Religion
 

I have had many' a discussion about religion with fellow teammates and friends, and decided to turn to Chiefdelphi and ask: what do you think of Religion???
My views and that of my friends comes to the point that reliogion is like a telemarkerter, its really skeptically, and a lot of strings attached. We also said that it was the core of a lot of the worlds problems. It only comes into play when you die, or accept that your death is coming, because you dont know what is in the afterlife. I have turned to you because i want to see if you provide a scientific outlook, a biblical outlook, or whatever. when you awnser, put your religion in too, i want to see how religiously diverse first is!!
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shrey
920
Hindu

First, this should be in the chit-chat forums.

Second, this has been touched before on the forums, and if I remember right, it got ugly.

If it turns into a 'my religion is better.. ' type thread, I'll probably end up closing it.

I feel this topic is a bit too heavy for this message board....I think this is going to easily offend ppl...just a warning...I might be wrong

I'm a Catholic and am pretty open minded and even I am a little offended by your interpretation of Religion...also religion should almost never ( I say almost cuz I certainly don't claim to be an expert on religion, knowing every religion out there) just come into play as you die, it should be perhaps the most major part of your life.

Again, though, I think if you talk about this kind of stuff you will find a lot of close minded people...be warned

Re: Religion
 

I think that's a loaded question that most people aren't capable of handling, in my opinion, maturely.

I think that it's unsafe to assume that the FIRST community is entirely scientifically minded.

I think it's a gross oversimplification of a complex global climate to single out *any* one cause, crusade, change or movement as the cause of *most* anything. It's also a sure-fire way of getting yourself into a whole heap of trouble.

Faith is more complex than most of us can really grasp, I suspect. I have faith, but I also have a healthy dose of skepticism, optimism, and hope. I don't feel that I could adequately put my entire world view into writing.

So, please, if and when people choose to respond, consider that, no matter how strongly you may disagree with their views, it's not outside the realm of possibility that *you* are misinterpreting, or otherwise assigning unseen bias, to their words.

Thanks.

Have a nice day.

yeah. What /\hesaid

Some misinterpretation of both my and your thoughts
 

First, I don't want anyone to be offended by my thoughts, i had just posted to see what other people think of religion and stuff, im not sure what i think of it fully, i know i am very skeptical, but i still pray when i feel the need, i believe in times that there is a greater being and then i also question that thought. Also, im not looking for a especially scientific biased opinion, im looking for what everyone thinks of religion and of their own religion. I dont want this to get ugly, i want more of a gathering of thoughts of religion, a discussion, not a fight. I really hope i dont offend anyone or anything and its cool if you dont want to post or remove this post, and i messed up by putting it in the general forum.

shrey

No doubt some people are going to bring in (or atleast think about) 9/11 - hey, it's pop culture now. Some of you also might hate Muslims because of 9/11, or think bad of Islam. At the very least, you know someone like that, or you've heard someone say, "I hate Muslims" in some variation or another.

To those poeple I say this: learn a bit <censor block>ing tolerance. Yeah, so jihad is a belief of Islam, but does that mean all Muslims are dying to strap a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up? NO! I've talked to Muslims - a lot believe that Bin Laden's jihad is bs. I'm no expert on Islam, but I've been told that to make a jihad, you have to formally declare your intentions. Anyways, I really hate talking about pop-culture and suddenly being a bandwagon patriot, so I'll leave it at this:

I can't stop you from hating a race or an ethnicity, but if you want to hate them, don't do it because of the actions of a select handful of individuals. After all, a few good Christians did a bit of Jewish genocide in a little thing called the Inquisition a while back - does that mean all Christians want to eliminate Jews, or does it mean the fundamentalists in charge at the time wanted to eliminate the Jews?

PM or AIM me (PhyrosFire) if you want to discuss this further. It's only going to get ugly on here.

A Few Points
 

Before I make some comments you should know what my beliefs are.

I am a Christian. I have studied several religions ( I hope to study others in the future) and in my opinion Christianity is the one that has the most credible foundation in truth. I believe the early history and scriptures of Christianity make it extremely unlikely that it is a fabrication and therefore its claims about the nature of God and man are true. Was I raised in Christianity? Yes. Is it possible I have not given other religions (including atheism) a fair examination? Yes, it is possible, but I am trying to fair and honest in consideration of other religions. The bottom line is, I want the truth. Can I ever know for sure what the truth is about religion? Perhaps after I am deceased, perhaps not, in the mean time I'm going to keep trying.

Some comments:

Shrey, have people done terrible things in the name of religion? Yes, but you need to keep things in perspective. If you just want to compare the numbers, it wouldn't surprise me if you found that atheist dictators in the 20th century have killed more people (millions) that all the "Christian" persecutions in the last 2000 years. If men professing religion are dangerous, men who answer to no God are far more dangerous. There are many reasons people harm others, religious belief is only one of many. Some people have killed others for food, does that mean we all stop eating?

Dan, glad to hear you don't lump all muslims together. I hope you don't lump all fundamentalists (of any religion) together as well. A fundamentalism is a person who believes that the core tennants and original teachings of religion should be strictly adhered to. Unfortunately we've come to use the word to mean people that hate everybody else and advocate violence. The fact is, if more Christians had been fundamentalists and adhered to the original teachings of their religion, there would have been no inquisition or crusades because conversion by the sword or killing people with other beliefs is not part of the original teachings or early history of Christianity.

As an aside, the inquisition was not a conflict between Catholics and Jews, it was largely a conflict between different groups within the Catholic church.

Sorry to hear you hate being a patriot, that's kind of sad actually. There are very few other countries where we could feel comfortable having this conversation.

James Jones
Engineer/Coach
Team 180 SPAM

jamesjones -

you must remember, in the 20th century there were a LOT more people than the past 2000 years, and there have been many more weapons of mass destucution. the nuclear bomb, gas chambers, etc, to name a few. before, all we had was a club, then maybe a sharpened club which we called a sword. even when we invented guns, it still only had limited killing powers. so, not to get off topic, but just like you adjust money for inflation, you must take the amount of people and the different weapons that they used when comparing who killed who, or why someone killed so many people.

I am fully willing to discuss this, but i don't think this is the place for it because things said on these boards are too easily misunderstood. However i would love to discuss this further. (see my sig for how to contact me)

The events that lead up to my religious beliefs (or lack there of) are numerous and circumstantial. I am still questioning whether or not I do believe in a superior being, but that’s not a question that I dwell on. I am part of no religion, and I am proud to say that. I may understand that there could probably be something that controls this world, but I don’t bother thinking about it or praying to IT.

I was raised a Roman Catholic and believed in everything that they taught me when I was younger. When I was 11 I started believing in science more than religion… and the fact that so many people in the world had so many different religions, and that each religious group thought that THEY were right, didn’t make sense to me. How could everyone be right if his or her beliefs are so different? So I just plain stopped believing. I still got confirmed three years later, but I used confirmation class more as an opportunity to learn about SOMEBODY ELSE’S culture and how the general population of my area may think of things.

One thing that came from this lack of religion in me… was a lack of religious pride. I notice that some people (NOT EVERYBODY), from whatever religion they are in, will argue non-stop with ANYBODY about why their religion is right and why others are wrong. Everybody knows that the holocaust, wars, battles, arguments, even petty conversations are started because of religious pride and persecution. I would NEVER try to convince to somebody that my beliefs are correct. All I ask is for other people to please NOT sit me down and try to convince me otherwise.

Because of this lack of religious pride in me… I have respect for everybody. I do not attach stereotypes to certain people of a religion, or vice-versa. I simply do not care. I’ll only judge on personality and character. If it so happens that the person does mention of what religion they are... I’d step back and say, (funny/not seriously) “why do I care?”

So to put it frankly… I disagree with religion because it makes some people go against the very morals that the religion thinks it is enforcing. It’s moral to respect everybody’s beliefs… but religious pride gets in the way. It is moral to respect life… but terrorists groups, who think that they are pushing their religion in a good way, kill people. It is moral to provide good care to children, but some (who are called ‘good people’) focus so much on their own little family that they shun all others away. Religion causes confusion, and in my opinion… the world would be better without it.

I think I'll believe it when i see it, right now, in my eye. . . .it's a waste of time. I was a Christian and I guess I still am, but my family is Heaten, we never attend church, although I am babptized, I have never gone to sunday school or conformation classes.

this made me think of a book i read a long time ago. i belive it's called The Engines of God, but i'm not exactly sure.

the basic idea was that humanity had finally achieved space travel. so, they've gone to the edge of the arm fo the milky way (the arm we're in). they discover a few planets. one was an advanced civilization, but the planet was destroyed, and the orbiting space station appeared to have commited suicde. the other planets were all primative. so, as the story goes on, the realize that anything with rectangular shapes (say a skyscrapper) was destroyed. so, eventually you find out that these cloud things came from outside the galaxy, and traveling at like the speed of light, went through and destroyed anything 'unnatural' or, anything with straight lines, sharp edges, etc. on a planet surface. they discover that way back when, a first wave of these cloud things came and wreaked havoc on earth, and that's how religion was formed. it was an interesting book, and if you like to debate about religion at all, it's an different twist on all the other ideas.

another interesting idea (only works for judiasm/christianity and maybe islam) is that the bible/torah/quran (i can't spell it, sorry), is just a collection of stories, similar to aesop's fables, just stories to tell us how we should act. my rabbi gave a sermon on that once, it was different, and it's definitly more believeable then the world being created in a week, or any other way a religion states the creation of the world.

another thing is, i think religions came up to define the unnatural, anything that couldn't be explained by humans. so, the wind, way back when, was a strange and unusual thing. nothing made the air move, so it was attributed to a god. rain, sun, night, etc, everything that you could show with your own two hands was said to be done by a god of somesorts. now that humanity has discovered the 'real' causes of wind, night, rain, etc., religion is in a unique spot. you can either go and say well, there is still a god (or many gods), but they don't control thigns like rain and wind, or you could say there is no god(s), or you could become a hermit, and believe as the 'ancients' did.

the topic of religion is a very broad one, and not something that is easily discussed through an online forum, or even online. sorry to anyone who thinks i'm being offensive, i just can't really show what i feel through a website. really needs to be a person to person debate... :/

I definately don't think the chief delphi forum is a place to bring up 'religion', heck I got in enough trouble for not liking tethers:eek:

Anyways I agree with Erin on most of her points, mostly because the more religions you learn about the more you see that each one believes it and only it is the true one, while others may contain partial truths only one is true.

Whoose?

My family is Roman Catholic. I will be confirmed as a Roman Catholic in two years... but I don't really agree with everything that Catholicism teaches. One of my biggest problems with the relgion is, if you are a Catholic you are supposed to "make" people believe what you believe. I think religion is a very private thing. I'm all for explaining my beliefs to someone if they ask me about it. But other than that, I don't think people should go around saying "Hey you! Believe in my religion because I said so! I'm right and you're wrong!" I don't go around forcing my beliefs on other people, and I expect the same respect from them. I guess you would say I'm just Christian. I don't believe in one pacticular sect of Christianity... there's something I disagree with from every religion.

- Katie

You can start the Katie denomination :D

I read this book, called "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis (the guy who wrote The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe) and thought it was interesting. It was all about Heaven and Hell, but it didn't bring religion into it, really. It just made you think a lot...

I am Roman Catholic. I like being Roman Catholic. That is all I'll say about my religion.

I think religion helped get people through. It gave people something to believe in when they felt things were hopeless. No matter what religion people believed in, it was something to put faith into. But, I also think, the meaning behind "religion" varies from person to person.

That's my 1 cent...I'd give all 2 cents, but I don't think CD is the place for it.

personal relationship with God > organized religion

I in no way mean to offend any agnostics or atheists.

Hrm... too much to say on such an off topic subject...

I'm an existentialist...

But hey, no flame wars yet... good sign... :D

I really doubt that is a Catholic doctrine. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

More likely what you're refering to is the fact that Christianity is "evangelical" -- meaning that the Christian message is good news, and as such we want to let others know. The object is not to coerce people into the religion, but to give them the opportunity to hear and believe the good news.

Just a quick thought people have found that we are hardwired in the brain for prayer. Monks who have been monitered have been shown to show more brain activity than normal. It's also been proven that it happens with all people who pray. Sorry Ill elaborate more tomorrow. Gtg fast.

Off-topic??? In Chit-Chat???
 

I disagree that CD should be a religion-free zone. I think it's refreshing to be able to discuss other things that are important to us too. (Come to think about it, FIRST comes pretty close to being a religion doesn't it? :D )

I'm with ya
 

I'm with ya, Christina. I converted to Catholicism 5 years ago and I'm very happy. I'm not perfect (duh!), but I enjoy a deep faith in God.

I will discuss this with others, but I also think that freedom of religion is a great thing. Respect of others in their own religions is good... but Catholicism works for me and my family.

Andy B.

"For Inspiration of Science and Technology" and here we are blindly following a devine being without knowledge of existance and a lack of imperial evidence. Hmmm

empirical

Personally, I haven't gone to church a whole lot, since my parents are working a lot. We used to go around the holidays, but we haven't since my grandfather died (5 years). I don't really see it on a religious level. I see it as a corporation where people donate money willingly to pay salaries for a bunch of priests, ministers, bishops, popes, etc. I know I will get flamed for this, but when has religion become a case of monetary value? The answer: Ever since it began.

I thought religion was supposed to be based on faith? As long as you have your faith, you have everything to look forward to. This is what I believe.

Me? I'm agnostic. I don't deny a god, because it is impossible to disprove anything. I don't believe in a god, though, because it has not yet been proven. I'm perfectly open to the views of any religion: Provided they have good points to back them up.


Many times in English and Physics class I found myself sharing views on religion with my friend, Paul. We analyzed a lot of things, and these are what helped to reaffirm the views I have.

empirical would cause redundancy, in imperial evidence imperial means "domineering or conquering" :D

thanks for your thoughts
 

i think that after reading what everyone is written, im still skeptical about it, but i have revised my thoughts and think that there are bigger problems and stuff that i didnt encounter during my thought process. i agree with fighting about food and peace the contridictions they bring to my thought cycle. But i still dont see how i could believe in something with so many unawnsered questions. But the same goes for science too, yet my faith in science is unquestioning because it seems that they [science] can find an awnser to almost all questions. Its a topic in which i have to do more research as a person and as a topic to be fully aware of it.

The question becomes, "It there anything that does not require faith?"

Thanks for not reaming me...

You (I) learn something new every day... :p

Umm, reaming means to enlarge or widen a hole...

Used synonymously with "assailing" in this case...

Ok, I was reading 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' and they said something about God. It was pretty funny. I don't have the book with me so I can't give you an exact quote, but I'll try my best...

The babblefish is an extrodinary creature, when you stick a babblefish in your ear, it can translate every language in the Universe.

The babblefish is so extrodinary that it's existance almost proves that a God exists.

BUT, poof denies faith, and without faith, God is nothing.

Therefore, God disappeared in a puff of his own logic.

This is in Ch. 7 of the first book somewhere, maybe someone else can find the exact quote. When I first read it i just broke out in laughter.

If I had my copy on hand, I could properly quote it, but there's also the philosophical trilogy of books, Where God Went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who Is This God Person, Anyway?

And there are more places in the first book alone in which I broke out into laughter than I could count...

:)

IT = a god???
 

You believe that Segway is a worshipful deity? I know Dean believed IT would change the world, but to control the world? Such lofty expectations. Now I've heard Dean Kamen referred to as a god before, but never one of his creations.... Maybe Dean is the Father, IT is the Son, and Woody is the Holy Ghost of the FIRST "religion"? :)

There are some in these forums who would have us believe that Segway isn't really "IT". So are these people correct - are those who put their faith in IT now praying to a false idol, or are these naysayers simply heretics condemning themselves to an eternity of doom with their blasphemous speech? :p

I know you are being facetious, but I used the word ‘IT’ because ‘God’ cannot be specified as a him or a her. In additon, I couldn't use 'they' or 'them' because we all know 'God' is a singular noun. And I thought I hated English.

Alright, here I go... I'm one for religious debates personally.. in fact I did my psychology ISU on religion in society... I even had my survey up here way long ago. This is the part where I say, I don't mean to offend anyone, cause I know my views on religion are a lil messed up due to things that I've had to go thru in life.
Personally, I have some different thoughts on religion, I was raised Roman Catholic, but I greatly disagree with many of the ideas and the contridictions of those ideas, all stemming from one moment, the moment I completely lost that faith. After that I really looked at it, and thought about how there are no true consequences to actions, that there are holes and loopholes everywhere. I also really got offended when I went to a wedding and part of the vows were that you would raise any children you had into Catholisism... I thought that was unfair for the children. I think we should all be able to choose which religion we celebrate, or if we choose to express that aspect of life at all.
When I did my ISU I came across some strange psychological research, it talked about the deprivation of faith.. and how if you have not addressed the concept of religion at all whether it be to express or not to express(ackkkk Hamlet..) then you actually can end up with physical problems.. pretty freaky eh?!
Now me, I'm into Wiccanism and Druidism, I kinda take beliefs from both. I believe in karma, because that makes sense to me. That what you do will come back to you in life, that what you do in this life, matters in this life, not only in the next. I also think that maybe the druids had something when they thought, All the Gods are one God.... in that, maybe no one is wrong, maybe we all see it differently, but it's really the same, I mean, for all the religions in the world, there tend to be a lot of key similarities. I think, that that belief should be one we all think about, that maybe, whatever is there, doesn't care what we believe in, as long as we believe, maybe that's the big message.. I mean, I believe in teh Goddess, in magick.. does that make me wrong or messed up? Not in my eyes, I've seen my faith at work. And really, magick and prayer, are pretty close, both are asking for something to happen, just with magick, you see it happen a lil faster.
Just close your eyes and imagine for one second, what the world would be like if everyone wasn't so caught up in being right about religion, how many wars would have been avoided. How many of the world's problems are rooted in religion? Imagine for just a minute, that we all took that to heart, that no one was concerned with other's beliefs, that they focused on their own.. I for one, would love to see it, a world where we could all accept the practices of others and a world where fundamentalism wasnt so fatal..
Unfortunately I doubt we'll get to see it.
Alright, so I'm rambling again.. but hopefully everyone got something out of that.. I hope... I think by sharing our beliefs and views, we can all learn a lil more, and maybe be better for it. *sigh* I'm really done, promise.. hope I didn't offend anyone, cause that would be counter productive.
*hugz to all as alwayz*
Ann-Marie -team 783
PS. I love talking about religion, and I think it's really healthy to do so... if you ever want to talk, drop me a line, midnightmystic_@hotmail.com ... or ICQ # 162691028 ... and if you want to live chat we can do it off my website.

First off, I'm Catholic, but I don't know what I believe.

Second, I disagree that we KNOW God, if it exists, is a singular entity. I started reading parts of the Bible a little while ago, just to try to get some firsthand knowledge about it instead of hearing about the stories (some of the Bible is messed up from what I've read). And in Genesis (in The New American Bible, which is weird that they would make a specific AMERICAN edition) it says "Then God said 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.'" Now that makes me think either God is multiple entities, or we aren't made in God's own image after all, but a combination of all the creature that it made summed up in one. I guess. I'm still trying to interpret it.

Third, the story of Noah is the most confusing story in the book that I have read. God destroyed all life on earth except Noah because man was all evil. Except Noah. One guy. My question is, if humanity was so corrupted by evil that God was willing to destroy its most precious creation (or at least that's what is sounds like) WHY DIDN'T IT CREATE A DIFFERENT PROTOTYPE HUMAN THAT COULDN'T BE AS CORRUPTED BY EVIL?? I don't get it. It makes me think that if God exists and created us, we are just one of many prototype creatures it created in a grand experiment. Somewhere out in the universe is Human Mark II that is less corruptable. There are probably more out there after that.

Alright, there you are trying to understand the thinking of GOD. If there is a god(i believe there is) than his level of thinking is waaaaaaaaaay beyond our comprehension. Who is anyone to question him? Hes God!

I think that the Bible is a collection of Fictional Stories fabricated to teach moral values. Kinda like one of those 'Don't do what Danny Does' Children's books. Many of them are interesting stories... but that's what they all are, stories.

And they're very poorly written stories too.

I know that this may come accross in a bad way but that is just following blindly. It would be like saying "Don't question Hitler! He is the leader and knows more than we do so we shouldn't wonder if killing jews is wrong." It just kinda seems like an ignorant statement, but nothing personal, just in general.

Well I have been watching this thread, and did not know if I wanted to become involved in such a controversial subject. I am going to just post some random blurbs of my beliefs, and things that I question or don't completely agree with.

First, I must say that I am a Presbyterian, and even deeper as a Christian. I was born into a family who chose this as their religion, and have continued with it my whole life. For the first time ever, within the past 2 years or so, I have really begun to question the different beliefs within religions. My whole life, I always thought that all religions were very different, and none two could ever share a lot of qualities. I do not know if it is because of my family, environment, or my own beliefs, but I used to think that the other religions were not even close or 'equal' to my relgion. However, when my cousin died this past June a few days before his graduation I started to think that religion is just one blur. I went to church that Sunday morning, and eventough I very seldom understand the readings or sermon, I remembered the general content of the sermon from that week. That Wednesday, I went to my cousins funeral at a Baptist church. The sermon that the minister gave had the same context of the sermon I had heard previously. After doing a little research I came to find that the majority of Christian churches have a sermon suggestion list, and a lot of them follow them throughout the year.

More recently I have begun to question why people choose a certain denomination. I am currently trying to find information about Non-denominational churches. My 'friend' goes to a non-denominational church, and I am having trouble grasping the concept of his beliefs. Overall in the long run this will never greatly affect me, and it does not bother me that he choses to do so. However, I am trying to understand how you can believe in God, but not believe in a specific denomination. If anyone cares to discuss this further or would be able to explain this more to me, I would greatly appreciate it.

*I believe in God.
*I believe there is an afterlife.
*I believe in order to truly be accepted into his world after death you must practice his religion and attend church.
*I believe that you have a final destination and you have no control over that. Everything is pre-determined for your time here and whatever happens afterwards.
*I do think people can have karma. This karma will do good for you as you do good for others. However, I think God choses to throw some twists and turns in so we can grow.
*I do not completely believe everything in the bible, I don't know if I just think some things aren't true, or if it's all because I truly do not understand the book.
*I do not believe in atheism. I believe that everyone believes in something, and has faith in something.

In closing, I will try to find the statistic of how many people who say that they are atheists, however, when it comes their time they ask for forgiveness and God's love. There have been an outstanding number of reports of this, and I know there is an overwhelming percentage of people this has applied too.
Also, like I mentioned before if anyone would be able to explain denominations and no deminations to me better, I would greatly appreciate it.

My views on how a person can believe in God and not belong to a certain denomonation may differ from others... but this is how I see it.

One who blieves in ONLY God will walk around, by themselves, appreciating the world around them. Like they would appreciate nature, the sky, the trees, the animals... stuff like that. They may pray to god in their own words, but they will not recite traditional prayers that people in church do.

The 'people' that come AFTER or BELOW God is where religion takes place. Jesus is associated with Christians, Muhammed is associated with Muslims, and Jews don't believe in 'a son of God.' People of religion will celebrate holidays, recognize Saints, recite and do the same prayers, and will gather to worship.

People who ONLY believe in God will do nothing else but KNOW he exists.

That is my view.

There is no such thing as a REAL 'non-denominational' church, that's kind of an oxymoron. This is because if it's a CHURCH, it's a meeting place for some form of religion. In this case, 'non-denominational' is only a name.

However, it's totally OK for people of no denomination to get together in a group and talk about their different views of god, or talk about families, or do whatever. But if they meet in a 'sacred' place like a church or something, and start reciting common prayers, celebrate holidays, or participate in rituals... they are starting a religion.

Well said

Ok, I follow and understand that. And I have thought of that as possibilities before. However, with understanding this, he goes to church just as others do, however it is a non-denominational church? What do they believe then? He says he believes in the bible and God, etc. however, he does not have a denomination. Aren't you automatically put into a denomination by what you say, hear, study and believe? How can you say you believe all of this but not believe in a denomination when there aren't that many differences within Christianity? If you are being preached something, it has to follow a specific belief and denomination in my mind. It just happens, even it you don't intend it to be specific, it will still fall into the charecterization of a denomination.

I think you can believe but not be associated with anything. You don't need to go to church and have a man read the bible to you, you don't have to sing, you don't need communion. They are all man made items with no real affect on you as a person even if you think they do. You can stay in your home and pray if you want. If you think that "he" is out there then thats all you need. Besides, you should be glad that he is actually going to church, don't discriminate about what kind. Church is just a place to gather for people that believe, it doesn't matter in what.

Yes I understand this, and I do understand that I should be happy that he goes to church. I am happy that he does, and it does not bother me that he chooses to go to a non-denominational church. However, I wish I knew more on what he specifically believes, only so I can better understand him. I guess that I am going to just have to leave it as that he believes in God, the bible, and goes to church. I guess this means that he is Christian? However, I will never understand the difference between denominations; either between mine and his or mine and others in general.

Its Faith, the foundation of every religion IMO. I mean, if you believe there is a god who created the earth and the universe, you must acknowledge his infinite powers and knowledge. There are many things beyond our comprehension. The way anything with infinite knowledge acts is beyond our comprehension. I don't feel anyone could make these same claims about Hitler.

Faith is following blindly, in a way.

But we have seen what following blindly in the past has done. It has caused wars and hate and pain and fear. Some religions do this too. I would have thought that humans being as advanced as they are could benifit from previous experiences, not continue to do them. People can have faith in others, but i just think that we should not give out such faith like it is inexhaustable. If you have faith in someone, you trust them and probalby know them pretty good. How well do most people know god and religion?

Also, how do you know that god has infinite powers and knowledge?

Faith:

1) Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2) Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
3) Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4) often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5) The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6) A set of principles or beliefs.

^There's your dictionary definition(s)...^

- Katie

Religion: Book 1 of 2.
 

Religion: Book 1.

I tried my best to kill this thread early on, though I am surprised with the civility to the discussion thus far. I suppose that, in my first attempt, I wasn’t verbose or encompassing enough to do what I set out to do.

Just for that, you all get to suffer through my point of view. You brought this upon yourselves, so no complaining now.

Further, I may go ahead and quote some of you, or other sources. It’s nothing personal, really, so don’t get all in a huff if you feel I’m inaccurately portraying you or your attitudes. It’s more for the purpose of illustrating how things might be misconstrued, rather than them actually being misconstrued.

I make no claim to be right, encompassing, or representative of anyone but myself. I will, up front, admit to the innate hypocrisy in a lot of what I am about to write. I apologize in advance. I can think of no better way. Also, I’m going to make an attempt at being critical of all religions, but my life experiences have centered around Roman Catholicism, so that may be where most of my examples or prejudices lie.

Aren’t disclaimers fun? You always need them when it comes to religion.

I was worried I wouldn’t have an opening statement, too.

Dictionary.com defines ‘entitlement’ as, “A government program that guarantees and provides benefits to a particular group.” Consider, for a moment, that the ‘government’ modifier is extraneous and unnecessary given the common usage of the word, and keep that in mind as I continue.

In my opinion, Chris’ post reeks of entitlement. While he is certainly not alone in this trait, nor inherently guilty, his example was concise enough to be chosen for my little diatribe. Let’s take for granted, if only for a moment, that some of the implied (and stated, but perhaps excluded) truths that form the foundation of this argument are gospel (intended, yes). God exists. God is beyond our comprehension.

If such is the case, it seems clear enough to me that man the opinion of man is inconsequential against the word of God. That, for all of the scientific reasoning, knowledge, and inference that we possess, our level of understanding of the world and universe around us is, at best, naïve, and at worse, misguided. With that said, I can think of no legitimate, convincing, conclusive reason to give any worth, credit, or value to Chris’ argument.

See, Chris is, last I saw, human. Most who believe in God, to my knowledge, are human. So, in my mind, there exists an inherent dose of entitlement in the tenable position of all who follow religion – myself, perhaps, included.

I can see already that what I’ve written is a bit obtuse, so let me make one last attempt at clarifying myself before I move on to other, more important things. To claim the will of God as justification for nearly any cause is an infinitely defensible position. It is, after all, the implicit absoluteness of a God that defies reason, and thus, disallows anyone who argues with the support of God to be wrong. However, I am not speaking absolutely, in the apocalyptic, judgmental sort of way. Instead, I am talking about meager, simple discussions such as these.

For those who try to reason, there is logic. For those who follow God, there seems to be no reason. There is only God. There is no argument, nor hypocrisy, nor enlightenment. There is only the word of God, an incomprehensible being, as interpreted by man. There is only entitlement.

In this point, I, as the Devil’s advocate, and others, as the followers of God, each have an advantage. They all take solace in knowing that their word of God is truth, and I take comfort in realizing the futility of everything I’ve written, and expecting little to come from it.

To fairly acknowledge other sides of this issues, the statement,

[sic] was made as well, and is no less guilty of such entitled behavior. Instead of God, replace all I’ve said above with Science.
It’s odd how my attempt at clarification took nearly as long as my original point, huh? Oh well.

Religion: Book 2 of 2.
 

I’ve found, through a great deal of introspection, that faith is a powerful word that carries with it a great deal of meaning and emotion, whether we all realize such or not. It is the singular word that embraces the core tenets of our lives, and as such, it is oft not spoken lightly. After all, who here wants their existence devalued, or worse, dehumanized, by having that faith misappropriated, misinterpreted, or misunderstood? It is a very personal matter that, to the best of my exploration, cannot be easily explained through words, or actions, or their eventual combination.

It is after a great deal of introspection, and after having been raised Roman Catholic that I have decided to place my faith in humanity.

The single thing that has frightened me most about my decision, and about the value of humanity as it now exists, has been the use of religion of all denominations as a tool of manipulation, power, and oppression. Again, that’s not to suggest that, on the whole, religion is without value, but that I am deeply concerned with how it has been used by the masses, the strong, and the powerful, to subjugate and diminish to contribution and potential of all else.

In the name of god, wars have been waged; genocide committed, and horrible acts justified. In the shame of the past, and in the heat of the moment, history is shrouded beneath a veil of cultural near-sightedness and religious fervor. Like government, religion participates in campaigns of disinformation designed, meticulously so, aimed at increasing their influence, power, and reach. Again, while not wholly true of all religious believers, religion and fear of god has been the tool that allows man to make attempts at elevating himself above all others.

It is not in the power of God that I hold doubt, nor in the logic of Science. But, rather, it is within the world of Man that I have both placed and lost my faith.

It is how, irrespective of empirical study, historical scripture, or bona-fide miracles, individuals have manipulated the idea of God in the interest of their own pursuits that shocks me more than anything else I’ve ever known. How Man has corrupted the pure image of a benevolent god in the name of ratings, crass commercialism, and the tyranny of the masses.

The propagandized, fear tactics used by some individuals in the name of religion, such as this flyer (graphic and disturbing) sent to high school children in Kansas, or the Westboro Baptist Church (, in its entirety, are exemplar uses of religion as a tool of power over others that I have seen personally. It is not the place of any man, no matter how pious they perceive themselves to be, to speak in the name of God, nor as God’s interpreter.

(…the homosexual agenda strikes again…)

Or, maybe, it just makes sense. Maybe not.

The examples are numerous, while the point is the same.

In the end, I live each day with the true intent of making the world a better place. Some days, I do better than others, but it is among my moral convictions that I should never place myself above any other, nor allow myself to be dominated by the popular culture.

I have nothing but admiration for those who can unquestioningly place their faith, love, and life in the hands of a superior being. I envy the strength and conviction they each possess in understanding the supremacy of a supernatural being, and in holding steadfastly and true to their teaching. I hope that, someday, I might feel so intensely about someone or something that I may, with all of my passion, devote myself to that cause. The knowledge and conviction of being right, righteous, and content, must be powerful.

Given my life experiences, I’m hesitant to find truth or comfort in religion, both because of its history as well as its potential. It is a power much too great for me to wield.

“Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Religion is corrupt. (Thanks for the seed, there, Jim.)

Instead, I’ll live my life as I have, doing my best to brighten people’s day, help them through their troubles, and maybe impart a bit of wisdom about how to do the same to others. If there is a god that should choose to punish me because of the clothes I wear, the way I speak, or because I don’t attend church each Sunday and praise, there’s nothing I can do about it. I’ll be the first to admit, I screwed up.

If, however, there’s some guy who is so presumptuous as to assume he knows the word of God, and he tells me that I’m going to Hell because of who I am, where I come from, or what I’m doing, he can respectfully eat my shorts.

MMMMmmmmMMMMmmmm..... shorts.

reply to mbiddy
 

Why? Do you think everyone in America should learn hebrew and latin? And what of the people in France, is it wrong to have a French edition?

How 'bout this: God was with the angels he created, he created them in his image and us too.

How 'bout this: God gave us all FREE WILL. He did this because he loves us, and if we didn't have free will then we would be nothing more than the robots we create for FIRST (in a way). As long as we can choose what we do, then some are going to choose evil. Let's face it, sometimes evil is enticing, it lures you into it, so people turn to it.

I hope I've worded the above not to offend anyone or to assume that they believe what I wrote. I'm just providing an interpretation to the bible, not trying to tell you that it happened that way.

Stephen

dang Michael, are you tired?

Yeah, i should say that all that stuff is MY personal belief and as such probably shouldn't have been used to counter an argument...

But, in my opinion, the bible should not all be taken literally, such as the story of Noah. I follow the bible, but not to the letter.
I think the stories in it demonstrate a general Idea and basically should be taken the same way a fairy tale should be, find the moral of the story.

I feel church denominations come second before your own personal beliefs but I also think that they provide a good community in today's society. While organized religion may have caused wars in the past and still causes problems today, I feel that it has been more positive than negative.

Religion isn't something as important to me as it was in the past...I was raised and baptized a southern bapist since I was young but I changed my mind about religion once I went into 8th grade...

Right now I have my own set of beliefs that mostly leans towards paganism with some other elements mixed in; however, when I tell people this they figure I worship the devil or something and am into evil things, which is not true. If people took the time to learn about one anothers religions, sterotypes like these wouldn't exist and I wouldn't be judged as something I am not.

Don't judge someone from their religion please. People generally aren't the generalizations that people associated with that religion. Take time to learn about other religions, you'll discover more than you would think.

Reply to srawls
 

I'm not sure what you're saying, but I'm saying why did they make a version specifically for the country? Why isn't it just THE BIBLE, translated into different languages.

And why would God give us the same amount of free will if we would just go and abuse it? Or is humanity inherently sinful? No matter what he does he can't prevent us from becoming evil if we have free will. Oh wait, that can't be because God has infinite power and can make anything he wants. Then why is there still evil?

Well, British people speak English slightly different than American people do, as do Australian people speak English slightly different. Some people think the King James version is too hard to understand and want it translated into "Modern American English" so that is why they have the AMERICAN version. Personally, I think the more you translate the more the meaning is changed.

Also, either we have free will or we don't. If we were pre-programmed to love one another and do no evil, well, would it really be love? We'd be doing what we HAD to do not what we felt or wanted to do. I mean, there has to be dark to appreciate light, cold to appreciate warm, etc. etc.

I guess it depends what you believe in. According to the bible, yes, humanity is inherently sinful. The bible says that if we recognize our sin, ask for forgiveness, and follow God's word, then our sins will be forgiven and forgotten.

Stephen

The reason they specifically have the 'New American Bible' is due to a couple of reasons. One of them is that the King James Bible was seen as being too hard. Another one is that many people considered the King James Bible to have too many mistakes and new documents also showed that it was incomplete. So they made a council to revise the bible ( the old and the new testaments) using every document they could find and the new 'American' version was released just for America in the 1950s.

If you are wondering how i know this it is because i had to read a couple of books of the bibile for my AP English class.

check this out
 

www.losingmyreligion.com
some cool arguments
after reading this (forums and other stuff on the net) i have decided to believe in a hybird religion for now, but decided that maybe later, ill go back to hinduism or something else. loving this thread tho. Im also glad that everyone is being respectful of each other. Keep on discussing
shrey

Re: Why so many bible versions
 

The purpose of any translation is to put a book in the language of a target audience. When the language used by the audience changes over the course of 300 years (or 100 or 50) it becomes necessary to update the translation (or retranslate anew.)

One of my favorite quotes is from Greg Koukl (Sundays 3-5 pm, KBRT 740 AM, Southern California and http://www.str.org:)) He says he only uses the King James Version when he is speaking to 300 year old English speakers.;)

Re: Religion: Book 2 of 2.
 

No problem, whatsoever... Glad I could help, in fact...

:)

Melissa - I too am from a somewhat paganistic religious belief. I found it hard at first too... I mean, who wouldn't find it hard when no one really understands a religion after hundreds (probably more) of years of oppression and being misunderstood. It all stems from other religions. The pagan religions were the "old ways", some of the first religions in fact were Goddess worshipping. However, when the other religions came along, they were threatened by the hold the old ways had on people, so.. the "new" religions decided to find a way to turn people away, saying that they were worshipping the devil, or what have you. Eventually the "new" ways became the majority, the "old" ways were outcast and as time progressed, we were given the witch trials. Now wasnt that a fun history lesson?

Anywayz, from all that, don't you find it sad that old prejudices are carried into new times? I for one really know it bothers me when people use my religious beliefs to constantly insult me, thinking that it's an insult. Well, it's one of those things where I think back to this one poem I read, "I am a witch with pride say I, for a witch's soul doth never die" anywayz, when someone tries to use my religion against me, it's not an insult.

As for "devil worshipping" oh I know too well how people have associated that with my beliefs. I happen to know a fair bit about magick and the like and so I've found myself to be approached by a few girls in my school interested in it. Now, another thing, I'm very open about my beliefs, after a few years of secrecy, I found it to be a little wrong. Why should anyone have to hide their beliefs? It's absurd! So, as a result, towards the end of the school year, I was called down to guidance. There I had a lovely conversation about religious beliefs with my guidance counsellor. She had it in her mind that i was running a devil worshipping cult.. when really all I had been doing was trading spells and educating friends. I had to prove to her that my beliefs were not that of a cult, and therefore not that of a religion in a way.

The other thing I said, was one thing that may prove useful to you Melissa in your defense.. Pagans don't believe in the devil in the first place!!!!! The Wiccan religion atleast, and that of druids I think, Don't put a place for a devil. "The Goddess is both, because nature is both, loving and cruel." or something like that, it was in a movie a long time ago. Basically, the Goddess consists of the Maiden, Matron(mother) and Crone. There is also the forth part of the Goddess, never really named or spoken about, basically, choas. Pagans don't believe in the devil, because they see evil as a part of their Goddess, they don't see it as a foul being trying to tempt us.. but as a part of life, that we experience and then pay for karmicly.. basically. So there's a lil something to get people to stop that one.. "How can I worship the devil, if I don't believe there is a devil in the first place?"-me

Alright, there's some more pennies to add to my jar..
*hugz to all as alwayz*
Ann-Marie -team 783
Note: Really hoping I haven't offended anyone... I'm trying sooo hard not to.

Hmmm.. Is there a god? No one can really answer that. Though I do believe in reincarnation and the afterlife because of such a odd event that happened in my life. I had to choose a confirmation name for my confirmation. I thought and thought and came up with Alfred Nobel the scientist. Well after a while I got confirmed I went to the history channel website and did one of those this day in history and guess who's name was there Nobel's. It creeped me out.

If you want to get in the Bible debate, I actually took classes and learned hebrew so I could read and translate things for myself in the "most raw" form I could. call me crazy... in my younger years I was a hardcore superchristian, then I grew up and learned to think for myself (much to the displeasure of my "parents") If your looking for a good read Mere Christianity or the Screwtape Letters (both by CS Lewis) are quite enjoyable. Through all my searching and thought ect ect its all come down to this

a) what are you passionate about
b) who knows your passionate about it
and c) who else needs to know

sure you can create your own little religion, but being able to share your religion and have people to turn to when you need them is an ultimate situation

I know most of what ive said dosnt make sense, if you want to hear the full version you know how to contact me.

Just wanted to add...
I haven't read Mere Christianity, but I've read The Screwtape Letters and it is excellent. CS Lewis is one of my favorite writers.

- Katie

Everyone should read Cain by James Byron Huggins. It's about a CIA agent who dies and is made into a super soldier whose body is possessed by a demon. Is it the coolest book I have ever read.

Well lets see. I am catholic...but i don't go to church. I know that in the catholic religion that is so bad. But I don't think that a person needs to be in church to talk to God. As catholics...and christians we are taught that God is everywhere, and we can talk to him whenever. So I don't really believe you have to go to church in order to be a good person, because i know many people that sit in church ever sunday who are not so nice. Personally I turn to my religion more when something bad happens. Recently my grandma passed away, and the only way i could deal with it is through my religion. Realizing that my grandma is in heaven with all the other people that she knew that died before her is a comforting thought. It makes me realize that she is happier up there because she is free from pain. So I guess basically I don't always agree with everything about my religion...but it is nice to know it is always there when i need it. I do not like it when other people try and push their religion on you, and I would never try and push my religion on anyone.

Katelyn

Finally, someone who shares my views. That's exactly what I was saying... you don't need to go to church every sunday to have faith. I have faith, and I don't go every sunday.

What if Satan is really the all powerful god entity and the good God is like the Oskar Schindler of the netherrealm? Saving people from burning by taking them aside.

whew... this is probably a very bad idea... polotics, religion and abortion are usually my no-no's of conversation. oh well, time to open mouth and insert foot...


i believe i read the same story as you. it said that some activities heighten activity in a certain area the brain. i think they used intense sessions of meditaion as the example for the monks, not everyday prayer. this pattern of brain activity was also found in professional athletes (often called being "in the zone"), tournament chess players, and people who play video games for extended periods of time.

now for a little of my spiritual background. i am italian and irish, so no surprise that i was raised catholic. however, my father also raised me to be very cynical. yeah, i know, i have issues.

i first started questioning my religion when i was still in elementary school. i would ask my sunday school teachers questions, and they would have no answers for me. i was little, so my questions were simple ones. "if noah's family was the only one to survive the flood, does that mean we're all related?" as i got older, i had more questions, most of which remained unanswered. but as my doubt grew, i still went through the motions. i didn't dare voice my doubts to family members... my grandparents and aunts and uncles would have been heartbroken. so i was confirmed. (incidentally, i was confirmed by one of those bishops who got in trouble for diddling little boys... small world, eh?)

so anyway... i dabbled with being an agnostic for a while, 'til i realized that it was indecision that got me into this mess in the first place. so i'm an atheist. i'm pretty sure i'll become worm food when i die. i try to live my life making myself as happy as possible while not screwing up anyone else's happiness in the process. i realize that my actions all have consequences, and i try to weigh them accordingly when i make decisions.

all that being said, i still want my children (but first there's that ever tedious task of finding someone to have children with... *sigh*... but that's for another post) to be raised with some sort of religion. i really like the value system that religions on a whole posess. i also would encourage them, when they were older, to learn more about all religions and see if there's a better one for them then the one i and my hypothetical wife chose for them.

on a totally separate note, in the course of writing this novella, i stumbled across an idea... the notions of fear, respect, and love are very much related.

--we fear because of what someone has done to us. we respect because we know they could do it again. we love because we know they won't.

think about it for a sec... it's really quite profound...... this could apply to a god, a parent, a significant other...

well, if you've managed to read this whole thing, i thank you. i really didn't mean for it to get this long, but it is a sensitive subject, and i really wanted to make sure i got my view across clearly. this is the point where some people might apologize if they offended anyone. well i won't. if i have offended you, then that means you took notice, and that's a good thing as far as i'm concerned. in debates like these, you can't hope to change anyone's mind, you can only hope to get someone to notice something they hadn't noticed before.

please excuse any spelling or gramatical errors i missed in proofreading... i'm no english major =-]

George
S.P.A.M.
Team 180

a quick afterthought...

lets suppose i am wrong and there is a god and a heaven... who's to say i wouldn't be there in the end? if i lead a good life, i shouldn't have anything to worry about. does this omnipotent being really care htat i didn't spend every sunday of my life in a building half asleep comparing my best clothes with everyone else's?


/me drops another $.02 in the bucket on his way out

George
S.P.A.M.
Team 180

George.... WOW! Your story is exactly like mine, and I couldn't pick better words to say it with.

I'm an aethiest, but I believe everyone's view on religon is personal and their business. I welcome the occasional philosophical debate with the open minded of the religous community, but I've had so many conversations turn ugly just because people discover I am an aethiest (a teacher once called me a "demon child" after she asked what church I attended) so I think its wisest to avoid the whole subject.

This is largely the reason why I haven't been active in this thread...