Two Boulder Auto
 

Is a two boulder auto viable in this game?

A particularly good robot may be able to cross the defenses, shoot a ball, go back into the neutral zone, grab a second ball, and then cross back into the courtyard and shoot a second time.

However, this rule seems to kind of impede that:
G13 During AUTO, ROBOTS may not enter the volume above the MIDLINE.

If you're not allowed to touch the midline, it seems difficult to grab the balls in the center.
Would a two ball auto still be possible?

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

In theory it is still possible. It would mean you would touch the ball only and not touch the midline. It would be a challenge but it would still be a challenge.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

You can't do two boulder ANYTHING.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I don't think you can carry anymore than one ball at any given time due to rule G38 in section 3.4.9.

3.4.9 BOULDER Rules
G38 ROBOTS may not control more than one (1) BOULDER at any time.
Violation: FOUL per extra BOULDER

Moving or positioning a BOULDER to gain advantage is considered
“control.”
Examples include, but are not limited to:
A. “carrying” (holding BOULDERS inside a ROBOT)

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Or have one of your alliance partners (who cannot shoot) leave their ball for you.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Re-read my post.
I said that you could shoot one boulder, then go back to grab the second one, not possessing both at the same time.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

What Cory is suggesting is that after you score the first boulder, is it possible and/or feasible to go back and get a second boulder and attempt to score it within autonomous - but not holding two at the same time.

*edit: sniped

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

As long as you don't control more than one at a time, you can do it. If I can start with one, score, then come back for another, then it seems like it is legal.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Ignoring the technicality of possibly not being able to grab the ball from the middle, is it even possible to do that much field movement in the given amount of time? Let's say you start essentially touching one of the defenses. Cross the defense in a second or two (minimum for the fastest, which is the low bar). Align and shoot in a few seconds. Work your way back across the obstacle. Find and obtain another ball. Again go across the obstacle, and shoot again.

Unless the stars align perfectly, I doubt this would be possible in the given time even with a very fast chassis.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

We think it can be done and will be trying to do it.

The easiest way would be to have a robot that can fit under the poll with a ball but isn't necessarily the only way.

With a high end swerve, advanced vision, and versatile anti-defense mechanisms we will be trying to do a 2 ball auto. Even if we don't always get 2, scoring one and being back in neutral zone will be a pretty big advantage.

With teams being able to do 3 ball auto and move 2 years ago(us being one of them) and last year teams doing the 3 tote auto plus cans.... not very many but a few teams will be able to do multi ball auto. I can see 2 being realistic but not 3

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Position in front of the Low Bar defense.

1) Run across
2) Shoot
3) Run back
4) Use a venturi vacuum system to attach to the ball on your side of the mid-line and pull it into your robot
5) Run across again
6) Shoot


Good luck

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

more like:

Position in front of the Low Bar defense.

1) Run across
2) aim for goal which has to be precise
3) Shoot
4) realign to run back over defense
5) Run back
6) move sideways/ at angle to align with the ball in middle of field
7) intake ball without crossing mid plane
8) realign and get in position to cross again
9) cross defense again
10) aim for goal second time
11) shoot
12) reposition to get those 2 extra points

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

What's the over/under on the number of bots on Einstein that will do it?

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

This rule will certainly dissuade many many teams from even attempting a 2-ball auto. I don't doubt that some spectacular teams will do a 2-ball auto, but this rule (in my opinion) unnecessarily discourages almost all teams from pursuing it.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

You could also have one bot kick all the mid-line balls over to the low bar for another bot to fire. If any two teams can pull this off they'd ensure a win.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Huh? You're giving all the BOULDERS to your opponents? I'm not sure how that results in a win.

Remember this rule
How are you planning to kick the BOULDER toward your teammates without going over the MIDLINE?

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

3.5

I'll take the over.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I'm not trying to pick on you, but I wish I had a nickle for every comment I've seen on CD saying [X capability] was impossible, but was demonstrated by one or more teams during the season or at Champs. I'm pretty sure the fund would be bigger than my 401K. :yikes:

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

My team had a huge debate today about moving the boulders. You can't carry the boulders? And if you can, when is it considered controlling. And what's considered a "gained advantage?" We are also wondering that if you can't position the boulder, then how do you make any goals at all?

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

G33 Boulders can only be introduced to the field during teleop.
G34 No more than 6 boulders may be in the castle at *any* time. Must immediately introduce excess boulders.

If an alliance does get 4 boulders in auto, the rules say the opposing alliance gets a foul. I don't see this as a violation of G11 as the intent is to score points, not cause a foul on the opponents.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

You can control one bolder at a time. so if you are not carrying a boulder, you can push others around. If you are carrying a boulder you cannot intentionally herd other boulders. Somewhat a judgment call if you are herding or bulldozing. The Referee's judgment, not yours, :]

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

This is a foul

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

As long as you don't enter the midline volume and the boulders just get close to but not cross the defenses, it's legal. You're saving your fast shooter travel time, they'd still have to cross the defenses themselves though.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Although this idea is creative, it is not likely that many teams will succeed(much less try). If somebody does do it though, get it on camera. I want to see that.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I'm not a reliable source of manual info, but I remember seeing that the judging for reaching a defense is to the discretion of the field judge (proper name escaping me atm), and that they are instructed to rule against the team if there is any question of whether you've crossed the defense line or not. I'd assume it's the same for crossing the midline, meaning I'd be hesitant to even get within two inches of it, seeing as you might get ruled against anyways. Seems like too much of a risk to put in the hands of limited sensor fidelity and possible ostables unaccounted for.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I wouldn't eliminate the possibility, we've seen some pretty crazy autos before, and I wouldn't be surprised to see someone show up with something insane by champs. It'll be especially hard with the terrain, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I'd be inclined to say most two boulder autonomous modes come from the spy bot.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

A ref or Head ref if the ref isint sure.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Considering the size of the balls, your margin of error would be several inches. Considering the fact that FRC teams dont have access to any global localization on the field, I can't see any modern sensors allowing that level of precision.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

This. Any team that consistently can pick a ball up from the center will also be consistently at risk of violating G13. There will certainly be teams that do it, but I don't think that enough people are giving this rule the respect it deserves.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

the auto line is pretty close to the midline, if you can detect it with an optical sensor, and slowly advance the robot the necessary amount, you could get right where you need to be.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Disagree entirely. There are teams that have achieved greater levels of precision control in the past, and achieved similarly difficult challenges. Namely, there were a handful of teams capable of retrieving and scoring balls from the side bridges during autonomous in 2012. If mechanical designs permit going underneath the low bar, that's a pretty similar challenge to spy bots scoring a second boulder in autonomous.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

This comparison isn't particularly valid. retrieving balls from the bridges requires only that you be able to reach the bridge and push it down. Depending on your mechanism your margin of error could be as great as three feet.

Maybe youre missing the fact that crossing the midline is a FOUL, and the ball is exactly on the midline. You see the issue? Your margin of error is now literally the radius of the ball.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I'm not missing either of those. Teams at every event each year run autonomous modes with margins of error less than the radius of the game ball this year. The same penalties existed in 2013, and there were teams that retrieved frisbees from the center line.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Two ball auto will happen, from at least one team at every event after week three. Three ball auto from a spy bot will happen at least once this season.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

There was no penalty in 2013 for partially crossing the midline, only completely crossing it. Even the penalties for opposing robot contact were contingent on being completely over the line. Center line auto modes would fight over those discs in the middle, or simply park over them.

I completely agree with you concerning sensor precision, however. This is within the means of FRC teams. The challenge is the 15 second time limit as much as it is precise navigation.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

That violates G38 and G40, unless the midline bot waits until the low bar bot shoots before it kicks the next ball, and unless the low bar bot then crosses into the courtyard and comes back before receiving the next ball.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

It doesn't seem like you remember EITHER of those games. In 2013 you weren't allowed to COMPLETELY cross the line. This means your margin of error is the width of your robot, or most likely the width of your intake, again, several feet.

I've never seen a robot that consistently moved to within +-2 inches in the long axis. If you have an example please share.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I remember both of those games plenty well. Please watch your tone.

The exact specifics of the rules in 2013 vs 2016 differ (obviously), but the intent is largely the same. The margin for error for many teams was rather small, especially when it came to aligning their intake devices. The specific example I had in mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j9ov03mOyA (987)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9fHnHGvM8s (987, gets hit, corrects, still makes shots)

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Good times....

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I apologize that you found offense in my statement, however, I hope you understand that giving two factually incorrect statements in a row gives off a particularly negative impression on one's memory, so I wouldn't say my statement was particularly out of line.

I will reiterate my point once again:

In 2013, the margin of error would be defined by the construction and design of your intake, and the teams that were good enough to go for the mid-line Frisbees also had intakes that would successfully capture Frisbees over their entirety. This left such teams with enough clearance that localization via encoders and IMU would yield error that would not affect intake effectiveness.

In addition, the margin of error for getting a foul was that of your entire robot, which would be several feet, meaning if a team WAS to miss the frisbees, they would not accrue a foul. In 2016, crossing the midline in any way is a foul.

While I would hope Q&A would change this rule to lower the potential risk of going after a second boulder, the rules as they are give a margin of error that is nearly an order of magnitude lower than that of previous years.

Good point, this would give a team a point to relocalize. While I still don't see teams risking a foul for an extra 10 points, I could see teams getting their robot to do this so that it would work often enough to demonstrate.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

It is not hard to drive the alley between the mid-line and outerworks (more than +/- 2" leaway. Using vision, you can then accurately line up with the ball and approach it perpendicular to the mid-line. That is your best chance to be able to get the ball without crossing the mid-line.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I don't think the accuracy will be the downfall. Accuracy isn't beyond any of our teams. ie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N995FopDHgU

I do wonder how many fouls will be racked up before the 2 boulder auto will be dialed in. Not sure it is going to be worth the potential fouls or not.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

A question for everyone and maybe it's already understood from previous years. (Year 2 for me)

Is the robots dimensions defined by the frame perimeter? (Meaning in light of this thread:) if my intake mechanism is 14 in outside of my perimeter is that part considered my ROBOT? Could the mechanism extend over the midline to grab the second ball in a two ball auto? If so would that be considered a violation of the rule as long as my frame perimeter did not cross the midline?

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Another question. Wouldn't it be worth it to get the 2nd ball in auto even if it was a foul?

If you hit both shots that is 10 points per ball. The foul costs you 5. But you gain the extra time by knocking down tower strength another notch....

Just thinking

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

_____________

My Prediction: (For what it is worth).

Teams of the caliber of 254, 987, 1114 Et al who have access to full field setups at home among a few others I can think of, and have perfected the vision positioning and ball (or tubes for that matter, as far back as 987's 3 tube auto in 2011, as they picked up a tube leaning against our bot without moving our bot even 1/8" in Las Vegas perfectly & repeatedly without fail even once), item /robot seeking/locating already down pat as demonstrated repeatedly in prior years (with plenty of practice time of course), I fully predict now....Will be absolute champs at returning to the neutral zone and plucking or vacuuming, etc. those balls 1 at a time off the rings on the midline without fouling and will do so until there is absolutely no more time left on the clock in the auto period by their very first competition event.

The repeated risk is worth the reward, as it should earn that all coveted Q position #1 spot and Alliance #1 Captain slot.

Those are teams to which the words "You Can't Possibly Do That...It's just too risky" have absolutely no meaning whatsoever in life....That is why they are "Powerhouse and Championship Caliber Teams!"

Now, if one wishes to defend against that type of absolute wonderment, you must be willing to be a really lousy alliance partner(s) (not recommended by this party BTW), and return your robot, after crossing and making your auto shot, back to the neutral zone yourself (or the easiest path back), and block that killer robot's path to the ammunition of more boulders they need to pull off their magic. (Of course that action would be deemed foolish, pretty self destructive, and not very GP).

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N995FopDHgU

That is beyond simple accuracy....That shot was amazing! WOW! (That wasn't targeted by joystick I don't believe...Was it?)
__________________
Not that many months ago I said personally (while at CMP), that under the 2015 rules, it was impossible to bring in to CMP a bagged robot you built to compete with, tear it completely apart, build an entirely new bot from the ground up using strictly COTS and raw stock carried in at load-in and only the withholding allowance of pre-fabricated parts , get it to pass inspection (I am sure the inspectors kept a good eye out that the rules were followed and fully trust they did so), use 4 freaking harpoons to snatch the 4 cans with, and then appear on Einstein in just 3 days from their starting point or less....But I have a copy of the video proving they could and did absolutely do so. (If only we had the chance on-field to see that masterpiece in action instead of on the sidelines).

Team 2959....That video now sits in a folder right beside that other totally unbelievable harpoon can snatching video...Well done folks!

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

It was by joystick. Our driver (who is a mentor this year) was showing off. It did take him like 3 tries to be fair, but we utilized a camera with crosshairs that year. He was able to repeat the feat a few times that day too. That was after all the off season events too so the robot had a lot of battle scars.

We are looking to repeat that kind of accuracy this year. :D

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

This is a question that can only be answered by the Q&A, however, it is often interpreted that anything that is connected to the robot is the "robot".
That being said, I can think of a variety of pickups that could move the rock without crossing the midline volume.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Neither of my statements was factually incorrect. Please read what I wrote, and not what you think I wrote.

Watch the videos of 987 I posted. Their intake was located along the narrow end of their robot, meaning the margin for error was only a couple inches for acquisition. As a result, it meant they had to center their long axis of the robot exactly on the center line as they drove backwards (which is the accuracy you were questioning in your previous post), as they need their intake centered after they rotate. They then had to rotate, and drive a precise distance down the line to acquire the Frisbees, but not overshoot the required positioning to make it back to their starting location without contacting the pyramid (or other robots) in time to fire the newly acquired Frisbees. They executed multiple maneuvers within their autonomous routine that contained the same degree of precision than you're stating is impossible in this years' challenge. That is far from the only example of such precision in autonomous.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

There is the question, "Can it be done?"

and there is the question, "Should we try to do it?"

The answers might be different for different teams.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Truth!

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Coming from a team that usually makes a goal out of capitalizing on auto (2006 shooting auto, 9 auto lines in 2008, 3-5 ball auto in 2010, two-tube auto in 2011, center or corner bridge auto in 2012, two-ball auto in 2014, 3-tote auto in 2015), we're very impressed with the difficulty of coordinating a multi-ball auto this year.

The obvious route; get a ball from the center line would be difficult without the mid-line rule... it becomes astonishingly difficult with it (I'm sure a literal handfull of teams will have one).

The secondary route (achieved four obvious ways) is probably less technically difficult, but requires coordination to get the extra balls from your partner(s)... and only helps if one or both of your partners can't score the ball high in auto (common early on, but some DCMP or CMP alliances may have three High Goal autos).

1. Spybot passes its ball to a HG shooter after it scores its first ball from the courtyard.
2. Spybot receives ball from a partner that passes ball, after the Spybot has shot its first ball.
3. Neutral Zone bot drives into Courtyard, scores, and then comes back for a partner to pass a second ball, then returns to Courtyard and shoots.
4. Neutral Zone bot drives into Courtyard and scores first ball, meanwhile partner(s) pass a second (and third?) ball to scoring bot, who must sequentially score those.

My gut is that these will also be very rare though, since they require partner coordination and may compromise other potential auto modes that would better prepare the alliance to 'hit the ground running' in teleop (such as preparing to defeat other defenses and/or gather the midline balls).

I suspect that an ordinary, reliable HG or LG auto will probably be about as rare (maybe somewhat less so?) as 2-ball autos were in 2014... it's non-trivial to defeat a Defense AND know where you are well enough (or use auto-targeting well enough) to make the shot reliably.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9PvIsZL4cg

Nuff said in that video alone...So can I Al. "Multi-Auto Boulder Game Will Be Confirmed!" (Unless of course the GDC says it isn't so).

If there is a will, and a will to take the risk if paying rewards exist, there is always a way to succeed.

While last years 2015 Recycle Rush rules have nothing to do with 2016 Stronghold Rules or Game...It's Already proven by last years multi-string wire/cable connected units, that anything connected to a robot is considered 1 robot (Unless of course it is someone else's robot that just reached inside your frame perimeter). Technical FOUL! (Batman, Robin & Alfred come immediately to mind...And I'm not talking about the foul part).

Robot defined by the 2016 Stronghold Game Rules:

"ROBOT an electromechanical assembly built by an FIRST Robotics Competition Team to perform specific tasks when competing in FIRST STRONGHOLD. It includes all of the basic systems required to be an active participant in the game: power, communications, control, and movement. The implementation must obviously follow a design approach intended to play FIRST STRONGHOLD (e.g. a box of unassembled parts placed on the FIELD or a ROBOT designed to play a different game would not satisfy this definition)"
_______________
That manipulator is attached to that robot & is a part of that assembly isn't it? Is it performing a task for that ROBOT? If so, then it cannot enter the volume above that midline during Auto according to G13: (Got to just love the unlucky numbering of that rule if 1 tends to be even a wee bit superstitous! LOL.)

Woe is to those poor daring souls who tempt fate & risk it all to perform above and beyond in the Auto mission, and do fail (by entering that forbidden zone, or worse, enters it and touches an opposing robot on the other side at the same time), by points added to the opposing Alliance.

Yes the risks are huuuuge! And the rewards are great. (Huh, WHAAAAAT!?...It isn't a TECH Foul though?? Just a simple Foul, and a further robot touch an additional simple Foul? you suffer 2 penalties=Net zero if you make the shot? And you don't even lose the resulting shot if made.....WOW!

Do the math. Auto Boulder worth 10 Points Each in Top Goal....Foul adds how many points to the opponents score? You say 5 points =Net gain, loss or tie? Risk vs. Rewards....Boulders on Midline value in Auto 2016 = Original Litter value in 2015?). I'LL TAKE ALL 6 PLEASE...One perfectly placed boulder at a time. Math is SOO GOOOOOOD.

I can already hear some begging, "errr lobbying" heavily next week, for the Auto Period to be increased with 6 available boulders out there on the oh, so dangerous MIDLINE. The math and the risk takers thinking outside the box just demands it!

Hint: Now, if you know someone is going for a multi-boulder auto, and you are on the opposing alliance and are NOT, a better strategy would be to simply add a delay of time to your auto mode programming of any possible movements toward crossing and shooting or delivering until a wee bit later (rather than earlier in the auto period). Nothing anti-GP about making the risks greater for the opponent by doing absolutely nothing for a wee bit longer. Just to watch em' sweat, of course still attempting and making yours, just not as early in the period.

3.4.4 AUTO Rules

G13 During AUTO, ROBOTS may not enter the volume above the MIDLINE. Violation: FOUL. If contact is made with an opponent ROBOT beyond the MIDLINE, an additional FOUL is assessed and the opponent ROBOT is immediately awarded the CROSSING of the closest DEFENSE from the point of contact.

MIDLINE DEFINED:

MIDLINE a line of 2 in. white gaffers tape that bisects the length of the FIELD
_______________________


The hunt to copy and quote of which leads to another question:

Saw the following (asking the question based on the exact terminology used in the rule, not attempting to lawyer it, just was curious on the exact wording and curious as to the answer that would be given by the GDC if asked). For just discussion, what say the parties here on CD?

G26 At any given time, only one (1) ROBOT may contact the carpet or BATTER inside their COURTYARD. Violation: FOUL. For every five (5) seconds in which the situation is not corrected, TECH FOUL

The question: (Given that they are talking about say Blue Alliance entering their own COURTYARD to play defense and defend their Tower and Castle against the dastardly attacking RED Alliance, and not the other Courtyard of The Dastardly Red Alliance, The Blue Alliance are actually attacking...Or, vice versa).

Does that actually mean that 1 Blue Robot could be on the BATTER of The Blue Tower, and 1 Blue Robot could be on the carpet of the Blue Courtyard at the same exact time, as long as they do not actually both occupy (contact), either The Batter or The Carpet at the same exact time? (Otherwise, they could have just written the rule as simply "Only 1 Robot can enter or occupy their own Courtyard at a time to defend or play defense against the attacking alliance" or the addition of 1 word "either" between the words "contact" & "the"). Since you cannot get to the Batter without entering the Courtyard.

Just more food for thought.

It would be quite easy to play tag team (one parked on the batter in front of a low goal & one on the carpet running circles around an attacking bot in active defense). You couldn't tag team Batter to Carpet, Carpet to Batter (as that would require both bots at some point (contacting), batter or carpet at the same time...But, you could Courtyard to Secret Passage, Batter to Courtyard Carpet, and back to Batter/Courtyard. Either way 2 bots would still be in their own Courtyard at the same time playing defense against an attacking alliance.

Only the GDC knows the answer. But, someone actually playing the game would have to ask the question(s). (The use of the word "or" in both letter & spirit of the rule may just mean simply the same as "either." Or, it may not.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Oh so true.

But for those capable...The math simply demands it. Even with 2 penalties suffered, as long as you make it High Tower Auto Goal there is a net zero for the attempt. 1 penalty suffered you still gain net 5 points, no penalties 10 points, each attempt.

_______________

Added: ".......The answers might be different for different teams.[/quote]"

Well, when it comes to Harpoon Type Can snatchers...It certainly depends on who is standing just a couple of feet away on the sidelines!

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

It is viable, you would have to start in front of the low bar or be able to precisely scale/cross another defense, drive forwards, shoot, come back, pick up the ball on the middle line in front of said obstacle, drive back to the shooting position, and shoot again. It is all possible if you have a fast robot with very precise and accurate movement and shooting capabilities, however it would be very close on time.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Hail Fellow. I greet thee!

While I definitely do not expect to see many teams do a 2 boulder auto - it will be extremely hard in 15 seconds - I also don't think it is quite as impossible as you make it out to be to get a boulder off the midline without obtaining a foul. Consider this scenario which I do believe is all perfectly legal.

Robot is placed on the field at the back edge of the auto zone, ~12 inches from the midline, preloaded with 1 boulder.

Auto starts.

Robot sets their boulder down in the auto zone, so they no longer control any boulders.

Robot lowers a roller arm intake mechanism toward midline. The team strategically placed their robot on the field so that the intake will contact the midline boulder without crossing the midline.

In this scenario, the robot has not driven one inch, and they have a boulder off the midline. The rest is obvious - cross defense, shoot, return to auto, collect the boulder that was set down, cross defense a second time, shoot.

I'm not saying this is easy!! But that is mostly because of the time limit, not because of the midline foul risk.

Godspeed on your quest.

- Steve

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I went through the weekend thinking about 2 ball auto, and not seeing a way to do it. After seeing this thread, if you accept the 5 point foul, it would be possible for a 2 ball auto. It comes down to cycle time, move faster or move less. I can imagine some designs that would work, but it's not an easy undertaking.

We'll see what our students come up with and they want to do. If for nothing else, it's a nice exercise to see what's possible.

Thanks for inspiration to challenge my view of what possible.

Brian

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

______________________________
Or, start in the Spybot position, shoot/score, crossover an easy Defense (Sally Port and Drawbridge would be easiest to exit the Courtyard (if avail.), unless your bot is less than 16" high which is the height of that Low Bar Defense). Get and load Boulder go back across shoot & score (rinse and repeat until 15 seconds are up).

**And if the Drawing at 1.2 Introduction (labeled Figure 1-1: FIRST STRONGHOLD Arena), is correct as I suspect it is, after seeing the vid's and other official docs.

And, if you read G20 in the literal sense. Then, you cannot go from the Courtyard you are attacking through the Secret Passageway & directly back to the Neutral Zone at any time. That is "your opponents secret passage." Unlike the 2-2 Figure appearance, wherein it looks like that is your secret passage if you look at the flag colors.

This would make you only go back and forth (while attacking at least), between the Courtyard and Neutral Zone via crossing the Defense structures of the opponents Outer Works you are attacking and attempting to Breach.

This does make it a whole lot harder to do the repeated multi-boulder auto attempt (instead of going through what appeared to be by all of the direct overhead field illustrations like Figure 2-2: Zones & Markings, Figure 2-4: OUTER WORKS DEFENSE Placement, among others (that appear to have the flags reversed in all of the direct overhead views), and made it easily appear that you could legally (w/ the G50 Rule), just make a clockwise legal circular driving motion of Neutral Zone, over the opponents Outer Works/Defenses into the opponents Courtyard, attack the opponents Tower, exit the opponents Courtyard to YOUR SECRET PASSAGE -just going twice over that much lower only 1" high X 3" wide metal strip, then back into the neutral zone, snatching 1 ball at a time by plucking it off the line, and keep making that circle repeatedly pretty much without interference, as long as your alliance partners knew what you were attempting to do in auto, and stayed out of your way after their attempts.

3.4.6 ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction

G20 ROBOTS may only enter or exit their opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE from/to the opponent’s COURTYARD. A ROBOT is considered to be within the SECRET PASSAGE once the only carpet the ROBOT is in contact with is the carpet inside the SECRET PASSAGE. Violation: FOUL. If repeated, TECH FOUL

Emphasis mine.
****This makes the entire game that much more difficult to say the very least. Most people will easily parse the game and strategize on an overhead field view like Figure 2-2 more so, than to do so, on an angled far off view like Figure 1-1.

I could not figure out why I was getting a headache on the first read through the rules on Saturday morning (when I was switching back and forth between vids and the rules in PDF format on my laptop (later on I was reading them in a BW printed copy instead of color, and I thought it was just the flipped opposite field ends and that is why it wasn't making any sense (I just could not visualize what was making me so uncomfortable and I just couldn't understand why, thought I was just tired (the action actually gave me a headache trying to make sense of that field and the confusing aspects).

No, it was that the direct overhead drawings were all screwy due to the reversed flag colors, that made it appear the secret passages were Red w/ Blue Castle & Blue w/Red Castle instead of the much more proper Blue one side of field/Red on the other and only the attacking robots flipped to the opposite side of the field as attackers, and the much more natural human players w/ drive teams, and Spies on the far side, away from their natural and associated drive teams actually spying.

I'll still say the attempts will still be there from the usual teams, but it won't be as easy as I thought it would be earlier without that easier faster clockwise driving allowance.

It now appears like exiting from opponents Secret Passage to The Neutral Zone earns you a Foul and if you repeat the action it would be a TECH Foul also. (While G20 is 2 complete sentences, it is one section ending with the violation and penalties for violating, but, specific to G20 only, you cannot violate the 2nd sentence as it is descriptive only & not actionable to you, you can only violate the first sentence - Highly descriptive/very limiting/easily violated/& highly actionable). Anyone else read it that way too?

****Yes, I also realize there are other rules that also follow concerning the Secret Passage and Robot Interaction that follow....But, those have different meanings/violations/penalties.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

This is the only way I see teams doing this consistently, just taking the foul and going for the 27 pt autonomous.

Although some users have already shown that there are in fact some limited markers on the field to localize on (the auto line specifically would be my go-to when I see if my team wants to attempt this) and remove accumulated error. I could see a team or two using these and getting right up against the midline now.

0-32 in 15 seconds doesnt have quite the same ring to it though :(

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

We spent some time thinking on this and are skeptical as to whether or not even top teams will be able to score both boulders consistently enough to overcome the potential of a penalty.

* Teams trying this will have to have multiple routines prepared and be able to breech several different defenses during auto as there is no guarantee that the "ideal" defense will be set up for you. At higher levels, teams can anticipate that the "wrong" defense will always be in place. In other words, unless you can either easily damage all 8 defenses (not low bar), or drive to your preferred defense without bumping into alliance members, it will be nothing more than a cutesy thing to show off once in a blue moon.

* Even with the "ideal" defensive set up, the potential for the defenses to through you off by an few inches is very, very high. You'll need very good vision-tracking that can quickly re-align the robot.

* Relative to the size of the boulders, the tower windows are small. Accuracy is going to be imperative.

* Because the additional boulders are on the mid-line (which you cannot cross at all), your acquisition devise must be able to take the boulder by grabbing it an inch short of the center. Very possible. However, if the robot should (after crossing a defense, shooting and returning) be off by so much as an inch, the risk of a penalty is very high.

* If you cannot score the second boulder more than half as often as you commit the penalty, it's a losing proposition.

So, it looks like that second boulder during auto is possible -but far more difficult than things like the three-tote auto we did well last year - with much less potential for reward. We decided we were not willing to put forth the amount of time it would likely take to perfect such a stunt... We believe that we can get much more "bang for the buck" by perfecting other attributes.

Will somebody do it? Yup. Will it have warranted the effort to make it work (scoring benefit v. time to develop and implement)? I doubt it. Of course, I am pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong about something every year in FRC....

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

There are two factors that teams have to master for this to happen.

1. Accurate driving. There are several steps with this, so if you will have drive with sensors providing feedback.

2. A highly accurate high goal shooter.

If you build that in your robot, then you can think about it. If you're that good at auto driving and shooting, you might be able to give it a try. If your close success, and are doing really well in matches (read winning with big margins), you might give up 5 points to keep flushing out the bugs since it won't affect your results.

So, build your best bot. If you satisfy the above, give it a shot. BUT, don't let 2 boulder auto drive your design.

Brian

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

_______________________
You too Steve,

Now, I envisioned a much different path and method "when I mistakenly thought that circular path through the Secret Passageway was possible and legal" (MY OPINION ONLY UNTIL THERE IS A Q&A & AN UPDATE FROM FIRST/GDC)....Straight through shoot high / or Spybot corner shoot high On the second pass (to get Boulder 2), down the Secret Passageway to the end (half way out into the Neutral Zone-Turn 90 degrees right, drive forward (Parallel to the 6 balls and that Midline), extend out left side about 12" in front of bumper with a plucker that hits the top right 1/3 of the hemisphere of the ball (a few inches away from the Midline tape edge, and draws it to the right on a roll toward the robot path, as you drive slowly by using ball location w/ vision sensing, it rolls right in front of your robot and perfectly in front of your boulder collector into bot, 90 degree turn through the next easily traversable Defense (backing up straight if necessary before the turn), vision target location shooting to closest upper goal after reaching the Courtyard carpet to 11' away. Shoot & Score #2, how much time is left on the clock? Wanna try for 3?

15 seconds is a long time since most will be shooting high from at least 11' from the Tower to reach upper goal. (3 goal openings at 3 different angles, no hot seeking, etc.)

Though I understand now that easy ride is over since the Secret Passageway is out. G20 and proper field drawings view makes a huge difference.

The math still says to try it when you look at risk vs reward. You can foul, & make the upper shot, and still end up net positive 5 points.

Tell me I can buy a Powerball ticket tonight, lose Wednesday night by getting none of the numbers, but I still get half the money Thursday. And I never play that sucker bet & I mean ever (though I'll sit and play poker with anyone, so I'm a gambler. But, lotto isn't gambling, it is a tax on poor people regularly wishing on rainbows)....OK, until it goes over that magic # - 1.3 BILLION w/ a "B". Now that's a NET POSITIVE. (Lose a lil' vs. a chance on a BILLION PLUS-I'm buying now because that risk vs. reward just went huge). BTW, I did not play Saturday when it was $800+ Million$$$$$. Wifey had $2.00 in the office pool though, and they won $2.00....again.

Very worse case scenario: You have 1 down High Goal =10 points in the bag, you attempt 2nd, you miss really bad & go over the line, and run into a robot on the other side of the line (you may or may not have any robots over there at all by that time to hit...Who knows!?)

But, you just suffered the absolute biggest crash in all of FRC Robotics save for the "Backwards line crossing from the get go all the way across the field in Auto because a robot was placed backwards, or code really entered wrong, or motors plugged in backwards", (AND WE HAVE ALL SEEN A FEW OF THOSE OVER THE YEARS).....You still are no better off than taking only a 1 single Boulder Auto shot chance, and simply and sadly missing. Or worse, it goes in hits the chains and bounces out.

Score zero, net zero. You cross the line (foul), but make the shot 1.5 times the score net (3 times the tele value net). But, you make it no fouls and high goal you cash in 2.0 times (but that is also 2 X the tele score X 2 a huge net gain that boulder is. And that extra one in Auto is actually worth the value of (wiping out equal to receiving 2 Tech Fouls as far as Power/Damage to Tower). There are a lot of chances of incurring Tech fouls in this particular game....But the second auto shot isn't 1 of them. (Worse case-2 Regular Fouls net points wise, equal 1 Upper Auto Score).

Tell me another time in this game (FRC), that you can possibly take a large risk, possibly screw up so freaking bad, and pay for it so little? Screw up a lil' and still have a good degree of chance to get a net positive, and or possibly succeed repeatedly, and score double (6~10 matches later it all adds up to real points)....And, it still isn't worth the risk?

Then, I suggest we all start thinking about another game to play as this one is really expensive, if you don't grab the brass ring, at least when the math leans chances net positive toward you, since usually it leans waaaay the other way.

IE: 600/3000 plus chance of going to CMP the day of paying our initial reg. fees, and it all goes downhill from there competition wise (and that is 33% better now than it was just 2 yrs. ago)...But, it is so much fun and it isn't all about the robots, it is about changing lives, and accomplishing the seemingly impossible!

That last comment (about finding another game), wasn't directed toward any person/team directly, nor FIRST, but just an "in general opinion comment." (So please don't anyone take it personally).

Sorry, I'll quit selling and step off the soapbox.....I'm just trying to rally the FRC Kingdom and help make it much louder.

Build Your Champion...Rally Your Kingdom.....But, Let's All Do It Together!

Do it for David Bowie.....RIP (Dooont do doo dut dooont....Put on you red shoes and....dance the blues!)

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I'd say that level of precision and driving that distance has been shown before.

Not sure anyone is around that still remembers this, but we scored 2 tubes in autonomous in around 12 seconds here back in 2007 (Old camera tech took ~3s to lock on to the target as the rack was moved between matches).

In an offseason match:
910 Double Keeper at ARC

In an offseason practice match:
910 double keeper at marc

Returning very accurately to a known position is easy with wheel encoders as long as you don't slip (the hard part). Considering the best high shooters will probably be able to make a 20 ft shot, they wont even have to drive more than 10 ft (x3) even at a slow 5 ft/s the driving ony takes 6 seconds. 9 s seems like enough time for decelerating, gathering, and shooting two balls.

Now I wont be so bold as to say it will happen all the time, but I think we will see it before the season is out.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I'd guess that <=5 teams will solve it at Worlds

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

OK, my last post in this thread for now. With all the "not going to happen much or often this year" responses in the thread, I realized something. (Not that I didn't already know it, but I have to let them know it, and address it out loud).

Team 987 HighRollers and a few others, thank you for being only 2+ Hours or so away from us and allowing our around a long time low #, but small rural community combined 3 H.S.'s team to play both with you (not often enough, & not since 2011), and against you (way too often), year in, and year out, and for making us work so bloody hard to even attempt to compete with, and against you (and your friends...Yes pointing at Team 148), annually, at least once. They are the powerhouse team that we play with / against on a regular basis...actually we won LV Reg. with them in 2011 my very first event as a mentor w/ the team, and my youngest Son's First FIRST Reg. Win in 2011 so I'm pretty partial to their competitiveness both local and international...They make our team dig deep and sometimes we actually rise to the occasion these days...and sometimes we reach and fail miserably, but we still reach.

If you had the pleasure last year, of playing w/ (against either of), those 2 teams and their friends (Their 4 bots against Your 3, then you know what I mean), had more than it's outwardly & apparently known and seen disadvantages as the 148/987 drive team(s) relationship was very special & quite evident (2nd Regional they had played together in less than a month (The also won Dallas Reg.), and 987 could (and did), use 148's Robin Tote Stacker Bot just as well as 148's Batman could by then). First ones in RR that I saw that cleared the entire Tote field & backfield except the Totes that were upside down & against the front of the shelf. No litter, no totes just that 1 lonely empty litter container sitting in the backfield all by itself, nearly solid tote walls on the field.

They (987/148/Friends & Robin), together won their 2nd Regional of the year, but our Alliance didn't go down easily, and all 6 teams went to CMP's ours on-Carson 2015 (due to either Awards or Wild Cards)-I got to witness 987's rise at CMP's first hand on Hopper as an Official Scorer (then on to Einstein as 2015 Championship Finalists, & Championship Subdivision Winners).

But our team is better for the challenge they always are, and create.

I personally have only been with the (our), team in 6th year now, but have never seen an auto period, that they (987), have not fully "gone all-in for", and pushed all their chips to the middle of the table and gone for all the auto points possible. They show us that it isn't impossible...Year in, year out. And, we always have to work that much harder, whether playing with them, or playing against them.

But we never miss a chance to go to their home city and play in the Las Vegas Regionals. It's sad that we are not going to be at AZ West Regional again at GC Univ. this year for your 3rd. Regional (LA Reg. LB, CA -Wk. 2, LV, NV Reg.-Wk. 5, & AZ West Reg.-Wk. 6, as we chose the AZ North Regional (Wk. 2) & the Las Vegas Regional (Wk. 5)-The 2 closest to home).

Some of our other friends in AZ that don't get to often go to the LV Reg. can get to have some fun with you for a change at GC Univ. and we'll see you in Week 5.

The AZ, CA, UT, NM, and CO teams among others that I would have to thank that inspire the Lowest # FRC team in the State of AZ in one way or another to produce over the years, would take a whole other posting as we have played with & against almost every team in the State and a many more than a few from outside of it, at 1 time or another over the years.

Some day before I die (and I'm going to stick around until it happens...I'm stubborn as can be), we'll play with, instead of against de Famous Chezy Poofs (254)...We got closer last year by finally both being in Carson this last year (G.W. told me that was extremely rare over the years...usually we were always in a different Div.), but alas we finally were chosen for the same Division & didn't get to play even 1 match with, but did play against each other in the Div. Quarters...Some day I say.

At least it was the 1 match on Carson I did get to see all week. Thanks to all those teams that inspire, and go above and beyond always reaching for the stars. Believe...2 will be doable.:D

Count on it.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I'm not sure why you guys are so worried about fouls. A foul is 5 points and successfully scoring the ball in auto is 10 points.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

For those urging to "take the foul", remember that repeated fouling can result in a yellow card for egregious behavior. The yellow card doesn't have to be specifically linked to a rule that specifies a yellow card for the violation.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

I can't think of any scenario in which slightly overlapping the center line to grab a ball during autonomous could ever be considered "egregious" behavior. Maybe that's why I'm not a head referee yet...

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

See bolded.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

Question about repeated. In a match or in the competition? Since you're only committing the foul once per match.

Brian

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

"Repeated" can be for either. If a team is repeatedly committing a foul in order to score the extra auto point, they can be given the yellow - especially if it is deemed intentional. It's a rule and we should strive to obey it...

Attempting to get the ball without breaking the rule is certainly fine... You just had better be good enough at it that 1) Your success rate overcome any fouls you might commit and 2) You don't get carded.

Re: Two Boulder Auto
 

my question is not if a team will do 2 but if a team will do 3...