Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

So I had this thought today as we were reviewing out prototyped shooters and I realized that we had a lot of force coming out of these shooters. My concern would be what would be the ruling if we shot the ball into the high goal, but there was so much force on the ball that it bounced off the backboard and rebounded back into the field. Would that still count as a score or would we have to shoot it back into the goal again?

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

The BOULDER never counts as scored.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

There will be chains hanging inside the goal to absorb force, which will (hopefully!) prevent this from being much of a problem.

However, based on previous years experience, I believe that shots that bounce out will not count towards your score.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

There are chains like in 2013 and 2010 to help mitigate the boulders bouncing out. That said, in your scenario, when the ball bounces off, it doesn't count as scored.
Have you considered shooting with less force?

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

It's a lot like 2013 when frisbees routinely bounced out of the goals - either from hitting the target with too much force or from over-filling the goals to the point they spilled out.... If it doesn't stay in, it's no good.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

I feel sorry for the team that that happened to in 2014. They shot a high goal, then it bounced on a table edge or something and came right back through the goal onto the field. Even that didn't count as scored...

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

At least this year it's really difficult to overfill the goal. I'm interested to see the return of the pokey stick from 2012.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Thanks for the help. Yes we will be shooting with less force so hopefully that will not be an issue.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Yeah, the scoring system counts all boulders that fall into the corral, with some counters at the bottom of the tower. There are no counters at the entrance of the tower. They showed the counters in one of the intro videos.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Also, the backboard will also absorb some of the impact as shown here

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

There must be some sensor before the corral, or else the scoring system wouldn't know to add a high goal or a low goal.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

There are separate sensors used for scoring balls entering the corral from the high and low goals. See the attached picture:

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

I think this is what you were referring to.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

That be it.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

At the very least, it would be helpful if FIRST increased the amount or mass of the chains so that this would not happen as often. While we have been considering lowering the power of our shooter so that this does not happen as often, it just seems logical to ensure that shots made in the high goal are counted as accurately as possible. In the last competition, 107 experienced this issue recurrently, sometimes occurring up to three times in a single match.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

We also ran into problems with balls bouncing out of the high goal, and for us it always happened the same way.

If we lined up just to the right of the center goal (the same thing would probably happen from the the left of the goal), the ball would hit the back corner and bounce out the right goal. I believed this happened three times in Boston, and it caused us to lose our first quarterfinal match when it bounced out during auto. This video shows what happened.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

FIRST is correctly counting scored BOULDERS. You are simply not scoring them because they are not exiting into the CORRAL. Field is working as designed and spec'd.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

I wish FIRST had modified the goals to reduce or eliminate bounce-outs early in the season. I think it is a bit late to do it now. Although the definition of a "scored boulder" addresses bounce-outs, I really hope that FIRST didn't intend to see this many. In an ideal world, you get credit for putting the boulder in the goal and not just for doing it with some preferred trajectory.

We have struggled with bounce-outs, but of a different sort. We shoot a high angle shot from the batter (like a lot of other teams), and unless we hit the top of the window, the backspin on the ball makes it roll down the chains, bounce off the framing at the bottom of the angled face of the castle, and then out.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Just watching the auto shot that didn't stay in, I can see that your robot fires pretty hard. Does it also fire with a significant horizontal spin? The resolution of the video doesn't let me see if the boulder even touches the chains at all, or just hits the opposite inside of the tower and then runs along the back plastic and comes out. The chains are there to absorb some of the energy of the boulder and attempt to keep the boulder from coming in one side and bouncing out the other or coming into the center and bouncing off the back right out the center again.

My unscientific observation, after watching 314 Qual/Elim matches and ~100 practice matches field-side, is that a very hard shot causes the chains to not have time to move or absorb and actually act as a solid wall. More mass would actually cause that particular action to occur more than it does. They need to have some mass, or the boulder is going to blast right through them, but too much and they don't move at all.

That missed shot wasn't what solely lost the match. After auto, you spent 23 seconds hung up on an alliance partner and then fired two high goal shots off of the tower facade (with one low goal in between). The red alliance also missed an auto shot on high goal. Two blue robots rolled off the batter at the end. Red alliance "should" have had a capture if one bot hadn't gotten stuck on the moat. Red also fully depleted the tower but didn't breach the defenses, which I can't think I have seen first hand in any of the 3 events I've FTA'd. The score (individually and combined) for the match was a good deal lower than the 2nd match of the series. Both alliances had a cavalcade of errors to point to for how it was lost and won.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Have you considered reducing the amount of back-spin you are imparting on the Boulder.

In the real world, you get credit for finishing the job you are asked to do. In this case, your true objective is not really to get the Boulder to enter the opening of the Goal. It is to get the Boulder to trip the Counting Mechanism that is several feet below the opening of the Goal.

As Andrew stated, "Field is working as designed and spec'd." This means that certain solutions will work successfully and others will not. It is up to those competing in this game to find the solutions that do work.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

We use a catapult and using our slow motion camera we have almost 0 back spin. We throw it just as hard as we need to in order to have a large sweet spot. Watch our robot's autonomous (low bar blue robot). Sometimes the chains just act like a swing and spit you right back out despite your design. It's almost comical how it spits it right back out at us haha.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

I mean, isn't that a result of the trajectory for a catapult? It throws it hard and somewhat flat directly at the bottom of the chains. It's physics that the ball swings with the chain and continues out when the chains gets pulled back.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

That's kind of like playing miniature golf with the wacky obstacles such as having to hit the ball through the spinning blades of a windmill. I seem to recall someone shooting a boulder in the high goal on one side and it came out the goal on the other side.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

There were a couple of matches at Vegas where balls would accumulate on the shelf inside of the goal. After the first occurrence, volunteers would be behind the tower waiting with the stick used to haul defenses around. These matches were definitely fun to watch.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

This happened several times to several different teams at FiM Troy. It's not much different than 2014, when balls would sometimes come back, and 2013, when frisbees were routinely ejected.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

I've seen boulders shoot in one side upper goal and come out the other. I didn't know what to do at first, but the Refs do.

One thing I did, as a corral keeper, is make sure the boulders rolled thru the counter boxes once inside. If they got stuck in the upper goal, we have a pokie-stick to bring them down in the chutes. If there is boulders in the way for the lower goals, I'd make room for the chute.

However, if a Human Player (teams to remain nameless) leaves a dozen or more boulders in the corral (yeah :ahh: !), blocking any more to come in, well, I tried my best to get them scored.

Watching from the inside the goals, as it were, for the bottom goals I had the sensation of a pack of dogs shoving balls into my mouse hole (okay, bad mixed metaphor) or being inside someone's mouth while they are eating.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

The strangest missed shot we had was when our spy bot shot went in the side goal and then bounced out the front.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Yep. My response was in reply to someone suggesting backspin may be the culprit.

At the time our high goal autonomous was inconsistent. That 1 second period where we though we made the shot made us feel like this after it spit it back out.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

This is just absurd, and easily corrected.*
This is the real issue. We who participate in the technical challenge can appreciate the subtleties of scoring rules, but to the proud grandmothers and their friends in the general audience, which I sincerely hope FIRST is still trying hard to grow, not crediting an oddball just looks ridiculous.

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*One possible method: Head Ref and neutral zone ref are busy watching for G13 and other miscues, outer works refs are busy scoring auton crossings and reaches -- that leaves courtyard refs free to watch for oddballs like this one, and notify Head Ref so that the score missed by tower sensors can be entered manually.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Then the problem becomes an issue of keeping track of the 'scored' balls on the field so they aren't scored twice.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

It's part of the game, though it is annoying when it happens.
https://youtu.be/qjoAI0x324I?t=46s
https://youtu.be/17JDcQaSIWw?t=26s

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

I think FIRST should fix the high goal. They fixed the low bar because the field did not meet the intent of the games design. The fabric didn't keep the balls out of the court yard while still allowing robots to pass through. The intent of the chains is to stop the balls after being shot into the high goals. If the balls goes in one opening and out of another this seem to be a field design issue. I think logic dictates the purpose of the chains is to stop the balls. How hard could it be to add a few more chains or at minimum make sure the chains are not twisted before the match.


jim

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

That wasn't the problem. The original fabric literally didn't survive the rigors of the game.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

I believe your statement here is incorrect (or just an assumption)

Please show where the GDC has expressly stated that the intent of the chains is to stop the balls after being shot into the high goal.

It is my belief (I have no proof) that the intent was to DAMPEN the shot, and that is what the chains do.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Or is it that teams didn't appropriately design and test to avoid breaking the game rules by damaging a field element? Our team tested with a low bar curtain weighted with nearly twice what the spec was to ensure we wouldn't be accused of damaging the field.

I know a number of teams have been warned about crossing the rock wall, because they're snapping of pins when they do. Shouldn't the same have happened to teams damaging the low bar curtain? I think if anything the assertion that FIRST should change the goal to accommodate the laser-rocket-boulder-launchers is probably a little excessive.

I'd venture 1747 is in the top 10% in terms of boulder energy and we very irregularly miss shots because the ball bounces back out. Let's play the game we got the best we can and understand these are all considerations in the design process.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

I just wish these balls would act predictably. But that's not FIRST's problem, that's a physics problem. FIRST even went out of their way this year to try to find a ball with a fairly consistent makeup. The way I see it, the chains are a fairly good solution to this problem that work most of the time, and while balls bouncing out can be annoying, it's just an unfortunate part of the game that can be, much of the time, mitigated.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

I just wish that FIRST would include drawings for the chains in both the full and low cost field diagrams.

Yes, the chains are a part of the game teams have to deal with, but if we're going to use that logic, then the low cost fields need to include them. Chains don't cost a lot!

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Which in itself brings up an question I will most likely never know the answer to.
If you have the choice between dampening a shot so it lands in roughly the same place, stopping a shot, or deflecting a shot. Which one is the most cost efficient?

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

The fundamental issue here is that the real field acts differently from what teams may have prototyped with. I imagine if you look back on games with simpler and cheaper field elements you will see less of this. This game specifically is much harder to make an adequate test environment for.

The difference between the fabric and this issue however is the frequency with which it happened. Evidently teams COULD have tested more rigorously, but FIRST could have also foreseen the issue through their own testing?

When an issue like this happens with high frequency, I feel the conclusion should be that FIRST itself did not account for this, and should have either communicated to teams better regarding prototyping for the low bar, or designed it in such a way that teams don't see issues on the field that they wouldn't see while practicing (ie. damage to the low bar due to extended use.)

When it happens with lower frequency (like the rejection issue) it can be reasoned that other teams DID foresee this issue, leading me to believe that FIRST did a better job of dealing with the issue before kickoff. This obviously doesn't mean they did a perfect job, but it seems right on the line of reasonable here.

So the core question regarding balls bouncing out is: Did FIRST communicate the requirements regarding scoring and the interaction of the balls with the goal adequately.

As this is a subjective metric, (and different individuals may have different definitions of "adequately") I don't believe we can say this question has an answer unless there is near unanimous agreement among the community. (as there was with the fabric)

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Which is why I posted the way I did.

By dampening rather than stopping the shot, it effectively limits the energy (speed) in the shot.

JMHO

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

It would have been interesting if FIRST had lined the inside of the high goal with memory foam like 2010.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

I agree with you , call it Stopping ( probably a bad choice of words) or " dampen " many shots are going through one side and out the other. At West Michigan we put the boulder in the tower 10 times in one match , three times the chains did not dampen the shots. 30% failure rate is poor design. I think the chains are getting tangled at times because they need to be longer. The point is if the GDC wanted us to finesse the boulders into the tower why have chains at all. Saying that,I feel it up to the teams to adapt. Check before the match to see if the chains are twisted, change the angle of your shot or take a little power out of the shooter.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

My Jagbots 4638 had a shot at Chesapeake Champs. Went in left side then out the right side. High goal. That should be ten points not zero points. Right guys? Amen

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

If a basketball rolls around the rim and jumps back out, does that count? Of course not.

The boulder has to stay in the goal to count for points, and exit through the corral.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

The issue with the tower chains was dramatically highlighted during yesterday's semi-finals at New England champs. A high-goal shot resulted in one of the boulders getting hung up in the chains, and a subsequent shot knocked the wedged boulder back out of the tower. In this case, the refs called a field error, stopped the match and worked on the chains before restarting the match.

This was right after high drama where a boulder had not been accurately counted during a previous match, transferring the win to the other alliance. The now-losing alliance was able to effectively contest that the uncounted boulder was a field error and the match should be replayed.

Who needs daytime soaps when one can watch FRC matches? ;)

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Not quite - a boulder got stuck on swinging chains in the high goal. From my vantage point at the scoring table, it looked like a couple of the chains swung together and almost cradled the boulder by wrapping around it - either way, it was pretty stuck. A field resetter tried to dislodge the boulder with a pole, but unfortunately the boulder fell back into the field, requiring the match to be stopped.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

Yes, they only count a boulder if it falls down the tower and passes through the sensors before rolling into the corral. The chains do stop almost all of the boulders from bouncing out, but there are times when I have seen a boulder launched into the high goal when the bot isn't quite square with the goal, and the ball will pass in one and out the other, and I have also scene a boulder bounce back out off of the chains. This happened to our bot maybe twice at the Northern Lights Regional. I don't think it has so much to do with the power of the launcher, as it does just plain bad luck.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

+1 this. While reducing strength will help, it'd be very hard to develop a way that completely eliminates the possibility of boulders falling out. Our shooter this year was fairly weak yet we had a few problems with balls bouncing out of the high goal. A boulder bouncing out of the high goal in this match costed us the quarterfinals.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

I have lost count of how many balls we have had pop out. Still less than a dozen overall though I think. We do have a fairly strong shot. I think you just shrug and focus on getting those points back. I don't really think it is something that the GDC can completely eliminate. The chains certainly help. Most of the time I think, as someone mentioned, our shots just rolled across the back and out.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

In your example. The basketball never entirely goes below the rim. So that's an easy one. The more I think about my Jagbots. The degree of difficulty shot is rated at 4.6. So they should have gotten 46 points for great effort. Thank you so very much. Thomas (just give me a crabcake) McCubbin

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

In your example, the ball never passed the scoring apparatus on its way to the corral. So it was never scored.

Re: Ball bouncing out of the high Goal
 

We just don't shoot such that our (nearly 45 mph velocity) shot trajectory is perpendicular to the back board and we've stopped having bounce outs. Every shot that we took that went into the high goal at our state championship event stayed in.

This isn't just a FIRST lesson, it's a life lesson. A lot of times you just have to play with the cards you've been dealt and do your best despite unanticipated challenges.