Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Figure 2-1 looks to just be a CAD rendering of the field with all the different DEFENSES installed.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

You cannot damage (successful crossing twice) a defense by moving from a courtyard into the neutral zone because the definition of crossing (pg. 31) requires you move the opposite direction.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

The post will be edited to make sure people can find it.

Page 100, 5.5.10.1 says that the audience selects Outer Works pos 3, and in figure 2-4, it shows pos 3 as in the center (of the 5 outer works spots) and in fugure 2-1 the audience selected is in pos 2 and 4, which is incorrect.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

For what I have found, the picture is wrong since the field tour video also said that it was the middle/center defense was chosen by the audience.

My question is how do they choose, is it a poll or measured in decibels?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

can you damage your own defense if you go from the neutral zone into your own courtyard?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Does anyone know if the outerworks are available for purchase online and if so what the website would be?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Yeah, there are going to be a lot of things going on for the refs to watch.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

For those who are worried about the price of the boulders, keep in mind that you don't need many, 1 - 4 would be fine. The only issue would be wear and tear over time, but if you plan to play ONLY with new balls then you shouldn't plan to play in eliminations.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

How are you seeing that the audience selected ones are in 2 and 4?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

The head ref is the judge on that, it is by loudest response.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Group A pieces are the audience selected ones. those are the ones pos 2/4.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

No, the definition of crossed (pg. 31) requires you to end up in the opponent's courtyard. I do not know how one can do that by attempting to cross into your courtyard.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

You need to reread the rules governing how the DEFENSES are selected, in section 5.5.10.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

the moat isn't 2ft deep, as in how far down it goes. I got to go on the field and see all the stuff at the kickoff event, and it only went a little above my ankle. Either it's referring to a different t dimension, or it's a typo

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Check out the second paragraph in 5.5.10.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

As I understand, that paragraph only governs the practice matches and allows teams to pick what they practice against.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

They aren't. Your field build team will build them.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

if you read my other comments, you would see i was referencing the fact that figure 2-1 is incorrect, as it shows them in the wrong position, unless you are pointing something else out, which next time would be great to know instead of being broad.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Category A is not the one that is always chosen by the audience. The category will change throughout the event.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

The audience chosen defenses are not always the tall tower/door looking defense. The audience chooses one of the two defense choices from a predetermined category that is generated with the match schedule.

In figure 2-1, it appears that the audience chosen defenses were from Category B

Hope that helps! :)

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Ah, i thought this excluded group A. My mistake, thank you.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

I got something crossed on my replying, that was an irrelevant response by me.

Being that there are double of the DEFENSES (the audience selected DEFENSE being the same for both ALLIANCES) I would take that to mean there is a full set of DEFENSES for each ALLIANCE. Also, I saw nothing stating the DEFENSE selection is dependent on the opposing ALLIANCES selections.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

FIRST Frenzy: Raising the Bar was the most complex I saw in my years with FIRST.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

This looks like it's going to be a pretty insane game for all volunteers that are anywhere near the field. :yikes:

Refs are going to have an interesting time. I would guess, similar amounts of crazyness as Aerial Assist, in that there will be a lot going on, but it won't be happening at the same speed as AA

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

It would be best for teams to ally with other teams in your area to build and host practice matches. This year more than any year. Shop practice, practice bots, practice matches and going to multiple events is a HUGE advantage!

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

some of the defenses (gate and drawbridge) would be easy to breach from the courtyard side. Can you go through the courtyard side then reverse once you are in contact with the nuetral zone while still contacting the drawbridge or gate and then go back through to score a breach?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Nope. You have to start free of contact with the Defense in the Neutral Zone.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

what if you come through backwards and then hold it open for an alliance team?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

They can go through and cross.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Gates makes such treads... In fact, in 2010, one of my former teams (2783) actually got such treads donated in return for sponsor space on the robot. That was back in 2010 though, so things may have changed.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

So, on the line of the spy, what are the restrictions of movement? Can the spy move from the spy box? And if so, what about the person? The spy in itself has not really been covered in the manual, just briefly talking about it, can someone please explain further?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

You can't contact anything outside the Spy Box. That would include floor.


The Spy's role is to signal the alliance as to things they need to know.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Ok, so on the line of that, so the spy bot can not be controlled once in the box, only in the round?

And, on the other hand, what is the advantage of having the spy bot? Is it required?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

the spy bot is not in a box, only a human player is.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

I am still really confused on the whole spy thing, it seems like a not needed thing, and if you move it out of it's area, you could get fouled on it, whats the point of it?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Are you confused on the Spy Box, the Spy Bot, or both?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Gopher balls are pretty expensive! If you want just the same balls, you can buy the rainbow set, but it won't be FIRST branded.

Set of 6 is going for around $200: http://www.gophersport.com/pe/premiu...gaAv3l8P8 HAQ

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

There are two spies.

Spy BOX: Place where a human stands (Driver or Human Player). They act as an extra set of eyes.

Spy BOT: Robot that starts in the Courtyard. No difference from any other robot on the alliance other than starting location.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

The issue seems to be that SPY is not defined in the GLOSSARY. If you check out the definition of SPY BOX, though, it is located outside the FIELD. Rule G9 then discusses the occupant of the SPY BOX.Check out rule G7, it talks about the "spy bot".

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Make sure you have the correct diameter selected, the 10 inch set is $205.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Check your diameter. The 10” balls on the website you attached are $205 for a set of 6. It is $80 only for the 6.3” diameter balls.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Alright, this makes a lot more sense about the spy, now then, what about the secret passage, where is the exact rules on it, and if the same team can bypass the defenses on there side.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

What are you thoughts? Open the pdf of the manual and use the find function to search for secret passage.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Does anyone know if the Q&A system is open, or when it opens if it isn't yet? How do you ask a question, when it's open?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Naah, just give me an decibel measuring app.

Although I suspect we will be busy scoring points for CROSSINGS.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

He had to take his shoes off .... ;)

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

It is not open. It's not open to try to force everybody to actually read the Manual.

It should open up mid-week--tradition is that it opens on the first Wednesday of build season, AFTER Team Update #1 comes out on Tuesday.

And when it's open, they'll have a message out on how to use it.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Past interpretations have been that if a robot has a path out, it's not a pin. You have to contact the robot and prevent it from moving for it to be a pin.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

However, there is another rule that could be in play. If they're heading to or from your Courtyard, and you interfere, there's a foul for that.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Has anyone found anything regarding how the boulders must be rolled into the secret passages? Do they have to be entered using a bowling-type fashion?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

You'll notice a "drop box" above the chutes they roll through...

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

What are the perks of having a spy on the other side of the map? I'm curious to know.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

You select the defenses that your opponents have to traverse.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

I've noticed the game seems to contain many small elements from past games. Climbing similar to 2013, the Rock Wall and the Cheval de Frise seem similar to 2012, etc. Do you think this will present a significant disadvantage to newer teams who didn't need to overcome those obstacles in previous games?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Take note of G4, G33, and the diagrams in section 2.2.3.1 (Section 2, page 15).

Are you saying that the drop box is the only alternative to using a bowling-motion with the embrasures?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

The abundance of robot demo videos should negate this problem.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

the rule just say that they have to enter through one of the 3 holes in the hp station (G33), so pushing kicking the boulder through a bottom hole may be allowed as long as you do not put your hand/foot through.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

My rookie year, can confirm!

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

At the kickoff I attended, they had 2/3 of a field set up, and I saw someone trying to kick a boulder through the HP station all the way to the opposite courtyard. He couldn't get it to go under the low bar, but he did get it over the ramparts, which were positioned next to the low bar.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

The perks of having a Human Player spy is that they have a better view of the other side of the field.

One benefit of having a Spy Bot is for bots that cannot cross the defenses. At least they can shoot, and later on help capture the castle.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Ref's don't have to count boulders, there are sensors for that.

Ref's have to watch:
1) Robots crossing defenses.
2) Robots tossing balls at the wrong time
3) Robot interaction
4) Human players (spy, boulder person)
5) Capture castle at the end

Seems pretty manageable to me.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

That would be a G43 foul, not a G22 foul.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Would it be possible and viable to just have your robot stand in front of the human player station and launch boulders into the tower like some teams did with the frisbees in Ultimate Ascent

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

I was really liking this game, even if it's corny I found it interesting. I like that they've left options to adapt the game to higher levels of play. I like the "low bar" idea, as it gives toasters something to contribute in a game where they otherwise couldn't do much (though I would like to see someone make a robot that can fit under the portcullis without raising it). I like the batter cleats, as they could serve a dual purpose as a very easy alignment tool for shooting. Oh, and hooray for the return of frame perimeter!

BUT...

• I read the words "audience selection" and I died inside... seriously, who thought of this horribly imbalanced way of deciding the outcome of a game. Especially at smaller events (looking at you, districts) It's a pretty easy way for big teams to leverage their size to shift a match in their favor, either by picking a defense their team can score in, or picking a defense that other teams can't score in. How much of an effect will this have for the first few weeks, and at lower levels of play? Probably none. However, at high levels of play, it could have an effect.
• By the looks of it, slot 3 and 4 are good places to put the portcullis to really screw with tower vision. Another potential easy way for large teams to cripple smaller (or quieter) teams. I don't mean to rail on big teams, I'm from one, but the audience selected defense is so easily exploited, that it just isn't fair under certain conditions.
• The complexity of this field is just screaming "field fault." Any team looking to ensure that they don't get screwed by improper field setup should keep copies of their requested defense configurations. Someone please tell me that it's designed so that you can't put the Category C structures in backwards. It might sound silly, but I'd bet my life that someone's gonna put the drawbridge in backwards at some point in week 1.
• The complexity of this field also means that it will be very difficult for most teams to have a complete set of practice field components.

Predictions about gameplay:

• Smart, strategic drivers and tiny robots will make terrifying opponents. A team with a good collector and good driver will put themselves in a whole new class of "map control" teams. Utilizing the many choke points on the field, pushing boulders through the low bar for allies, and completing a few barrier objectives will make the lives of shooter robots much easier, and teams who can consistently complete these tasks will be power picks, even if they don't put up many points alone.
• Captures will be MUCH more common in elims than breaches. This is because a breach requires robots to be able to get through the Portcullis/cheval de frise, as well as either the low bar or drawbridge/sally port. Any combination of these objectives is based entirely on the alliance's combined abilities, and most teams will scout to find what defenses certain teams struggle with.
• HPs will either figure out how to get the ball past the low bars, or get them to angle them into the neutral zone.
• The cheval de frise will be the most underutilized defense, throughout much of the season. The portcullis provides some utility as a vision block to drivers, although it is probably easier to get past than the cheval. Also, on that topic, spy usage will be limited for the first couple weeks, but will gain huge importance later in the season.
• There will be video of some team getting stuck on the rock wall before week 2.

The best alliances at the regional level, assuming the tower strength rules aren't changed, will include:
A pure shooting robot that can get over the easier barriers, possibly with climbing capabilities
A robot that can either shoot or herd into the low goal, that can also handle the more difficult barriers
A robot that can herd balls through the low bar

This just... I... I don't think I've laughed this much at a Youtube video before.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

See G39

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

No. Tech Foul. You have to be in your opponents' Courtyard to launch.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

https://youtu.be/HsvsOI5jV-s?t=45s

Either through a bowling-style throw or pushing in a hole in the top (where it can only fall vertically).

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Bear in mind the scope of the audience selection is really limited. They only get to pick the middle defense, they only get to pick between two options, and both alliances get the same defense. I don't know how often there'll be a situation where one alliance would clearly benefit from one choice, and the other alliance from the other. I do suspect that drivers will dislike the tall, vision-obstructing defenses (portcullis and drawbridge), and maybe encourage their teams not to vote for those.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Check out rule 5.5.10.1.

If I am reading it right, the audience only gets to pick between the defense options within a single group, and the groups are rotated alphabetically. So we won't see the same audience selection round after round after round (despite what the biggest or loudest team might want).

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

As far as human players are concerned, with many of the defenses, visibility is going to be an absolute NIGHTMARE. The low bar, drawbridge, sally door, and, to some extent, the portcullis cut down on visibility of the robot, especially considering that there will be two layers of defense objects to look through. The human spy can communicate back to the drive team on the position of the robot, whether it is lined up, etc.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

just thinking about this, if you have a robot that is shorter than 1 ft 4 inches (designed to get under the low bar) you will not be able to see your robot pretty much at all while it is in the opponents courtyard

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

^+1

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

i mean you cant score if you are touching the carpet....

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Put a tall collapsable flag on your robot.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

How many points would be considered average in this competition

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Not against this idea at all. Nice.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

make sure it does not extend past 15" your frame when going under that bar!

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

My team was thinking of using treads. Is there any place other than Andymark where we got get treads?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

My concern is that scouting data could easily be used to find which defense among the two a particular team is good/bad with. Here's a hypothetical situation: Team A has 19 QP, and is the first seed. Team B has 18 QP, and is the second seed. However, although they aren't terrible, Team A isn't better than anyone else in the top 8, and Team B would much rather be with someone else. Team A, understanding their situation, is willing to scorch to ensure a win in elims. Both teams have one match left in qualifications. Now, let's say that Team B is a big team, and they know that in team A's last match, the audience decides the Group A barriers; their scouts know Team A is good with the portcullis, but terrible with the Cheval de Frise. So, Team B leverages their size, outscreams everyone, and gets the Cheval in A's last match, thereby influencing the outcome of a match they aren't even in.

All I'm saying is, I wouldn't have any hesitation in making big signs with the names of the defenses on them, and flashing them to my team to tell them what structure to cheer for.

Here you go, bud. I suggest the wedgetop.

I recall seeing teams use those fiberglass rods in 2013 as alignment tools, and they could flex to fit under the pyramid. I don't know if they'd be flexible enough for this, though.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

My prediction is that, in practice, the audience selection will be as good as random. Of course, teams will still put lots of effort into figuring out which defense they ought to cheer for. Which is actually kind of neat, in that team members in the stands will feel like cheering is strategically important.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

First thought when I heard that we had an audience selected element was
"Great now we need to scout the audience too."
What I remember happening is I saw the field, and then I started hearing rules and at a certain point I went "Nah too many rules I'll just wait until I have a paper copy."
Even after getting the paper copy I said "nope waiting for Q+A"

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

G39: ROBOTS are prohibited from launching BOULDERS unless they are in contact with the opponent’s TOWER or carpet in the opponent’s COURTYARD, and not in contact with any other carpet.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

I was thinking more of a pole with springs at the bottom, when you go under the bar, it would flatten against your robot, but afterwards, it would come back up.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

There is a thread on this, no good answers yet though http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...hreadid=141201

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Nope, that would be against the rules. They state that you must meet the conditions of being in contact with the boulder through a defense as you move the boulder through. You cannot shoot over the defense.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Is this also valid for autonomous? Because that would make a 2-ball pretty impossible. (can't wait to see a team prove me wrong) :yikes:

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

If a rule is stated in the game manual without mention of time period limitations, then the rule is active for the duration of the match, including autonomous. The only way to possibly make a 2 ball auto would be to take your preloaded ball through the Outer Works, score it, go back to the neutral zone, pick up a ball (without going over the center line), go back through the Outer Works again and score it.

Difficult? Yes.
Impossible? No.
Worth it? Maybe only at the highest levels of play.
Will teams do it? I wouldn't be surprised.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a team have their alliance partner drop a ball in the courtyard during autonomous which the first team could pickup and score. Obviously, the circumstances would have to be perfect, but stranger things have happened, especially during eliminations.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Good news on that front, if you take a look at the field drawings you'll see that the defenses are all on casters that slot into holes in the defense platforms. The arrangement of the casters will prevent any of the defenses from being installed backwards.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

As for the cheering to determine the defense, I bet that most refs will select something that hasn't been used much if there is no noticeable difference in the cheering volume. Let's be honest, for the most part the cheering will be equally loud (or quiet) and the ref will just pick one.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

FIRST needs to come up with a cool name for the elite field setup crew who will be responsible for setting up the defenses.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Thank you based kamen

Anyway, the more I think about this game, the more I like it. The audience thing is silly, and the theme feels rather forced, but the concept behind the defenses is clever. Scouting this season doesn't just impact picks and strategies; it has an impact on the way the entire game is played, as opposed to how individual matches are played. The fact that the tower is adaptable to the highest levels of play is really nice, as this is a dynamic that has been missing from most FRC games. I like the way the defenses are organized, as they force you to have a challenge, while still providing a couple easier methods to cross. The options in each group (except D, kind of) feel meaningful, and the differences between them actually impact the gameplay. On top of that, there are a lot of viable ways to play this game, and I expect to see many types of alliances put up ridiculous scores this season, unlike years past where one playstyle was dominant above all others. Every match will be unique, and that in itself is exciting.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Points are always good, at every level of play. Unless you're damaging your robot consistently while attempting 2-ball autos, it seems worth it to me. I think there will be plenty of early season matches where 30 points would be the winning score.

I won't be surprised either.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

That's not a terribly likely scenario. The audience selection rules note that a selection is for an entire ROUND of matches, not a single match. So one audience selection is going to be good for 10-ish matches. And in your scenario, it will affect Team A and B, since the choice for the last round will be in effect for both their last matches.Alternate game plan: Start in the COURTYARD as SPY BOT. You'll have a straight shot at the goal, then you just have to get out, grab a boulder, and get back in for the second shot.Ed, I'm pretty sure castle designers/builders were called engineers. But maybe it's more glamorous if you say it with a Ye-Olde-English accent?

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

__________________________________

Or....Choose to load the boulder into your robot, and choose to move it to the Spybot position (back left hand corner of field facing the driver station/castle wall and guard rail near Spy position box, robot must be contacting both the inner guardrail and the inner castle wall).

Start of auto period robot shoots boulder into high goal 10 points (or low goal 5 points), of Tower, then goes to collect another boulder in a variety of possible ways (though collecting one of those on the MIDLINE is a bit of a tricky thing to do in accordance with the rules and they are the only ones you can seek out at that point unless one of your alliance members just happens to bring theirs across the Defenses and properly expels it at the base of your bot and you pick it up and shoot it in a goal also, it is not impossible task), drives over any of 5 possible Defenses then shoots high or delivers low goal again. I'll bet (a small wager), before the 2016 season is out that someone actually does a 3 boulder Auto. Unless the rules don't actually allow it, since then it won't be attempted.

There are multiple ways a single bot or alliance working together can make the triple auto....and then some.

5 yrs. ago 987 and others were hanging 3 tubes, 4 yrs. ago 3 basketballs, 2 yrs. ago 254 and others 3 ball auto HOT goals....this is 2~5 yrs. of experience later. Today...Better hardware, better electronics, better vision sensing, better coding, same basic though a wee bit different mission....There will be success. You Can COUNT ON IT!

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

I bet we could find something really cool in the Urban dictionary!

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

"Worth it? Maybe only at the highest levels of play."

You have 15 seconds of auto, and nothing is going to happen until the 15 second clock winds down. If you are capable of doing so, at any level of play. And your shot was a high goal scoring in 1~2 seconds. Why on earth would you want to just let your bot sit around for 13~14 seconds doing nothing?

Those that can DO, because they always play at the highest level.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

Average teams say it can't be done and accept their fate. The great teams will ask why and if they can't do it ask why not and figure out how to get it done.

Re: FIRST STRONGHOLD Discussion
 

I think this year's term for all field volunteers is "stewards".

"Wranglers"* might be a good name for stewards who handle the tough tasks quickly and gracefully.

----
*Cambridge University uses this term for its top-scoring math students.