Secret Passage
 

According to the game manual you can enter the secret passage and have no time limit in said zone, but my question is when the opposing team rolls a ball into the secret passage. Can you steal the ball and then re-enter the courtyard to score some points? Thanks for helping me in advance!
~5442

Re: Secret Passage
 

I read that rule several times.

G20 ROBOTS may only enter or exit their opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE from/to the opponent’s COURTYARD. A ROBOT is considered to be within the SECRET PASSAGE once the only carpet the ROBOT is in contact with is the carpet inside the SECRET PASSAGE.

My reading of that is that if you've made it through the defenses and are in their courtyard you can occupy the space that is the secret passage.

You must exit the secret passage back into the opponent's courtyard as well.

So, once you are in the courtyard, you can enter the secret passage to snag balls as they are entering the field.

Re: Secret Passage
 

Yes, my interpretation of that was basically that you CAN cross from the opponent's courtyard into their secret passage (and vice versa), but you CANNOT cross from the neutral zone into their secret passage (and vice versa). Ever.

Re: Secret Passage
 

some people on the team seem to be confused on this explanation, but wont explain what they are confused on (thanks Jermery) can you explain this a little more in-depth for us? i'd love to tell you what they dont understand but they wont explain. (tensions are a little high here...)

Re: Secret Passage
 

I'll put it this way: You cannot use the Secret Passage to bypass your opponents' Defenses. You can use it to get around your own, however.

Once you are inside the defenses, you can enter but not use the passage.

Re: Secret Passage
 

That explained it. Thanks a ton!

Re: Secret Passage
 

I like that explanation. Good intuitive sense of what the rule is saying.

Here's a picture (NOT from the manual):

Re: Secret Passage
 

one more question, does the yes on entering your side go with entering apply to the enemy secret passage?

Re: Secret Passage
 

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but you are always free to enter and exit YOUR secret passage from any direction.

This picture was made assuming you were on the blue alliance.

Re: Secret Passage
 

you answered the question. thank you.

Re: Secret Passage
 

If it's ok to sit inside your opponent's secret passage, is it not possible to block [s]cannonballs[/s] boulders from entering the field indefinitely? I could not find mention of this in the manual, and it feels like I'm missing something.

EDIT: I can;t get strikethrough to work. Boulders, not canonballs. I'm too used to the pre-season speculation. :P

Re: Secret Passage
 

Boulders (please use the official term, there are no such thing as cannonballs in FIRST Stronghold) need to be returned to the field if there are more than 6 in the castle. I see no rules about intercepting incoming boulders.

Re: Secret Passage
 

Handy diagram (now featuring both sides of the field)
From the perspective of the red team.

Re: Secret Passage
 

I believe that intercepting and hoarding more than one would count as a violation of G38.

Re: Secret Passage
 

I would agree, if you try to control multiple. If you simply redirect them into your opponent's courtyard one at a time, I do not see a problem with G38.

Re: Secret Passage
 

How about if you parked right in front of the chute (I forget the official name), and every time a boulder was introduced into the field, just fire it right into the high goal from your position.
Obviously sounds like this shouldn't be allowed, but what rules would it violate?

Re: Secret Passage
 

You're not in the Courtyard. G39 says you get a tech foul per boulder.

Re: Secret Passage
 

Oh right, I forgot that the secret passage is not a part of the courtyard.

Re: Secret Passage
 

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS. Violation: TECH FOUL

This would make time in the secret passage risky.

Re: Secret Passage
 

Intentionally making an opponent break G21 would break G11.

Re: Secret Passage
 

However, there's also the rule that says you cannot cause an opposing robot to commit a foul. So if you tried to play defense on a robot in your secret passage, would the foul backfire because of this rule?

Re: Secret Passage
 

No pushing them into secret passage would be a violation of G11, contacting them in a place where they are not supposed to be would not.

Re: Secret Passage
 

The rule is that if they contact you, they get a foul.

But if they are in there--and they are allowed to be in there!--and you hit them, I would rule it as no foul at best, and G11 if you were continuously pounding them. I am also not the GDC.

Re: Secret Passage
 

There is nothing that I can find that states they shouldn't be there. I doubt G21 would be phrased how it is if you are not allowed in the opponent's secret passage.

Re: Secret Passage
 

I don't think so. I think FIRST probably made this rule as more of a privilege. The passage is a vital time saver for your own alliance, so that being said, an opposing alliance member "camping" in your lane is going to be shutting you down hard. But if you're trying to go with the flow of the game, you shouldn't have to traverse your own defenses, so naturally, you're going to want to move through your passage. If an opposing alliance member is there when you're trying to move through, they're overstepping their bounds, and should want to get out of the way, for fear of being fowled. I think that's how it will play out.

Re: Secret Passage
 

There's no rule saying you can't use your own Group C defense to exit. You don't weaken them by doing so.

Re: Secret Passage
 

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS. Violation: TECH FOUL
I see it as "You are allowed into the opposition's passage, but if they touch you while you're in it, you will be fouled, no matter what."
Simply stated, the passage belongs to the opposing alliance, not yours. That being said, they have the right to travel through it without hindrance.

Re: Secret Passage
 

G11: You CANNOT cause your opponent to get a foul as a strategy. Capiche?

Re: Secret Passage
 

I never said there was a rule stating you can't. I just stated that methodically speaking, the fastest way from an alliance courtyard to the neutral zone is through a secret passage.

Re: Secret Passage
 

What if you never entered the passage? It's not impossible to get the boulders to the neutral zone, as I understand...

Re: Secret Passage
 

Well I predict that first will have a change to rule G21 - add an exception from G11,

I also have a question I'd like to hear your answer to:
You are in my passage. You won't move. I plan on using my passage. I go in and touch you. I get flagged for a G11 for "attempting to draw a foul on you." (even though i was simply trying to use a field element designed for my alliance) But, because you were in my passage, you knew that I could only be fouled for attempting to foul you by running into you. Thus you are also fouled for a G11. Does that make sense? I think not.

Re: Secret Passage
 

I predict that there won't be.

If the GDC wanted to keep the passage clear, they would have stated that it couldn't be entered at all. They took great pains to clarify that opposing robots COULD be in there.

To answer your question, you don't get flagged for a G11 the first time. End discussion.

Now, if you repeatedly start hitting me, instead of going to one of your defenses, you might get flagged by a G11.

To really confuse you: I've had an issue and can't move. I Estop in the Passage. Who gets a G11 if you start making contact with me?

Re: Secret Passage
 

Can you interact with the boulder while in the secret pasage?

Re: Secret Passage
 

There are no rules saying you can't.

Re: Secret Passage
 

G11: You CANNOT cause your opponent to get a foul as a strategy.

If a robot is blocking your secret passage and you contact them to get them out of the way, you are not strategically causing them to get a foul but rather trying to get to your secret passage and get them out of the way. You are simply trying to play the game, not draw a penalty.

No matter who initiates the contact, it is still contact, and I believe that the robot defending the secret passage will get a penalty for contacting in the secret passage.

As long as the robot trying to get to the secret passage is not repeatedly hitting the robot trying to intentionally draw fouls against the defending robot, they will not receive a G11, but the defending robot will receive a G21.

Re: Secret Passage
 

G27 A ROBOT may not transfer BOULDERS from the NEUTRAL ZONE to the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE.
Violation: TECH FOUL per BOULDER
Only rule I found relating boulder control and secret passage.

Re: Secret Passage
 

Bingo

The rule basically provides a protected zone, otherwise why have a secret passage at all.

A team can go into it but at their own risk.

Re: Secret Passage
 

Now here's the question. Contact--in this context--generally is attributed to whoever's doing the moving to initiate.

So: I hop into your Secret Passage to get a boulder, you're nowhere around. You come piling in to get a different boulder and hit me as I'm trying to get out, making no move towards you. You initiated the contact, but without strategy to do so.

Who gets the penalty if one is given and why? Hint: It's not you. G11 only applies to strategies. And if it's me, I'll be wondering why I get a penalty when you contact me.



My personal opinion on G11 is that the GDC didn't learn from 2011 and 2012 when similar rules were in play. Concept = good. Implementation--Frank, we'll need some clarification in TU#1, please.

Re: Secret Passage
 

If the rule was revised so that instead of being:
G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS.
Violation: TECH FOUL
It was:
G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not CONFLICT opposing ROBOTS.
Violation: TECH FOUL
Everything would be cleared up.

Conflict - verb (used without object)
1. to come into collision or disagreement; be contradictory, at variance, or in opposition; clash:

Re: Secret Passage
 

Or "may not initiate contact with". That would probably clear it up even more.

The way I see it, there are three ways to clear this up.

1) Close the secret passage to any opposing robot.
2) Change G11.
3) Change G21 to clarify that you can't play D while in there (by any number of ways--though I don't think that using conflict as a verb will clear things up, seeing as that's an uncommon usage.)

Re: Secret Passage
 

They could also implement something similar to overdrive, where if the opposing robot contacts you while you're in their secret passage, it acts as a signal to pass, and you are forced to drive out of their secret passage within a certain grace period.
Personally I don't want to see the passage closed to the opposing robot, as being able to take the boulders in bound by the opposing alliance and keeping them in the courtyard makes building a shooting robot way more viable

Re: Secret Passage
 

You get the penalty because you are not supposed to be there.

Note: I think you need to be "fully in" the secret passage. So, if any part of the bot is outside the secret passage, then you are ok.

Re: Secret Passage
 

They could clarify things by introducing the concept of "right-of-way". In other words, the owner of the secret passage has right of way in it. A red robot may be in the blue secret passage if no blue robot is present. If there is robot to robot contact in the blue secret passage, the red robot receives the penalties because the blue robot has the right of way in their own secret passage.

<My opinion, not clear from the rules> Likewise, as the owner of the castle, a blue robot has right of way in their own courtyard. If they decide to park in front of one of the batters, to prevent a red robot from challenging the tower in that location, they have the right to do so, and should not be cited for a G28 violation if a red robot runs into them. If, however, the blue robot runs into a red robot during the last 20 seconds, they may be cited for G28.

Re: Secret Passage
 

How do you figure? There's nothing in the rules that says you can't go into your opponent's SECRET PASSAGE. (There is a rule about only entering from the COURTYARD.)

The question is what the word contact in the rule means - make contact with, initiate contact with, come into contact with? That needs to be defined yet.

Re: Secret Passage
 

While there is no rule that prevents a bot from entering the opponent's SP from the opponent's courtyard, it is clear to me from the rules that the intent of the SP is to be "secret" from the opposing team. So, the robot is not supposed to be there.

All the rules (contact with other bots, using it to avoid defenses, etc.) are consistent with that interpretation.

Re: Secret Passage
 

A robot is allowed in the opposing alliance's secret passage - There is no rule that prevents this. But, by statement of rule G21, A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS.
This means that your own alliance gets priority in your alliance's secret passage. if a robot is touching your secret passage's carpet, and you touch them, they are fouled, because this contact breaks rule G21.

The best way to think about your space in an opposing alliance's secret passage is as a privilege, not a right - you'll be fouled for overstepping your bounds.

Re: Secret Passage
 

Can anyone point to the rule that SPECIFICALLY says your alliance's secret passage is adjacent to YOUR castle?

This one (top) diagram makes it confusing by showing a blue flag next to a red secret passage (which doesn't match either the game video, other diagrams, or the field CAD which all show red next to red and blue next to blue).

Re: Secret Passage
 

I like this idea, as it allows for just a clarification, instead of having to change the rules. Hopefully that's what the GDC decides to do, or already has and just needs to specify.

Re: Secret Passage
 

We are having the same probably deciphering the field. This error has kept us from completing the design of our robot and establishing a strategy can someone help?

Re: Secret Passage
 

We're plowing ahead assuming the red secret passage is next to the red castle & drivers stations (which makes more sense from a game-play standpoint). I'm thinking that top image represented an end-of-game scenario after both the towers were captured - but they didn't properly label it.

Re: Secret Passage
 

This cannot be done. It creates a chokehold where you pile up the game pieces in the secret passage and the opponent cannot get to them to score.

Re: Secret Passage
 

Good catch.

I'm pretty sure the straight-down view (i.e. the top one) is wrong. That angle-down view looks correct, and corresponds to the game reveal and field-walkthrough videos (except the opening of the field-walkthrough, which uses the bad top-down view) -- and frankly, makes more sense.

This is a pretty serious bug, and I think is causing much of the confusion in this thread. Most of the field map pictures in the game manual are straight-down and thus wrong.

So how do we officially report this to First?

Re: Secret Passage
 

I think the flag you're seeing is the one that is "down". I.e. You're seeing the blue flag because it's "down" and the red one would be "up" (which is why you can't see it in a top view). In that case, all the photos are right.

Re: Secret Passage
 

The Q&A system

Re: Secret Passage
 

QFT. The best explanation I've read.

Re: Secret Passage
 

There is one way around G39 that I can think of that is sorta a gray area: Somehow have a ball feeder that can fit under the low bar (from the opponent's courtyard towards the neutral zone) just enough to push open the flap but no so much as to be touching the carpet of the neutral zone. As you would also be in contact with the outer works, G40 would also be fulfilled. You'd need to also have a good human player who could bowl boulders straight yet powerful enough to consistently get the boulders to roll over the berm and across the neutral zone (presumably doable as per the field tour). The only downside is you would be very vulnerable to a defender parking in the neutral zone to block the shot.

But yes, it is, for now, doable.

(sorta like 469 in 2010, yet like trolling in 2012, risky gray area).

Re: Secret Passage
 

If anyone still has a problem visualizing it, I mocked this up:

Re: Secret Passage
 

Except that if you touch them and there's no other reason to touch them (like going to load up), G11 applies and you get the foul. They have every right to be there, but they cannot make contact with another robot or exit to the Neutral Zone. You have every right to be there, as well, but you can go into the Neutral Zone.

Again, I think that "contact"--when it is being used as a verb, as it is here--generally refers to "initiating contact". If I call you on the phone, are you contacting me? No. I'm contacting you, or getting in contact with you.

I would expect a change to "touching" or "regardless of who initiates contact" depending on what the GDC actually intended here. Either that or there are going to be some questions in Q&A, or some explanations from Head Refs who'd rather not have those discussions because they're busy trying to explain the foul for interfering with crossing a Defense...

Re: Secret Passage
 

The easy reason to touch an offensive robot in the SP is to push them out of the way so you can get to boulders being inbounded.

IMHO, very hard for a defensive bot to get a G11 foul in the SP. There are a lot of non-G11 reasons to be moving in the SP zone.

Worst case, the Ref doesn't call any foul (like the contact happened in the courtyard.

An interesting possibility is if the offensive robot is both in the SP and the Outerworks. The defending bot can't touch an offensive bot in the Outworks, and the offensive bot can't touch a defensive bot in the SP.

Re: Secret Passage
 

The rule is not used quite right here.
The manual says launching is putting the ball in the air.

This does not prohibit you from using an over sized hockey stick to keep the balls on your opponents side of the field. Crossing other boundaries is quite clear that the hockey stick would not be allowed, but it is absent here.

As such this WOULD provide nearly a choke point as you can quickly knock balls into play but their ONE defender would have to take each ball ONE at a time across at least to the neutral zone.

I believe the aim of the contact foul rule (though clarification would help) is to prohibit a squatter from doing just that, but still let them take that risk.

Re: Secret Passage
 

Next time, read the original question. For parking in front of the chute and launching, as originally stated, it's a tech foul per boulder. The Secret Passage is not part of the Courtyard. Clear?

Now, to go to YOUR scenario, do you REALLY think that you can block ALL the entry chutes with a 15" long stick and still be parked outside the Secret Passage the whole time? Nope. You can block one Embrasure and maybe the Brattice. You'll have to enter the Passage to block the other. Also, you run the risk of being ruled as controlling >1 Boulder, AKA a Foul. (A smart HP will be very good at avoiding you, too.)

Re: Secret Passage
 

*grin* Forgot about that one, and I've noticed the GDC has been unusually good at closing the obvious loopholes for this one. Any bets on how TU#1 is going to fix this situation, or will some Q&A pestering be required for TU#2 to address it?

Re: Secret Passage
 

I suspect that it will be made clear that an attacking robot touching a defending robot in its secret passage will always receive a foul no matter which robot initiates contact.

That leaves attackers free to go in and steal boulders but woe be unto him who gets caught by the castle defenders.

Re: Secret Passage
 

So, what you're saying is that if Blue is in Red's passage, and Red initiates contact, Blue gets a foul, regardless. Correct? (Sorry, wasn't quite clear on who would be attacking and defending.)

All I'm going to say on that is that is going to need to be made very clear that it's an exception to G11. Teams that may be trying that strategy aren't going to be happy, but it's a risk they took.

My personal preference would be that Red gets one bump where nobody gets a penalty, after which if Blue doesn't back out, it's a blockading foul on Blue, and if Blue initiates contact it's an automatic penalty.

Re: Secret Passage
 

The way I see it, the secret passage belongs to the defender. Any action that prevents the free movement of a defender (your red team) up or down the passage is a foul on blue since red has the absolute right to have a robot anywhere in the Secret Passage.

That said, if the defenders had 2 robots in the secret passage defending boulders that would be a clear violation of G25 B.

Re: Secret Passage
 

I don't necessarily agree on that one, mind you--I'd consider it situational. For example, 3 robots all attempting to acquire boulders in there would probably be legit--but if one of them moved to block a 4th, then it probably wouldn't be.


I've got a feeling that ref training this year is going to take a while. *gulp*

Re: Secret Passage
 

So this reminds me of 2012 (Rebound Rumble) with how the Alley worked. In Rebound Rumble balls we're fed by human players into field through the Alley, much like the secret passages this year. There was a rule that that stated you could not contact your opponents in their already, however it was much clearer than this year's rule:

and it had a blue box that specified:


G44 being :


In practice it was basically that you could be in your opponent's alley, but if they went in there you better get out as soon as possible because if they touched you, you would get a penalty.


Now a previous year's game rule has no precedence on this year's game, but seeing as that how the GDC has ran the game before, I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they do this year as well.

But the fact that the GDC didn't specifically do that this year, might also mean they had something else in mind for this year's game.

In any case this year's rules needs clarification on that point, and I'd just wait for the Q&A as this will probably be answered and clarified early (maybe even with a post from Frank about it).

Re: Secret Passage
 

A strict interpretation of: G26 (only 1 robot may contact it's own Courtyard) and G21 (robot may not contact defending robot) sort of level the playing field.

An offensive robot ins the SP has to stay away from defending robots.

If there are 3 defending robots in the SP waiting to get a boulder, then only one robot at a time can get a boulder, and use the courtyard to go around the other 2 defenders.

Note: If you design your robot right, you can be "over" the SP by about 2+feet, without being in contact with the carpet of the SP for purposes of rule G21.

Re: Secret Passage
 

Your flags on the Towers are backwards on that drawing (unless those towers have been captured already). Check the videos (both the animation & the Field Videos and the Official Field Drawings Field Layout Plan first sheet. Blue Flag, Blue Standards, Blue Drivers Station/Castle Lights, Blue Secret Passage, Outer/Defense, etc. All on one end, and all red on the other.

The only thing that can/does change is a Captured Tower will flip flag color. But using that drawing is very confusing the issue further concerning G20 (among others).

There appears to be some errors in figures (drawings), in the GAME RULES not yet corrected, and you copied one of those drawings. I'm sure corrections will eventually be made.

Members of Citrus Circuits have good reason to be under stress concerning the confusion (ok, besides being a defending World Champ team attempting a repeat year).

Re: Secret Passage
 

Go watch the videos (including the animation and the official field element vids & the official PLAN DRAWING the 2 are correct.....ALL BLUE on 1 end/ALL RED on the other....Until a single or double TOWER CAPTURE then the Captured Towers flags change only. It will sometimes have 2 red flagged Towers, 2 blue, 1 red/1 blue. But the field ends won't change.

They will always start BLUE/RED.

It is highly confusing and will be until after the first FIRST UPDATES.

Re: Secret Passage
 

Again, your Tower Flags are the wrong color! (Unless both Towers have been Captured already). So sorry.

Re: Secret Passage
 

This discussion has gone farther than the original question with reading the past 5 pages. Yes, launching is illegal still, but pushing the boulder over the 1" divider is not.

We can have hockey stick that is actually much bigger than 15". The frame perimeter max is 120". even with a square frame that is 30" per side. 15" stick/net/pusher/etc. allowed at every side and you're now 60" wide. The passage is 53.5" wide.

Neglecting the contact rules for a moment (since there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus yet). The only thing you would have to watch out for is accidentally controlling more than one boulder.

This is not a true choke hold since you can't take the shots yourself, but until the contact rules are fully understood, you can keep the boulders in play at your opponents side of the field.

Re: Secret Passage
 

If you go into the opposing teams secret passage, can you redirect boulders that the human players put back in without having to go out of the secret passage?

Re: Secret Passage
 

At this point you are simply inventing rules that do not exist. There is nothing in the rules that would prevent an attacking robot from remaining in a Secret Passage, as long as it does not initiate contact with a defending robot.

Re: Secret Passage
 

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS.
Violation: TECH FOUL

That says may not contact, not may not initiate contact.

Re: Secret Passage
 

If the other robot initiates the contact, then it is violating G11:

Thus, there would be no G21 penalty.

Re: Secret Passage
 

You may see it that way, but until you can cite a rule to convince me, I don't see it that way. And guess who wears the yellow and black shirt and gets to make the decision?

And that is the crux of this thread and others - what did the GDC mean by "contact"? Is it active or passive?

Re: Secret Passage
 

If you were right, the attacker could simply park a robot in front of the player station to prevent the defender robot from getting boulders. As long as they're parked a foot from the wall, the defending human player can still enter boulders onto the field so the attacker is not forcing a foul.

I'm sure it will be clarified in a Q&A but the defending robot always has a legitimate reason to be traversing the secret passage. The attacking robot is either there attempting to steal a boulder or blocking free access to the defender or both.

From a gameplay perspective it makes sense that the attacker must get out of the way of the defender.

I think the best you can expect to see is that if the defender initiates contact the attacking robot must immediately make way or suffer a foul. Otherwise attackers will be parking in there and watching for a 5 count by the ref.

Re: Secret Passage
 

I think that this would be probably what's next up. The GDC really doesn't have a whole lot of options here:

--exclude the passage contact rule from G11 entirely (won't happen, as now you've really got a can of worms)
--Clarify that the passage contact rule applies either only to initiating or regardless of initiating
--Add a new rule that if contacted, the attacker needs to be moving out right away (like the "bump-to-pass" in '08)

Personally, I'd go for the third one, but I don't think that'll make life any easier on the refs.

Re: Secret Passage
 

For anyone still following this, the 1st rule update clarified it (caveat - I paraphased parts of it, so look it up yourself to be sure):

Section 3.4.3 General Rules

G11 Blue Box added:

G11 does not apply for strategies consistent with standard gameplay, e.g. a TEAM obtaining a BOULDER from their SECRET PASSAGE, . . . .

Examples include:

A. . . . .

B. . . . .

C. A Red robot is parked completely within the Blue Secret Passage. A Blue robot, attempting to reach the Blue Brattice (the human player station where you put boulders back into play), makes contact with the Red Robot. The Red Robot receives a G21 penalty (making contact inside secret passage). There are no violations of G11 (intentionally causing an opposing side to get a foul) because the Blue robot was trying to access their Brattice and not solely trying to cause the Red robot to violate G21.