Cheating in FRC
 

Hey, CD-

I'd like to bring attention to a post made today on r/FRC:

(TL;DR: Someone's team is cheating by going over the 6 weeks.)

About 13 hours after this was posted, the OP commented on the thread, saying:

Despite the OP deciding to refrain from reporting his/her team, I felt it my responsibility to bring this to the FIRST community. Something needs to be done about this. If anyone reading this knows or is a member of the team described, PLEASE report it. Not only is this behavior toxic to the members of the team by degrading their ethical values, it's toxic to all of FRC because of the legitimate teams that don't get to go to World Champs because of this illegitimate team. It also spits in the face of Gracious Professionalism.

To clarify: I'm not personally involved with the person whose team is cheating, I'm merely a bystander who thought it important to take action.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

This is bad. I am really sadden to hear that this is going on in FIRST being a 9 year veteran. I had always wondered if this happened and I am very unhappy to hear that it does.

If anyone has any information on this team, please pass it along here on CD and we will get it to the appropriate people. Even if the person does not have the courage to report it themselves, I will do it for you. PM me.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

If a participant feels that their own team doesnt follow the strict part of the FIRST rules, I would suggest emailing FIRST directly.
No need to air out dirty laundry here.

Every uncomfortable situation has 2 sides to a story.

Just a suggestion.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

With the number of folks involved in FRC, there is almost certain to be cheating... If we value honesty in this event, it's imperative that we confront the offending individuals/teams, etc. If this does not quietly solve the issue, word should be passed up the line - either to your district/regional chairman or to Frank Merrick.

Reports are often going to be a he-said-she-said situation, making any sort of "investigation" difficult. However, if an incident is reported by several different sources, it can be dealt with properly.

Making such reports is especially important if the offending team has a fair amount of competitive success. The last thing we want is for the "only" way for teams to win is by cheating.

And, also, we probably don't want to go into a lot of detail on CD... Having accusations float around the community without being substantiated will do far more harm than good.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

How, in precise terms, did this this team cheat? Did they un-bag their robot and work on it? Did they build a practice robot to work on? Did they build parts that could be considered part of the withholding allowance? It's really difficult to assess the situation without these pieces of information.

On top of this, even if the team in question was blatantly breaking a rule, public shaming is hardly the best way to remedy the situation.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

+1

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I saw this yesterday on reddit and didn't reply because plenty of people had already given gracious and helpful comments regarding the reporting, so I was hopeful that OP had the courage to report. It's unfortunate that no details were given as to which team this is, but considering that OP was intimidated enough to not report, I feel like this issue may be deeper than we have been told.

If you're reading this OP, PLEASE report the members of your team who are not being GP about how they lead your program. Yes, it's YOUR program, not your mentor's. If you fear harassment from your team for reporting, I recommend seeking a nearby team for guidance, and possibly join them for the season. They may be helpful for reporting and give you the courage to do so.

If there are no reasonably close teams, then maybe reporting and taking a break from their program may benefit you for your sake mentally after reporting. If the problem is somehow resolved, come back to the program.

The other side of this of course, is that this is all anecdotal and only from the perspective of the student, and could be exaggerated. Regardless, it should still be reported. The situation may not be bad enough to remove a mentor, since this is not exactly the best solution to a problem we are not clear about, but if the offending mentors are notified officially from FIRST, there may be a positive change in behavior.

Although I am also curious as to how exactly they're breaking the 6 week timeline, I'm not as worried about the robot being worked on after stop build as I am worried about how the Chairman's Award process is allegedly lacking in integrity and student involvement. That completely defeats the purpose and spirit of the Chairman's Award and if this is indeed how their award is being put together, that is many times over a greater offense than adding robot parts after stop build on the competition bot. After all, it's not all about the robot.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Agreed with all of the above. But ultimately it is up to our own team leadership to self police.

If my team does well but fails to make it to champs, then so be it. We will know that we tried our best and we will strive to be that much better next year. If the reason we didn't make it is because the team that beat us cheated to get there - well, that's frustrating and heartbreaking, but does not take anything away from our successes. Now, if we KNOW that team cheated, then of course we will report it. That's only fair. But otherwise we have to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Seek the truth, not what you wish to see.

OP, talk to a person at FIRST, go from there.

Everyone else, don't jump to conclusions.

Mentors are awesome because they volunteer their time to work with high school kids.

Let's try to be rational, not reactionary.

-Mike

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

You're correct in that we do not know how they are actively breaking the rules other than they are "going over the 6 week limit" and it shouldn't be shamed.

However, this still represents a serious problem, not just for FIRST, but for high school programs as a whole. If adults are willingly and knowingly breaking a rule(s) and the students feel threatened enough to not speak up outside of anonymously posting on a public forum, there's an issue.

My advice to the student, if he/she is reading this thread. You need to bring this up to parties outside of your adult mentors. Not only should you be alerting FIRST, if you are associated with a school, student center or program (Boys & Girls Club, 4H, etc.), you need to bring this up with administrators. This will give them the opportunity to investigate the problem. If you are worried, talk to your parents/guardians, they, for sure, do not want your experiences ruined by something like this.

I'm not overly bothered by the "over 6 week thing" or the "Chairman's" issue, as ungracious as it is, but it's the fact that students (there's no way it's only one student who feels disenfranchised by this) are being suppressed by adults, especially when the students know rule-bending might be occurring.

I hope the student(s) the best and this is best handled by reporting it to the proper people, not hiding it.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I don't believe this person is "airing out dirty laundry" at all. This person is clearly in a very difficult situation and is looking for advice. Yeah the obvious answer in this situation is to email FIRST and tell the of the rule violations, but I'm sure that is much easier said than done.

It is clear that this student loves FRC and this could be the only FRC team this student has in the area and could have nowhere to go if FIRST were to do something to their team, or if their team were to find out and they were no longer accepted on the team.

We all know how close we become with our teams, almost like family, even after only one season. Alerting FIRST of this issue could have serious reprecussions for the team and knowing that you could cause that has to be unimaginably difficult.

Imagine the possible effects on this student from the team members on the team who are ok with the cheating if they found out this student alerted first of the cheating.

Although this student may not feel comfortable with telling FIRST of this issue, they have tons of courage to bring this issue to the attention to the FIRST community in the search for advice. I'm sure it is quite easy to turn the blind eye to cheating of this sort. This student having the courage to ask the community for advice, and bringing this issue to our attention shows their love and passion for this sport in keeping it ethical and fair for everyone. Just because they are confused and don't know what to do, that does not mean they are "airing out dirty laundry"

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

In any organization this large, there's always going to be a small percentage of people who game the system. It's inevitable, and you'll find this all over the place in the real world. It's an unfortunate reality.

What's important to maintain the integrity of the organization is that the problem is identified and stopped whenever and wherever possible. This is why so many here are (rightfully) asking OP to notify HQ. Ignoring misconduct breeds more of it, and it's not long before the honor system is a joke. I expect more from a FIRST team, and I'm sure that everyone else here does as well.

If your team is doing something it shouldn't, it is your responsibility to stop it. Don't rely on mentors, administration, or anyone else. Turning a blind eye is sanctioning this behavior. FIRST is what we make it.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Personally, I think that it should be handled by FIRST and not in any open forum.

Dinokaiz2, did you at least message OP that you were doing this? If someone recognized it there, someone might recognize it here too. I'm not saying what you did was wrong, but please let him know so he isn't blindsided by this if someone figures out it was posted here before he does.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I apologize if I'm naive but I don't use Reddit often. The OP may have done it anonymously and there was no contact information.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

This is exactly why I chose not to contribute to the reddit conversation because plenty of comments had already suggested emailing FIRST to report. I figured OP would solve the issue in this manner, and was seeking help on reddit since OP didn't know what to do. I didn't need to contribute to the conversation as I felt that it would be resolved between OP, the team, and FIRST. Now this is on CD and it's kinda opened up a can of worms. I'd suggest Dinokaiz2 to contact OP if he/she remembers the username, and delete this thread. It is important that more have been notified of the issue, but since what is needed to be said has already been said, there's no need to keep this up for too much longer. At this point, with how little information we have, we can't do much other than make the suggestions we have already made. Talking about this issue further in the forum isn't going to do much to resolve the situation, as CD is not really the place for this. Also I feel for the other students on this team who may have done nothing wrong, and are reading that their team is being seen in a bad light, even if we can't identify them. The only ones who know are the team members, and us talking about this and possibly jumping to conclusions could further exacerbate the issue and cause more of a problem for more people on that team.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

The account can still be messaged to at least tell him that this is happening here. I unfortunately can't message him cause I don't know his reddit user name. If anyone else has or can get that info, please message him.

-Edit-
I messaged the Mods of r/frc. Maybe they will to get the message to him.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

To put it bluntly - lying to judges is more common than you'd expect.

On Chairmans:
Exaggerating in Chairman's is almost expected (we'll see how the new guidelines impact this) And I know that many teams rely on adults to work on Chairman's in the same way that they rely on adults in the design and fabrication process. I don't see this as a problem at all. We are there as mentors not as baby sitters, and we should be leveraging our knowledge and experience to make sure the team produces the best results it can. Now, I don't think a team where the adults do all the Chairman's prep work, students present it, and they win at the HoF level is a good result, I also don't think it's possible.

But I digress - To me, this is an anonymous poster venting about their perceptions. Reality may be VERY different. If anyone actually involved in the situation would like advice on resolving it: Sit down with the disgruntled party, discuss issues, figure out a plan moving forward. If the disgruntled party wants advice - contact your local Senior Mentor/RD and talk it out with them, they can probably help get you in contact with the right folks.

On Cheating:

Short term, they may win. Long term?

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

This bothers me. My team does not lie to judges at all... We also work hard to be accurate in our assessments of our work and deeds for our Chairman's presentations.... You make it sound like we are at a serious competitive disadvantage for being honest.... I thought FIRST was supposed to be better than this?

I recognize that, with 3000 teams and tens (hundreds?) of thousands of participants and mentors, some folks will be a bit misguided. But to think that it's the "norm" does not sit well with me.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

The student in question did not post it here on CD. Someone else did.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

My key word for what you quoted me is "allegedly." For all I know, the student could be interpreting the exaggeration of facts as lies, when they're just doing basic marketing to make their team look good. Also, the mentor involvement may be seen as excessive when it could indeed be appropriate. OP isn't a rookie, but still may be inexperienced in the nuances of award submissions and could be misinterpreting what is actually happening.

I was just giving OP the benefit of the doubt.

This is why the reporting is so important. This needs to be sorted out between that team and FIRST, not us. The furthest we should go is make that very suggestion.

I would like this to be my last contribution to this thread, which I hope is removed for the reasons I have stated in my previous reply.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I agree that some sort of mediation may required if everything explained in the original post were in fact legitimate grievances and not a misunderstanding. However, I implore you to be a bit more objective while looking at this situation.

We do not know which rules, if any, were broken. We do not know anything about the relationship between this student and the mentor, or the student and her or his peers. We do not know about the culture of the team, or what would qualify a student to become part of the leadership structure. It's very hard to make an assessment of the situation before knowing these things.

I would recommend the student in question try again to speak to the mentor in question. If you believe a rule was broken, politely ask for clarification on the rule and why your team worked in the manner it did. If you were not selected for leadership, ask about which skills and qualities you can work to improve for next season. Remember, your mentors are there to help you. Instead of being hostile, be as polite as possible and make it impossible for them to leave you behind. If by the end of this conversation you are convinced they are still "out to get you", try to have a discussion with your peers or other mentors about how to remedy this situation.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Reporting something like this can be scary. It's easy to worry about possible repercussions - if the team is negatively impacted the student may be treated badly by mentors or Fellow students, and here "badly" is a relative term - it could be anything from shunning to physical assault, depending on the individuals involved.

So I'll offer up an alternative solution. Find a mentor or volunteer on here from an area different from yours. One that doesn't interact with your team or your events, and one that doesn't work for FIRST. Private message them (from a new anonymous account if you feel it necessary) and ask if they would be willing to advise you. Bring the problem to them, go back and forth filling in the details that have been mentioned in this thread, and see what they say. Let them mentor you through the situation. I would willing volunteer for this role for any student who needs it, and help them as best I can, without making anything public or reporting it to FIRST without the students agreement. Of course, if you attend one of the Minnesota events that may not help, as my role of LRI at those events puts cheating like this under my purview... But that may also make someone like me a great resource for anyone going through this, as I can look at the situation from both sides (as a mentor and as someone having to enforce the rules).

In short, please reach out and talk to someone. It doesn't have to be public, and at least in this situation it sounds like being public isn't really an option. But all the same, Talk to someone who will listen, and listen to their advise!. Perhaps the best thing about the internet, when it comes to something like this, is the anonymity... If you don't provide a name or team number, then it can't flow back on you!

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I don't think the intention of posting this story on CD was to publicly shame anyone, it was more to get the story to a broader audience and to make an effort to help report the team to FIRST officials. If another member of the team, or the reddit OP, sees this post they might be urged into reporting. Or if someone recognizes the story they could look into the team a bit and help move things forward.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

It doesn't sit well with me either, but it is the reality of the "Chairman's game".

We're relatively new to Chairman's (only submitted twice). My advice to our Chairman's team (students and mentors) is be proud of our actual accomplishments and "stick to our guns".

You, no doubt, also have much to be proud of with your team's accomplishments.

Although it is hard, and often doesn't feel fair, I like Chairman's to focus more positive energy internally to our team, rather than bring in potentially negative energy from outside the team.

That is our way to cope, YMMV.

-Mike

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Unfortunately it's true.

I guide our Chairman's team and I set it from the outset with the students. I'm just there to help them put everything together. They write the paper, they make the video, they prepare and practice their presentation.

I still believe that the majority of teams do the same.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I saw this post on Reddit too and remember there being a great comment about perceived cheating that was not actually cheating (since the Reddit OP was a first year). The Reddit reply had mentioned things like working on a practice bot, working on code or working on a mechanism within the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. To a new member these may appear to be "cheating" though are allowed by last year's rules. I did not see any replies and the thread is now deleted.

Over the years I have heard a number of things called "cheating" by students, parents and spectators who did not understand the rules well enough (let's face it, sometimes I feel like a lawyer reading all the Q&A and rules updates all the time).

-matto-

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

There are ways to cheat, and there are ways to cheat.

Not bagging on stop build day is a clear violation. Bagging the robot, and continuing to work on a component within the hold back limitation is fine. Kids who do not understand that rule sometimes think the team is cheating. We build a 2nd robot for that explicit purpose. Continuing to refine the design after stop build, and bring the new component (within the hold back allowance) to the competition.

In the grand scheme of things, for a well performing team, there is limited value of not bagging on time vs. continuing to work on the hold back. For a rookie team that doesn't even have a functioning robot, the cheating could be huge. For the rookie team, I can see "looking the other way" so that they can compete. Rookie teams tend not to do very well, so the giving them a handicap advantage is not so bad.

Then there is cheating. The competition is for the students to learn. A mentor built robot, while not technically "cheating", takes away from the experience for the kids. The mentors need to remember "gracious professionalism", and take a step back for the benefit of the students.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

This is great advice. Some of the judgement here seems to be going back on the reddit OP... that is upsetting. This is a student looking for guidance without shaming his teammates. If Minnesota is not an option perhaps Connecticut is. I have been a team mentor for 10 years and have been a sounding board for several students who were trying to navigate difficult situations. I would be happy to help talk through the situation up to and including helping you talk to FIRST if that is the right option.... with complete anonymity. Feel free to pm me if I can help. :)

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

For those suggesting the student should report to issue directly to FIRST, what do you think FIRST will do with that information?

I'm not sure FIRST is capable of launching investigations or have the desire to take away previous awards or removing 'guilty' mentors/students for every report of cheating. (The 2012 championship was very different than this). I like John's suggestion of reaching out privately to respective members of the community.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I understand but it still took a lot of courage to bring this to the communities attention and ask for advice on the FRC Sub Reddit

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

In the reddit post he mentions that his head mentor countered the accusations of cheating by saying "as long as the kids are inspired and having fun", leading me to think that the head mentors knows it to be cheating. But you are right, we definitely don't know for sure.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I feel sorry for this student. The right thing to do is to speak to FIRST.
If you, the student, are reading this, you can PM me if you don't feel comfortable. If you are near by and you would like, I can talk to my team mates and make you part of our team.
There is no pressure, but as part of the FIRST community, I am disappointed with your team mates for cheating.
Gal

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

You submit for Chairman's enough and follow the sport enough to notice that awarding dubious submissions degrades the quality and integrity of the award, indirectly allowing for more latitude that can lead to more dubious submissions being awarded that create a negative feedback loop that has brought us to a thread like this... a thread that is in no way surprising to me and elicits no real reaction from me. You put your ear to the walls enough to hear some pretty absurd stuff re: chairman's award. You eventually become deaf to it, or at least tone it out in the way most people tone out a screaming infant in a theme park (I am not one of those people in both the literal and metaphorical uses of this phrase).

At some point people need to raise the bar back up. If that means turning in your mentor/s then so be it. Folks need to hold themselves to a higher standard. I understand that people have come to expect this type of behavior, but would anyone say it's ok? By making statements like I'm not as worried that the team goes over the six week build time is asinine.
Strive to be the best person possible, you may find that others will follow your lead !

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I think we are talking about different things.

I was talking about teams making false claims in their chairmans submissions.

It sounds like you are talking about mentors working on submissions/presentations.

I like mentors to be a part of every step of the process.

It sounds like you do not.

Mentors working with students on awards is not cheating.

Teams falsifying information on awards is cheating.

-Mike

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Lest people think I think I'm ok with the "game" - a large portion of the judges' jobs is being a detective to find the truth. So, the good news that goes along with it is, usually folks can tell.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I agree that the role of a mentor includes reviewing and making suggestions for improvements for award submissions, just like they would in relation to building the robot or writing software. But a mentor that is suggesting that breaking the rules (by reporting incorrect information... or by working outside the build season) is OK because the kids are still "inspired" is seriously confused. I don't think that word means what you think that word means. Receiving accolades for cheating is not inspirational... it is sad and disappointing. It is also NOT Gracioius Professionalism.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Easy friend, we're on the same side.

I am in favor of mentoring, I stated guiding did I not?

I must not have been clear enough in stating that I do believe too much "hands on" mentoring can lead to problems where students feel like they aren't contributing. Not that this happens all the time.

I do mentor. I do assist my students where needed. I do not tell them what to do.

I apologize for not understanding your point correctly. Yes, falsifying content is a problem.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Sorry for the misunderstanding, it sounded to me like you believed mentors being involved in "writing the paper" or "making the video" was against the rules.

Thanks for clarifying.

-Mike

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Totally agree.

If a mentor suggest breaking rules is acceptable, they are not promoting the values of FIRST, nor are they setting a common-sense "good example" for our next generation of bright young minds.

I think a lot of adults are decently rational people. I honestly believe the exact scenario of a "mentor that is suggesting breaking the rules is OK because the kids are inspired" is not a common one.

Your opinion may vary.

I just know too many decent-to-outright-incredible adults in FRC to believe that blatant cheating is an even semi-common occurrence in this program.

-Mike

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

OP of this CD thread here-

Sorry I wasn't online to read some of the suggestions about things I should've done differently in bringing this issue to light. I've been out all day since I posted this (out at robotics, actually), but now that I'm here, I'd like to answer a few questions.

First of all, I didn't PM the OP over Reddit before posting this. I apologize, it was absolutely an error on my part. I'm going to PM him ASAP because him being blind-sided by this would be terrible.

In spite of this, I don't think I'll be taking down this thread. I didn't mean at all for it to be a public shaming. I meant it to bring this to light, because I really think it's my duty as a fellow FIRSTer to do everything in my power to remedy this situation. It's a tragedy, but IMO, if I stand by, I'm as much in the wrong as the cheaters.

The main reason for this post is to get anyone who knows anything about this situation to please contact a FIRST representative.

When I posted this thread, I was truly concerned for the well-being of this team's members. As it was said earlier in this thread, what's worse than the cheating is the suppression of members who disagree with the mentor's philosophies. I understood when I made this thread that it could hurt the member of their team who posted on Reddit, and that it was possible that it was the OP's job to deal with this, not mine, so I shouldn't butt in. But I weighed that with the suppressive behavior of the mentors and the fact that the OP seemed genuinely concerned. I definitely don't think that the OP was simply unaware of the rules, despite him/her being a rookie. Contributing to that feeling is the fact that someone posted a list of allowed actions that could be misconstrued as cheating, and the OP didn't respond, instead sticking to his/her claims. I could be wrong, but I think it sufficient evidence.

If the OP sees this and is discontent with what I've done, I'm truly sorry for any trouble I've caused you, but this issue needs to stay in the light. If the only person it impacted was you, I would be in the wrong and would absolutely take down this thread. However, it seems that, because you're a "powerhouse team" that often wins regionals, your team's cheating is impacting other teams from your region and teams you meet at World Championships.

In other words, I don't believe that my actions can hurt more than they can help. This thread wont be coming down, at least, not because of me.


UPDATE: I was unable to PM the OP on Reddit because not only was the post deleted, but the account he posted it with as well. I am currently left with no ways within my power to directly contact the OP, anonymous or not. I'm desperately sorry if you've suffered consequences for my actions, OP, but I felt it my duty to do something about it.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

OP used a throwaway account on Reddit, so the chances of being able to let him/her know were already pretty low.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Hello Everyone,

Intriguing thread.

FRC prepares High School kids for the real world (and I believe that all aspects of the literal program do that)......."Coopertition, Gracious Professionalism, Safety Regimen, Honour System (bagging), etc.

Truly great ideals to be teaching our kids (and reminding ourselves of).

So FRC is, in essence, a microcosm of the world around us (Rules, Guidelines, Philosophies).

However, the world is comprised of a vast multitude of personalities with the same number of opinions and interpretations of the Rules, Guidelines, and Philosophies.

The ultimate goals of these opinions and interpretations vary widely (some hold on to the literal intentions while others do not).

One only has to attend any of the events and look closely at the various robots to see what I mean.

FRC (Rules, Guidelines, Philosophies) mirrors the real world (Laws, Constitutions, Charters of Rights and Freedoms, etc).

Have a close look at the real world and honestly come to your own conclusions regarding this thread.

As much as a level playing field is stressed in FRC, "It ain't there!", and it's no fault of FIRST. Not every team has the same funding or mentor resources. Not every team will embrace the literal meanings of the FIRST principles (once again, look at what's going on in the real world).

On the bright side, we pride ourselves (regardless of our regional finishes) on being one of the many teams that abides by the intended interpretations of the FIRST principles and continue to churn out (as many of you do) honest, hard working, safety oriented, and proud graduates of this worthwhile program who will make a difference in the real world.

Sincerely,
DG

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Great suggestion, I will certainly offer to be that contact. I am a chief volunteer but I am not a FIRST employee. I am a member of a HOF team and a 21 year team veteran.

Every year I will hear allegations of a very similar story. It is rare, extremely rare, for a team to flaunt rules. Mentors are not perfect and they sometimes misunderstand the rules. Young team members are also capable of this same misunderstanding. Usually, in short order, the mentor and/or student will see the error of their ways and correct their behavior. I can tell you that Chairman's teams are accused of misstating facts in their presentations every year and likely every event. This is an indication of how important the award is and how desirable for teams to achieve.

In spite of the desirability, many teams still do not make the attempt. When a team actively pursues Chairman's, it affects the way they think and make decisions. When a difficult decision comes before the team, they start to think "What would a Chairman's team do?" This is why I encourage every team to pursue the Chairman's award. Every team thinks they don't do enough to win, but you can't win if you don't try.
Congratulations to Team 597 the Wolverines of LA, 2015 Champs winners. Welcome to the Hall of Fame!

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I'm just a bit surprised that when I skimmed through this thread, I didn't see anyone point out that everything read in the Internet should be taken with a large grain of salt.

The Reddit OP could very well be a troll doing a little fishing. For me, until the story is corroborated by credible, independent evidence; it's interesting, but not worth more than a 6-word reply that says, "If this is real, contact FIRST."

Some of the follow-on and side-discussions here have been valuable, but when I imagine the OP, I'm as likely to imagine someone laughing, as I am to imagine someone distressed.

Don't jump into the boat folks... Know what I mean? Use due diligence before putting your faith into internet heroes, martyrs, rabble-rousers, or victims.

If that due diligence shows that a real need for action exists, *then* grab the pitchforks, and light the torches.

Blake

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

+1 for me too!

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I would wonder how blatant the violation is here.
Is the robot clearly out of the bag and being worked on/driven?
Was there a "strategic" hole in the bag to fix something broken?
Leaving more than the allowed weight out of bag?
We can't say for sure.

Most Chairman's submissions try to word things favorably, which I don't see as problematic.
Outright lying about outreach? I would say that's highly problematic.

But perhaps most troubling is the fact that this student felt so afraid to come out with this information.
This suggests, to me, an environment that isn't conducive to what FIRST is all about.
As does the fact that they pulled down the post immediately when another student (?) recognized it.
Clearly, whether or not the cheating is blatant, the environment and atmosphere of that team should be closely examined, by someone not involved in it.

Finally, I think that posting to CD was an appropriate response.
It was posted on Reddit looking for guidance, and removed because someone felt threatened, not because the issue was resolved.
CD is full of experienced FIRST students and mentors, and bringing it here is simply a way to bring it to light, allow it to be discussed by people who are familiar with the climate and goals of FIRST, and hopefully to allow it to reach the OP, or team members of the OP.

I highly advise the OP (if you're reading this) to take advantage of mentors who have offered you one on one assistance, talk to them, get some advice, and (hopefully) report this to FIRST.
FIRST should not be a place where an atmosphere of cheating is cultivated.

(OP, know that we're all here to support you--FRC should be fun, not threatening or uncomfortable. And if you resolve the issue, and (potentially) need help finding another team nearby, feel free to reach out, we will all do our best to help you achieve future success in FIRST!!)

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I'm concerned about why the post was taken down, if it was sorted out that is one thing, the alternatives are a bit darker. I really hope the OP steps forward and at least confirms they are alright with a few people and lets it diffuse a bit.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

If this is real, the original person should contact FIRST.

Regardless, I recommend everyone else avoid the urge to become ersatz guardian angels, or internet vigilantes.

If this is real, if someone actually involved contacts FIRST, that will be enough to get it resolved.

If it turns out that I'm wrong, that will be a new conversation.

Correct?

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

Sure, contacting FIRST might be what we would all want... But for someone afraid of blowback within their team and/ or school, it may not appear like an attractive choice. Receiving individual, directed mentoring and advice on the issue, being able to go back and forth with thoughts and talk about the issue is an improvement over the current situation, and could lead to better resolutions. In this case, I think we need to look at what's best for the student involved.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

My advice is focused 100% on the student.

FIRST, once made aware of any allegations, by an anonymous report, by a reporter who asks to have their name kept secret, or by a reporter who wishes to be named; can discreetly investigate, and can use their influence to attempt to improve anything that needs to be improved.

If the people in FIRST (who I know care about students beyond just STEM inspiration) perceive a need to ask local administrators (or any other members of the local community) to keep an eye on things, I trust that they will discreetly do it.

On the other hand, we here can form rabbles, can reach ill-informed conclusions, can go off half-cocked, etc.

This sort of thing needs to be handled by people able to get to the truth of the matter, and able to be (physically) present for the long haul.

If that original report it's true, contact FIRST, and perhaps someone in the local administration/community. From them you can get improvements. From the Internet, you often get something else.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

I don't think it really is the norm. I do think that teams with little experience may see the efforts they make as bigger than they really are. It is perfectly natural to be proud of accomplishments and to see them as awesome or amazing when, after seeing what others do, they are just average. Every team sees its robot as amazing and they should, it is only in the crucible of competition that teams can compare with other robots. Even then the natural tendency of a team is to only remember the good things. It is fitting to do that... we all do it.

When a team crosses the line and makes up things, or intentionally lies it is a different situation. I have been around many teams and I don't think our competition breeds this kind of behavior for the most part. I think that teams that do that usually give themselves away.

Your team should be justifiably proud of your accomplishments, NRG has a great team and the power and value of your team and your experiences and the effort that you make shines through in all you do. This honest pride is reflected in your chairman's group and your individual team members.

Teams without this honesty show a different kind of light. It is visible. This is the power of honesty in our society. It is a light and you can't imitate it or cheat your way into making believe that you have it.

Your team has the light. I have seen it... Don't worry that you are at a disadvantage. You have put yourself in a position of a great honest advantage by what you do and who you are. You are a success and you are already winners.

We hope to get a chance to work with you this year.

Re: Cheating in FRC
 

And I'll reiterate.. If the student is comfortable going to FIRST (which the original post indicates), then why shouldn't we offer them an alternative that can help them? Why should we sit here and insist that they do something they aren't comfortable with, something that could lead to adverse consequences in their school or peer group?. Putting it out on a forum like this is a great way to get tons of non-specific and probably not very helpful advise. Going to a single trusted individual and having an in depth conversation, on the other hand, can provide the support and confirmation one needs to take things to the next level.