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-   -   Frame Perimeter when climbing tower? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141766)

rich2202 15-01-2016 09:00
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
In practice the Frame Perimeter rule is more enforced by RI's than the Ref's. The Ref's are not about to take out a tape measure and walk onto the field during play. The RI's will check for maximum extension during the inspection process. They will look at the robot as it is sitting on the ground.

martin417 15-01-2016 09:25
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1524115)
In practice the Frame Perimeter rule is more enforced by RI's than the Ref's. The Ref's are not about to take out a tape measure and walk onto the field during play. The RI's will check for maximum extension during the inspection process. They will look at the robot as it is sitting on the ground.
Not really. Just because an appendage CAN extend beyond 15" doesn't mean that it WILL.

Richard Wallace 15-01-2016 09:35
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martin417 (Post 1524126)
Not really. Just because an appendage CAN extend beyond 15" doesn't mean that it WILL.
Correct.

Many Head Refs ask the LRI to provide a list of robots (based on inspection) that are mechanically capable of extending beyond what the game rules allow, so that refs can be advised to watch at critical moments when one of those robots is playing.

Whether the robot actually does extend too far during a match is a call for ref to make. If a ref sees it happen, the infraction should be called.

philso 15-01-2016 09:52
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBasse (Post 1524085)
I like this rule. It's just like climbing in 2013, the cylinder made it tough, then they made that cylinder move with the robot and it got a lot easier. This time the perimeter moving with the robot actually makes it harder. Remember, this is an engineering challenge. If scaling were easy, everyone would do it and nobody would be impressed. But now, it is just complicated enough that you can't just toss a hook up there and winch yourself up. Good work GDC, good work.

To the OP, what combo of cylinders were you planning to use to curl yourself 90 degrees?
Yes! This is why it is "The Hardest Fun You Can Have". If it was so easy that everyone can climb to the top of the pyramid in 6~7 seconds like 254 did in 2014, how inspirational would any of this be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Wallace (Post 1524129)
Correct.

Many Head Refs ask the LRI to provide a list of robots (based on inspection) that are mechanically capable of extending beyond what the game rules allow, so that refs can be advised to watch at critical moments when one of those robots is playing.

Whether the robot actually does extend too far during a match is a call for ref to make. If a ref sees it happen, the infraction should be called.
Quite a few people posting on this thread have indicated that it should not be necessary to extend more than 15" beyond the frame perimeter to scale the tower. If a team verifies for themselves that this is true and has a mechanism that can extend beyond the 15" limit, it might be a good idea for them to add a mechanical limit. It is usually a good idea to "just not attract the attention of the Authorities" in the first place.

Justin Montois 15-01-2016 14:13
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martin417 (Post 1524103)
The length of the robot makes no difference. You also do not need to touch the wall of the tower as in your sketch, just reach over the rung.
Not sure why you think that. The sketch below demonstrates the longer your wheel base is, the easier it will be to stay within the 15" rule while attempting to scale.

Oblarg 15-01-2016 14:40
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1524104)
The rung you are grabbing onto is not flush with the tower walll. It sticks out, everyone should be well with in the 15 in limit when grabbing the rung. Now how you pull up your robot to stay with in the rules is another matter.
You may well want to use the face of the tower as a guide for your mechanism to ensure it grabs the rung.

Note that, as per the math I posted earlier, this should be possible without exceeding the limit. But you have to be careful, since it will be close.

Jared 15-01-2016 14:53
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Montois (Post 1524320)
Not sure why you think that. The sketch below demonstrates the longer your wheel base is, the easier it will be to stay within the 15" rule while attempting to scale.
The ramp on the batter is 48" long, so I don't think many teams will have robots contact the carpet while they are grabbing a rung.

martin417 15-01-2016 14:59
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Montois (Post 1524320)
Not sure why you think that. The sketch below demonstrates the longer your wheel base is, the easier it will be to stay within the 15" rule while attempting to scale.
So, you plan to build a robot that is excess of 48" in length? Then you will be less than 12 inches in width. I doubt you would make it to the tower before you fell over, so climbing becomes a moot point. I should have said that

"within the design constraints of a reasonable robot that can play the game, length makes no difference."

Crew Cox 16-01-2016 00:12
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Thanks for all the support guys, glad I asked. This is going to be a heck of a game for the refs to keep track of.

Oblarg 16-01-2016 00:59
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Honestly, I hope the refs have some device for measuring this if they're going to be strict about calling it, because there's absolutely no way that anyone is going to be able to discern with their naked eye whether a ~6' tall climbing extension is angled just enough to be violating this rule.

If this is called purely by eye, either nothing close will be called or there will be a lot of wrong calls.

Robosparks2926 16-01-2016 12:51
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
can the wheel protrude outside the wheel base?

cpapplefamily 16-01-2016 13:11
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
1 Attachment(s)
I have been modeling this as well. Seems to me that if the front of your frame projected to the ramp is < 6.3" from the wall face any reach for the bar should adhere to all the rules of 15" beyond the perimeter during the reach. How your robot folds up during the lift is up to you. If only reaching for the bar you can be < 10.5" Your reach should be ok.

I modeled with the Team Prints for the Chin up bar.

GaryVoshol 16-01-2016 14:33
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robosparks2926 (Post 1524818)
can the wheel protrude outside the wheel base?
Please clarify your question. There is no definition of "wheel base" in the rules. So we go to the real world definition of wheel base, and it's defined as the distance between wheels. Actually it's center-to-center distance. So you can look at it, that your wheels are always outside your wheel base (the leading and trailing parts of the wheels).

cpapplefamily 16-01-2016 15:16
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingod (Post 1524076)
Note: I understand that the rule is possible to change.

I showed my teammate this thread and tried to explain it to them and they couldn't really understand what rule you guys were exactly debating so I made crappy cartoon diagram in MS paint that might be useful if you're ever debating with a teammate about this rule for whatever reason.

http://i.imgur.com/SIZCRUt.png

(I don't think the rule is super dumb. I don't think any rules are dumb, rules are rules. I just put that last bit in there for laughs by my team)
Saving our reveal till an appropriate time but I'm confident we have this. Hope they leave the rule alone::rtm::

Tom Bottiglieri 19-01-2016 19:39
Re: Frame Perimeter when climbing tower?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBasse (Post 1524085)
I like this rule. It's just like climbing in 2013, the cylinder made it tough, then they made that cylinder move with the robot and it got a lot easier. This time the perimeter moving with the robot actually makes it harder. Remember, this is an engineering challenge. If scaling were easy, everyone would do it and nobody would be impressed.
For ten points?


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