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-   Rules/Strategy (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   G11 and G28 Technicalities (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141481)

EricH 11-01-2016 19:40
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyBare (Post 1521534)
Even as a verb... "Formally stated, Newton's third law is: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object."

Thus, if I contact you, you contact me.

As for G11, it's to stop teams pulling strategies like blocking human player feeding stations and forcing them to have more than 6 balls within their castles.
We are not talking science, we are talking English. In the English language, if I contact you, you are NOT initiating the contact. If I contact you, you are in contact with me, and I am in contact with you, AFTER I contact you.

Here's the implications given by that:
Contact, initiate contact, make contact: A-> B, if A contacts, initiates contact, or makes contact. Think of it this way: Telemarketer contacts YOU. I don't know when the last time you contacted a telemarketer is...

In contact, contact (n): A <-> B.




I don't think we're in disagreement on G11. Allow me: It's disallowing teams from using the rules to develop a strategy to harm their opponent by causing a rules violation. Thus, it prohibits repeatedly hitting an opponent in your Passage just to rack up the penalties (if you're going to hit them, I suggest pushing them as hard as you can), blocking the various chutes so that boulders cannot be entered, and hitting your opponent in their courtyard for the penalties in the last 20 seconds. BUT, it does not prevent hitting them to get at those boulders, hitting them so you can get to the tower, or sitting just a bit outside the chutes so the boulders collect behind you and are hard but not impossible to get to.

DredPiratRobrts 11-01-2016 21:41
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANKlybored (Post 1521448)
There seem to be so many woundering people on this forum. PLEASE, I repeat, PLEASE seek medical attention if you or anyone on your team is woundering.
The Ginger needs to work on his typing and vocabulary.

Fields 12-01-2016 09:00
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
Anyway here on G11.

Camping in the SP and using G11 to prevent others from contacting you is in fact G11 itself.

Secondly as a defender I can contact you without drawing a G11 on myself easily. "I'm trying to retrieve a boulder from the HP and needed to push them out of my way" or "I'm just trying to pin them for the allotted time" or "I just happen to be driving that way and they were in my path"

One change I do hope for is that they change G21 from being on the SP carpet to any part of the frame above the SP.
It is easy to cantilever out a frame plus your 15" allowance to block the HP. I say just the frame so that if a HP is careless in their throw and it gets to close to the edge. The other team can make them pay by snatching it up.
Personal preference on that one, may not be a big deal though unless you have good control over a good number of boulders.

The Ginger 12-01-2016 16:21
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
thank you all for the help but could i please redirect you to the question, can you roll a boulder from the opposing teams SP into their courtyard to one of your team mates? I am not trying to be rude but i need an answer.

alopex_rex 12-01-2016 16:25
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fields (Post 1521856)
Camping in the SP and using G11 to prevent others from contacting you is in fact G11 itself.
(Sigh) No.
Meta-violations of G11 will never be a thing. Unless your robot has mind control capabilities, it is impossible to adopt a strategy of forcing other teams to adopt a strategy of forcing you to commit fouls.

T3_1565 12-01-2016 16:28
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ginger (Post 1522179)
thank you all for the help but could i please redirect you to the question, can you roll a boulder from the opposing teams SP into their courtyard to one of your team mates? I am not trying to be rude but i need an answer.
No you cannot. If a robot is transferring a boulder from neutral zone to courtyard it must go through (and completely CROSS) a defense. Secret passage is not a defense.

Even bumping it through intentionally would be against the rules. Accidentally it may happen of course

The Ginger 12-01-2016 16:32
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
not from the neutral zone, from the secret passage (SP)

alopex_rex 12-01-2016 16:34
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ginger (Post 1522198)
not from the neutral zone, from the secret passage (SP)
Transferring boulders from the opponent's SP to the opponent's courtyard is fine.

T3_1565 12-01-2016 16:34
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ginger (Post 1522198)
not from the neutral zone, from the secret passage (SP)
Ok. Yes as long as you remember that you had to get into their secret passage from their courtyard. and you cannot get in contact with their robots while in there.

The Ginger 12-01-2016 16:40
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
Alright, Thank you guys for the help! :)

rich2202 12-01-2016 16:52
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by T3_1565 (Post 1522196)
No you cannot. If a robot is transferring a boulder from neutral zone to courtyard it must go through (and completely CROSS) a defense. Secret passage is not a defense.
Nor is the SP the Neutral Zone.

Scenario:
Robot is in the SP (or partially in the courtyard and partially in the SP).
Opposing alliance inbounds a boulder into the SP.
Robot intercepts the boulder.

At that point, the Robot can move the boulder into the courtyard because it is not a violation of G40 (G40 requires the boulder to be coming from the Neutral Zone). If the Robot is also simultaneously in contact with the SP and Courtyard, G39 would permit the Robot to Launch the boulder (take a shot at the goal).

Chase Haddleton 13-01-2016 14:22
Re: G11 and G28 technecalitys
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1521529)
I'm going to make two statements here.

The first is that "Contact", when used as a verb, (very important) carries the implication that X is taking the action to make contact with Y. NOT the other way around.

The second is that a team that uses other rules to rack up penalties on their opponents is in fact using a strategy, and is in violation of G11. If there is a legitimate reason to take an action that causes an opponent to get a foul, then G11 wouldn't apply (most likely). If there is no legitimate reason, G11 applies. Whether or not G11 applies is going to be heavily context-dependent.



By the way, we've been discussing this in other threads since Kickoff. If 5-6 threads full of disagreement on one item isn't enough to ensure a change in TU#1, I don't know what is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bduddy (Post 1521501)
No, that's not the rule. Please specify how "they have that right" or how the red alliance can contact the blue robot to cause a foul without violating G11.
Rule update today clarifies this
Quote:
Section 3.4.6 ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction
■ G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing ROBOTS, regardless of who initiates the contact.
Emphasis added.
http://www.firstinspires.org/sites/d...al/2016/01.pdf


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