to have 31" x 31" of cutting space which would be fantastic for many FRC applications.

We've just started assembling it fully knowing we will need to upgrade some items. From the research I've done, it can handle aluminum if you purchase the correct end mills and use something like Inventor HSM to create efficient cutting paths. We're planning on publishing a white paper documenting our assembly process and any modifications needed to make it work well. Cost is around $1500 for the kit to assemble from Inventables - https://www.inventables.com/technologies/x-carve So far the assembly instructions include videos and pictures and has been relatively painless.

AdamHeard 22-11-2015 21:50

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1507294)
I do a ton of lathe work on the mill, and it is not fun at all. You can't work on anything longer than a few inches, because R8 collets do not have a through-hole like 5C collets do. Drilling a hole in the end of a shaft requires indicating the shaft. And you can forget about doing tapers or threading. It's definitely a good idea to invest in a cheap lathe instead of just $4000 on a mill and/or router.
I suggested the Shapeoko because for the price and value you can't beat it. The new Shapeoko 3 can cut aluminum out of the box without issues. If the OP is considering one, looking at the videos of it cutting aluminum are enlightening as to its capabilities.

Assuming you can't have both machines, mill makes a far better lathe than vice versa. 90% of the precision shafts we make are 4" or less. Also everyone should be using thunderhex now ( and if you're making spacers make it out of tubing) so drilling is a non issue.

How often are you threading parts anyway?

The shapeoko will be fine for a few parts, but for meaningful qty you'll need to keep the machine running nonstop.

I really like the shapeokos for the price, and 973 is considering getting one for our pit, but they're more of a supplement than a workhorse compared to what a $5k or more router can do.


We're getting off track anyway. For OP I stand by get the best manual mill for the price you can, then get a lathe as well as possible. Don't get a small mill, get a full size Bridgeport or clone.

RoboChair 22-11-2015 22:18

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
I too agree with Adam here, if you would like help finding good deals on machine please PM me and I can go over details with you.

The issue with a CNC router is that it will not replace an actual mill, but you can do milling with it with effort if you really are heavily inclined to get a CNC first. I would pick a manual mill+lathe and find a laser cutting sponsor(even just paying a shop to laser cut sheet for you is cheap enough to be well worth it) over a CNC router every day of the week.

BTW you can follow G-code on a manual mill by hand via DRO(just try and avoid angles and curves that can be finished by hand later)

I'm almost infamous around central California for buying lots of machines on the super cheap.

EDIT: you are not far from our shop in Davis, I would be more than willing to meet sometime over the next week or two to go over the many options you have before you and the methods 1678 has used to build up our shop in the last few years.

Seth Mallory 22-11-2015 22:31

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Check Craigslist as there some mills and a digital read out not to far from you. Also check the Central Valley.

AdamHeard 22-11-2015 23:13

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboChair (Post 1507300)
I too agree with Adam here, if you would like help finding good deals on machine please PM me and I can go over details with you.

I'm almost infamous around central California for buying lots of machines on the super cheap.

EDIT: you are not far from our shop in Davis, I would be more than willing to meet sometime over the next week or two to go over the many options you have before you and the methods 1678 has used to build up our shop in the last few years.

Take Devin up on his offer and meet local. This is too hard of a thing to communicate nicely over chief with so many variables involved. Talk with him about the knowledge you have, your design style, current equipment, etc and he'll definitely give you good advice.

Can confirm he gets good deals, I hear he bought 3 shopping carts of bowling balls for only $10!

RoboChair 23-11-2015 00:00

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1507318)
Take Devin up on his offer and meet local. This is too hard of a thing to communicate nicely over chief with so many variables involved. Talk with him about the knowledge you have, your design style, current equipment, etc and he'll definitely give you good advice.

Can confirm he gets good deals, I hear he bought 3 shopping carts of bowling balls for only $10!

3 shopping carts of bowling balls for $10.01 each, picking them up Wednesday morning.

Chak 23-11-2015 00:12

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
I keep hearing on CD that for manual mills, a Bridgeport/clone is THE gold standard. So is there something similar for lathes, CNC lathes, CNC mills, and CNC routers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboChair (Post 1507325)
3 shopping carts of bowling balls for $10.01 each, picking them up Wednesday morning.

What's the story here?:]

RoboChair 23-11-2015 00:38

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chak (Post 1507327)
I keep hearing on CD that for manual mills, a Bridgeport/clone is THE gold standard. So is there something similar for lathes, CNC lathes, CNC mills, and CNC routers?


What's the story here?:]

As for Lathes, no unfortunately there is no real "standard" as there is no comparable ubiquity to the Bridgeport model knee mill which has survived nearly 75 YEARS UNCHANGED(the first true "Bridgeport" coming off the line in the 30's). There is something to be said about an industrial product surviving the test of time and the march of progress for 3/4 of a century, they make them still today with only minor changes to their design. Look for, Hardinge, Monarch, Clausing, Mori and their clones or competitors for your lathes. CNC is an even harder one to nail down, just pick a machine or brand with a reputation is my broadest advice.

I watch a lot of auction sites for machines and what not. Bowling alley was going out of business and 46+ bowling balls for $36 after fees is a steal. Was thinking we could get a robot billiards league going or something, I have some other plans for some as well. Who knows, maybe it will be useful on a robot mechanism?

Cory 23-11-2015 02:18

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboChair (Post 1507329)
Look for, Hardinge, Monarch, Clausing, Mori and their clones or competitors for your lathes. CNC is an even harder one to nail down, just pick a machine or brand with a reputation is my broadest advice.

While I generally agree with this sentiment, for the purposes of the OP it seems like there is not enough familiarity with machine tools to make an informed decision on any kind of used machinery purchases. Particularly with lathes, where you can't just (fairly) safely pick any non beat to hell Bridgeport or similar clone.

It will pay to find a way to bring mentors into your team that have experience with machine tools. Perhaps you have sponsors that are machine shops/employ machinists and you could get them to help you evaluate a prospective machine. At a minimum definitely take Devin up on his suggestion to help guide you in the right direction.

Used machinery can be super hit or miss. There's a lot of old lathes out there that were made to a much higher standard of quality than new lathes are (that is not the case with mills), but there's also a lot that are going to be worn out pieces of junk, or require a good amount of tinkering by your team to tune them up and keep them in good working order.

Lireal 23-11-2015 22:00

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Thank you all so much for all of the input that you have given. I spoke with the rest of the team members today and we decided that we are definitely going purchase a manual mill with a dro. We have a sponsor that lets us use their laser cuter, so we were originally leaning in this direction anyways.

We do not really see a need for a lathe at this point. To my knowledge, we have never designed a part on a robot that justified the use of a lathe, and we would rather spend the money to buy another control system.

David Brinza 24-11-2015 03:52

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux (Post 1507295)
We purchased the 1000mm variant of the X-Carve about a week ago. It claims to have 31" x 31" of cutting space which would be fantastic for many FRC applications.

We've just started assembling it fully knowing we will need to upgrade some items. From the research I've done, it can handle aluminum if you purchase the correct end mills and use something like Inventor HSM to create efficient cutting paths. We're planning on publishing a white paper documenting our assembly process and any modifications needed to make it work well. Cost is around $1500 for the kit to assemble from Inventables - https://www.inventables.com/technologies/x-carve So far the assembly instructions include videos and pictures and has been relatively painless.

We're really interested in how this works out. We'd to mill/route lexan and aluminum plate (maybe up to 1/4" thick).

Sperkowsky 24-11-2015 07:31

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
We have a Dayton 2lKP9 we got over 6 years ago and never used. It got wired up in the wrong room. We are getting it moved into our lab soon! Is there anything we should buy to prep for it? Is it a decent mill?

Ryan Dognaux 24-11-2015 11:06

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Brinza (Post 1507567)
We're really interested in how this works out. We'd to mill/route lexan and aluminum plate (maybe up to 1/4" thick).

Lots of people using these to cut 1/4" aluminum plate, plastics, MDF, etc.

Here's a fun post showing a guy refining his process to make anodized paintball gun triggers - https://discuss.inventables.com/t/al...-anodized/9924

asid61 24-11-2015 13:58

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1507576)
We have a Dayton 2lKP9 we got over 6 years ago and never used. It got wired up in the wrong room. We are getting it moved into our lab soon! Is there anything we should buy to prep for it? Is it a decent mill?

It is a pretty bad mill, mainly due to the round column and lack of a raisable knee. I have one in my garage. Every time you switch from milling to drilling, you need to raise the entire head, which throws off all of your zeroes and the like. Plus, to square it with the table you need to use thin shims, which is painful.
If it is still near-new, I would sell it and look for a Bridgeport. If that's not possible, you could definitely work with it- it just takes longer than the Bridgeport.

RoboChair 24-11-2015 14:50

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1507630)
It is a pretty bad mill, mainly due to the round column and lack of a raisable knee. I have one in my garage. Every time you switch from milling to drilling, you need to raise the entire head, which throws off all of your zeroes and the like. Plus, to square it with the table you need to use thin shims, which is painful.
If it is still near-new, I would sell it and look for a Bridgeport. If that's not possible, you could definitely work with it- it just takes longer than the Bridgeport.

I would agree with this over all, you can buy that thing at Walmart... That really says everything about it right there. But some mill is better than no mill every day of the week.

Sperkowsky 24-11-2015 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1507630)
It is a pretty bad mill, mainly due to the round column and lack of a raisable knee. I have one in my garage. Every time you switch from milling to drilling, you need to raise the entire head, which throws off all of your zeroes and the like. Plus, to square it with the table you need to use thin shims, which is painful.
If it is still near-new, I would sell it and look for a Bridgeport. If that's not possible, you could definitely work with it- it just takes longer than the Bridgeport.

Well we can't sell it but, it is better then nothing and at this point it's like getting a mill for free. It's basically brand new just missing a few parts. We also have a electronic feed (I think think that's what it's called) for it.

Since its a piece of crap what should be expect to use it for?

asid61 24-11-2015 19:34

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1507673)
Well we can't sell it but, it is better then nothing and at this point it's like getting a mill for free. It's basically brand new just missing a few parts. We also have a electronic feed (I think think that's what it's called) for it.

Since its a piece of crap what should be expect to use it for?

Well you can still use it for stuff like plates and blocks, like a normal mill, only you should pay extra attention to the squareness of the spindle and you'll have to re-edgefind when you go from drilling to milling.

RoboChair 25-11-2015 03:00

Re: CNC Mill or Router?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1507673)
Well we can't sell it but, it is better then nothing and at this point it's like getting a mill for free. It's basically brand new just missing a few parts. We also have a electronic feed (I think think that's what it's called) for it.

Since its a piece of crap what should be expect to use it for?

I wouldn't necessarily say it's crap, just underwhelming. You can do all the same stuff, but should expect to take slower and shallower cuts while putting more effort into making your parts precise.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:28.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi