Chief Delphi - 610's Preseason Drive

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Re: 610's Preseason Drive

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian_R (Post 1514164)

The long fasteners allow the whole tube to be preloaded compressively. This should give some additional rigidity and resistance to bending.

No, that's not really what's going on. In fact, loading the ladder bar in compression will make it more sensitive to perpendicular loads! Here's a better explanation:

Quote:

The compression forces, commonly called preload, determine to a degree how stiff the joint is because immense friction is created at the part interface thanks to those compression forces. The basic idea is that the preload force must be overcome before the structure will even begin thinking of maybe shifting, just a tiny bit. Hence, properly designed machine structures are predictably stiff in their operating regimes.

Re: 610's Preseason Drive

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure (Post 1514167)

No, that's not really what's going on.

+1 for video use.
+1 for column buckling formulas

Re: 610's Preseason Drive

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure (Post 1514167)

No, that's not really what's going on. In fact, loading the ladder bar in compression will make it more sensitive to perpendicular loads! Here's a better explanation:

Thanks, the youtube link was helpful.

I hadn't considered buckling, so I took a stab at the numbers. I estimate the buckling load thusly (ignoring the pocketing of the tube because I'm not able to do it with FEA at this time):

Fixed-fixed: n=4
I=0.034 in^4 (2x1x1/16)
E=1E7 psi (aluminum)
L=24 in

F=23000 lbs

Let's err on the side of maximizing preload. Even a very fancy grade 8 1/4-20 bolt is listed as having a clamping force of 2860lbs, so it's about an order of magnitude away from buckling under the preload alone.

Granted, this doesn't say much about sensitivity to side loads. It's been a few years since I've broken out the calculations for side loads to trigger buckling, so I'd be very interested if you can estimate that under these simplified parameters.

I'll happily concede buckling is a concern with a slender, compressively loaded member, but I don't think 610's preseason chassis is near that state yet. Again, this ignores the pocketing, which'll of course weaken things, but is a separate design choice.

For preload to reduce bending:

It seems sensible to me that preloading the tube axially, to ensure a compressive stress state, prevents a tensile component and thus reduces the risk of a bending failure. The shear stress increases, but again, I think it's within what the aluminum can handle. As it's statically indeterminate, I'm not sure how to crunch the numbers without setting up a simulation.

Finally, to look a bit further into the source you provided (Step 10):

Quote:

The Effects of Preload on Spacers

We aim to exact a slightly different end to using preload on bolted spacers. It's not so much the tensile loading that is beneficial so much as the ability to change the type of loading on the spacer's walls from bending to tension and compression. The total increase in rigidity comes from two main sources:

1. The outside of the sleeve is put into compression. A bending load will tend to compress one side more while relieving the other side. If there was no existing compressive stress, then the material will deform more before the same levels of stress occur within it. The stronger the material, the more compressive stress can be added (the stronger the preload). This works until the bending causes the compressed side to rupture (buckle outwards), and the other side to irreversibly stretch (plastic deformation).

Re: 610's Preseason Drive

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian_R (Post 1514187)

For preload to reduce bending: It seems sensible to me that preloading the tube axially, to ensure a compressive stress state, prevents a tensile component and thus reduces the risk of a bending failure.

This explanation is a good one. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian_R (Post 1514187)

Thanks, the youtube link was helpful.

Yeah, sorry.

Wow, you guys are thinking about this a lot more than we did :) In our previous designs going back to 2010, roll pins are used in the corners of the tube to align them, and everything is held together with threaded rod. The reason then was it saved having to machine end blocks for the tubes. Now it's easier for us to make end blocks, and yet we still like the threaded rod. The frame joint feels a lot stiffer when you can preload it. Is this a significant difference? Probably not.

Re: 610's Preseason Drive

It looks like with 2.5" wide tube you can fit 2 sprockets and one of the 0.875" colsons inside of the tube. Would you guys consider doing something like this?

CAD