Intake wheel motors
 

What kind of motors and gearboxes would people recommend for jobs like intake wheels. We have many smaller motors like the window and fisher price motors and full size cims but nothing in between. What kind of motors and gearboxes would be a good buy for most medium power operations like intake wheels. Thanks for any assistance that you provide.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

VersaPlanetary + BAG or MiniCIM gives a lot of flexibility in speed/ torque and mounting.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

For most teams I'd recommend using the versaplanetaries. Reasoning:

1. Able to quickly swap ratios from 3:1 to whatever. (Use load rating guide for your application )
2. Available with multiple output shafts.
3. Direct drive wheels
4. Easy to integrate with pulleys and sprockets.
5. Most flexible option imo out of any cots gearbox available.
6. This is what citrus does :cool:

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Any 550 or 775 motor and versa planetary will work fairly well, however we've been switching over to bag motors for intakes because of their increased thermal mass that helps increase the margin for error when stalled.

I would consider a minicim overkill for an intake, especially considering the weight of the motor.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

With the Banebot motors now illegal, I would recommend the AM 9015 or the VP BAG motors as the motors of choice for an intake.

Planetary gearboxes are great for this application, either the VP Versaplanetary or the Banebots P60. I've used both with great success.

If you do have the ability to make a custom gearbox, you do have the opportunity to save a bit of weight and efficiency with a small 3:1 or 4:1 spur reduction. Planetaries are great for getting a big reduction in a small space, but intakes are generally a high speed application. A great way to do this is to use 32DP pinion gears available from AM or WCP directly on the motor and using some of the aluminum gears that are targeted towards FTC: https://www.servocity.com/html/32_pi...l#.VmegwbgrJD8, and bolting them directly to the wheel.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

That's how we roll. :cool:

Versa Planetary and a hex broach, far you will roll.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

One of the mistakes teams commonly make is under powering intakes. If you've got an intake or conveyor belt, you want to put as much power on it as you can get away with.

Yes, the Mini CIM might be overkill -- but can you put a "price" on having a "Touch-It, Own-It" intake?

When I designed my first ever intake+conveyor mechanism in 2009, I asked one of my wiser friends for advice. He just told me: "The only trick as far as I can tell, is to throw power at it." I've never looked back...

I also agree that using a modular planetary gearbox is a good idea for this application. I can't count the number of times I've screwed up a gear ratio ("wow... this seems really slow!" or "hmmm... is it supposed to stall this easily?") and been saved by adjusting the planetary used in the design. This versatility will allow you to swap in different ratios (or motors) to tweak your design.

Your Mileage May Vary,
John

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Another reason for over powering mechanisms is that the smaller motors (BAG,9015) will require more reduction than the larger motors(CIM,Mini-CIM) due to a higher free speed. This year instead of using a small motor with a VP on our intakes we could get the same output speed at the same weight by using a Mini-CIM with a single reduction. Giving us more power with less cost, weight and complexity.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Anyone have any pictures of Mini-CIM intakes?

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

254 in 2013. though they started changing motors around. i forgot what they settled on for champs.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

They aren't great photos but:
Here is our intake without wheels.
And a side view with wheels
Overhead

1114's intakes also use CIMs

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

I can't agree more; that approach definitely paid off for us in 2010. Our pincher intake that year was powered by a full-size CIM with a heavily torqued friction clutch (to avoid completely stalling the motor). There was sufficient current draw that we used current measurement to determine whether or not we had the ball--it consumed over 30A when it had the ball! It was hard on our batteries, but it was worth it; there were several times we simply yanked the ball out of other robot's intakes, even on Einstein (definitely "touch-it, own-it"!).

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Please note that fisher price motors have been illegal for a few years now... I would of recommend removing them from the shop so they don't accidentally end up on your robot!

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Another tip for intake wheels when it comes to selecting the right gear ratio and motors: Your "intake velocity" aka the linear speed of your intake wheels should be greater than the max speed of your drivetrain. This makes it easier for you to intake a game piece while driving at it full speed.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

The MiniCIM/CIM for Versaplanetary seems like a great way to go to get more power - except for a major factor (IMO). How do we accurately and cleanly cut the CIM/MiniCIM output shaft down to 3/8"? We once made a prototype with a MiniCIM/Versaplanetary, but wound up using standoffs from the adapter because the kids weren't able to figure it out at the time.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Our 2014 robot had a mini-cim intake (it's hiding under the duct tape).

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Not exactly useful for every team because it requires a lathe but... we had an interesting solution.

We clamped down our CIM motor inside the lathe and then, instead of turning the lathe itself, we powered the motor directly from a battery. Lathes are not designed to be used on a shaft that's spinning quite that fast so it generated a lot of heat (make sure to oil it up). In the end it worked perfectly with the small caveat that the CIM shaft had burn marks on it.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

We wrap the CIM/MiniCIM in pool noodles then clamp it in our table vise. We use visegrips on the end of the shaft that is going to be cut off, then just hack saw through the shaft. We sand down the end to clean up any sharp edges after we are done.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

We clamped the motor in a vise. Held the shaft with vice grips and cut off the shaft with a dremel. Cut as straight as possible. My student took his time but really just eyeballed it. He then jsut filed the edges to remove any burrs. Didn't have any issues with it last year.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

You can run the versa planetary without modifying the CIM output shaft. I talked with Aren at vexpro, and the original intent for the CIM adapter was to leave the shaft unmodified. I do not remember the reason for them suggesting the modified shaft for normal usage, but we ran mostly unmodified CIM shafts with the adapters as shown below.

You have to leave all the stages in the gearbox for shaft clearance. We did have to shave off the end of the output shaft around .010"-.020" with a file to remove a minor interference.

We had zero issues with the setup for the 2015 season.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

We've done this also, +1 for the recommendation because it works and it's fast.

Our 2014 Mini-CIM+VP intake can be seen in this picture; it is a straightforward rip-off of Team JVN's Build Blitz design.

Touch-it-own-it.:cool:

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

We found that that can work but it comes with some caveats.
1. Some CIM motors have the keyseat cut at the back of the output shaft, this makes it near impossible to have any amount of key in the input coupler to transfer toque unless you cut the shaft down some.

2. It adds a lot of length to the whole assembly.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

As a huge fan of fast intakes on a team with a reputation for building fast intakes...

I've heard this rule of thumb parroted around a lot, but (in my experience) this can lead to teams building drastically undergeared intakes that stall at the first sign of trouble.

There is more that goes into a roller intake than speed, and high speed can bring with it some drawbacks. For most game objects that FIRST has given us, an effective intake requires carefully crafted geometry, materials selection, and deformation characteristics to work well. You may find that your mechanism is loaded in such a way during intaking that in order to prevent a stall when loaded AND run at a greater tip velocity than your maximum drive speed when unloaded would require a ludicrous amount of power. Or, you may find that a high tip velocity breaks static friction between the roller and game object when the robot isn't at full speed (i.e. most of the time).

It's really more of an impedance matching problem than a raw speed maximization problem (though adding more POWER to the equation usually helps). A lot of these tradeoffs are non-obvious and difficult to estimate from first principles, but can be the difference between a ridiculously effective and totally ineffective intake. Every team guesses wrong on total intake power and speed/torque from time to time. Unless you have the ability to quickly remake a custom transmission in-house, you really can't beat the VersaPlanetary for being able to quickly change your mind and adjust any or all of the power parameters of your mechanism.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

When I think about fast robot intakes, nothing comes to mind more then FRC95's robot from 2002.

That being said, the RS775-18V will be greatly missed in the future for its size to power ratio. I'll all for throwing as much power as you can at an intake within the confines of weight and design. Looks like Mini-CIMs, BAGs, and 9015s for the future.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

You are correct. I forgot that we did have to sort through our CIM motors to find suitable keyseat flavors.

There were two reasons we didn't want to cut the shaft down.
1. To use the CIM motors for other applications later that required a normal output shaft.
2. With such a long assembly, we had a slightly improved side mounting with the input stage tapped holes kept in the assembly.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Here is a video of their intake in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL6VtO5VSd8

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions. This has been very helpful.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

95 in 2002 looks amazing. But so does this.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Looked at the date of this post... went "Oh, that was BEFORE VEX announced their new products". I'm now ducking and covering from the hail of RS775-18s flying my way as they're replaced by the VEX counterpart...

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

At this point, seems like the best choices are between the BAG, the mini-CIM, or the 775Pro.

The BAG is great if you want a lighter motor, don't need a ton of power, but your intake might stall. It's also better if you're trying to watch your current draw as it draws less current than the mini-CIM or 775.

The 775 has a lot more power at a similar weight, so if you can spare the current and don't think the intake will ever stall, it's a great choice.

If you need both power and stall protection, and don't mind the weight penalty, than a mini-CIM is the way to go.

In any case, in this modern era of FRC there is simply no better choice than a VersaPlanetary for gearing an intake. The weight penalty is worth it in exchange for the extreme flexibility in gearing options. Your intake should definitely run through a VP, unless you're very sure of the gear ratio and you need every ounce of weight you can get.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

I concur, but will add that some intakes (depending many factors) will work well with an AM 9015 reduced through a BB P60. This combination saves some space and weight relative to the VersaPlanetary, which might be a good trade against the VP's benefits.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Wow! Pretty amazing intake.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

well, i learned it in a hard way but i can say that using andymark motors with gearboxes (like pg71) are a bit ineficient, in our aerial assist year we used pg71's in intake and it takes forever for it to get the ball totally. Last year we used window motors in our intake mechanism, it was better than pg71's but still it was too slow. However, this year, there was a special offseason event in Turkey with game of 2006, aim high and we built another robot for that offseason. In that robot we decided to use mini CIM motor connected to a CIMple box connected to wheels with chains and i can say that it almost worked perfectly. Still, bag motors with plenataries will probably be better but we dont have that much oppurtunutiy and parts in Turkey so we have never been able to test that.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

With PG71s, it's hard to get the wheel big enough for a decent tip speed. PG27s are nearly three times as fast. We used a PG-27 with a 6" wheel for our Aerial Assist pickup. For our tennis ball pickup in offseason, we used BAG motors and 5:1 reduction - plenty fast even with a 4" wheel; almost too fast for our purposes (we had a few balls jam inside until we made some adjustments).

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Wheels are good, but using tubes connected to motors are considerable too. With right measurements, you get a larger connection with ball and it makes it easier to take the ball.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

What size, shape, orientation, and material tubes are you talking about? How do you mount them to the motors?

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JScN8XKEF-s

here is my old team's offseason robot. They used cylinders connected to mini cim and cimple box via chain. and I remember robots using cylinders in 2014 game such as cheesy poofs :D

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

??????????? The only way I could make sense of your earlier post was if you were using "tubes" that were bigger and softer than a 6" wheel; what you were talking about was neither; smaller than most wheels and not apparently grippier. You certainly wouldn't want to run those off of a PG71, or even a PG27.

Continuing with the rollers yes, we did horizontal rollers with belts on our 2012 Rebound Rumble robot. In that case, we were using the belt run as our "storage area" for up to (IIRC) four balls. As such, we wanted the rollers to run slowly. The balls were soft enough that we could drive over them even without the rollers turning. Once they were trapped between the rollers and a backing sheet of plastic, we turned on the rollers to do the pickup. We powered those rollers with a window motor; It took about two or three seconds for a ball to make it from the floor all the way up to the trigger mechanism. But I didn't think of those as intakes so much as pickups; perhaps too subtle a distinction.

Re: Intake wheel motors
 

I don't know what material they put on their tubes, but most teams that use them put Polyurethane from McMaster Carr on them. (Or super-soft surgical tubing in the case of aerial assist balls).