What will separate the good from the great?
 

Hello Chief Delphi,

What do you all think will separate the "good teams" from the "great teams" once the game starts being played at a high level?(regional championships/worlds). I'm predicting that that by regionals and worlds, the defenses will be breached every match, and the tower will be captured most matches. So if every alliance can do that, what will set the winners above?

Last year, it was the recycling containers. Whoever got the most would win, because it was a given that each alliance could make enough 6 stacks that could be capped. This year, if it is a given that every alliance will breach and capture, here's what I think will set the winners apart.

1. Whoever scores the most in auto.

2. Whoever can scale

3. Whoever shoots high goals more reliably.

What do you think?

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Prior to the DCMPs and the CMP I don't think scaling or shooting will make much of a difference. However, once you get to the elimination rounds at those events I think those extra points will start to win matches.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

In terms of shooting, I would say ball control and the robot's ability to deal with shot blocking robots and defense.

In terms of crossing the defenses, I would say how quickly and reliably the teams can cross them.

As always, robot durability and reliability are also factors.

Depending on how the robots fit around the tower, you could miss out on 10 incremental points if a robot can't scale

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I think that the alliance that will shoot more balls into the high goal will win the match, my guess is that at least 2 robots per alliance in high lvl will be able to scale the tower, so the defender bot will have huge impact on the game when we reach the worlds. auto is very important too, my guess about 50 points per alliance in auto when we reach the eliminations in worlds, if an alliance will fail auto they will loose the game.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I think a 36 30-point auto is a given for playoffs (three robots crossing). At the better regionals and region championships, it'll either be high goal or scale. By Einstein (and probably MSC), I'm pretty much expecting "and".

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Pretty sure that's only 30 points. You don't get reach points for crossing.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Yeah, it's only 30 points, per page 31 of the game manual

Once a ROBOT CROSSES a DEFENSE in AUTO, any additional DEFENSES that ROBOT REACHES or CROSSES during the AUTO period will not decrease DEFENSE STRENGTH nor contribute points to the ALLIANCE.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I think consistent high goal shooting and consistent scaling will be what puts higher level teams ahead. High goal shooting would include getting more shots in than the 8 needed to weaken the tower.

Also, contrary to what seems to be a common thought on CD, I think a high level defender bot is possible, as this year requires an increased amount of defensive strategy and skill as far as I can tell.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Robots either reach or cross in autonomous. One robot cannot receive both reach and cross points in the same autonomous period.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I read "additional" as "successive", but that's my uncaffeinated mind at work. :) The meat of the answer remains--three crossed defenses in playoffs is a given, in my book.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Excellent intakes, scoring a boulder in auto and obtaining a second boulder even if it is held on to to be scored in telly, being able to score both high and low, never taking more than 2 seconds to cross their preferred obstacle, and finally being able to add a climber in time for elims.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Most of the good robots will be able to perform all of the functions of the game. What will separate the good from the great will be the ability to shave seconds off of cycle times and work together with alliance partners to maximize efficiency. In effect " scouting, planning and execution".

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I'm inclined to think my shorthand will be the robots that can cross a defense (other than the low bar) and then score in autonomous. In order to do that, it means they have a robot that can quickly and accurately cross a defense (while holding a ball) without getting stuck, can acquire a target, and can accurately score in a goal.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Normally I follow the "Jack of all trades master of none" mentality but this year with robots needing to be all over the place I think the more a robot can do well outweighs a robot who can do one thing super well. This game can be played very re-actively which I enjoy a lot.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Agreed. That said there are different ways to accomplish said tasks which will be interesting to see. Especially with number 3. Feeder robots vs pure shooters will be an interesting game dynamic.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Same thing that always does: consistency. A good team could put up 2 stacks last year in a match. A great team could put up 2 stacks in EVERY match.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Yes!

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Speed... Like it does every year. A good team is consistency, a great team is consistency AND FAST.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Good coaching and well practiced drive teams.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

A great team could put up at least THREE stacks in every match like clockwork. (Some put up more.)

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Being consistent first allows you to figure out how to become fast much easier than if you are not consistent.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Was going to say exactly the same thing. The separation between the good and the great is just about always consistency and, after that, speed. With all the options this year, your precise strategy isn't nearly as important as your ability to execute it consistently and effectively.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

There's only one way to score unlimited points: Boulder scoring (High Goal especially). There's where the best teams will be winning. At the highest level of play, you have to assume that you need to outscore your opponents with boulders in order to win, since full breaches and capturing(scaling?) will be happening every match in elims at good events. If you outscore your opponents with autonomous or capturing, then you have to score fewer boulders to win, or vice versa, you need to score even more boulders to win if your opponents have the edge in auto and capturing.

tldr; you MUST score more points in boulders to win at the higher levels of play. This comes from an alliance that is quicker, more consistent, or able to shut out opponents' scoring with defense.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

/s/2/3

The number doesn't really matter. Do something once or twice and you're good. Do something every time and you're great. I picked a number tbh.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I'm curious at what level of play the bonus RP from a successful breach goes from 'gets you ahead of the pack' to 'if you don't have this every match you can't seed top 8' - That's my prediction for District Champs.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I think this gets at one of the most important strategic concepts in this game: breach points are a simpler, easier, and more efficient way of scoring points, but they are capped every match. Boulder points are harder - they involve cycles, defense, accuracy, etc. - but they are unlimited. So, to be effective, you need to always take advantage of the easy points by breaching quickly, but you also need to be ready for when the easy points are gone and shooting is necessary.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

It's like 2013 between shooting and climbing. With climbing there was a 50 point cap. With shooting it was unlimited (for most teams).

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I think that good low bots will be able to breach 2-3 defenses and then feed a shooter or score low goals, and a great low bot will be able to breach 4-5 defenses quickly while single-handedly weakening the tower.

A good high bot/shooter specialist will hit >50% of their shots at the same rate that they are fed balls by a low bot, and a great high bot/shooter specialist will hit 80-90% of their shots, and still have time to roam the courtyard and harrass the opponent's defender, maybe even stealing a ball or two from the Secret Passage.

However, I would agree that consistency is one thing that makes a robot great. A robot that can do something amazing twice out of ten is arguably less useful to an alliance than a robot that can do something easy every single time.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

There will be a handful of robots this year, I'd say no more than perhaps 10 or 15, that will be able to accurately score the ball from 'long range'. This is the most difficult shooting game the GDC has ever given us. I may even be over-estimating that number. Those will be the elite.

The only variable in this game will come down to tower scoring. Einstein will come down to tower scoring. Both sides will breach, both sides will get full or near full auto points. The only differentiating factor will be the number of balls you can put in that tower. In fact, a defender that is max height and does a good job might very well decide the outcome by slowing the tower scoring of one of the teams.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Tom,
is the 'long range' you are referring to from the 'safe zone' after you traverse one of the barriers?
If so, then I would think it would be a lot more considering no legal defense.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I look at it this way. In 2012 there were very few robots that would consistently score a basket every time they fired. That was acceptable, however, because you had 3 balls to shoot. This year, instead of having 3 balls, you get one chance. The target is much smaller proportionally than the 2012 hoop.

Statistically, I believe that for most teams it will be more efficient to shoot up close and make a higher percentage of their shots. But that can be defended and will be much slower than shooting from just inside the works.

I think the exceptions to that rule will be few elite robots that can consistently hit 90% of their shots from the protected area.

Perhaps you're having more luck shooting accurately than we are :D

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I have a feeling that when it comes to final championship matches, we will see a lot of 2 ball autos from the winning alliances. But it's only going to be a small amount of teams that will execute it well, or even attempt it, but that's the one of the things that will make a big difference. If not that, the alliances can still score as many boulders as they can, so a fast, accurate shooter will be important too.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

It depends. Assuming you have a system that is capable of doing the required task. Consistency comes from a well developed driving technique and/or code, that are supported by the correct senors. Speed is limited by the mechanical design and gearing of the robot.

There will be many bots that can shoot 8 boulders in the high goal this year without missing, but most won't be able to do it in the time limit.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I think the cycle time for shooting is most important and to shoot the most bolders the quickest you have to also be able to cross defences reliably and move and intake balls reliebly.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Match Strategy and Driver Practice will trump all in my opinion.

If you look at the questions purely in the statistical sense "great" robots might have higher shooting percentages, cross defenses very quickly ETC.

However, I define the great teams as the ones that win regionals/districts. In this sense, the pure stats don't matter. All that matters is wins. I believe teams that win the most will be the ones with the most practiced drive teams and the best match strategy each and every match even if their robot is statistically "worse" than other robots.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I suspect that OPR will be an even better metric this year than it has been with some others. OPR is based on your alliance scores, not just your own individual performance.

Great robots will do a lot on their own. Great teams will not only get the most out of their own robot, but they will also be able to plan, sell, and implement an effective match strategy that gets their various partners to produce efficiently and function as true alliance. They will have effective scouting that gets the needed information to the right people in a timely fashion. They will have a pit crew that keeps the robot functional and makes sure the alliance partners are operable. They will be able to maintain a sense of order in the chaos of the match.

I think that what will separate the "good" from the "great" is the team behind the robot.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I agree, that drive team experience and match strategy are extremely important this year. Even if you've got a robot that could hit all it's high goal shots, it will lose every match against a robot with a drive team that is well prepared and has a solid strategy.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Breacher Bots:
A good bot will be able to create a breach on its own, every match.

A great bot will be able to create a breach on its own every match, even if an alliance partner gets stuck in one of the defenses. Plus, as it is breaching, it will be able to grab boulders from the neutral zone and put them into the tower.


Shooting specialists:
A good bot will be able to make 4-5 complete cycles, scoring nearly all the boulders in the tower.

A great bot will be able make 6-8 complete cycles, scoring nearly all the boulders in the high goal.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

This... +10

There seems to always be too much emphasis on the robot's capabilities when it is really the capability of the team/alliance that scores points and win matches.

An efficient pit that keeps the mechanical/electrical/power requirements for a robot fulfilled is vital this year because the robots are going to take a good deal of contact both from other robots and the defenses.

A good strategy for the alliance, developed before you get to the field and supplemented by scouting knowledge of both the opposing alliance and your partners.

Practice with the robot, keeping in mind the contingencies that might be faced on the field. Planning for different strategies.

A team has to know its limitations and make a plan to optimize what it can do for an alliance.


This is what separates good from great.... IMO

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

Bob, Ditto.:]

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

That's the quote of the day. A simple, reliable robot with an experienced drive team is golden. We've done the opposite and it's not fun.

Re: What will separate the good from the great?
 

I agree with Drakxii - speed wins.
Top alliances will have their 2 RPs* with 60 seconds remaining in the match.

*Of course I realize the RP that comes with challenging isn't realized until the end of the match.