Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Our team is thinking about the benefits of making universal signals for the spies. If anyone has any useful spy signals please comment below.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Just some quick thoughts

Hand to left: move to left
hand to right: move to right
Hands towards driver station: drive back
Hands up: drive forward
Arms to both left and right: You're good

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

We have a few members/mentors who know ASL and are thinking of making a universal FIRST Stronghold ASL Dictionary just for this.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I'd consider adapting hand signals used in rigging and crane operation. It may give a nice place to start.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Wouldn't that defeat the perpose of it being a spy

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I think this will have to evolve. Start a list here of what things should be signaled.

1. Boulder locations (One fist raised, other hand pointing to location)
2. Defensive robot location (hand open, palm facing drivers, other hand pointing at location of defensive robot)
3. Move away from spy (two hands pushing robot away from spy, palms facing robot)
4. Move closer from spy (two hands pulling robot away to spy, palms facing spy)

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

The difficulty with having specialized spy signals per team is that only one spy is in the spy box (from what I have read), so by having team-centralized spy signals, the spy will only be able to provide input to one of the offensive teams.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Couldn't It just Be:

2 hands up = Forward
2 hands left = Turn Left
2 hands Right = Turn Right
2 hands Down = Back Up
1 hand left; 1 hand right = Good

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I love your idea, T. Curtis.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

spys have codes though. Anyways, there are bound to be teams that dont browse CD and will never see this...

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I believe a universal hand signal is a simple yet great way for both sides to succeed.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Look, it's not like it's productive at all to scream directions down the court. This idea is something that will definitely speed up communication. Now even if it isn't a universal signal, being able to read your own spy's means you can translate for your alliance anyway. It's a solid idea either way.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I love that forward thinking you have.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Universal hand signals would be able to help your alliance maximize your score since not every team can have their own spy. In the spirit of Gracious Professionalism, this would benefit all teams, and opposing alliances would most likely not try to cheat this system because they will be preoccupied with their own robots.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

im not liking this whole hand signal idea

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

you don't have to, but if there becomes a standard set of signals, you may get some advantage from using them.

What's not to like?

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

A universal code is great, because it allows any alliance robot on your side to know what's going on. It won't help opponents, because they can already see what's going on, so that won't hurt much.

Here's the list of things that should be discernible:

•which way to move: a MUST. Without this, the spy is worthless.

•when your good and can fire/perform function: Also a must. I also suggest for some tasks, teams try to line up with guide lines so that spies can tell it when it's good for firing.

•What robot your talking to: of there are two robotics in the opponent's courtyard, then you need to be able to say which one your talking too. Otherwise, confusion will occur.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

@Chito

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

i like that jackson guy

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Post productive things, not whatever was before the image and the image itself, this does nothing but clutters the thread with useless replies.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

The think is, it doesn't matter if your opponent knows your code, everything that the spy is telling you is rate in front of their faces. they arn't learning anything from your spy that they don't already know/see.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

woah u dont talk to muh man jackson like that. calm down man

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

The idea of hand signals is to relay info that the drive team may not be able to see (for example making sure the bot is lined up properly to shoot)

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

https://www.google.com/search?q=fusi...l7kMP_jrNYM%3A

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

U AR RITE. HADN SNGLS R D BST.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Is there anything in the rules against the spy holding up a big sign with an arrow on it? He/she would just have to rotate it in the right direction, and there would be almost no miscommunication.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

My idea for this would be to have three colored cards. Red = team 1, white = team 2, blue = team 3. With one hand, hold the corresponding card, with the other some sort of signal.

Teams are going to have to do a lot of communicating with partners on what signals should be used.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

what about the old semaphore flag signals armies used to use? most commonly the flags formed specific letters, but I know armies in the civil war used them to direct the movement of specific divisions.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Is the hand signals really that important since almost every robot has a camera or cameras to give visual aid to the drive team?:confused:

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

While that is a possibility, A) You can only see so much through a camera pointed in one direction, and B) Some teams may not be capable of getting a camera working.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

This may be a bad idea because:

Refs use the red card and this may confuse the field techs and the refs.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I was just planning on making my HP learn flag semaphore.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

That is a valid point. In that case I would either use a different color, or use a card/board that is unmistakably larger than that of the referees.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

True, it could get really confusing and ref might disqualify you

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Where did you hear that almost every robot has a camera?

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I'm pretty sure no top robot last year had a camera...

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I think some universal hand signals would be a great way for teams to collaborate! (Something à la Noodle Agreement except not a loophole that can be plugged).
My first thought was to use basic ASL (I've been trying to learn it lately haha so it's kinda on the front of my mind) or if people didn't want to learn actualy ASL we could just use letters for signs (eg. 'f' for forward, 'b' for backwards, 's' for stop) since most of them are different enough that they can probably be differentiated from a decent distance.
Semaphore would be an awesome choice too especially since it was made to be seen from a distance, but I will say that hand signals might be easier for the spy just because sudden changes (best example I can think of is if a robot suddenly tries to run into/block/etc you) might take longer to communicate with full-body signals than with hand signals.
It would be cool to turn the final decision into a document or something that we could print out and have at the driver stations and stuff as a just-in-case reference

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Would a full length mirror (that would fit in the spy box along with the human player) be allowed in the game? It's not an electronic control device, and the human player could rotate the mirror to give their alliance a view of the field.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I would probably rule that to be a violation of 5.5.9, due to the high possibility of some robot getting confused by seeing a target in it.

Also, just for reference with the ASL suggestion: Think bigger. You're communicating 40' or so past obstacles. Try semaphore, colored gloves, you get the idea. 5.5.9B seems to be a good idea to to look at...

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

My team has also been working on a dictionary. We've based all of our signs in generic ASL while substituting in words that don't have direct translations. (i.e rampart becomes ramp, drawbridge becomes bridge, chevalier de druse becomes seesaw, etc.)

We've been making a Google Doc that I might be able to share in this thread. However, I'm on my phone right now so I can't find the proper link.

Someone in my group also suggested gloves of some sort. What they suggested was something along the lines of an orange thumb and blue fingers or the reverse (I don't remember exactly). The different colors generally help with seeing signs from longer distances as well as differentiating between similar signs (like m and n).

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I suspect 5.5.9 will be changed to disallow special equipment both in the CASTLE and the SPY BOX.

Back to hand/arm signals. Special colored items or flags would fail point F. vi.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I'd like to put two cents in for making arm motions vs hand motions. Arm motions will be easier to see by the drivers. But, they will also be easy to see by people in the stands. That will allow spectators to get a better glimpse into the game.

Having Universal Spy signals are good. It can be printed on a card and given to teams (and spectators!!) that don't hang out on CD. That way the drive team can learn it and be ready for the matches.

I'm hoping that we'll be able to get to a common format, I'd hate to get to an event and learn that there are 4 or 5 different arm motions that teams need to learn. "Wait, so the hand on head isn't ..... ?!?" isn't something to learn after a match loss.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

The first step is figuring out what to communicate.

Robots need cameras to help with shooting.also a spy isn't helpful helping an unknown robot shoot.

What is helpful to telli:

1) where is a loose Boulder
2) is a defending bot is going after an alliance bot, and which one
3) how an alliance member can help a stuck bot

Any other thoughts?

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

if you are lined up to where you need to shoot
what defense you should hit (in case the drivers are to into the driving to look at the lights)
go left, right, forward, back, etc.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Can a human player (spy) bring a non-electronic device (such as a whiteboard) onto with them to the spy area to assist communication with the drivers?

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

5.5.9 B permits "non-powered signaling devices" to be brought into the CASTLE, but that rule, which is usually the rule saying what you can bring onto the playing field at all, only says CASTLE, not SPY BOX. It's unclear what you can legally have in the SPY BOX, but I'm guessing not including it in 5.5.9 was an oversight that might be resolved in a team update.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

But I'm not sure how we interpret this:
It is for purposes of communication, but it is not communicating strategy. It is communicating position, directions, lined up for a shot ...

But if 5.5.9 is not extended to apply to the SPY BOX, then it's pretty much open game with no restrictions of what you bring in there. You could bring in a great big LED display screen.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

It may be necessary for the spy to distinguish between the 1, 2, or 3 teams in the courtyard area -- i.e., one needs to back up, another to the right, the third to move forward. It will depend on who's view is blocked by defenses, and from which station they control.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Instead of having signals for which direction to move, remember that you can use cameras. The signals should be more focused towards warning the alliance about the number of boulders in the enemy castle. If the enemy has 6 boulders, then scoring again forces them to feed another boulder into the game. This would allow you to grab the boulder that they were forced to feed into the field, so you can make a cycle.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Instead of relying on just one method of direction (e.g: camera, hand signal) why not use a couple so the drivers can focus on the camera and driving while the coach looks out for the Spy's signal (robot coming from left, something broke, etc)

Boulder language
 

I believe we should also include numbers in the secret language. This would be to represent the number of balls in the opposing team's play. By monitoring the number of balls in play your alliance may avoid fouls, or induce fouls on the opposing team.

I believe this could be done by, just by showing the numbers using their hands. However this may not be as affective because, it may interfere with hand movements and I'm not too good at stress counting.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I really like this idea! The head mentor for our team had that same thinking. I hope we get a copy.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I think putting together a hand signal that is common between most of the teams is a good idea, allowing the spy not only to communicate to their drive team, but to the rest of the alliance as well

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I think this is good, one hand can signal the subject, be it game element or alliance robot, while the other signals specific information. This will help avoid confusion as to what the spy is communicating about, and the drive coaches can easily signal what information they need. Message can be repeated until acknowledged by coach or situation changes.
Perhaps instead of pointing to communicate position, we can create a system for giving rough section coordinates reverting to pointing and gesturing for more precise navigation. For example, the spy could signal that there was a boulder in the region of defense 3, close to the tower then give gesture directions when a robot is in that region to pick up that boulder.
These should be refined, published, and circulated at competitions with illustrated instructions.

A small warning about multiple hands in signs: in ASL either both hands have the same (or alternating) motion, or one hand remains still while the other moves. Having different motions for each hand will make it more difficult to understand overall. I would suggest making the "nouns" still and the "verbs" movement.

I'm the only mentor for 166 who has sign language experience, as far as I know... This will be interesting.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

It may be that we can't see the defense (being attacked) status lights very well from the driver stations and signaling their status is helpful. They are pretty low down. Maybe the lower tower lights, too, depending on the location of obstacles. The flag falls when the tower is weakened. Maybe the spy could throw his hat on the ground when the defense is breached.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

My brief thoughts:


A general "Wait!" or "Stop!" signal should be putting your right hand up, palm out, in a general "Wait" sort of motion.
A "Don't do [a thing]!" signal should be done by indicating the thing in the ways mentioned below and then drawing right hand across throat, palm down, in the immortal "This will kill you!" gesture.

Defenses should be indicated by pointing at the defensive wall.
If you want to signal the strength of individual defenses, 1) point at defensive wall with left hand, 2) raise right hand over head with between one and five fingers up (indicating which defense you are referring to), and then either put right hand up all the way for full strength, halfway for half strength, and completely down for damaged. Right hand should be palm down. (I should mention that Defense #1 is always the low bar, just to make things clear here.)
If you want to indicate which defense to attack: 1) Point at defensive wall with left hand, 2) raise right hand over head with between one and five fingers up, and 3) make a fist with right hand ("Charge!") If you indicate strength of defenses and then immediately make a fist, it should be interpreted as you wanting to attack that defense on account of its strength. If the robot is misaligned, align it with the instructions provided later.

Actions pertaining to the tower are indicated by pointing at the tower.
"Shoot into the high goal" or "You're aligned for the high goal" is indicated by pointing at tower with left hand and making a "basketball shot" motion with right hand.
"Shoot into the low goal" or "You're aligned for the low goal" is indicated by pointing at tower with left hand and making a "bowling-ball-roll" motion with right hand.
"The enemy's defense has been breached!" is indicated by pointing at the tower with left hand, raising right hand straight up with all fingers extended, and then making a motion as if you're hitting a buzzer open-palmed at slightly above eye level (basically, just rotate elbow down).
"Surround the castle!" is indicated by pointing at tower with left hand and making a fist with right hand.
"Climb the tower!" or "You're aligned to climb the tower!" is indicated by pointing at the tower with left hand and pointing at the sky with right hand.
If the robot is misaligned, align it with the instructions below.

"A boulder is here!" is indicated by pointing to the location of boulder with left hand and then using both hands to mime "holding a boulder" over one's head with hands on either side of the "boulder." (Repeat as needed.)
"Pick up the boulder!" is indicated by pointing to the boulder with your left hand and making a motion as if you're picking up a boulder off the ground with right hand (without stooping).
"A defensive robot is here!" is indicated by pointing to the defensive robot with your left hand and putting your right hand over your heart while making a fist. If the robot is moving, follow it with your finger, bringing your arm closer towards you if it's close to you and further away if it's near the other side of the field.

Directing where the robot moves is done as follows:
Extend both arms straight out in front of you if you want the robot to go in that direction quickly.
The same could be said with extending both arms to the left, to the right, straight back, or at any other angle. (For straight back, put arms up over head, bent at the elbows. You know what I mean.)
If you want the robot to go more slowly, only extend arms partway in said direction.
To stop, use "stop" signal above.

Finally, if your robot or any other robot is broken in some way, point to robot and then put both palms on your forehead.


That's really all I could come up with for now. I'm sure there are plenty of other signs that need inventing, though.

...and I guess I don't have time to do any more of this, so why don't you invent other signs yourself? :)

-Thromgord

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Why is that? It would make it easy for spies to not only communicate with their own team, but their entire alliance.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

As a cadet in the Civil Air Patrol, the USAF Auxillary, i have some slight experience with flight-line marshaling. Ideally, we would use traffic wands(flashlights with big tinted cones). What the CAP aircrews near me use are just 3' PVC pipes spray painted orange.

ASL is too small, and semaphore is too complicated. I say we meet in the middle and use colored PVC pipes to signal the drivers, and have the motions based off aviation or rigging standards. The PVC pipes could even be two colors, though this would make the language more complicated.

Thoughts?

*Wave hands furiously while jumping up and down* = Opponents are about to make a massive tactical error, get in position to take advantage now

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

My idea is to take some LED lights and hook them up to a vest for the "spy" to wear. Each color and flashing pattern that they display could stand for something different. Such as:
Red for right
Blue for left
Green for good
And so on..
It's just an idea but if it was executed properly it could possibly work. Although I am a proud 4th year ASL student and would LOVE to use sign language in the game. It would be very difficult to make sure the hands of the "spy" are visible at that distance. Where as the lights you could see even through obstructions.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Why would you have 2 colors meaning the same thing?

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I apologize, I meant "Blue for left". I guess this build season has already got me lacking sleep and mixing up left and right!

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

We now have a use for captains!

anyway you can build a specialized defiant set of signals within your team and have a translator read them out as they're sent. I mean whats the chance everyone is on-board with a good complex and efficient system.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I love the idea of universal signals! Definitely would be in the spirit of FIRST.

One consideration: As a field volunteer at events, please keep safety in mind. Make sure that your spies and anything they bring into the spybox does not cross into the field proper, or come close to a robot. Thanks!

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I have a dream, that frc teams alike, can use universal hand signals, to prevent confusion and robot collision. I have a dream that all frc are created equal. I have a dream all frc teams can go to St.Louis.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I think we need a poll to see which signals we think are most useful to include in a universal system.

I also know that some teams will want to augment their hand gestures with some form of signaling device, whereas others will not have the time/resources to plan that kind of thing in advance; as such, we should include both options in our final standard.

Example augmentations:

• Glove with different colors on different surfaces
• Traffic control wand or comparable pointing device
• Semaphore with several different colored flags/cards/surfaces
• Electronic sign with selectable shapes/patterns/signals

A few thoughts:

• Indicate location of boulder
  (I think we can all agree this one is essential)
  • One hand points at the boulder
  • Other hand indicates "boulder". Examples:
    • Closed fist
    • White flag/card
    • Sign with a picture of a boulder

• Instruct a robot to move in a specific direction
  (Useful for lining up with a goal)
  • One hand indicates the direction to move
  • Other hand indicates "move". Examples:
    • Raise index finger, rotate in circle
      (example)
    • Pale blue flag/card
      (to avoid confusion with the referees' penalty flags)
    • Sign with multidirectional arrows
      (example)

• Indicate distance to target
  (Goal, boulder, whatever)
  • Both hands raised
    (example)
  • Bring hands together as the robot approaches the target
  • When robot is in correct position, hands are completely together
  • If robot goes too far, hands cross

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Adding on to that last one some more.

specifying a robot-> an arm at 0, 45, and 90 degrees with closed or open fist

Shot clear-> hands make a circle above head

Shot blocked-> hands make X above head

insert part of robot Broken-> arms make X across chest

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Another Possible Signal:

Safe, or not safe, to go to the SP area to intercept boulder being in-bounded.

Clear the SP because of approaching defending bot.

It might be worthwhile for the Spy to have a one-way communication device to hear questions from the drive team.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

As much as I like the idea of a universal system, it could backfire. If I were able to see where the other robot wants to go, I could easily move to block them. Likewise, I could wait until the human player signals a shot before I ram in, ruining the shot.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

This dictionary is now mostly complete and can be viewed at this link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

It includes a list of lots of signs (In actual ASL) that will prove to be very useful in communicating across the field.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

As specified by the rules, as long as it isn't electronic and doesn't interfere with the robots, you can have an item with you in the spy box.

Perhaps looking into flag signals or simply signs that your team members have drawn up for specifics would be a good thing to look into?

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Wow, you did a lot of work on this. I'm on the fence. I'm thinking that basing it on ASL is good, since there are lots of people that already know it. It may also be a hidden bonus since there may be audience members that know ASL.

I'm wondering how well people will be able to see the signs. They are behind glass, wearing safety glasses looking down field to the spy about 45' away. Lighting is iffy in lots of venues. Will the hand signs be clearly visible and understandable?

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

How legal/feasible is giving the spy a phone, and then using bluetooth low energy to send information to driver stations?

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Not legal: That's not a non-powered signalling device. T26-1 won't allow the match to start until it's stowed.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Why don't you just hold up a big mirror for your drive team to see what's happening?

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Risk of reflecting a vision target at a robot, maybe. That would violate at least two rules if a robot actually tossed a boulder at it.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

If we can't use a universal system, then I'm having trouble imagining how the spy can assist others in the alliance. Is everyone just planning on using the spy for their own individual team purpose, and the rest of the alliance just supposed to ignore him/her?

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

This, I like this. Nice and detailed.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

It's not uncommon for people fluent in ASL to communicate across a football field, or through glass, or whatnot. You just sign bigger (a bit like shouting or over-enunciating.)

That said, it's terribly, terribly common for people to teach themselves incorrectly, even when using a video to help, so if the plan is to use ASL, try to find someone who knows it so that they can correct you--and be advised that there are colloquialisms, accents (mine is mostly Western NY with a healthy mix of Californian), regional differences in word usage, and even a Black variety of ASL.

Alas, the best way to communicate would be a fluent use of classifier-based signing, but most ASL classes don't get into that much until ASL 3 or so. (Which, IMO, is silly--I've always introduced classifiers on day one and make extensive use of them throughout my classes, because they're an integral part of ASL fluency.)

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

"Look at me":


"Don't do that":


"I said don't do that":


"You did it again":


"I give up, you aren't listening to me anyway":

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I'm on the same team as Katherine. We'll be creating a video soon that shows all of the signs together rather than as a bunch of separate ones. Once that's made we'll make sure to post a link in this thread. That way we can get some visual learning started rather than just descriptions.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Looking forward to seeing that - our team did driving practice with another team and started to use some hand signals. Worth having a common language.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Man I was just planning on ditching the spy box role and having whoever is running spy on our team just give me a thumb up or a thumbs down if things were lined up wrong. This is pretty intense stuff.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

I looked at the list, and love the idea... our team was creating a list on our own with some similar ideas.. although we haven't gotten quite as far..

Although to make the defenses easier to understand, we decided using numbers to show where on the outerworks it is. Since we are learning numbers for this, we also thought we could use the numbers to tell the time to the teams if they ask.

Our team's dictionary (although not complete) is here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

And thus from regional to regional a dialect of spy box was brought into existence and to this day scholars still have no idea how it got so big.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

A little disappointed that this didn't become a unified spy-talk. I thought it had so much possibility.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

We have fully completed this and if you would like to take a look at it, just click on the link in the quoted post.

Re: Universal Spy Hand Signals
 

Has anyone though about adapting the Open Outcry system that is used on some financial exchanges?

http://www.cmegroup.com/education/op...d-signals.html

It's basically a simple and clear method of nonverbal communication used relay information about extremely time-sensitive financial and commodity trades from across a very noisy trading pit such as NYSE. Since it's so simple and optimized for an environment very similar to an FRC event (where there is a lot of noise and time is of the essence), open outcry could be another useful option for spy communication.