FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

So after seeing the comments and questions posted on the first teaser, we decided to make a second one that better showcases our shooting abilities. It exists, it is not a field component, and it is even accurate! And yes, it does have a cool name.

Enjoy!

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

How do we even know it's FRC parts and not a bench grinder with a flywheel? ;)

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Have you tested with multiple balls?

If not you might want to..

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

^ Asking the real questions

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

I appreciate the accuracy and the theatricality of this video, but whats with all the secrecy? Everyone knows 2 million ways to shoot a ball by now, I doubt you're like crazy innovating, and some people could benefit from seeing how you're shooting so accurately.

Although you have every right to keep it a secret if you want, I just don't see the point.

Anyway, nice shots and good luck this season.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

If anyone wants to see some true accuracy in practice, I think you'll really enjoy this video. Bonus, you can see their shooter isn't using a bench grinder!

-Mike

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Michael, The kids have found an innovation on the shot vs. all others posted. It is 100% FRC legal and with all FRC components and battery. We are trying to show what is possible so other teams don't settle and keep working their prototypes. But there is a lot of learning in the development and optimizing of the prototypes and we don't want to deny the other teams this learning opportunity by just giving it away.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Kudos on making this prototype!

However...

It's kind of ridiculous to say your shot is innovative yet not say how.

Additionally, your sample size of posted prototypes is very small.

I would rather encourage teams to look to for inspiration in the video I posted, since they can actually learn how 1717 pulled off such an amazing shot.

When you're posting claims of "fastest shot" or "super accurate", you have to be willing to take some "shots" yourself :)

Side note: some of those shots from 10ft range in your video hit the side of the goal. I'd encourage you guys to keep iterating and try to improve the accuracy of Asset 003 ;)

-Mike

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

I'll echo the above sentiment.

Still, kudos on the work so far.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Trolly team is trolly.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

click bait :(

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

I would definitely like to see your 22 foot shot using multiple game pieces (as you do in your 10 foot shot). I could show you a video of our prototype draining 30x 22 foot shots consecutively....with 1 ball.

Kudos on a solid prototype you've appeared to learn a lot from. In my 16 years of FRC I've learned one thing, its not really so much about exactly how you shoot a ball, climb a bar, lift a box or drive across the floor - but about how all those things come together in a consistent, well-drive, reliable machine.

Good luck.

-Brando

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

We are going to have more boulders to use with the final bot. And also better components to increase the shot accuracy even more.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Great work. For a young team, you have demonstrated a very precise and has possibility of being very accurate.

The reason I say potential for accuracy is that over the years I have seen a number of impressive prototypes get turned into mediocre robots. Sometimes it is because the fixturing of the prototype is quite massive compared to the spindly structure of the robot. Sometimes it is the voltage loss during the match playing into the speeds/power/controls. Sometimes it is the massive flywheel of the proto gets reduced to reduce weight. Often it is the nuance of had feeding vs. robot feeding the ball.

Anyway you look at it, you have a lot to be proud of and thank you for sharing. I would recommend you do not waste time trying to impress the competition at this point in the season and letting critics get in your head. You have just a few short weeks to get this shooter on a working robot.

Unlike many previous years, the robot has some pretty rough terrain between supply and scoring opportunities.

Also unlike many years, you essentially get one shot before playing fetch. Many shooters are very consistent once a lot of practice shots are used to line it up. On the field, you will not have these practice shots, so make sure you understand what it takes to either get into position, or reduce position sensitivity.

Great work so far, but keep the pedal to the metal turning that prototype into a robot.

One other "pro-tip" if possible, do not take that prototype apart until you have a better version of it if at all possible. If you stumble across the secret sauce without really knowing what went into the pot, it is helpful to have a reference when dealing with a second batch that turns out sub-par.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Wow, this advice is awesome! I just learned a ton.

Listen to this guy, forget what I said!

-Mike

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

I dunno what all the hate about secrecy is - if it's competition-sensitive, then so be it. They're in CA, so any number of surrounding teams can reverse-engineer what they have from a crummy pixelated photo, quickly iterate on it, then use their own idea against them at the regional (supposing it really is novel).

I agree with Ike - no need to waste time on teasers until the bot is end-to-end functional.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Since this doesn't give away the design it is just a little hard to tell in the video, how high off the ground is your exit point, as in how tall is the shooter?

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Watch How This Prototype Shoots a Foam Ball. 0:33 Seconds Had Me In Tears!

Whatever gravity gun you use to shoot the balls, you don't need to tell me! Just build a competitive and reliable robot that people can see later.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

It is really cool how consistent 5817 have made their shooter. As Ike stated, getting it aimed at the goal properly, in competition will be the next challenge.

I agree with Michael that 1717's accomplishment is more impressive since they are showing the results of the whole system that drives around, picks up the balls, acquires the target then shoots, not just a shooter that has been aimed by hand and clamped down. The video Michael linked is one of three that 1717 published after the end of the 2012 season. In those three videos, they score every single one of about 200 shots. It also seemed that in those videos, the ball goes through the hoop just to the left of center, indicating that their whole system is capable of only around 2 inches of variability over the 200 shots.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

There is a HUGE difference being consistent with one ball versus all balls.

Once a ball has a few hundred shots on it they become much, much softer.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

did anybody notice how chewed up those balls were? Chunks hanging off the sides is what I saw.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

That was a result of shooting the balls with wheels that had tread ziptied to them. You'll notice that we did use multiple balls, and they were both torn up, one badly, one not so badly. We got rid of the zipties and it has not been nearly as bad since then. The chunks you saw hanging off the one ball were actually pieces of duct tape. The other one has some holes in the fabric, but that is all.

Also, the main purpose of this video was to showcase the power we were able to get. We have measured only 6 inches of arc from a linear path. We aren't expecting it to be the most accurate prototype shooter ever, as we aren't controlling speed in any way, just plugging the motors into a battery. We are expecting it to become more accurate as we use better bearings, wheels, add speed control, mount it to a sturdy frame, etc. We also weren't wasting much of our time with the teaser, as it was made outside of shop hours, took only 30 minutes, and the CAD design is already done. The only thing we can really do right now is prototype and wait for parts.

Finally, we are trying to avoid showing the shooter, as we don't want to give anything away yet regarding the other mechanisms of the robot :cool:. As JesseK said, we wouldn't want to see our own designs used against us!

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

I am really happy at the discussion that this has brought up, especially how many great veteran frc mentors have decided to chime in.

Yes we are a rookie team, but our mentors and teacher advisor I would say are some of the best in California. I understand that people want more details and that those will one day be released.

Also please keep in mind that being a rookie team puts us into a whole different boat than other teams at a regional event. Our number is high, we have no record to go off of, and people aren't necessarily going to know who we are at our events. By posting these videos while hiding key dimensions and ideas it allows us to build a hype for our team. Getting people interested in our theme, the quality of robots we produce, and how 5817 operates. We want people to know 5817 before we get to the event and see our level of play. That is all the videos were for and to show what is possible without just giving a clear answer.

Also being a rookie means that we are competing for the rookie all star award as well. Winning that award would mean so much to the students, and we want to keep our innovations a secret until the time is right.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Thanks for the background Jon.

It would be awesome if you would be willing to share, at least, what your process was for reaching this point. Why do you want a shot with ~6" of drop from linear? What shooter options have you considered, tested, or designed? What constraints are you working under for this prototype? Height constraints, motor allocation, weight constraints, etc?

The bench grinder was brought up because many teams can grab 4 CIMs, strap them together, and make a shot like you've shown. The problem is, 4 CIMs in the shooter seems fairly impractical (and heavy), so most teams won't consider it. I'm sure this prototype is doing something NOT using 4 CIMs, but I know you're keep those sort of details under wraps.

Even if you can't share the design, we'd love to hear your process for reaching the point you're at, why you categorize this as a successful prototype, and what you would advise other teams to do with the lessons you've learned so far in your team's rookie year. I'm sure rookies, especially, would be inspired to hear a fellow rookie team's experiences.

Best,

-Mike

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

We use the Zero Point Energy Field Manipulator MK3, a tractor beam-type weapon that was originally designed for handling hazardous materials, now used to launch foam balls on linear trajectories.

Thank you for the supportive post, these kiddos are working hard and we plan to make an impact on the field... both literally and "literally" (figuratively).:]

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

ditto---now onto using the Death Star. May the force be with you.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

I dunno what the fuss is here, zoom in and enhance on any students when the reflection of the safety glasses they are wearing is angled at the mechanism, Trace the brand of safety glasses and using a cad of said safety glasses overlay the reflection. Keeping in mind that you need to compensate for the magnus effect and the angle of sunlight in Guatamala you can clearly see what they are using for a mechanism.

On a serious note though that is looking wicked consistent, and has some interesting characteristics on how the ball actually flies through the air. Definitely going to want to see the full reveal though.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

It is awesome that a second year team is already this far. Kudos to you 5817 - keep up the great work! I cannot wait to see what your team is up to.

Thanks for the inspiration for my own team to put together a solid shooter!

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

*First year.

Glad to help, and good luck with the shooter!

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

This would actually be more valuable to others and "hype" your team possibly as much or more than winning a tournament. This is part of why many of the top teams are so well respected.

A lot of people will copy a design that they see and like but copying without understanding the reasoning behind the design decisions and the context and operating conditions will often yield sub-optimal results so why worry about it?

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Plot twist: it's just a really accurate person throwing balls.:eek:

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Michael,

Well actually the quest for the most linear shot possible came from watching 1678 in 2012. When we were on 1671 we noticed that 1678 had a more direct linear shot, and thus had better accuracy. That year required more emphasis on the spin of the ball because of bouncing it off of the back board. this year it is all about power. The harder and more linear of a shot you can get the less variability you will see in your shot. Ideally we would like less than 2 inches of drop. And our height constraints have also been set in the rules and the bot will be under 53" tall.

In terms of motors used we don't want to divulge that just yet. And we will also be doing a full engineering documentation that all will be able to read after we do the robot reveal.

Re: FRC 5817 Shooter Prototype Teaser #2
 

Tried to practice what I was preaching. On a prototype* this weekend, we were evaluating the prototype success vs. packaging space. Notice we needed to change a key element. Made a 2nd (and a third) version of that key element so we could keep the first one as "the standard". We had some un-expected results, though with afterthought these results made sense.*

*I have the utmost respect for vagueness and secrecy when showing off. When it comes to "help", the more details the better. IE if you want to help others giving details is more useful, and if you want help from others, details are needed. There are few things more frustrating than: "help us figure out whats wrong with our prototype!!!!! I can't give you details, but it doesn't work the way we want. What can we do to fix it???!!!!???!!!"