Rookie Stratagy
 

Just an FYI for rookie teams.

A good strategy for this year could be to create a low robot that can go under the low bar. This robot could also push a boulder into the low goal or play defense in your own zone.

Just an idea for rookie teams looking for help with strategy with such a complicated game.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

Sounds like a Minimum Competitive Concept, mmc, which is generally designed with the intent to make it to eliminations.

It is way better to excel at some aspects of the game than to do all of the aspects ok. A great mmc can provide great synergy with the best of bots.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

I'd say to concentrate on tackling 2-3 obstacles by using large wheels on the kitbot and adding a scoop to score in the low goal.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

There are actually a good number of things for first-year teams to do. It's easy, for example, to do the following:

Create a robot that goes under the low bar. Basically for the reasons previously mentioned.
Create a robot capable of holding doors open for others. Extremely useful if there's a Drawbridge or Sally Port that others can't weaken otherwise. It's simple and effective!
Create a robot that can score in the low goal efficiently. At the end of the day, a great robot that can shoot into the low goal beats the pants off an iffy robot that can shoot into the high goal.

If I was a rookie team, I would create a robot with the ability to very quickly push balls through the low bar and onto the other side of the field for a shooter-robot to collect and score with. It's not tremendously difficult at all, but with good organization, it could result in streamlined and efficient gameplay (and a much better chance of making it to eliminations!)

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

You forgot the most important thing a rookie team can do. Build a kick $@#$@#$@# castle defender. A robust drivetrain and a good driver can probably cut in half the number of boulders scored against your castle.

Take them from 15 to 7 boulders scored and you've kept prevented the other alliance from claiming a ranking point.

Call your robot Dane Axe and imagine you're at the battle of Stamford Bridge.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

A team that builds the robot Thromgord describes would likely have the qualities to be "a kick $@#$@#$@# castle defender". A team that has the goal of building "a kick $@#$@#$@# castle defender" will likely not be able to do many of things Thromgord describes that would allow their alliance to increase their score.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

IMO the best advice: Dont always listen to what others tell you to do, if you have a design that you think you can do and are confident in its success pertaining to the challenge, DO IT! Become the breakout rookie of the event, get other teams and the community talking about your team, and get your team excited with an original design! You dont need to be a cookie cutter robot, you can do any design you want, you just have to build it!

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

This is true, but if a team attempts to build Thromgord's robot may bite off more than it can chew resulting in an incomplete and drivers with no practice.

The #1 thing a rookie or inexperienced team should do is build a strong 6 cim drive train and give their drivers a lot of practice. Even if any of their other plans or designs don't pan out, they can always be a valuable partner by playing defense.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

Yep, and every single alliance is going to want a dedicated castle defender. A match without a defender is a match that is lost.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

Will both alliances lose if neither have a defender? :)

Joking aside, one important thing to remember about defense. Generally speaking, Denying the other alliance points is just scoring those points for your alliance in a different way.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

Would you need to alter the KOP Drivetrain or even make a new one? Or could you stick with the KOP Drivetrain with bigger wheels?

Also, are 8 inch rubber tread wheels instead of pneumatic wheels ok?

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

This year is probably one of the best years for a low lying drivetrain robot.

A lot of Stronghold's aspects are similar to the 2010 game, where pretty much everyone was a drivetrain, pushed around balls similar to the boulders this year, and climbed a bar like the one on the tower. Additionally on the field there were low passages for easy movement for small robots, just like the low bar.

One of the objectives this year is weakening the tower, which usually requires 8 scored boulders (tech fouls or GDC sprucing stuff up for district champs and beyond may affect this). However, it doesn't specify whether it should be a boulder through the high goal or the low goal. A low lying drivetrain bot can easily zip through the low bar for quick scoring cycles purely to weaken the tower. Additionally, we aren't limited in the method of ball possession like 2010, so its arguably easier.

Like those above have mentioned, a decent drivetrain can traverse most of the low lying defenses out there, as well as utilizing its ease of reaching the opponent's courtyard to open the sally port or drawbridge for other robots. Thus it can also contribute to breaching the defenses.

Just like that, a well built, robust drivetrain can be very useful offensively for this game, aiding in gaining ranking points or additional during elims. As was previously mentioned, it can also effectively serve a defensive role as well.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

If what Thromgord is suggesting is beyond the capabilities of any particular team, they need to get with the program and learn what it takes to do those things. They can start by doing some brainstorming and by doing some research, looking at old game videos and searching for threads about those mechanisms here on CD. They can also ask some nearby established teams for some help.

Yes, many rookie teams will build "Defense Bots". How will your team differentiate itself from the other teams with Defense Bots come Alliance Selection time? How will your team progress from only building Defense Bots, as some teams have done for many years?

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

I think we may be talking to different rookie team audiences. When I say rookie team I'm thinking of 6 kids and 2 adults working in a garage on what would be a shoe string budget if they hadn't already used the shoe strings to hold the battery in the robot.

I see a dozen teams each year matching that description. Half the time they don't have a functioning robot on Thursday morning. Yes, a sustainable team with ISO 9000 certification is awesome, but functional needs to come first.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

If a rookie team is physically isolated and does not know of any resources such as CD or other teams, or they absolutely refuse any outside help, for whatever reason, I can see them showing up at a tournament with a half-assembled KOP. Otherwise, I do not see any excuse for a rookie team not to learn and stretch and try to score in some way, even if they ultimately fail. I think last years game where defense was prohibited was the GDC's reaction to seeing too many Defense Bots.

We worked with several total rookie teams last year. One from out of our area had 4 or 5 students and 2 adults. At one tournament, we were able to give them ideas on how to improve their scoring mechanism and directed them to an established team that was doing well with a mechanism similar to theirs to get more ideas. Over the course of 2 1/2 days, they went from just struggling to pick up a single tote to being able to put up stacks of at least 2. At the next, tougher Regional, they were able to improve their ranking relative to their ranking at the first. Another rookie team in town would visit us every two weeks or so and work along side our team or would visit our generous friends at Spectrum to get advice and access to tools and materials they did not have. They had about 8 students and a team parent with no technical skills who mainly signed paperwork, helped to pay for things and drove the students around. I don't recall seeing him pick up a screwdriver or a drill. Their ranking at the end of the tournament wasn't great but they kept a positive attitude and learned from us and other teams in the process, saw that they could do the things that teams ranking higher than them did and were excited to do better in the future. I think I just described "Inspiration"...

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

Is 6 CIM really required? Seems to me if the team had the ability to add a 3rd CIM they would be better off with a shifting gearbox or one that was geared down from the KOP

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

I agree, you really don't need 6 CIM drivetrain. Shifters would be beneficial for BREACH cycle. Don't forget about auton points either!

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

MCC: KOP Drive Train and an over-the-bumper roller claw.
Build: A claw that resembles a lot of 2011's robots, and the ability to make it fold out from the inside of the robot over the bumper. Mechanically, about 30 lbs using beefy components.
Code: Autonomous 'drive forward forward for 2 seconds after folding the claw out'. After that, normal teleop.
Strategy: After autonomous, dump the ball that the robot started with. Drive back under the low bar, then through the secret passage, and play some massive defense. At 30 seconds remaining, make your way back to the opposing courtyard while finding a ball along the way. Use the low bar defense again. Go 'challenge' the tower and spit out the ball into the low goal while you're at it.

Value:

• Autonomous crossing (10 points)
• 1 ball delivered for a partner, or if they determine it's faster for you to low goal it then +2 points and another 1/8th of the weakened tower.
• 25% of the breach using no additional time (5 points for the 2nd crossing; the first was done in autonomous)
• 1 ball in the low goal (2 points)
• 33% of a Capture
• 1/8th of the requirement to weaken the tower
• Challenge at the end (5 points)
• Defense played for a 2/3 of the match, with no breaks in between. Oh btw, you can use your claw to dare your opponent to go get balls from your secret passage after you've placed them there...

22 points and major alliance contributions seem very reasonable to me - but there can only be one on an alliance...

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

I think we are still all on our honeymoon phase here on CD. Remember last year when we said all the cans would be used in regional quals? And that the top 20 teams at every regional would be able to put up multiple 6 stacks every match?

What some people are describing here (a robot that can go over any obstacles and can score low goal) is not a MCC, its a top 5 seeded robot. A robot that can do those things is guaranteed at least 1 RP per match, 2 RPs with partners who can challenge, and all 4 RPs if any other robots on the alliance can score.

By themselves they would get:
15 Auto Points
45 Teleop Defense Points and 1 RP
14 Low Goal Points
5 Challenge Points

In a game where point values are quite low, this is incredible performance. If a robot can do all that by themselves, they are going to be a top seed unquestionably at a regional. Switch low goal with high and add a climber and you have an Einstein Finalist.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

^ Yes!

With some intelligent planning, even a "low-resource team" should be able to bring the claw Jesse describes in the withholding allowance. A Helper Bot can always play defense and will always be more valuable than a Defense Bot and will be more likely to be chosen come Alliance Selection.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

Rookie Team Reporting for Duty!

A question about the 6 CIMs comment...

Am I correct in stating that the current KOP Drive Base Chassis only includes a gearbox with input for 4 CIM motors (2 for each side)? If so, are there any gearboxes that mesh well with the KOP Drive Base that offer 6 CIMs? If 6 CIMs is not easily done using the KOP pieces, can't we achieve the same level of torque by sacrificing speed? Obviously you'd be a better defender with more pushing power, but you'd decrease your cycle time of delivering balls to the front lines.

We're also debating whether or not it's necessary to have a 2 speed option, so I'd appreciate any feedback about that. Any comments about how difficult that might be to implement (and keep in mind that we are rookies!)?

Thanks,
Tim

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

I'm not sure how much 6 CIMs will help you on the field, but I do know they will help you get selected as a 3rd robot. I've been on alliances where teams made our short list of 3rd robots just because they had 6 CIMs.

My previous post wasn't suggesting teams shouldn't be more than just a drivetrain that plays defense. I'm advising teams to not sacrifice their drive train or driver practice to add additional capabilities. Spending 5 weeks on a high goal scorer or climber while their drivetrain isn't reliable and drivers aren't practiced is a bad idea. Building a new, untested, articulated drivetrain (look back at some very good teams that struggled in 2010 due to fancy yet ineffective drivetrains) to weaken defenses instead of building a more simple tank drive is also a bad idea.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

There are numerous veteran teams that should be paying attention to what's being posted in this thread.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

Tim,

I was alluding to some of these things in my comment but was far too brief so let me elaborate.

KOP only allows for 4 CIMs as you pointed out. You would need something like:
3-CIM
3-CIM with Shifter

While these don't come with a Kit or anything to integrate into the KOP you can integrate them without a ton of trouble and a few teams can probably give you a step by step if you decide on that route.

You are correct that one of the easiest and most often overlooked changes that you can make is to change the ratio on the KOP gearbox. Andymark includes details on how to do this in the KOP assembly instructions. As mentioned it will be a power/speed tradeoff but blindly accepting the ratio that the KOP provides doesn't allow you to tailor things to the strategy you are trying to achieve.

I think putting teams on a short list because of 3 CIMs is silly. I have seen many 3 CIM robots be pushed around by a 2 CIM shifting gearbox just because of the ratios. Don't forget brownouts being a higher possibility with 3CIM drivetrains and everyone can agree that a robot dead on the field is a big red flag for alliance selection.

This doesn't mean that a shifting gearbox is within your capabilities as it will take pneumatics and some additional code to do it right. I know some rookies and a bunch of second year teams have been able to do this so it isn't out of the question.

I completely agree with Xaul in his comments about driver practice though. Getting a driver who is comfortable with the robot and who can control it well outweighs probably any of these changes.

I am curious how high ranking teams view a 3CIM drive vs shifting (or maybe neither of these is important)?

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

Yes, you can get the same torque by sacrificing speed. You then have the problem of catching the faster bot. You can't push what you can't catch. Adding a shifting gearbox adds complexity as jdaming discusses very well. It also adds a lot of cost. An effective driver will likely make more difference than two extra motors regardless of what role their robot plays. A good example is how 610's driver dealt with defense in 2013.


With proper planning and design, it should be possible to start driver practice within the first few weeks of the build season. The mechanisms that give your robot additional capabilities can be installed later in the build season or be brought to your tournament in your withholding allowance.

Re: Rookie Stratagy
 

Advice to rookie teams for Stronghold: Spend a lot of time perfecting a drivetrain that can traverse all of the terrain-based obstacles (not gates) including the low bar. If you are successful with this, you will make the playoffs at most events. The low bar will be a valued skill because it's consistently there (allowing for consistent alliance strategy) and it is very quick to traverse if you're low enough. If you perfect driving over obstacles, design a way to grab and release boulders. If you can do that we'll enough, you will be very successful.