Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Really disappointed they didn't fix G18 for climbing. This task is going to be very hard.

Looks like getting off a couple extra shots and challenging may be the way to go.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

If it were easy it wouldn't be worth triple the points, right?

We've been trying to come up with ideas that allow for shorter robots that will have a low potential of violating this rule. It is challenging.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

I'm confused about the complaint of extreme difficulty. Ri3D 1.0 looks like they've built a legal mechanism, or one that could very easily be made legal with a bit of frame extension on the front. It doesn't seem all that complicated for a tall robot, really. Now is it complicated for a short robot? Yes. But I suspect the GDC wanted to encourage a bit of innovation and effort beyond just copying tape measures from 2010.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

The updates to G25 and G40-1 Really nerfed some of the innovative strategy ideas. I guess they really want us to play this game as it was intended.

My question regarding G28 is this: If you can't contact an opponent in your courtyard, regardless of who initiates contact, how does G11 apply? It seems that G28 takes precedence, which means an opposing robot can cause the other alliance to foul without recourse.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

If they aren't even trying to hang, then I think I could make a pretty good case to call for G11. Or, to be even more obvious, if they're chasing you around trying to make contact, and G11 isn't called, it might be time to have a chat with the Head Referee.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

RE: updates to G25 and G40, I think the last time anyone played chicken with the GDC and won was 469 in 2010. These rule changes were coming.

RE: G28, I assume that is the case, but that is something that a Q&A could help codify. They don't want a robot blocking a challenge or scale, they want that robot challenging/scaling. Very 2011-esque rule, but that's probably how it works.

EDIT: Eric has a better handle on it... if that kind oif action he mentioned is repeated, it probably even ventures into a T6. The GDC doesn't want robots intentionally ignoring the opportunity to challenge by either screening up robots in the courtyard or chasing each other in the box.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

:ahh:The G11 blue box seems to make that pretty clear. It's a G28 penalty unless the team that would benefit from the G28 is clearly only trying to draw a penalty and not try to, say, CHALLENGE or SCALE or score a boulder.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Good points all, thanks for clarifying. Wil and Kevin, I probably should have thrown a bit of sarcasm behind my statement, I figured these two areas were going to get fixed, it's just interesting to see how they resolved it.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

I get that the GDC wants robots to play the game and challenge the tower themselves; however, I feel like it stifles late qualification round strategies of trying to limit your opponents getting additional ranking points and potentially overtaking you in the rankings. For example if your up on a team in the opposing alliance by 3 RP's. Your opponent is winning the game by more points than you could possibly score by trying to challenge yourself and their tower isn't weakened so no extra RP for you. It would make more since to try and deny your opponent the extra RP from capturing your tower rather than uselessly gaining game points for yourself.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Can someone explain the update to G25 a bit better for me? Any extensions from outside the Secret Passage that can block multiple openings would be longer than 15" and blocking both openings from inside the Secret Passage puts you at a huge risk for a Technical Foul. I don't see how this new rule changes anything.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

There were discussion on having a robot stand outside the secret passage and block the openings in order to control the game (see discussion here).

There are still ways to make that concept work, but they just got a lot less likely to succeed.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

How do you post a question to the Q&A? I created an account on Thursday, got the e-mail, verified, saw a web page that said I had full access, and logged in, but I can't find any place to ask a new question. Is the control hidden somewhere in plain sight?

• The Q&A tab looks the same as before
• The Team Questions tab says "Your request is in pending state"
• The My Account tab says
  • Account Information (with info)
  • Change Password (with blocks for that)
  • User Settings (with two check boxes)
  • Questions I'm Following (with an empty table, as I have not followed any questions)

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

You use the account info in TIMS, don't create one with your personal info. Personal accounts basically let you follow questions and that's about it.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Thanks. I just thought they were anonymizing the names of those posting questions. Can any of the mentors/contacts associated with a team get this from TIMS, or just the primary and alternate? I don't see where the password would be.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

It's only available to the team's Main Contact and Alternate Contact.
I think the intention is to only have one person per team collecting and submitting questions, but a team can designate anyone to do that job.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

I am a mentor, and I had to get the info from the Primary.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

It's important early in the season to consider it as a extra build time vs extra value decision rather than end-value.

The decision to put time and effort into SCALING is only 10 points over CHALLENGING.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Team 3042 has published our thoughts on strategy on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXxx-IzsraM
We discuss our plans for building and strategy this season and we also discuss interactions that we expect during matches.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

I disagree. They defined the task as HARD.
I truly believe that they were looking to ensure that 1 robot cannot "do it all". (although, there may still be a few that can :yikes: )

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

OK, now I have the team password and I'm in, but I still don't see where to enter new questions. The "Team Questions" tab has a search function, and there's a new "Member Account" tab I added myself to. I still don't see how to ask a new question!

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

I believe you need to: type your question in the search box, search it, and then a button should appear letting you ask the question.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Teams that know they will "run out of points" in this game should and will attempt scaling.

Teams that don't know they will "run out of points" in this game should not attempt scaling.

Teams that don't know which of these categories they fall into should definitely be in column B, but some of them will try to be in column A. That makes things interesting.

*this serves as a small personal window into my subjective analysis of the game and you can weight my opinion based on a variety of available data, including my team's record if you want to easily discredit this observation

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Category A will also have teams who (mistakenly) think they have to try to scale the whole 6', rather than just 1.5'.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

1.5"? Don't bumpers need to be above the low goal for scaling to count?

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

The change to G28 is interesting to me. Defensive strategies were already barely viable, and the change makes defense an even worse option. I expect to see defensive bots entirely abandoned. I'll risk a tortuga if it means the other team isn't getting free G28s. G40-1 is disappointing, but not surprising. I still expect the ramparts to me used in slot 2 as an inbound method, at some point.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Completely aside, but I just noticed 118 has a Q&A that can be summarized: "Were you serious about that G18 thing?"

I asked Q504 fully expecting the given answer. I am proud to have been correct and apparently ruined 118's day.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Corrected mistake... 1.5feet if the bottom of your bumper is 6inches off the ground.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

I disagree, because the teams that are scoring points at a decent clip to justify scaling are usually operating at a high level because they are detail-oriented (among other positive qualities).

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Does anything prevent you from hanging this way for 10 points? Take a foul to make design simpler? The 'if repeated robot will be disabled' clause is pretty vague, repeated within the match? Repeated match to match? Perhaps a Q&A question.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Given that Frank has said the GDC never wants teams intentionally taking fouls, I'm pretty certain what their response to that Q&A question will be.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

You might want to follow Q589

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

let's be honest Hot won't be taking a penalty to get the extra 10 points. Hot doesn't do simple.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Particularly when one of those two rules is an immediate disable for violating it, no "repeated" about it.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Very glad I came across this before we built something. G18 ruins a lot of very innovative designs. I cannot understand why they don't want teams rotating to hang. It worked very well for some teams in 2010.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

To be clear. it is not that you can't rotate, it can't violate the extension 15" beyond the frame perimeter rule.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Or...G18 stimulates a lot of very, very innovative designs:D

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Exactly. G18 makes it harder, which is reason enough to make the rule!

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

This. My students have come up with an interesting design for a Swiss Army... Arm. That includes scaling while staying inside the 15" envelope.

Also, G18 doesn't prevent rotating to hang. I keep saying that Ri3D 1.0's scaling mechanism looks G18 legal or easily made so, and they do a 90 degree curl to scale. I get the feeling that when people are complaining about it restricting innovative designs, they mean it restricts innovative designs they've seen work before in other competitions.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Brilliant engineering is both simple and effective, and results in a reliable product. I'd say The HOT Team does "simple" better than most.

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

Simplicity on the other side of complexity is a measure of great design. Woodie Flowers talked about this in a kickoff presentation* a few years ago.

Craftsmen, athletes, artists, lecturers, barristers, engineers, or racing teams performing at the top of their games often make it look easy. That practiced ease comes only after a lot of hard work. It too is the simplicity on the other side of complexity.
---------
*Was it really 2008? Time flies....

Re: Team Update 2 (2016)
 

I am beginning to think this way as well. I compared their arm movement when hanging to that when opening the SALLY PORT or DRAWBRIDGE, and didn't see much difference in extending outside the FRAME PERIMETER. But not being able to measure, I can't say for sure. I rely on inspectors to measure the extensions and tell me as referee if a ROBOT does or does not have the capability to extend over 15".