X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

So 5511 is looking into getting a CNC router and we're pretty much decided that it will be our next tool. We figure a manual mill can wait as we'd rather make our own gussets and custom parts with a computer rather than by hand.

However, being a second year team comes with a few drawbacks and we don't really have much money to spend at the moment making the X-Carve by inventables a decently solid $1500 option. We'll get the deluxe with the Dewalt 611 and upgraded base package. I've looked and a good feed rate seems to be 0.01" at 50 IPM but it seems like some guys have pushed it farther with PID.

We're just about to pull the trigger but I just wanted to see if anyone has had some experience with the machine or any advice with CNC routers. Our mentor says tooling will run us $500 but considering this isn't a true mill, I'm not entirely sure. I'm aware of the X-Carve forums but I wanted to get the FRC outlook first.

I'm not advocating a xcarve/shapeoko solution. But check out the shapeoko 3 if you have not. It is significantly more rigid.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Tooling for a router should not run you $500. You mainly need clamps and cutters, which won't be more than $200 altogether. However I don't have a whole lot of experience with them, so I can't say what else you would need compared to a standard mill.
You will probably need measuring tools and the like, and that will run you a lot depending on where you buy them.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Team 3604 recently purchased an X-Carve with the upgrades you mentioned. PM your email address and we'd be happy to share our experiences (assembled and are getting ready to perform our first projects).

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

1678 is looking at their router as one option for a CNC small enough to bring in our Pit Boxes, but as with ANY machining tool bigger=BETTER. The price scale on machine tools is almost comical, twice the money can easily get you 3-4 times the machine.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Oh come on, now you're ripping off Super Pit features before we even implement them ;)

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Take it as a complement of extreme competence! But will yours have a mini fridge?

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

It's had a mini fridge since 2014 ;)

We love your roadcases though, super smart. Keep making that magic happen.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

If only the build volume wasn't like 50% smaller on the shapeoko.

I've been looking into an X-Carve for my team as well. Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any other large format (30"x30" or larger) CNC routers in the sub-$2000 range?

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

You can look at OpenRail from OpenBuilds. It is based on aluminum extrusions like 80/20 so it can be sized as needed.

Be very picky of the eBay routers. Ones with linear recirculating ball rails on hardened steel tracks are typically far superior to the other options available.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Would you mind sharing your experiences in this thread?

I'm sure everyone would like to read a first-hand account.

- Sunny G.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

+1 request to share this information right here in this thread! I'd love to hear more details about your experience.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

We have a ZenbotCNC 24"x48" router. Our initial investment was just a little over $2500. It's been pretty good for us so far but we really haven't stressed tested it too much.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

I purchased a fully loaded X-Carve a few months ago and had a chance to play with it quite a bit. The assembly instructions are great - everything is really easy to put together. The only time I deviated from the assembly instructions is when installing the belting, I'm using a different method to keep the belt in place than they recommended. I find that the recommendation they gave causes a lot of slip in the belt, especially when 'carving'.

The biggest issue I have encountered with my X-Carve is getting my CAD files to read correctly in Inventable's Easel software. In order to import your files, you need to have them in SVG format. Solidworks does not directly export to SVG, so the best way I have found to get them to be readable is by exporting files as DXF in solidworks, importing them into Inkscape and exporting them as SVG. At the point when I upload it to Easel, I usually run into multiple issues and I think most of it has to do with curves in the parts. Easel tells me that I need an (infinitely) smaller bit to run my parts, when in reality I do not. I've also attempted to import a 32t sprocket into Easel and every time I do the webpage crashes (in Chrome) I've done this on multiple computers as well. I've had a lot of problems using Easel and at this point I'm considering getting a beefier control board and running HSMWorks out of Solidworks.

The quality of the cuts the machine makes are decent, I'm sure if I played around with calibrations I could get it running as well as any top-line CNC router. I'll see if I can get some pictures of cuts I've made so far.

My Machine Specs:
1000mmx1000mm
ACME Lead Screw
NEMA 23 Stepper Motors
300W 24VDC Spindle Kit
Arduino/gShield Motion Controller Kit
Limit Switch Kit

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Fantastic, thanks for sharing, this is the type of information I was looking for. Did you know that xcarve runs GRBL firmware? This means you can import into files into a software known as chilipepper. It looks like you can import dxf and gcode files. Other software exists to convert solid works parts into gcode but dxf can work just fine. Hopefully this helps and you could share the result.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Bookmarked. I may have an opportunity to go run this tonight, I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks!

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Two questions:

1. Could you explain more about how you modified the belt system? Possibly include pictures?
2. In your opinion could an X-Carve be used to build "mission-critical" parts for FRC robots?
   I'm considering getting one of these to speed up fabrication of our drive system, but the drive modules are expensive to make (or rather, to have to make more than once if they get screwed up) and require somewhat high tolerances (but within what the X-Carve advertises to have).
   Currently we make these parts on an (older) large Bridgeport 2-axis CNC mill, but between the setup, pre-cutting, and programming it takes an operator about 3 hours a day for the better part of a week to complete.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Having a 3 axis CNC knee mill in our shop as well as a metal router an order of magnitude more rigid/powerful than the X-carve I would say there is no way it will compete with the knee mill other than fixturing seems easier on a router (assuming you're willing to screw down material into the mdf).

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Fixturing is the main issue honestly, that and programming. Currently we have to cut our material to size on a bandsaw, then clean up the edges on the mill, then use 2 clamps + supports to position the material. After we're done with that we have to manually program each step, and babysit it the entire time it runs (as each new step requires intervention). I would like to be able to just attach a sheet of material directly to a workspace, import the cut path from the CAD model, and just let it run.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Why can't you do that process on the bridgeport?

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

As far as mounting it is concerned, the Bridgeport has a work area of like 8" x 40", meaning the parts have to be pre-cut, have the edges cleaned up, and then milled individually (very time consuming). Also being a 2-axis CNC means that an operator has to control the Z-axis manually, which takes even more time and can lead to human error.
As for programming, the Bridgeport is like 30 years old (uses floppy disks). While it does run on G-Code, modern G-Code formatting appears to be incompatible with it. Consequently all the programming is done using the interface on the machine.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Can you elaborate on what it is you're cutting? You say the edges need to be cleaned up. I assume that means that you're cutting all four sides on a bandsaw, out of a larger sheet? If this is for a gearbox plate, have you considered starting with bar stock that is slightly larger than one of the dimensions, so that you only make one cut and are clamping on stock edges? Then you have no need to clean the edges up.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Our drive system is a custom polycarbonate geardrive, so basically each of the polycarbonate panels it need to be the tolerance of a gearbox, but much larger.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Would it be possible to just cut it out of a solid sheet of polycarb, instead of cutting to size on he mill?

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

So here's a question for someone with more experience than me. What would the challenges be to taking an x-carve or similar machine and mounting it vertically such that the axis of the router is horizontal? This would allow a team to have a CNC machine in the pit using much less space.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Should be fine assuming it is rigidly mounted to a wall or stand to help prevent twist in the table and making sure that the chips won't pile up on something important. I would NOT do this with a belt driven gantry. Mounting stuff to it might be a bit annoying however.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

From what you are describing here it sounds like you have an EZ-TRAK? If so you can use HSMxpress to generate G-code for it after tweaking some parameters, that's what we do anyway. Alternatively you can take the time to modify a post processor's code so that it uses the correct syntax that the Bridgeport will understand(or edit the posted code manually if you are feeling masochistic).

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

For those of you thinking of putting a CNC router in your pit area, all I can say is I hope we are not your neighbors.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Seconded - look at HSMXpress output options. I just generated a file for Anilam conversational control which uses ARC, LINE, RAPID, etc. instead of G00/G01/G02/etc.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

We'll post our experience here once we start some cuts (we're off until after Thanksgiving). Agree with the earlier post that assembly wasn't too bad - the assembly actually has been a great project/learning experience for the team. Thought I would share why we decided to go with the X-Carve vs. the Shapeoko 3 - the cut size the X-Carve could do in the 1000mm kit.

Goon Squad's Machine Specs:
1000mmx1000mm
ACME Lead Screw
NEMA 23 Stepper Motors
Dewalt 611 Router & Mount
Arduino/gShield Motion Controller Kit
Limit Switch Kit
Made our own wasteboard

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Not sure off the top of my head exactly what it is, I googled the EZ-TRAK and the layout is very similar but the interface is different than anything I could see in image search. I'll see if I can dig up a picture I took of it a while back (won't be back in the shop till next week to look).

I think one of our mentors manually edited some generated G-Code to make it work one time a while back, but I think he decided it was too impractical to do on a regular basis as he never tried it again. Unfortunately HSMxpress doesn't help us much as we CAD in Inventor, though I have been meaning to try out the CAM tools in Fusion 360, which appear to be similar.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

I believe this is the Inventor flavor of HSMxpress. HSMxpress is made by Autodesk so it only makes sense that there would be a version for Inventor.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

It got bought out by autodesk, it was initially a solidworks only plug in. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

That's correct.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Inventor HSM, HSMXpress, and Fusion 360 are pretty much identical. They are all based on the Autodesk HSM kernel. You can select custom output options in "Post Process" > "Post Configuration" to output EZ-Trak formatted code and file format (.pgm). Hopefully you get more use out of the machine now!

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Yup, came across this last night but I couldn't find a free student version until just now (it doesn't show up on the browse list on the Autodesk Student page so I had to do some digging). It appears to be a much nicer solution than Fusion 360.

Here's the link if anyone's interested:
http://www.autodesk.com/education/fr...ventor-hsm-pro

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

4329 just purchased an X-Carve a few weeks ago and is in the process of assembling it. We also bought the 1000 mm variant and basically went with the 'provide us everything' option which runs around $1500. While we hope to have this supplement our build processes, we're also hoping to use it as a way to get more kids excited about learning to design in CAD similar to what 3D printing has done for us.

There is a significant amount of information on the Inventables forums on making the 1000 mm machine more rigid for each axis. For the X-Axis, the main issue comes from each maker rail extrusion bar being supported by only 2 screws on each plate. With no supports in-between the two rails, this can allow for flexing especially when cutting harder materials.

A pretty quick and easy solution is to just put some kind of material between the two rails, detailed in this thread: https://discuss.inventables.com/t/wi...kerslides/9448

We're trying the solution of 3D printing support ribs and placing them throughout the two rails - http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:503437

Basically any question you have has probably been answered on the Inventables forums, I'd highly suggest spending an hour just researching stuff.

We plan to post a short white paper detailing our experiences with this machine and hope to have it ready in December.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

1. Please see pictures at this link. Essentially I wrapped the belt around in a slightly different way so the teeth would be forced into each other.
2. Yes, with modifications done to increase accuracy. Out of the box, carving aluminum I had a part that came out looking like this. I think the improvements that Ryan posted above for the machine would fix the quality issues I'm seeing in this cut. The hole is about 1" in diameter, originally it was supposed to be larger but I ran into scaling issues with Easel.

*Edit* It looks like Iventables has updated their belting instructions to run the same way.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

I'm the mentor for an FTC team. As such, I've been looking over options in case the team ever moves upwards (and I've been following the CNC's for awhile). I really like the Openbuilds OX platform as it seems to match the needs for a robust, extendable (and precise) frame system with reasonable cost. I believe there are a few folks that will supply the parts as a kit. See the discussion area for more info and the first few posts have the current kit suppliers
http://www.openbuilds.com/builds/ope...c-machine.341/
One supplier in the USA (http://www.smw3d.com/ox-diy-cnc-kit/)

Like all Openbuilds, there is a great community effort. In addition to the discussion thread, there is a G+ group
https://plus.google.com/communities/...28951643236736

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

A mentor on the team I used to mentor bought one this past summer. He has been happy with it given its limitations.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Care to expand on the limitations? Always good to see the pros and cons, especially from someone with experience (even second hand).

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Size, rigidity, depth of cut, chip size, etc. You can't hog on a small, lightweight router, so you are limited to taking shallow cuts with low feed-per-tooth. I'm not advocating these solutions are poor, just understand the speed and accuracy limitations of these machines will be limited to the inherent design. What I saw looked pretty good. The dimensional tolerance was good enough for FRC and the machine was portable, which helps out his team's limited shop access.

You get a huge upgrade when you go to a heavy, solid machine that can make very fast rapids and cuts. You can run appropriate/aggressive feedrates and a larger depth of cut per pass resulting in greater material removal rates and faster cycle times.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Ok, but what you're referring to are limitations for ALL the CNC's in the "budget" category, wouldn't you say? How would you compare the OX vs the X-carve for example? I think that's what we're interested in. Or, are you aware of a budget CNC that doesn't have these limitation and can take deeper passes for faster results?

I think perhaps the question on many of our minds is: What CNC (assembled/kit) for less than ($1000, $1500, $2000, etc) delivered is the "best", with cost including any highly recommended options. We all operate under a budget so it always needs to be total cost.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

I'm putting together a "3040 CNC" from parts. All in all it costs about the same as an XCarve and has proper linear bearings and ball screws. Aluminium milling capability is far better than a XCarve or an OX IMO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmIaObhW0Xg

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

I would not recommend that specific type of linear guide (at least it appears to be a floating shaft press-fit on both ends like this one, if it is the fully-supported type, disregard this comment) since a friend had a CNC router based on them. They are not supported across the travel and they vibrate during any movement. This would definitely cause surface finish issues and inaccuracy. His was a 2' x 4' router, however. On the smaller 3040, this may be a negligible deflection. I would recommend linear recirculating ball bearings (HiWin/THK style) on hardened steel guides for any extrusion based system as they will make the structure much more rigid.


As I have no direct experience with both, I can only go off of what others have posted. Reviews are going to be good and bad for both. My personal opinion is to buy whichever one you can afford and get into CNC routing with. It will add so many capabilities to the team and will help inspire students and mentors to be creative with their designs. You can always build parts for a larger or better router from the smaller router.

Do you have any capability to make accurate parts yourself (milling machine)? A router is a fairly straightforward build and you can get a lot of machine for $1000 if you design the components yourself.

If I was to choose buying one I would probably consider the OpenBuilds over the X-Carve. The next step up I would consider the CNCRouterParts kit.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Hate resurrect a dead topic, but I thought this would be a relevant update...

My team purchased an X-Carve an during their Black Friday sale, and finished assembly and initial testing in late December. We've recently been looking into putting it to use for manufacturing polycarbonate components on our robot (of which there are many). One of the kids on the team had a GoPro, so we set it up to take a timelapse of a run of a pair of test pieces we designed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiaydzvYsrM

This was the 3rd attempt on this particular piece (you can see there are some other holes and markings on the sheet from earlier failed tests), which appears to, for the most part, have been a success. We found out the hard way on the earlier runs that it would appear when adjusting the stepper motor voltage with the potentiometers on the controller, that you can, apparently, turn the settings up too high and actually reduce the power of the motors, leading to unwanted results. The only issue we had on this run was that the larger pocketed holes were a little small (and inconsistently so around the radius of the hole, varying between 0.03 to 0.01 too small), but everything appeared to have been centered in the correct positions.

The test part was designed to simulate a portion of our drive system this year, to see if the X-Carve would be accurate enough to work with the tolerances required to build it. It could be better, but we're looking into the possibility of making the initial cuts using the X-Carve and then doing a finishing cut of the pockets on our 2.5 axis CNC, potentially saving several days worth of work in the process.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Nice video. We are using an X-Carve at our makerspace, that one of our members built. (We're cutting 300 catapult kits for a school). He 3-D printed a collar for around the bit that a vacuum hose can attach to. This way it vacuums as it cuts. I'll be at the space tonight, and snag a photo for you.

Brian

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Look into calibrating the x y and z axis on the inventables forum. The ring around the spindle is probably bad. It's containing the cuttings. Re-cuting material in the tool path is bad especially if you try AL.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

I found a picture on our Facebook page. The bottom of the collar has brush bristles, so the length bristles determines you're max Z distance. The collar is attached via magnets, so it's easily removed when not needed. He suspends the vacuum hose with a string to keep it out of the way.

Brian

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

Same here, 4918 just got ours running, so far it works like a dream for cutting wood. Prototyping has been so much easier. We plan to eventually use a Universal Gcode Sender with some rigidity mods to cut aluminium.

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

I saw a lot of dust collectors like that but I didn't care much for them because I was concerned the bristles could get caught or cause additional resistance making the motors loose track of where they were (plus they all required additional assembly steps and/or materials).

The collector I came up with is a bit more passive, but still works fairly well at keeping material out of the tracks.

The ring was my attempt at a dust collector, it did work fairly well but got a bit clogged on occasion. I'm looking into expanding the holes to help alleviate this issue. I'm pretty sure we followed the calibration instructions correctly, and every instruction I've seen for adjusting the power of the Y axis has consisted of "Turn the dial clockwise".

Re: X-Carve as a budget CNC?
 

The X carve with a high quality spindle or high quality router, is a fine machine for FRC. I have one that has been lightly modified and have made a lot of parts for FRC bots and other projects. It is not super accurate, but holds dimensions withing +/- 0.005" with no problems in aluminum.

I have made lots of parts with mine for clients. it is not perfect but is a great value.