Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

The rules read
I have attached what we are currently hoping is alright and the drawing most closely describing our situation from the game manual. We are thinking that the end of our chassis would constitute a side and therefore the whole thing must be covered by bumper. It is shorter than 8 inches though and we are concerned that the bumper still must be 8 inches. We don't think that we will be forced to extend our bumper given that there will be no frame chassis or support after that 5 inches in the attached picture. This is an issue because if the bumpers have to be 8 inches the robot has to be 26 inches wide to intake a ball not over a bumper.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

The bumper needs to be at least 8" long. You need to support it, as shown in the rules. Your idea of having short bumpers like that (which has been asked about by countless other teams) won't pass inspection. Sorry.

There might be another way to get the BOULDER in there...think about it....

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

And just to reiterate, the side with the opening still has a frame perimeter of 24 inches. The calculation of the frame perimeter doesn't required a actual frame.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

If this is a top view, the edge of your FRAME PERIMETER is the 24 inch dimension and therefore you have to cover 8 inches on either side. The bumper shown would not be legal.

See this Q&A

If in doubt, imagine pulling a string all the way around the outside of your robot. This defines your FRAME PERIMETER. Each of the sides of string now needs to have at least 8 inches of bumper on it, and each end of each bumper piece needs to be supported (at least 1/2 inch per R26).

-matto-

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

To further clarify for you, as shown in the diagram, you have only 5" of bumper protecting the frame perimeter...the 3" outside the frame perimeter does NOT count towards the 8" required::safety::

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

The manual drawing you have attached is clearly just like your planned robot. You'll note the black rectangle drawn on it marked FRAME PERIMETER. The FRAME PERIMETER is the thing that has sides that need to be covered. In the manual drawing, the short bumper on the side with the U cut in it is at least 8 inches long. Your bumper must also be 8 inches long because each corner of the frame perimeter must have at least 8 inches of bumper on either side of it.

In short, your CADed drawing is illegal because the bumper needs to be at least 8 inches. And yes, this does mean your robot must be 26" wide to intake a ball through the bumpers.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

ImOn3618,

I edited your CAD image to show what you'd have to do to follow the bumper rules, if you were to keep a width of 24 inches (see attached). You are correct in saying that the gap between the bumpers is not wide enough to fit a boulder. But, as you said, if you increased the robot's width to 26 inches, the gap would become 10 inches, which is the diameter of a boulder. Hope that helps.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

R19 states: If a side is shorter than 8 in., the entire side must be protected by BUMPER (see Figure 4-4)

The way I read that, is you are allowed to have a side less than 8" as long as the entire side is covered by a bumper. I could be wrong about the way I am reading that part of R19.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

A side with a gap in the middle isn't considered 2 sides. It's one side and the gap can't be more than 8 inches from a corner on either side.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

The side is not just the part with the frame. The side of your robot includes the opening for intake. Therefore the side is not 5 inches. It's 24 inches. Which means 8 inches from each corner must be covered.

EDIT: In the image this highlighted part is the answer to your questions.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

Before anyone suggests it, no, tilting/turning those short bits of frame on either side of the U cut-out won't help. It will create a new shorter side right where the cut-out is. The two corners of that new side will need 8" of bumper as well, further covering up the U cut-out.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

The picture from the manual that was posted with a gap in the frame does NOT have 5 sides. It has 4 sides. A side goes from corner to corner, not from corner to gap.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

So does the 8" of bumper have to be continuous? Or if you had a 4.5" section of bumper, then you use the Rhino bumper kit to have the rest of the 3.5" of bumper raised, would that still count as your 8" of bumper coverage?

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

These balls are pretty squishy. You could get them through a much narrower passage if needed. (That said, we're lifting the ball over a continuous solid frame perimeter, using a gap in the bumpers to help keep things tight and low.)

I don't see anything forbidding this. Bumpers are not required to all be at the same height, or even horizontal along their length. However, given the hardware required to mount this, it would probably be easier and lighter to raise the whole corner.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

I guess no one figured out why the maximum bumper height is 12" this year...sigh....

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

Yes we did, shhh ;-)

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

A hard lesson from 2012 :)

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification \ Vertical bumper?
 

The legality of non-horizontal bumpers seems contradictory with the rules others are stating. It implies that it is legal to have an 8" vertical bumper, attached to an 8" vertical frame member at the corners, which fits within the 4" and 12" vertical envelope. Does anyone else see this configuration as illegal? If this is legal it allow for a much wider center gap for those doing something in the space between the bumpers.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification \ Vertical bumper?
 

While the Blue Box below R19 doesn't explicitly apply to your situation, it would stand to reason that the 8" of bumper cover still have to be along your Frame Perimeter, and your Frame Perimeter does not go vertically. It's a question for the Official Q&A, but it somewhat goes against the intent of the rules.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification \ Vertical bumper?
 

Yes probably a Q&A question. I guess it depends on the definition being used for perimeter, some dictionaries state it means the 2D shape as if looked at from above but others make no distinction and count following a line around all outside edges (3D) including a vertical portion of the edges as being pat of the perimeter. But this may also count as being another 'side' of the robot.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

If your bumper is at 4", then your bumper would cover the 4.0"-8.5" zone (5" high bumper +/- 0.5")

If another robot's bumper is at 12", then their bumper would cover 7.5"-12.0" zone.

Thus, in a worst case scenario, there is 1" of bumper overlap for the robots to encounter each other.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification \ Vertical bumper?
 

I don't see a rule that requires the bumper to be continuous. However, it is implied that the 8" side must be continuous. So, you could mount one section a 4" high, and another section at 12" high, but the 2 sections must abut each other.

Nothing requires the bumper to be level. While the rule, as written, says the bumper must be 8", I am virtually certain that the 8" rule will be enforced with respect to the frame perimeter, and not the bumper length.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification \ Vertical bumper?
 

Yes. I see it as completely illegal within the rules as they currently are. The FRAME PERIMETER is the geometric shape defined by

The FRAME PERIMETER is parallel to the ground, so your BUMPERS must cover 8 in. of the FRAME PERIMETER on either side of each corner of the FRAME PERIMETER, not merely have a length of 8 in. R19 makes this fairly clear:

The first sentence of the Blue Box is the critical one. It says that 8 in. of BUMPER means an 8 in. projection onto the plane of the FRAME PERIMETER, and does not include the corner that meets the bumper from the other side of the corner.

EDIT: Here's a diagram. The most you can angle your bumpers while still remaining in the bumper zone would be 20.6 deg. for a section that provides 8 in. of coverage.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

I don't see anything in the rules that talks about the vertical backing of the bumper, only horizontal backing. Could I legally have a bumper that ran the whole length of the frame but vertically only slightly overlapped the frame member?

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

As long as that slight overlap is fairly solid, I don't think you'd have a problem.

Understand that this is not a blanket OK--I'd actually need to SEE the setup, and some inspectors will test suspect mountings by trying to simulate game interactions. But if you plan carefully, you should be OK.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

Like by smacking it? How does one test via simulated game interactions?

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

Shake it, try to pick the robot up by it, smack it, kick it, step on it... Basically, if the bumper looks shaky, the inspectors may opt to help you out by checking the attachments. You might not even notice.

I have been known to, on occasion, grab and shake the bumper a bit. If it comes up loose, I talk to the team about how a secure bumper can mean the difference between a 3v3 and a 2v3 with one disabled robot. ;) The next time I check, it's usually secure.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

Many thanks for the response - this is good news for us

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

One test robot inspectors like to use is can you lift the robot by the bumpers? R21-G is subject to interpretation, In the end you have to satisfy the inspector that your robot meets the rules. It is really to your advantage to have securely attached bumpers regardless what the inspector allows. If the bumpers come loose during a match, you will be disabled, maybe penalized, and maybe required to get your robot reinspected. Scout of the teams you want to play eliminations with will take points off your evaluation.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

Somebody's been lurking in this thread. See Team Update 05 for a new BUMPER drawing.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

Ok so on our chassis we have our frame and then the wheels go out an extra 1-1/2"-2" past the frame does that mean those tires have to be inside the bumper too. Or can we build a mounts at 9" high and go above the tires and around the chassis .

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

You need the sides of the chassis to be longer, or have a support outside the wheel. Either way the effect is the same; you can't just make your bumper odd-shaped to avoid your wheels.

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

Crap I was hoping that wouldn't happen time to design bumper mounts

Re: Bumper "Side" Clarification
 

You could do that as long as they are retractable and stay within 15" of the frame perimeter. They would have to start the match inside the bumpers though. The question is should you do that.