What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

As most of you can tell I really like coaching, but what are your opinions about FIRST allowing 2 coaches again (This isnt a rumor or been discussed, its more of a "What if" question)

I would like to see FIRST bring back the 2nd coach with these changes:

-The 2nd coach will be optional (in previous years I know how tough it gets with 4 coaches out there with space issues, and strategy debating, but it can get really tough for one coach (I know, its tough to watch yourselves and the opponenets)

-If a team uses a 2nd coach, it must be a student: There are many teams that have had the same coach for years, but students would like to coach, but may not have that chance unless they bring back 2 coaches....If FIRST said the 2nd coach could be anyone, then the 4 adults bickering would come back again and the rule change would be pointless because it brings back the point for why they got rid of the 2nd coach in the first place....if the 2nd coach is a student, bickering and arguing could go down (who knows?) because they are more of a trainee to the adult that in the future the student has coaching expierence for if and when they start their own team as an adult.



Thats my thoughts... 2nd coach... good or bad?

2 coaches
 

I don't believe that the arguing and bickering was a result of 4 adult coaches as much as it was a result of not allowing strategy preparation, and announcing the pairings at the last second.

Re: 2 coaches
 

Thats very true....I remember a lot of tempers flaring at nationals in 2001.....having 2 coaches with 4 teams...8 coaches wow that got kind of nuts...but there are better ways to bring back the 2nd coach...

hmm... seein as i am the only coach and i like it like that i have to vote nay (i'm the only no vote up there right now)

I posted two for only one reason really..

Basically, last year with 2 coaches.. on coach direcly "coached" the driver/operator.. the other coach was in charge of strategy & talking strategy before the match, and then keeping everyone on task during the match (calling out strategy changes, etc). It wasn't really necessary for two last year imho.

This year with only one, we could do all that, but tracking the score during a match, on which many strategies depended, became hard.. trying to communicate with your team, your alliance, count the score, watch the time, call changes, etc.. it became hard..

That's the only reason I'd vote for a second coach... I'd be a fan of making it optional.. because I think the # of coaches necessary depends on the game.

Well, many different views to take on this. If I remember correctly when I became driver in May of 2001, we only used one coach in my first competition. I don't remember if it was the coach's decision (the previous driver) or if there wasn't anyone there to do it. I didn't mind only having one coach, it kept things sinplilar. However, I see the view that having a second one, and have it mandatory to be a high school student allows not only for others to have the floor experience but also learn how to be a coach for the future. Right now, I am undecided either way, because I will never have to worry about it as a driver. My coach will still be in college next year, and I know he is more than willing to stick with our floor team next year. However, I have already run into the problem of having no one else know what to do as coach, so when we go to NASA/MD State Fair, we will have to have someone step in for him, because they will not allow non high school students to coach. So, if FIRST were to change the coach rule, allow teams to have two, however, the second mentor badge should be restricted to high school students so they can learn.

how many people total?
 

Would this mean 5 people per team or 4? The roles of the 4 people are not all that clearly defined other than to limit what the mentor can do. WHo is to say that student 3 can't be a "coach?"
I think you can also have a coach who helps develop overall plans before the match with the help of the rest of the driver team.

I'd like to see having two coaches next year, but if so, I would want to make one be a high school student. The second coach allows more people (and more students) to participate. You can also give parents, engineers, and sponsors to be a part of the floor team without sacrificing a vital spot on your drive team.

I would agree that it is easier to define 4 roles than 5, but I do know there are cases where I would have liked to have a 5th person, or wanted to have an adult to assist (we have an all-student drive team). In particular, our "Strategy Guy" was an adult, but we wanted to keep the 4-student team, so he couldn't go on the field and help with strategy. He had to stand off to the side and be there if we needed to ask a question before a match. Having him there in the box with us would have been very helpful in a few spots.

So, I would say that the second coach is a good idea, but only if there is a mandatory student coach for the first position.

You need to punctuate.
Anyway, with the keeping track of score issue. I was the arm driver. After we picked up balls, etc, i kept a score for our team, and our coach pretty much watched the opposing teams. When he saw something that we needed to react to he told us. If you watch any video of our matches our arm driving usually gets done quickly. It allowed me to keep score and our coach to focus elsewhere.
But not all teams have a second driver not doing anything during the match. I guess your design can effect(affect, i was never good with that) your coaching.

Oh yeah i said keep 1

Ogre,

I know I need to punctuate. But, I usually dont post long posts so I rarely do. Even when they are long it is just a bad habbit of mine. Anyways school is out and I don't care that much.

P.S. My previous post is now edited with punctuation marks. Happy now Ogre. Ohh and I know the person that controls your breaks.:)

Time for a tangent!

I remember some disscusion about the role of human players, and how they pretty much clutter the station up 80% of the time for lack of anything to do aside keep score (on the teams that allow them even that much). Some one mentioned moving the human players out of the station and into their own 'human player station', either in the field or on the side lines, whatever. This way, human players get a bit more attention (which they deserve) and you get the player station less cluttered. Every one wins!

I'm in love with the idea.

So, if FIRST were to some how bring the human players out of the player station, I would be open to the two coaches again. It's just to crowded as it is, I'd like to see the human players seperated regardless of how many coaches we have.

I think 4 people are plenty to control a 'bot and keep score, espically if FIRST keeps their promise of easy scoring this year. We'll see...

-Andy A.

I do too. And i can go on break whenever i want, its called quitting. lol:D

coaches
 

well number of coaches should be no more than 2. this could work as long as 2 team alliances. I am a second year first student and i took over as coach during all of the off season competitions. this was because during the "real" season i was human player. I made very little shots, but having that extra head back there to keep track of scores was a big help in qualifying. The reason i became coach is because our new driver in training feels most compfortable with me helping him behind the glass. Personally, i think coaches should all be students (high school or college). This would keep some of the emotions down between the evil coaches that boss everyone around (not common at all, but you know who you are) thats just my 2 cents.

I've always wondered why a second coach is needed to discuss strategy before a match. As a driver, I always did it myself. That way I knew exactly what was going on. What takes up other drivers' time before matches? Last year and in 2001, I never had any trouble strategizing. Two coaches can be very useful on the field, mind you. 2001 definitly was nice for that. There was so much tunnel vision while driving since everything had to be done so precisely (aka, balancing) that having one coach be an extra set of eyes and ears was a real plus. Last year having a 5th person on the field would have been completely uneccesarry. I say let FIRST decide on a problem by problem basis.

~Tom Fairchild~

If nothing else comes from this thread its that

-FIRST needs to have a student coach out there....

-If FIRST only has one coach and its a student it could put too much pressure on them...an adult backup would be a wise solution

- If FIRST would have 2 coaches, you could make it an adult and a student, it would prevent confusion on the field if you plan it out right.


I know people have said this in earlier threads, but with 2 coaches, one watches our allience and makes sure everything goes smoothly, and the 2nd watches the opponents to make sure they dont do pull any suprises, and keep time along with the human player

You mean how it was before 2000?

My first time driving was this year, so I don't know what it was like with 2 coaches, but I say we keep it at 1. It can get very confusing and hectic up there, and I think 2 people giving directions will only make it worse in most circumstances. Some people have suggested one coach directly tell the drivers what to do, and another focus on strategy. As far as I'm concerned, let the driver's drive. They have a much better grasp of the actual situation with the robot then the coach does. A driver knows when he's losing a pushing match, or a robot is malfunctioning, and where to go and when to turn, etc. without a coach. A coach is most valuable when he looks at the big picture all the time, and lets the driver handle the robot. The driver is always focused on his (or her) robot. The coach doesnt have that limitation, and can help the driver prioritize, decide on strategy decisions, and warn the driver of approaching threats(i.e. the other team's robot). One person does this quite well. What might be more valuable is allowing a tech to be on feild, but not in the box. He can assist on loding/unloading the robot, making emergency repairs, replacing batteries, etc. During the match he should get to be nearby on the sidelines, with the best possible viewpoint safety will allow. From their he can see things the driver and spectator's can't, and use that knowledge to spot problems with the robot, strategy, or driving to help the team improve for the next match. This person can be a student or adult, and can allow some people that never would get up on stage a chance. Its worth noting that I'm a large supporter of a dedicated driving team, and those teams which allow all their students the chance to drive( and therefore have to deal with lots of inexperienced drivers) would probably find the 2nd coach more useful.

driver 2 (me) wasn't needed our robot could be controlled by 1 person our human player was need though he was 6' tall easy for him to put balls over the wall. Lauren our adult was good at watching things and telling us what we needed to do different. but i agree that there wasnt any room
additional student coach for the experience
but give us some space

Didn't they have the human player in the a different spot during the year where they had the center tower that was the multiplier and there were the three scoring racks coming out of the center tower. I think it was 98.

2 coahces 1 coach or none. The drive squad most be able to operate in sync with one another. FIRST gives a max of 2 min. to utilize the stratedgys' your alliance has come up with. Theres no time for messing up. I think the coaches whether 1 or more should be placed in another area on the field. After 2 years of being in a booth with one or more coaches i have noticed that the coaches make you much more nervous then the person next to you piloting the robot. Reason is all you here is yelling and screaming and you can't here your alliance calling to you. Personally. It should be if anything. 1 Human Player. 2 Drivers. and a coach. Its a small booth as it is and it would be a little bit more comfortable to have one coach.

To keep our drivers focused on the driving, and to avoid making them nervous, in the box coaches have the only word on what the robot is going to do. The coach decides, and tells the driver(s) what to do. If it doesn't work, the coach worries about what to do next. This way, there’s less tension; relative calm in the box. We decided to never use adult coaches in our second year, as it seems students kept their cool better under pressure (confident, experienced students), and executed more logical strategies as a result.

The student coach role rotates between 3 or so people, and all three participate in discussions with the other team. Having two coaches in the box would just be clutter for us... but maybe the other could... track score or something…

As one of the coaches, I've seen that drivers really appreciate having something taken off their already heavy backs during matches.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I wouldn't mind seeing a second coach on the field. There are some years in which a second coach would be necssary ie: one coach for the drivers and the other for keeping score ( when you got twice your opponents score and so on). I agree that the coach should be a student. After six years of FIRST and a driver for four years I've seen many coaches that are really hard on the kids. This is a competitive sport but winning is not everything. Winning is not the main point FIRST is trying to teach. Many coaches are about winning and drilling these kids into the ground to the point that I have seen them cry. FIRST is to teach kids the principals of gracious professionalism, science and technology and communication. Many team coaches can't seem to get that into their head and go all out hardcore winning. The students are able to communicate with each other better and they understand each other better. They can talk "kid talk" and be able to be understood. So again I would like to see a second coach as long as it is a student.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

From the Land of the Undead Threads...

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

Right, but this is a topic that could be further debated now, as more time and games have elapsed to make the idea a valid option again.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

More people brings up less agreement.

Simple as that.

If there were two coaches last year one would say "cap the center goal" and then the other said "No, cap the far corner goal". Who does the driver listen to?

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I would like to see every team have 2 student coaches. Im tired of having adult coaches from other teams coming over during the match and informing me what to do, and then getting mad after when i dont do it. If teams were allowed to have 2 coaches i think a lot of teams would have 1 student and 1 adult.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

We never really used a coach until our last 4 matchs this season, last year we didnt use our coach at all except for bringing the cart to the end of the field. I guess it made it alot harder on the drivers (me), cause it was nice when we got a new coach for our last 4 matchs.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

There would be too much arguing between the two coaches, especially if they differ in style. It would be awful to be in the middle of a match as a driver and have one person yelling at you, GO RIGHT GO RIGHT GO RIGHT STOP THAT ROBOT, and the other person on the other side yelling GO LEFT GO LEFT GO LEFT PLAY SOME OFFENSE. It would be like having an angel and a devil on each shoulder except you wouldn't know which was which.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

Wow I didn't even realize this thread was still around, At least one of the many old but good threads are still open to discussion =)

A game like this years and like the last 3 games I still see no reason why 2 coaches are needed. Having 2 coaches in the drivers station really doesn't get much accomplished in a 2M:10S Round, The rounds are very short this year and leave no room to mess up with. By the time a stratedgy is agreed upon - 1/2 to 3/4 of the match would be over and the only thing made clear was pure confusion.

Personally Its hard to operate a robot with just one coach on the field (Student or Adult) To have 2 Coaches on the field would require a bottle of Aleve or Advil and some Halls cough drops. While I think having 2 coaches may be helpful that would be 6 more voices you would hear screaming over one another.

What if FIRST put this into play would that be better and a lil bit more fairer:

A drive team consisting of 2 Student Drivers 1 Student Human Player and 2 Adult or Student Coaches

A Team may have 2 Coaches on the field only if they have no intentions of using the Human Player for that Match [ Basically in order to have 2 coaches on the field you cannot have a human player on the field at all. The Second Coach WILL NOT be allowed to handle any balls whatso ever ]

Specific suggestions as to the 2nd Coaches Duties while on the field
1) Remind the alliance of which will be the backbot
2) Remind the alliance of which round of play they're in (Offense, Defense, Free for all)

While this seems unfair and I'm sure it does Just remember one thing - Only 2 Human Players can be aiming at the end goals at a time so rather having a 3rd human player on the field not doing anything you could trade him in for a round for a second coach to benefit the alliance in letting you guys know whats going on, this also may help with making it a penalty free match.

***ADDED - I Still see no reason to have 2 coaches, I mean if FIRST wants to they can let teams have the option to have 2 coaches but will probably take that feature away if they start to notice that only one coach is being used during the match***

Wow this became real long real quick eh nobodys perfect, any objections to this setup.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I agree with only having one coach.

Our coach currently is in charge of informing the drivers of the time and providing a general direction of what to do.

The match is too short to come up with overly-specific strategies. The drivers just need to react more than anything else.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I disagree with people who disapprove of a second coach, saying it will create confusion for the drive team. Thhis is a problem easily faced by a well coordinated team, and can be safely expected of teams to handle. For example, the driver coach and strategy coach model seems very appropriate. It allows students to participate, and can only do as much harm as teams allow it to.
If your team doesn't need it, it doesn't use it. The same is true of having a single coach or a second driver now.

Please read http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...87&postcount=1

Space is a fair concern.
Anyone with a real argument against a second coach, please speak.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

OK To get things rolling onto the positive side

w/o me trying to bash the comments that were made

Question 1: what would the second coach be doing that the first coach hasn't already taken care of

Question 2: does this game really need that much of a strategy that 2 coaches are required to be on the field during a match

In 2001 Space was a BIG Concern only b/c it was 4 teams on one side per match, I think 2002 is when FIRST decided teams would be then placed diagnoally across from their opponents and it worked so well that FIRST kept it that way for 2003, In 2004 Teams were then placed directly across from one another and that worked well so FIRST kept it that way for 2005 and 2006 and I hope it stays like that through 2007 =)

Basically THERE Should be no reason to use space as an issue.

Back in 2002 when I was alternate driver for my old team - My teachers on the robotics team taught me one thing; during those 2 minutes the only communication your going to have w/ the drive squad is that 6th sense and that is you automatically know what your partner is going to do before they do it if you see them going for the goal you knew to be ready to fire that clamp and lock the goal in place till the match ended or unless told otherwise. During those 2 mintues you can't hear anyone standing behind you or even next to you, all you can do is watch the robots every move and be on your toes.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I'd look at it at from a slightly different perspective.
2: Rather than requiring a second coach, it should only be an option; teams that don't think they'd benefit from it wouldn't use it.
1: While a second coach might not allow new duties to be made, there are several other possibilities. Already existing tasks can be distributed between the two. For example, one coach makes strategic decisions and the other communicates them to the drivers. (Some teams do instruct their drivers, so please no one assume that it is not possible to just because your team does not.) In some cases, the driver-coach is an adult because they can more effectively communicate to the drivers, while a student could quite often be the better choice for coaching strategy.
The largest benefit provided is that it would encourage student participation on the field if the second coach is mandated student-only.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

Ok I can agree with #2 it wouldn't be a bad idea if it were left to the teams as an option to have.

and for #1 well i still don't get why you would need a second coach to relay information when the 1st coach can just driectly communicate the order directly to the drive team. Is there an advantage to going through channels to find out information as opposed to getting it directly? If you said maybe give them a scorekeeping job for the team than i'd start to agree with you but i doubt it only b/c its hard to watch 3 active goals & be able to keep up with the flow of the match.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I don't think that the game requires two coaches; one can handle the job by himself. Any extra, unnecessary people in the booth would just cause confusion. You also run into the very real possibility of conflicting orders.
Another thing I don't understand is why the coach, alone out of all of the drive team, is allowed to be an adult. It's mandatory for high school students to do all the other jobs. Does FIRST not think that we can handle it? I think that the entire drive team should be students. The goal of FIRST is to promote science and technology to students, not engineers.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

Ah, this thread is back again. When I saw the "statistician" in the kickoff video, I thought this meant another member on the drive team. Directing drivers, keeping track of what has actually been scored (particularly on the side of the rack that you can't really see), and yelling over to the other coaches to keep things coordinated will be a much heftier coaching task than in years past. It's similar to 2005 in this respect, but keeping track of the current state of the game takes more than just a glance. I'd welcome another team member in the box.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I think this could be useful but not necessary. I think that instead of the Coach having to be really good at mental math, you could have a math guy as the second coach and be used as a statistician and help us choose where we wanted to place which ringer or spoiler for us to win the match. It is not necessary but it would definitely be useful and I doubt that any team would complain if they added it back.

Pavan.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I think the idea of a statistician other than a coach might not be a bad idea like they hinted on the kickoff video, but having 6 drivers, 3 coaches, and 3 more strategists/coaches in one small alliance zone might be a bit too crowded.

Having the option of 2 coaches I think would be the best idea. High school students should also be allowed to coach, not just s.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

Agreed. That is why 118 by philosophy sends three students to the field and if there were two coaches I bet it would be a fourth student. I think that FIRST is mainly for the students and not as much for the mentors and engineers so students should do more work and the mentors should just help. This having been said, if the mentors were just calculating numbers and coaching where would students learn anything?

Pavan.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I always thought it would be best if Mentors stayed out of the box. I think the team captain and/or the team tactician should be the 'leaders.' Part of FIRST is about teaching real life skills. Managing/leadership is a real life skill. As a mentor I supposedly have these skills already. I want the students on the team to learn them - and practice makes perfect.

On Team 255 (2000 Champs) we carried this philosophy to the extreme. After week one of build no 'adult' was allowed to touch the robot with a tool in their hand.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I would be in favor of it for this year. Espically if the other coach could be positioned not behind the alliance zone but I know that is very much wishful thinking. I don't think the second coach would be needed every year but I do like the second coach being a student.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I don't know if this has been said yet, but, *what if* there was 1 coach from each team, and one nominated coach from those 3 teams who overlooks those 3 coaches?
Sort of like a president of a company, who looks over his/her vice presidents, who look over their employees. A sort of hiearchy...so that there could be more interaction between the 3 bots, and still, one person could have the final say. "There can only be one Captain to a ship"

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

While a novel idea, due to the time constraints in making decisions during an FRC match, I'm not sure how well this would work when implemented.

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

That's true, but it would help to have one person in case one of the team's robots breaks down, or something.

Instead of the two other teams having to think about what they do next, this person has already developed a plan, while the other 2 coaches are still executing the previous plan while the head coach comes up with a new plan for a few seconds (as someone previously mentioned, the coach just keeps the pressure off the driver; all the driver does is drive).

It'd be more of a passive role, I guess, until it's really needed.

But, I see your point in the idea too, and completely agree with you. However, depending on how good of a strategist (is that a word??) the head coach is, this plan could work really well

Re: What if FIRST changed back to 2 coaches?
 

I think that teams would never be able to agree on one team captain. Also communication between the allied teams is notoriously hard. Besides all you would really be doing is adding another layer of communication, thus slowing the process down.
What do you guys think about making a student coach(s) mandatory?