GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

We are in the process of building a high school robotics lab(rookie team 5920). We are looking at buying a lathe, mill, band saw and some other tools for the lab. My question to the FIRST community are there any teams using Grizzly products and how do you like them? The price is of some importance.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

My team has some grizzly tools and I have used many in the past. They are for sure the budget brand of industrial equipment.

Here are a couple of things to think about when buying any tool.

* there is no brand of tool where every tool is great. You need to look at each tool independently based on your needs and use case.

*The only thing that a brand will tell you is about the support for the products that you will receive.

*If you are not experienced or an expert in using the tools you are considering (specifically for mills, lathes, etc) you need to consult with someone who knows more than you do. Chiefdelphi is a good place for this, but a local resource might be better.

*Used equipment is both a blessing and curse - you can find some very high quality good deals on older used equipment. You also won't get much (or any) of a guarantee with any of it so if it does break you are probably on your own to figure it out (another reason to find a local expert)

*tooling can cost as much or more than the machine - get good tooling, it makes a huge difference. There are some ways to get cheap tooling, like calling machine shops and asking for donations or any re-grinds they are going to get rid of.

* Since you mentioned rookie team, I recommend you get through this season before you make any decisions. The lead time to get equipment up and running is not insignificant and you have a big challenge coming up in a week. It is not the time to try and setup and learn a new tool.


Good luck! We are all here to help, and I am sure some others will chime in with their opinions also.


Greg

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

In addition to what Greg said, Grizzly doesn't have great support if you break one of their tools. That said, you will probably have the same issue with many used machines.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

We have two grizzly bandsaws, one vertical and one horizontal. We're happy enough with them, but as the previous poster mentioned, the particular model is important. Which ones are you looking at and what is your budget?
Are you speaking from a first-hand experience trying to get support from them? I've read many accounts on the contrary.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

Wow. A rookie team already considering both a lathe and a mill. We're entering year five, and aren't seriously considering either. I'm not familiar with Grizzly, but as far as bandsaws and drill presses are considered, I can say don't bother with the cheap ones. I expect that this is even more true for lathes and mills.

To borrow a phrase from my days at the stable, FRC tools are "rode hard and put up wet". Within a year in the hands of high schoolers, our Ryobi tabletop band saw was significantly less functional (not to mention precise) than our DeWalt "portaband", and our Ryobi tabletop drill press (same model as I have at the house and do reasonably nice things with) wasn't worthy to serve aboard the Millennium Falcon. Both are in the junk yard. I don't know if there is a sweet spot or where it is, but low end power tools are definitely not it.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

Reminds me of my other pastime, which is volunteering with a local summer camp. Similar in many ways. People tend to buy or donate cheap things for camp because, well, we're a charity and have little money. But I've quickly realized that cheap stuff just doesn't hold up. I coined a word for it -- stuff gets "campified". I donated a Canadian Tire drill press (same factory as Ryobi) to camp once that had been lightly used in my own garage. I don't think it even lasted the summer, now the chuck wobbles and falls off. I replaced it with a brand new one, and someone managed to rip off the power cord.

2706 is in its rookie year as a new community based team (e.g. no high school shop to call home). We're going to get by with a chop saw, a drill press and hand tools. We'll be working out of a storage cage at a local sports complex, next to a cage full of volleyballs. I'd love for us to have a lathe or mill eventually, if we could only figure out where to put it!

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

The 4 major tools the team is look at.
G9742 Band saw
G0621x Vertical band saw
G4000 Lathe
G0759 Mill
We have been give a large grant to change a home economics room to a robotics lab. The grant will need to provide for a complete redesign. That being said we could spend $10-$15,000 on needed equipment. We will be taking out 3 of the 4 stoves in the room so 220 volts is available. We hope to complete the project for the beginning of the 2016 school year.
We are a high school of 84 students in eastern Washington state. We are a FFA team well supported by the high school administration and teachers. Grizzly has a location in Washington state and we like supporting local. We would like them to become a supporter of FIRST.
We also understand our rookie season starts 1 week from today. We have been installing a supply of Vex pro build materials. So our most pressing need would be the band saw.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

The Seig-style mills and lathes are in wide use and are very popular with hobbyists. They are capable of holding good tolerances.
As a rookie team I would want a drill press, bandsaw, sander, and the Vexpro gussets. But once the year is up having a mill and lathe available is extremely handy, and opens up whole new worlds of parts.
We have a couple cheap drill presses (Craftsman), and I have to say they're not bad. The runout on the mini one that's been around several years is definitely under 1/64" (haven't measured it, haven't needed to). As long as new students are supervised while running it and don't do anything too demanding (large holesaws in steel?) I think even a cheap drill press can work for a while.
That being said I agree that bandsaws are not good to get cheap. We have not had luck with cheap bandsaws at all. Whenever possible I try to just use the massive portamatic bandsaw we have in the woodshop.

EDIT: I would recommend against the G4000 however. It's $1000 and I think you'll very rarely make use of the full 9x19 size. Something like a 7x12 or 7x16 would be good to save money for a 5c collet chuck and collets to hold hex stock accurately. The mill looks good (yay DROs!) but with a week to go until build begins it might be prudent to wait on buying until the end of build, when you can learn to use it properly.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

I will have to agree with everything that Greg Needel posted. Bargain-brand tools are hard to gauge.

I would like to ask these questions:
Is there a reason that you are purchasing the equipment now?
Is the school putting in the lab and are they providing the funds?
Is there a sponsor that is aiding in these purchases?
Can you get by at least one season before purchasing?
Does your team already have the hand tools necessary for a FRC season?

The reason that I ask all of these questions is that your team is about to go on a ride with a VERY STEEP learning curve. Purchasing equipment 'just to have it' is not a good reason to purchase. Spend the time to figure out what you need - not what you want.

If your school is putting up all the money and it needs to be done this fiscal year - be sure to spend the money wisely. A good set of hand tools is the first order of business. And if it is to be stored in a school setting, be certain you have ways to lock up these items - they seem to go 'missing' in the off-season if you do not. Again, before purchasing major pieces of machinery (even on the school's budget) I would be certain that these are the right pieces for your team.

Utilize your sponsors and mentors - We are now entering our 4th season and we have gone this long without these (mill and lathe) tools. In fact, this is the first season that we will have both of these machines in our shop. Our mill is a very old Bridgeport (1920's era) that one of our sponsors donated in 2014 and then one of the mentors spent most of the season last year getting it up to par. Although we were able to get the mill in our lab with no cost - we have spent over $1500 on tooling so that we can properly use it. Now it is a finely tuned machine that the students can learn on and out some very impressive parts.

We also gained a new sponsor this year that put up half of the funds for a new lathe. We are expecting the lathe to arrive within the week. If we had to rely on our own funding, it would have put us in a bind come build season (or we would have had to go with a cheaper model). Again, we put up a good chunk of money to outfit this machine with the proper tooling (just north of $400).

If you are needing to purchase now, buyer beware on Grizzly - I am sure you have done your research and found that some of their products are very spotty in the reviews.

Good Luck to your team this year!

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

Our g4003g lathe was down for around 6 months while we were waiting for a replacement gib. Luckily it was not during build season. No issues though with our g0704 mill, but it gets a lot less use now that we have a full size knee mill.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

We just ordered this http://www.grizzly.com/products/9-X-...-and-DRO/G0796 will let you know how it goes.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

We are also buying a TIG weld any ideas out there ?
This is funded by the Palouse high school FFA alumni, a separate grant.
Our hope is for our small community (1050 population) to be a destination robot lab for our small area and other future teams.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

Your input will be a great help Thanks

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

Before you go any further I think laying out the experience level of the team could really help. Again remember that there is a week until Build begins, and if you depend on having welding/milling/turning available during the six weeks and something doesn't pan out you'll be left with a disappointing robot.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

We had the G9742 horizontal bandsaw in service for about 3 years before retiring it. The real limiting factor was the 3/8 blade. We installed a good starret blade and flood coolant, which made it almost like a whole new saw, and after a while we got it dialed in to cut dead nuts straight. But, it was a bit of a project to get it cutting well. Over its life, we cut A LOT of thick bar stock on the thing, but we did break A LOT of blades (even good ones), caught the motor on fire (yes, with actual flames), and broke the power switch. We swapped out the motor with a much better one from Harbor Freight, and replaced the power switch, and the saw still cuts fine but it has quite a vibration and it feels like the worm gear is just about completely worn out. Also, the G9742 auto-shutoff at the bottom of the cut never worked properly. Impossible to adjust into a working position. We upgraded to the G9743 and haven't looked back. It's a night and day difference. And other than the new one splashing coolant on the floor, we really like it.

On the vertical bandsaw you selected, are you sure you have 3-phase power in the room? Most washers/dryers are single phase.

For welding, we've been very happy with our Miller Diversion 165, though it can be a little under powered if welding 1/4" aluminum plate on a cold day. It will handle 1/8 all day long without a problem. I've done 1/4 steel on it too and while it works, it's a little slow. The 180 is available for a little more dough. We have the Elite Classic series helmets which have worked well. We've had good experiences purchasing through Cyberweld.

Don't underestimate the need for and expense of things like workbenches, tables, toolboxes, computers, chairs, bits, blades, consumables etc, etc. It all can really add up. The Same Club Seville Classics workbench is a good value. We own 10 of them. On toolboxes, the Harbor Freight 44" 13-drawer is hands down the best quality and value.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

At this point, I would rate your tool needs as:

1) Chop saw--could use a horizontal bandsaw instead, but a chop saw is easier to use/maintain.
2) Hand drills (emphasis on plural)
3) Plenty of drill bits
4) Other hand tools (hex keys, screwdrivers, files, stuff like that).

Unless, of course, you already have those.

Future: Everything else. Right now, you do NOT have the time to learn the more complicated items. Call that "after build season", unless you absolutely have to spend the money right now right now. If you do, you should stow the items safely until they're needed (read: after build season).

And when you do expand, I would put the order as:
1) Drill press
2) Bandsaw
3) Welder
4a) Lathe
4b) Mill

There's some debate as to whether a mill or lathe is better; I lean towards lathe. Drill press and bandsaw are easier to learn, though, and faster to set up; they come first. The welder has more utility as far as fabricating frames and supports.

I have no experience with Grizzly tools myself that I'm aware of, so I can't comment on that brand. For a mill, though, if you can get a Bridgeport, do it.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

Now that EricH did it, I will expand further:

1. Chop-Saw - I would get an Evolution Rage2 Cold Saw (with a replacement blade). A horse of a machine and it cuts everything. At least everything that we have thrown at it.

2. Drills - Milwaukee M18 Drill and Driver Combo. We now have a few of these sets and they are incredible. I have never had problems with Milwaukee - and their customer service reviews are impeccable.

3. Drill Bits. Get a lot and buy in bulk from a local welding supplier. 1/8", 3/16" 1/4", 3/8" in bulk (6-12 each). You will also want to purchase a few 1/2". Also purchase 3/4", 1", and 1.25" if the budget allows.
*
Get a 1.125" stepper bit from Automation Direct for free - see your FRC TIMS account for info (pay $6 for shipping) - this is a life saver if you have a great vice and drill press - or a mill. And then a #7 jobber bit for tapping 1/4-20.

4. Hand tools - Get a full set of ratchets.
For box wrenches, Gearwrench is suffice. Get a full set of SAE and Metric. And then purchase a few more 11mm and 7/16" wrenches.
Get a grip of Allen/Hex tools.
And couple sets of screwdrivers.
Files. Get a good set from Nicholson. Not kidding.


Once your team is settled -
-Drill Press (we have 2 JETs, 2 Deltas, and 1 Toolshop)
-Bandsaw (We have a Rockport)
-Lathe (so many to choose from)
-Mill (Bridgeport if you can)

That is all for now...

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

My pld team has the next larger lathe the G0752 that was purchased back in 2007 I believe. Two years ago the rack and drive gear to manually move the carriage wore out in the relevant range. Looked up the parts online, ordered them and had them in a couple of days.

So I can't knock their service but I'd say that in our case they had the parts in stock in their warehouse.

As others have mentioned tools used by students get treated pretty roughly and ours certainly was. So I put a lot of the blame for the failure on that and wouldn't rule out another Grizzly tool because of that.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

Given that you are down to the wire:
I would get a cheap band saw. It can cut 1" and 2" aluminum stock much faster than a hack saw. Plus it can be used to cut 2x4's, plywood and sheet aluminum. Ours came from Home Depot as a donation! Currently priced at $130.
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Tools-Har...tialmax&NCNI-5

Granted it only has a 9" throat and a 1/3 hp motor, but for the price it works great. Its 4 1/2 years old.
I would buy a band saw over a chop saw as it can cut tube and plate stock.

Our drill press is from Lowes.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_78742-46069-...tt=drill+press
A little pricy at $320 list, but they gave as a nice discount.
Having a floor standing model allows us to use large bits and to change the table angle. Its 1/3 hp motor is on the weak side for larger bits, but it too has held up for 4 1/2 years.

But for all around time savings, you can’t go wrong with a belt sander.
Ours has a 1/3 hp motor. Its been caked up with aluminum dust and still running fine.
Sears just lowered the price. Its now $102!
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-1-3-h...2&blockType=G2

More power would be nice and Sears has a new one with a 1/2 hp motor.http://www.sears.com/rikon-4inch-x-3...cPara=159_4555

If you really want a chop saw, why not get one that can accurately cut a variety of angles?
We have a 12” Dewalt saw. We added a metal cutting blade to cut wood and Aluminum.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_122210-70-DW...Ntt=dewalt+saw

Dave

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

One additional point on the hand drills, if you have a choice between 3/8" and 1/2" chucks, go with the larger of the two. It will let you accommodate more tooling, and also in a pinch you can use it to drive 1/2" shaft on early prototype mechanisms (not all mechanisms can be powered by a hand drill, and a hand drill will not necessarily be a good representative of the sorts of power solutions you can use, but if you have a shaft and all you need to do is turn in, without much time to rig something up, a drill can be a good option).

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

I'm going to downvote the Rage Evolution 2 for FRC use. We have one. It's excellent at cutting anything steel including box tube, unistrut, and angle. However, it's terrible for aluminum, especially solid bar stock. The blade is too slow, and the teeth clog pretty bad. My go-to saw for aluminum box tubing is a Dewalt 12" with a Fteud Diablo 80T blade.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

Interesting. Having read the post about the Rage2, I was interested to try it. Thanks for the post. We are using a 12" 80 tooth, carbide blade. I'm not sure if its Lenox or this Dewalt (12", 80 teeth, carbide, $30);
http://www.lowes.com/pd_73714-70-DW3...r+sa w+blades

Found this blade at Home Depot. Is this the one? (12", 60 teeth, carbide, $108)
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Diablo-12...60CF/206287397

Dave

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

The Dewalt blade you linked is okay but the construction-grade carbide is not fantastic. A better Dewalt blade is the one with carbide teeth that are bare and not painted over.

This is the Freud Diablo blade we use
http://www.amazon.com/D1280X-Diablo-.../dp/B00008WQ35

Many cuts through aluminum and it still looks brand new.

We use a smaller one of similar type in a circular saw to cut aluminum plate.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

Recently acquired a nice Sieg X2 with the Hoss mods rigged for CNC.
Including the Hoss mill head freak swivel.

One caution with Chinese mills sometimes you need to clean up the ways a bit.
The existing owner had torn this down and modified every axis so I had no worries as the quality of his work showed it was fine.

The X2 as delivered stock might be on the small side so,
A nice size mill likely worth looking at is the RF45:
http://charteroakautomation.com/our-...nual-bed-mill/

That said there is something to be said for using a Shopbot style router table.
You get a larger working area and if mistakes are made typically you cut wood.

Never tried solid stock over 3/4" but my Rage2 has not had this issue.
I agree it's a great saw for steel - cheaper than a proper cold saw but gets the job done.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

We had trouble using a 5000RPM cutoff saw with the Diablo blade, primarily around shorter cuts. I couldn't trust students to run it.

I was looking at the lower RPM Rage Evolution 2 as a replacement. Happily, we got a donation of a used Jet metal bandsaw (http://www.maxtool.com/jet-hvbs-7mw-...0v-1ph-414459?) and use that to make rough cuts, then finish them on our vertical bandsaw.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

You could just chuck up a 1/2" socket into the drill, or a 1/2" nut driver. You could fit either of those into a 3/8" chuck. Granted it's one or two more pieces to buy/lose.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

PM me and I would be more than willing to talk via phone or Google Hangouts in order to help you come up with a plan for your many many Lathe/Mill/CNC/Heavy Power Tool choices.

I have racked up a LOT of experience with used machines and your common cheaper new machines and would love to help you come to a well educated decision on the issue!

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

That works well enough for hex shaft, but if you're working with round stock not so much. Also, more importantly, it's nice to be able to use any drill bit up to 1/2" without worry, instead of needing to find one with a smaller diameter shank. There are plenty of 1/2" chuck drills available for prices as reasonable as comparable 3/8" chuck drills. However, if you find a 3/8" chuck drill that you love and have to have in the shop, it isn't the end of the world.

More important than the chuck is buying a few drills (and any other cordless tools you might want or one day want) within the same manufacturer and battery system (like the Craftsman C3 line, or another brand's equivalent) and then investing in extra batteries and chargers so you never have to wait to charge a too and can swap stuff around. This is something where a little research before purchase is required, and you have to fit it to your team's needs, goals, and budget. Getting a few cordless hand drills is almost a must, buy at least as many drills as you have concurrent projects going on so nobody has to wait on a tool to get stuff done.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

True, yes sorry I was thinking about hex shaft because that's what we used, and coincidentally earlier in the day I was at a hardware store shopping for nut driver bits so that was very much on my brain.

Good advice, and I can chime in here based on years of home woodworking experience: Definitely invest in a system that will be well supported. For example, here in Canada we have a chain store called Canadian Tire, their house brand is Mastercraft. They sell cordless tools. They sell cordless tools systems that interchange batteries. However, I've been burned at least twice because they like to discontinue them in favour of the latest and greatest. Batteries ARE a consumable, and eventually disposable item. When you can't buy new batteries for your cordless tools, they will become worthless. For this reason I will never buy a Mastercraft cordless tool again.

If budget allows, buy a contractor brand. Get Milwaukee or Makita or Dewalt. Ryobi is good if you're on a budget. Contractors buy brands that have life cycles in years, not months. Stick to the same series (e.g. DeWalt 20v Max) so you can reuse batteries and chargers.

Don't buy the no-name special at Walmart or Harbor Freight because you may never see it again. Sure you can just keep buying more of them but then you have to deal with "Which of these chargers fits this battery? Which of these batteries works with my tool?" nonsense.

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

Good training and only allowing the equipment to be used by those who have the training and who show they don't abuse the equipment might delay the onset of "campification".


I never thought that I would see those words together :D

Re: GRIZZLY TOOLS
 

We need an FRC-specific term.

"robotification"? :D