So what happened at the FIRST forum
 

Basically I was just wondering what was discussed at the FIRST forums today. And if there was any hints at what might be presented to us in the future.

Ohh! Ohh! ME too! Someone feel free to share the wisdom!

I'll post my notes from the San Jose Forum later tonight or tomorrow (hopefully). I need a little time to organize my chicken scratch :)

!!!!!!
 

Any word on decisions for qualifying for Nationals in 2003? Are they keeping the same 5 point system? Can you carry over points from previous years? Thanks!

There was no discussion about changing the qualifying or even/odd way of getting into the Championship for 2003 at the San Jose Forum.

imho, it wouldn't be fair at all to odd teams for FIRST to get away from the even/odd system this year. Odd teams would probably feel screwed if FIRST changed the system for 2003. I'm sure FIRST knows this and will stick with that system for at least this upcoming season.

very true, but what about odd teams who qualified this year. Will even teams be able to qualify in the same way for the 2003 games? Any discussion on changing the qualifying for even numbered teams during an odd year's game (2003)!

No news because I didn't go, but it's about time the forums got back to a discussion about something that matters.

Mike

I was in Manchester, and they didn't say there would be any changes to the qualification system, although there was talk of having two Nationals in the future, either two at Epcot or one on the East Coast and one on the West. Both were pie in the sky ideas, but the FIRST people seemed receptive.

These are the notes that I took:

The game will be simpler next year, with no abstract concepts that could cause confusion (such as this past year's entanglement issue). That said, there will be absolutly no rule changes after the kickoff. There is a dedicated game developement team this year, and they started planning the game way in advance so that there is plenty of time to trouble shoot.

The game will be 2 on 2 again, and it was hinted that the playing field itself will be different from last year. They said that they have tried to make the game more TV and spectator friendly, but they also promised that last year.

In a change from last year, FIRST will no longer accept credit cards for shipping -- teams must provide a FedEx or UPS account number.

The 2003 kickoff will be held January 4th, and this year there will be 12-14 remote kickoffs. The remotes may also have workshops at them. The list of sites hasn't been made yet, but places that had a remote kickoff last this year will probably have one again. My suggestion that the Kickoff be held later in the day so West Coast teams don't need to get up at 5:00am was well received.

There will be a total of 22 regionals next year, and a complete schedule will be posted on the FIRST website within the next 10 days or so.

The kit of parts will be very different this year, in that some of it will be shipped out to teams as soon as payment is received (as early as October). The preseason kit of parts will contain software packages, instructional materials, and, most exitingly, EduRobot. EduRobot is the prototyping kit that was used at the Rookie Workshop this year, and is being provided to all teams on an exparimental basis thanks to an anonymous donor. The EduRobot (EduRobotics.com) kit includes a miniature version of the robot controller with built in wireless modem, operator interface, motors with built in speed controllers, erector set parts, connectors, wheels, etc. The robot controller on the EduRobot is the Issac16, which can do everything the FIRST controller can, except it has less motor outputs and sensor inputs.

Other changes to the kit of parts includes better battery chargers, which means 4 amps or higher. The Chiaphua motors will also be obtained directly from Chiaphua, not Atwood, and may contain a more standard output shaft.

The manual will be in three parts, with the administrative part being given out in mid-December.

The Yahoo message board will be gone, and replaced with another outsourced board. They felt that a vBulletin system like this one would be too time consuming to maintain, but they said that the new boards would probably be ad free.

There was some discussion that some pneumatics parts may not be available, but the idea that veteran teams might not get a compressor was met with strong opposition.

The idea was also thrown out there that all teams would be responsible for providing a volunteer to do robot inspection, since the students often know more about the rules than the volunteers do. There would still be official oversight, and an appeals process.

Since Small Parts can no longer handle the load of ~650 FIRST teams, FIRST is working out a deal with "a large supplier with distribution centers all over the US and Canada" to provide a special catalogue of discounted approved parts. They wouldn't name the company, but my first guess would be McMaster Carr.

The IFI controller will be essentially the same. There was no word on whether we will see new controllers that are T1k compliant or whether obsolete team numbers will be reassigned.

FedEx will probably donate shipping, but FIRST will be much more strict about not replacing lost airbills. They will no longer accept handwritten ones. Also, teams are strongly discouraged from shipping robots cross-town -- these complementary airbills are only for teams that cannot drive to the drayage site.

Due to the skull cracking incident, FIRST has been notified by their insurance company that they are no longer allowed to have music, dancing, or fun (just kidding ;)) at the team parties. This was not FIRST's decision, it was the insurance companies. The parties will be shorter, and "any entertainment or activities will be targeted to decompressing the students." Everything from skill competitions to jugglers and talent shows were proposed, but the Team Party (which is now officially called the Team Social) will not resemble those of the rescent past.

There may be four new awards at regionals this year. The first, which is almost a sure thing, is the Regional Animation award. It is not yet decided if winning this will be required to will the national animation award. There will also probably be a Web Site Award. Two other awards were brought up, but all that they have are the names, not definitions. Apparently, a "higher power" suggested the names, but nothing more. These two awards are the Resourcefullness Award and the Communication Award. Many ideas were thrown out as to what these may mean, but nothing was concrete at all.

The judging of awards may also be different this year. It was proposed that all non-technical awards be peer-judged, either using a ballot the way the Play-of-the-Day award does, or using a panel of representatives from each team.

The discussion then went into griping about nationals, but all suggestions were met with "we'll talk to Disney, but don't forget the 7 figure village they build for us."

They have heard our cries!!!:) Just goes to show you they read the FIRST Robotics Wish List thread on this site. So, keep posting your wishes there. Most of this news is really great, thanks for the inside scoop.

A west coast national would rock!!

I'm all for no abstract concepts like triple the losers score. I don't think anyone really fully understood the game this past season.
I interpret "More spectator friendly" as more battle and obstacles.

Jan. 4 for ickoff, can't wait!!! I'm west coast and a later kickoff time would be good so we could capture the whole thing awake.

The EduRobot looks good but if I used it I would get too caught up in making that work that I would lose track of the real project. Good for new members though.

I'm all for better Chiaphuas and battery chargers. I love those Chiaphuas but not their armature output shaft.

Getting some kit and manual stuff early is a good thing to get the ball rolling.

The new industrial supplier idea is great. Small Parts was rapidly turning into Small Inventory. [hope]I hope it's McMaster Carr. [/hope]

They do need a vBulletin or comparable forum. Brandon keeps this one maintained so there's no reason they can't do the same.

We have never used pneumatics before and I would kind of like to based on what I've seen this past year.

The different playing field is great too [hope] Bi-level field [/hope]

Last, I'm cool with the new controller, we could use the smaller size and less cables.

all great news, except for the team party (Boo insurance companies). in florida, we actually had more accidents after the team party...(don't get me into that story)

i wonder how next year's playing field will be. i hope it's more interesting than last years :/

2002 Season Overview
-Rules will be fewer, clearer, and stuck to - one of the writers of the FLL rules is being recruited to help in this.
-There was mention of a game review group...not much detail was given on this, but I assume those who are included know a lot more than what was said...

-As was mentioned in the previous summary, they are already well into the 2003 game...so far, it is designed to be made for tv with quite simple scoring

-All of the Fedex/UPS account info was the same, so I'll leave that alone...

Important Dates:
Kickoff-January 4
Epcot May 1-3
22 total regionals - schedule will be made available in 1-2 weeks

-Significant changes coming in the kit
-4A or better charger assured
-Preseason kit will be shipped when your payment is recieved(no earlier than October 15)...includes the software and the EduRobot.

-Most likely will still be 2v2....
-Event schedule for an individual event will remain
-National qualification will remain the same, with just the needed changes for the regional chairman's award

Web Site Issues:
-was mentioned current site is hard to navigate
-need to make info to contact individual teams easier to get to
-site needs to be kept up to date
-flag new/updated information

-was suggested that mfg. part number is included on the pre-kickoff field component parts list - makes it easier to get parts from other suppliers

Q&A/Yahoo Board
-One main "voice" needed
-Overwhelming support to overhaul Q&A methods
-Perhaps keep a Running list on web site?
-set up question submission form which requires topic of question and rule or section which it applies to
-possibly expand phone availability hours, maybe just during last week?

CD/Manual
-consensus was that CD was very useful
-provide 2 sets of prints for field
-maybe a 3d model of field?
-add capability to search manual as a whole
-make sure motor data is accurate
-include control system manual/software tools on CD

Inspections
-possibly get team members to perform inspection
-minimize what is being looked for
-spot checks as going on/off field
-re-weigh before finals
-specialize inspectors(mech/elec/pneu)

-Some power-related issues with control system
-Impact tripping of breaker
-standardize connectors across all IFI components
-possibly internally connect or pre-supply connectors for Victor fan
-what about an IFI-supplied valve driver(diodes, etc. pre-built)?

Autodesk
-better training needed
-judging improvements needed
-what about using other software?
-what about getting a site license?
-have an animation viewing location at all sites

Carpet Damage
-looking at possible alternate surfaces, however, carpet is liked for various reasons
-was suggested limit materials which could contact ground (i.e. no metal)

Pneumatics
-add rodless cylinder
-more flexability in what could be used - team sponsors want to be able to use their own brand
-more valves
-check valve specifically suggested

-it was suggested that more in the way of prefab components(gearboxes, etc.) be allowed...much discussion on this, no clear consensus

Shipping
-Fedex overwhelming a good thing
-many issues with drayage, esp. at Epcot

-There will be a mandatory review of contact information during registration this year
-event registration will be staggered as follows:
*Sep 3 - open to update contact data only
*Oct 1 - open to register for 1st regional and championship(if qualified)
*Nov 3 - 2nd regional and beyond
* Dec 6 - registration closes
*Dec 10 - 1st event payment due
*Feb 14 - final payment due
Regionals between Mar 4 - Apr 12

There was a lot more discussed, but this is what I had jotted down as being important...

What is a rodless pneumatic cylinder? Also, I don't know about the prefab gearboxes. We had much trouble making one with the chias and drills combined but I think prefab mechanisms would take away from the whole idea and experience FIRST is trying to portray.

:D w00t!!! Nats 2003 here I come!!!! :D

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!
 

REGIONAL ANIMATION AWARD!!!!!!!!!!
I can't contain my excitement!
This absolutely rocks!

ugh, i don't like one more thing i heard. if they keep pushing nats back, it will be during APs, and that will extremely screw over many people. i say that if they're gona push nats back anymore, they need to jump back to after APs, for two reasons.

1) No crazed students taking 4 or 5 APs, who are also very important to the team, goign insane at nats because of the study/work load.

2) Makes everyone's lives who take APs much easier. instead of worrying about APs at nats, you just relax and purge your mind of all unimportant information :D.

the other idea is to push nats forward somemore, but i don't know how that would work. of course, the last idea is for the stupid college board to push APs back, but they've monopolized the industry, so they dont' give a @#$!$@#$!$@#$!$@#$!$ to other people's needs. so dean, woody, who ever from FIRST that is reading this, please reconsider the timing of nats this year, and if it's impossible to change this year, at least try to make it after APs next year. thanks.

By not pushing nationals back, they were screwing people as well. This past year, the Championship was during finals week for most colleges and universities so all of the college and university teams were put in a real tough spot. I was lucky in that my final was the day before I had to leave for nationals.

I guess no matter what date you pick, someone is going to be screwed.

No matter what, someone will always be unhappy. I thik they are making a wise decision, because the first of May the prices drop in FL, and everything should be more reasonable for teams. Also, if you are smart/crazy enough to take that many AP's, you probably don't need to study. Somewhere there will be something going on that time of year. Everything is beginning to wrap up after April.

Pushing the time later for the sanity of our west coast friends was something brought up at one of the east coast forums(MI to be specific), and nobody really had a problem with it...

As far as a new system for Q&A/forum goes, there was a few ideas kicked around...[alt+tab to dreamweaver]hmmm, this might work...[alt+tab back to IE]

One thing about the EduRobot system which was made very clear at the MI forum is that it is for training purposes only, you would still have the full system(which is being improved as well) to use on your main robot, and the EduRobot controller would be explicitly disallowed on your competition season machine.

I know about the EduRobot. When I said new controller I was referring to the Issac 16 with integrated radio. 1 less 6 ft. serial cable.

We're still getting the full version control system...the Issac 16 is the version which comes with the edurobot...however, I do know that an integrated radio system for the controllers we actually use in our robots is in the works as well...whether or not it will be ready for this year, i'm not sure...

One thing I can say is that at this point, it is very unlikely(read: almost impossible) that the dates for the Championship will be moved. As FIRST is moving forward in finalizing the schedule, I do know that several venue contracts have already been signed, and I have a feeling that Epcot is one of them...

Sorry if I was unclear. The Issac 16 is the EduRobot controller, and is not being considered as a replacement for the FIRST robot controller.

Also, at least at Manchester, they said that the May 1-3 dates for nationals were very tentative at this point.

Actually, late April/early May is the beginning of Disney's 'Regular' pricing season. Prices go up, not down.

Hmm, I don't know... from my sources (my parents) they go every year, and I know they always wait until the beginning of May to leave, because Motels are cheaper. During March and April, prices are up because of Spring Breakers.

Well, I don't know about hotels outside of Walt Disney World property because I don't usually stay in them.

As per Disney, though, the regular season at Value and Moderate resorts begins on April 21, meaning the prices go up.

but, what about group rates? if FIRSTers reserved some number of rooms, they give a discount, and a few extra bucks is worth it. i'd rather pay a lot more than worry about all my AP teachers flipping out on me.

we can't use issac 16's in the robot, they lack a lot of the features the issac 32's that we use have

Here are my notes from the San Jose Team Forum. Sorry if it's hard to follow. This is the first year I actually took notes :).


FIRST realizes that they need to make changes. They’re expanding their game design group, and starting earlier this year. They’re looking for loopholes to proposed rules within this group. The manual should be released in the first half of December, minus the “Game” section. They’re planning on italicizing changes. FedEx is still up in the air. January 4 is the Kickoff date, with 11+ remote kickoffs. There will be at least 22 Regionals in 2003, new locations being Annapolis, Phoenix, Atlanta, and Pittsburgh, and Manchester (there’s a possibility, however it’s unlikely, that one or two more may be added). The even schedule will be posted on the FIRST website within the next week or shortly thereafter. Seattle will be on the same week as Los Angeles. The Championship (apparently Nationals pisses off the Canadians, Brazilians, English, etc ;)) will most likely be May 1-3. The game will be a competitive one, most likely 2v2 (this was met with a resounding approval from the crowd). The field perimeter and carpet are expected to be the same as the past year. Bob Hammond said that FIRST hesitates to change the flooring because it doesn’t seem fair to force ~500 teams to have to buy an expensive alternative to carpet. The B.O.M for the key obstacles/goals will be released early this year as well.

Website:
- The website needs a clear sitemap. It also takes too long to find information.
- Maybe using a headline system on the front page would make info easier to find.
- .html (searchable) and .pdf manual would be nice.
- Can FIRST post photos of the obstacles and goals?

Yahoo Board:
- The entire crowd thought it was a step backwards.
- Conflicting answers
- No Authoritative voice from FIRST
- The ads were annoying
- Update system worked fine. We’d prefer the updates to come out every Monday and Thursday. Even if there’s no new information. Just say “Update #4... No new information.” This way we know when to look for an update. Don’t have updates come out on Friday. We would like to be able to call FIRST and get clarification on an update.

Manual:
- The CD’s were wonderful
- We told FIRST to stick to the rules, no matter how much we complain about them.
- Everyone liked and made use of the Inspection Checklist.

Calling FIRST:
- Apparently someone answering the 1-800 # was rude to a couple people.
- It would help West Coast teams if we could call FIRST until 5pm PT

FIRST Contacting Teams:
- We would like there to be more than 1 “Main Contact” for each team.
- When “Main Contact” emails are sent, post the email or a notification on the FIRST website.

Kits of Parts:
- FIRST said that no more 1A battery chargers will be in the kit. They were a mistake.
- We like the idea of Rookie Kits.
- Chargers are ok to omit from 3+ year veteran teams.
- We thought it'd be ok if the pneumatic compressor was shipped to a veteran team when they ordered their cylinders.
- We would like FIRST to release a B.O.M. of the kit and/or additional hardware list before the kickoff.

Inspectors:
- They are hard to train, and are inconsistent.
- FIRST floated the idea of having team personnel inspect
- A video for inspectors, or a FIRST built robot with all sub-systems may help inspectors.
- Spot inspections can be done to teams at random before or after a match.
- Robots will be re-weighed throughout the competition

Carpet Damage:
- It was brought up that even an unmodified Skyway wheel could melt through carpet.
- FIRST should give teams a list of materials which is allowed to come into contact with the flooring.
- Test wheels as part of our inspection.
- Enforcement of “Carpet Damage” rules is needed. Tough love.
- Maybe a minimum clearance for frames is needed?
- If there is a min. clearance, then there should be no robot lifting.

Spare Parts:
- One team had to buy a Bosch transmission.
- In response to the previous statement... FIRST: “Don’t worry, it won’t be there this year”
- Training for volunteers needed.
- Priority should be given to rookie teams.
- Teams lose light lenses. Maybe if they were at the players stations with extras at the field it would decrease cost to FIRST.

Pneumatics:
- Overwhelming usage of pneumatics.
- Having different control valves would be nice.
- Using “normally open” as opposed to “normally closed” pressure switches would also be nice.
- The pumps drew more current this year for some reason.

SPI:
- FIRST realizes that they have outgrown SPI.
- FIRST is in negotiations for an $800,000 account with a larger company.
- We want online ordering.
- We would like FIRST to tell them what we can’t use from the catalogs.

IFI:
- We would like them to add shrouds to the Relays and RC (like the ones on the Speed Controllers).

Autodesk:
- We think that the communication is bad. It’s slow and not public.

FedEx / Shipping:
- It was near impossible to ship between events on consecutive weeks, since they don’t pick up on Saturday.
- We would like to be able to contact teams going to the same event the following week and be able to make alternate shipping arrangements ahead of time (i.e. Renting a truck).
- It would be nice if FIRST could have .pdf shipping labels on their website.
- FIRST was very upset about forged shipping with their FedEx code. They will not allow handwritten shipping labels.
- We think that forcing teams to ship directly from event to event is a great idea.

Registration:
- On Sept. 3 the registration system will open up so that teams may edit their data.
- Registration will be staggered this year.
- Oct. 3 = 1 event per team
- ~ Oct. 29 = 2nd event per team
- ~ Nov. 26 = 3rd or more event per team
- FIRST will send your contact info to other teams attending your events if you authorize them to do so.
- We would like to input multiple email addresses per contact in the registration system.
- We would also like the “General Blast” emails to be on a subscribe basis.

Gracious Professionalism:
- We thought that part of the problem may be that some kids may lack a sense of ownership of the robot.
- Some people thought that the tether incident this year makes it harder for adults to tell the students that they shouldn’t overstep boundaries of the rules.
- Someone said that the kids understood Gracious Professionalism, it was the adults who didn’t. Maybe a code of conduct is needed?
- FIRST was upset about reports of teams throwing matches.

Team Party:
- FIRST is going to change the name to the “Team Dinner” or “Team Social.” There will be no dancing. The time will be limited to 2.5-3 hours. There must be at least 1 adult per 10 students in attendance, and activities will be aimed at decompressing people.
- Someone thought that maybe it should be held at Dave & Busters.

Kickoff:
- We thought Remote Kickoffs were a success.
- We would appreciate the time of the kickoff to be moved back by 2 hours.
- We would also like to have FIRST sponsored workshops on the Friday before the kickoff. Or a video feed and materials from NH.

Awards:
- We thought the Regional Chairman’s Award was wonderful.
- We want the Chairman’s Awards submission date moved back until after the robot is shipped. We want to have our finished robot in the submission.
- FIRST told us they were looking at 4 new awards. Wether or not they’d count towards qualifying to the Championship is still TBD.
- Regional Website Award
- Regional Animation Award
- Resourcefulness Award
- Communications Award
- Apparently they’re tossing around the idea of a Safety Award as well.


Silicon Valley Regional:
- We liked the pits alternating rookies with veteran teams.
- We thought the team party was great.
- We liked the team viewing area.
- It would be nice if teams were given a pit-map.
- Knowing your partner / opponent ahead of time was great.

Los Angeles Regional:
- Someone thought the machine shop was too far away.
- The team viewing area needed to be marked better.
- Knowing your partner / opponent ahead of time was great.

Championship:
- We liked the lower number of teams attending.
- Rotating fields was a pain.
- FIRST said that it would be too expensive to go back to 5 fields (2001).
- We would like there to be clarification if the rotation is kept. It wasn’t clear on TV.
- Knowing your partner / opponent ahead of time was great.

Award Ceremony:
- We think it wasn’t necessary to have an entire team go up and get an award.
- We’d like the Award Ceremony interlaced with the Semi-Finals / Finals.
- We want to get through the ceremony fast and get into EPCOT or back to our hotels.
- We thought that the video from 2001 was better than Mandy Moore.
- We were disappointed that EPCOT closed all of the fun attractions.
- The food has improved over the past 2 years.
- We would like busses to take some of us back to the hotels from the morning drop off point. It was a pain to drag heavy equipment over to the EPCOT bus station.

I just found my second page of notes from what the IT guy said, and, while most of what was there has already been covered, this is what was new:

FIRST will be keeping there offices open until 8pm EST during the season. The staff was already groaning about having to work longer shifts, but it sounded like a done deal.

FIRST will add a school administrative contact to the information management system, since many school's have a principal or superintendant who isn't involved with the team, but wants to be the main contact. They will also add a link to the TIMS from the front page.

FIRST will require teams to check their contact information before reregistering.

FIRST Email "Blasts" will probably be posted online, as well as being sent to the main and alternate contacts (and perhaps other contacts). This was met with general acceptance, but a few people felt very strongly that they didn't want their team members seeing that traffic, something about making FIRST too easy prohibiting them from learning from the experience. FIRST was surprised by that, but said that they would consider alternatives, such as locating the "Blasts" archive behind the TIMS login. Another alternative proposed was just posting the links from the "Blasts," not the "Blasts" themselves, on the web.

FIRST is considering a "frequently used links" section to the front page, which would link to stuff like the manual and schedules.

FIRST is also considering putting pictures and QuicktimeVR movies of the field and playing objects on the website.

What is TIMS? Also, please make the movies on the website available in a Windows Media Player compatibel format like .wmv or .mpeg or .avi. Quicktime can do some strange things to a PC.

On the topic of food, I feel that this is quite a problem at the LA Regional. While there were sufficient fast food places nearby, there weren't inside the event site. We were not allowed to bring any food at all into the arena and were forced to pay for overpriced sodas and very old pretzels. Come on... 5 grand for that? We have how many kinds who are in there all day for each of the three days and it'd be nice if we could bring in our own food to have something decent to eat.

TIMS is Team Information Management System, where all your team info is kept and updated through.

i agree with the food complaints. the food at the long island regional was very bad too, and i heard the epcot food at the party wasn't worth eating

In response to food problems with either San Jose or Los Angeles... In order for FIRST to be able to use the San Jose State Event Centre or the Los Angeles Memorial Sports Arena they have to sign a contract which includes a stipulation that the only foods/beverages that people can consume onsite are ones purchased through the vendors in the building. Yes, they're over priced and it's a pain. But you've got to deal with it, because there's nothing FIRST can do about it. What people have done in the past, and most likely will continue to do is sneaking food into the arenas. My understanding is.. the only food that the Regional has any control over is in some cases the food at the Team Dinner.

I didnt think the food at long island was that bad why did you say that i have heard others say this as well and i was just wondering why everyone is saying this

the food at the UTC regional in New Haven was bad and it was overpriced. by the end of the weekend most people had found a deli/little market place where there was decent food from what i had heard i didnt know about it until the last day but whatever and most people by saturday knew of the soda machines upstairs in the parking garage which where still pricey but not as bad as inside

well, you guys think you had a problem of bad/over-priced food, at least you had food. at NYC, there were no food vendors within the competition site. none, not even one from columbia. luckily we found a really good deli, and everyday we had to count up who wanted what, and send a few people over to get it. became quite annoying, but it was good priced and good food.

Mid Atlantic Regional - go outside of the arena, walk down the street that goes by the student center and the cafe place, continue for close to a half a mile, and they have these little kiosk things set up. Now it may be me because I live in the middle of nowhere, but they have the nifftiest sandwiches I have ever seen. You get a 'fast food' sandwich, there are wbout 15 to choose from that are all called 'Fat ________', not only do you get the sandwich, but inside the sandwich is also fries. These things are huge, and you don't have to wait around to get food either unlike the cave.

3ds Max
 

Was it discussed about giving out more than one max license? Personally, i don't know how anyone but one person could learn max at the same time w/o sharing a computer. And so, i think that first really needs to rethink the one license otherwise teams need to buy extras which are about $500 - A lot for teams w/ small ammounts of extra cash. Or at least give teams extra "learner" licenses like they have for Inventor (At least i think they do.)

Just a thought for FIRST

Did they mention anything else about the kit of parts? other than a more standard shaft on the chipuwah motors? Did they actually say that they are going to add another reserve tank to the kit and reverse the celenoids from always shut to always open?
What pneumatics parts were they referring to when they said some might not be availiable next year?

I don't think there should be different kits for rookie teams. It seems kind of unfair. We could always use another battery charger or compressorn anyway. Besides, if we didn't need them, we could just sell them on eBay to earn a couple extra bucks.

eBay - The World's Online Marketplace

sanddrag:

You've got to look at all of this from FIRST's point of view. It takes on the order of $250,000 to run a regional event, plus they have to pay people to work for them. They've got to look at any way they can cut a few expenses here and there. The battery chargers and the compressors are extremely expensive parts of the kit.

If they only had to hand out ~250-300 chargers to 3yr veterans and younger that would save them a ton of money. The compressor is also very expensive to supply, which is why at the SJ Forum we suggested that with regards to 3 yr+ teams, FIRST only send out the compressor to teams who order cylinders. So basically, what we suggested wouldn't necessarily be a "rookie kit", but a 3 yr and younger kit, in which a team would receive every component. What are your thoughts on that?

-Bill


<edit>
btw, if you feel strongly about these issues then you should probably attend yourself, or have your team send a representative or 2 to the Forum next year. You're from CA, San Jose isn't that expensive to visit for a day. It's kinda like $@#$@#$@#$@#$@#ing about taxation w/o representation, but in this case it's up to your teams to represent yourselves. It's not as hard as it used to be when the single forum was held in Manchester.
</edit>

AP Schedule
 

Being an AP teacher I talk to the AP (ETS) people on a regular basis. There is no way they CAN change that schedule. Earlier and they run into two problems. One is that there is not enough time to cover the matterial and two is that the places they use for grading are not available earlier. They can't move the dates later because a lot of schools would be closed by then. Plus they need time to grade the exams (it takes a couple of weeks believe it or not) in a timely manner so they can get the results to colleges and the like.

Personally the current Championship dates work great for me. It's during April vacation so I and my students do not miss school for it.

BTW I would think about running AP CS review sessions in Orlando if anyone was interested. Fat chance of many being interested in anything but robots there and then though. :)

Bill- regarding the "rookie kit"-

part of the competition's consistency is that all teams get the same kit to begin with and all PAY THE SAME PRICE. If FIRST wants to ship a stripped down kit to senior teams who request them, let them knock $1000 off the registration fee. Otherwise everyone should get the same setup.

If you have usable equipment from past years more power to you- you paid for it already!

If they really want to be progressive, give a list of equipment teams can choose from for your own design. I have a closet full of pneumatics we have never used. I sure could use more chargers though.

WC

(PS- I think the May date for Orlando is great. And I teach AP courses- we always manage to survive one way or the other )

Was anything said at any of the forums about shipping the Autodesk and Microsoft as soon as the team register? Also was anything said about clarification of the copyrighted music usage in the animations?

CRAP! (sorry about that).. I just got my school calendar in the mail and according to it IB exams begin on May 2nd, 2003 and end on May 16, 2003. I guess I won't be going to nationals next year, unless of course I quit IB.. what a bad day this is.

[Edit]I scanned the schedule sent to me and it can be viewed here: Schedule. The image is about 200KB and its dimensions are 757x1024 (that should be a 30-45 second download on a 56.6Kbps modem).[/Edit]

Re: AP Schedule
 

the only problem is that i'm taking more than one or two APs. also, many people have nothing to do after APs. sure, i have regents, but those are a joke. from ~may 14 - 20 (whenever AP week is over) till the end of june, i sit in school and goof off. what better thing to do than go to florida. not only do i not miss important stuff, but i get to wind down from APs, and have the best time of my life. i feel that robotics is much more important to me than a standerdized test, but the @#$!$@#$!$@#$!$@#$!$ college board has a monopoly on tests, so i'm screwed in that sense :(.

I think it still will be that you can't use copyrighted w/o permission, otherwise first could never play your anamation in public w/o being in violation of copyright. Also, i read that some (or mabey all) software will be sent out in Oct. But this may be just a rumor.

What I gathered from what was said at the MI forum was that all of the software would be sent out in the pre-season kit, which means it would be shipped to you as soon as you had paid for your first event. However, historically, the Autodesk software has always come separately direct from Autodesk, so it's hard to say how they're going to handle this...

I don't know if you'll STILL not be able to, since we heard a bunch of copyrighted music in last year's animations.

FIRST forums
 

Hey, when is the next FIRST forum going to be held?

The Team Forums are held once a year during the summer.

Yes there was a lot of illegally used music in animations, but I know for a fact some teams got permission to use them...so its legal then

actually, they changed the rule on that for this year. they said you can use any music you want only if you give the artist/ group credit for it.

2002 Competition or next years?

who said this, when was it said, where in the doccumentation. My version of the manual said some music is copyrighted and judges are looking for infringements. This seems to say no copyrighted music

i could have sworn that i saw it in either an update, or on the Yahoo! Message Board. I'll keep searching.

Any idea when the summary is coming out?

I think this was for the chairman's award submissions, not the animations. I believe it's different b/c Autodesk wants to use the animations for promo stuff, while the chairman's award stuff isn't.

At the MI forum, they said to give them a couple weeks...they had to combine the notes from all of the sites...