Re: Mentor Roles
 

Sounds like a tough situation, although I've sort of been there in the earlier years. After a while at this, I've figured out that the reason that I keep coming back year after year is that I really enjoy the engineering process, and working with a team of students to design and build a robot in 6 weeks is about the most fun an engineer can have. And I let the students know that being part of the team, them letting me do stuff, is what keeps me coming back. I don't have any interest in sitting around watching other people do stuff.

As suggested, you all need to sit down and talk about your roles on the team, and the status of your engineering project (the robot). There are two weeks left, and a few teams have already demonstrated that you can build a robot in three days....but it takes a cooperative effort by everyone on the team. Let them know that you want the team to succeed, and you're concerned that if things keep going as they are, that won't happen.

Mentoring is a tough game.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

As many others have said, every team has a different culture. I have found that the best teams have a commonality, that their is a feeling of partnership in the process. My first question would be how many other mentors are there and what are their views of how things are going? If this is a school based team, talking to the teacher in charge (for some, the teachers are mentors, for some teams the teacher really acts more as a business manager and HR director but isn't as involved in the robot building, for some the teacher is the person they have to have around to have a team in the school) is also a good idea. Ultimately if you want to be successful as a team the team has to develop a good working culture in which people know and are willing to accept their roles. Some of our mentors do more and teach less, some teach more and do less. We try to let the students learn how to do everything we do, but we all pitch in when things need to get done.

I would not put too much stock in what one stressed out student says. Everyone involved is part of the team. I have been doing FRC since 2000 and with team 1014 since we started in 2003. I also coach track and cross country. That experience comes in handy a lot more than you might think. Building a good track team and building a good robotics team share a lot of similarities.

If you want more specific suggestions feel free to send me a PM.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

I will just chime in to say that sometimes students and mentors have different pictures to look at.

For some students all that matters is the years in which they are students whatever happens before or after doesn't matter to them. For mentors, its about improving on past success and continually growing for many years to come. These pictures sometimes will not match or work well together.

I treat mentoring as though I'm a coach (I come from a sports background lol). As a coach I can lead students only as far as they are willing to be lead.

I will do everything I can to teach them to find their own flaws and I consistently ask them whether their approach is correct (regardless if its the "right" answer or the "wrong" answer) to stimulate their thought process and their ability to see their own mistakes.

BUT, there will ALWAYS be a point where tunnel vision takes over and they will choose a "wrong" direction. After that happens I no longer treat the option as "wrong" and will do everything in my power to make there choice succeed.

This way they see that I'm not trying to over power them but if their choice fails dispute our efforts to make it work, they will remember that there was other options available to them that maybe they should of listened to. And should they succeed, then everyone learned something that we previously thought wouldn't work, and we grow from either result.

Example: Say your team wishes to do a Holonomic Drive this year. Most people here would say that was not the right choice of drive, and when you discuss this with the students have them lay out the pros and cons with some assistance from you. When they decide to still choose this drive after you do your best to show the flaws in the choice, Your job becomes trying to make their choice work. Maybe you have to double up on wheels to make sure things don't break as easily. Something. Should it work, your almost guaranteed to have some fame from other teams, students will be thrilled etc etc. Should it fail, the students learn first hand why that process doesn't work the way they thought.

Either way you helped them through the whole process and they will appreciate you.

Just my (long) 2 cents :)

Re: Mentor Roles
 

One thing I haven't seen addressed is the definition of success and failure. Depending on the team, these can have hugely different definitions. Simbotics wouldn't produce a basic kitbot with no manipulators and call it a success. But rookie teams (including teams that, while not rookies, might as well be due to turnover or other issues) would.

As an LRI at competition, I define success as getting every team in the field with something that moves. It doesn't have to be pretty, it doesn't have to be able to manipulate game pieces overly well, but it needs to get out there and move. Just moving on the field is enough to let your team contribute to the alliance - herding balls, helping with defenses, playing defense against the other alliance... These are all things that can be done with a basic kitbot with no additions. And that robot can be put together in a day - I've seen it happen before practice day at competition, believe it or not.

So yes, you may be behind schedule. Yes, you may not get your manipulator done and yes, you may not play the game as effectively as you want. But if you have faith, work with your students, and show up to competition with something that at least drives you will make it to the field to compete.. It may not be what you consider a success,. But it may help inspire the kids for next season, or inspire some changes in the team structure. Trust me, I've been there. My team did not have what we consider a successful season last year. Our robot did not perform well at all, not nearly up to our standards. But it has inspired the entire team for this year, and things are looking very different right now than they died at this same point last year.

I recommend sitting down with the students and asking them to come up with a priority list. What do they want to get done? What do they want their ROBOT to look like? What is the most important part of the robot that absolutely HAS to be finished?. Do that and you can ensure that your robot can at least move and do SOMETHING at cocompetition, even if it doesn't do EVERYTHING the team wants it to do.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Thanks for these quotes! "Mentor-based" is in our team's mission statement, I just couldn't figure out where it came from... :rolleyes:

-Mike

Re: Mentor Roles
 

There are lots of different thoughts here and, as several have said, all teams are a little different and you'll (with other mentors?) have to figure out the path for your team....

Our team approaches things like this: The mentors will makes sure that a functional robot gets built - not necessarily a good robot or a competitive robot, but something that rolls around the floor and "tries" to help. They will also offer ideas, coaching, etc. that will give the kids the opportunity to go much further. If the kids have a really difficult concept they wish to pursue and are willing to put forth the effort to do so, the mentors will help them to get there, but the effort must be driven by the students.

Do you let the kids fail? It depends. Sometimes kids fail because they lack the know-how or skills to accomplish something. If this is the case and they are trying hard, then no: make sure they find success. This doesn't need to be a winning robot, but it should be something that allows the to enjoy playing the game. Ideally, if kids are working hard and find themselves not building the glorious robot they envisioned because they lack the engineering abilities to do so, they will be inspired to acquire those skills so that they might realize that goal the following year.

However, if the kid are failing due to apathy, lack of motivation, other priorities, etc., you might need to let them fail. However, don't make it easy for them. Have meetings with the leadership (or whole team, depending on the team's structures), and let them know that you are concerned. Offer guidance and support. Kindly make sure they understand the consequences of they choices they are making, etc. Give them multiple opportunities to self-correct. However, if at the end of the day, they just refuse to build the robot, they need to fail. I very much disagree with the idea that kids should be permitted to knowingly make poor choices and still be led to a reward.

Of course, sometimes kids are failing because they don't trust their mentors' sage advice, suggesting a disconnect. If this is the case, the primary goal of the mentors must be to re-establish the student-mentor relationship. The students might, for instance, choose a design that has no chance of success in the eyes of professional engineers.... However, being teenagers, they don't recognize that the professionals might know more than they do and insist on moving forward with their design. On our team, we approach such a situation like this: As mentors, we agree to support their misguided attempts and do whatever we can to help them to be successful in their pursuit of said failing principle. However, at the same time, we insist that they, with mentor guidance, also pursue a back-up plan that will succeed. Simply put: Sometimes kids need to be confronted with their own lack of expertise before they are willing to trust those who are veritable experts.

I wish you well. It is always tough on an entire team when leadership dynamics are not working well. And, yes, mentors are necessarily a part of the leadership of a team.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Try setting up a timeline with deadlines and encourage the students to meet those deadlines. This can be a useful skill for them to learn as well as keeping them on track so that they will have a finished robot at the end of the build season.

You can try to explain to them why you think that they might fail. No, building the robot for them is not your role, you should be working alongside one another. The purpose of a mentor is to teach the students how to do something, not to do that something for them. However just stepping back and allowing them to fail without providing guidance is also not the right approach either in my opinion, whether or not they choose to follow your advice is up to them.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Welcome to being a mentor. I will likely be the hardest fun you will ever have.

Mentors are definitely part of the program. As others have said, it is part of the core values.

Mentors being part of the team will ultimately be your Team's decision. I personally will not be a mentor on a team that will not let me be "part" of the team.

As a new mentor, I will caution you that there are a lot of similarities, but a lot of differences between FIRST teams and "high tech projects". the first season you help out can be overwhelming and I suggest you try not to be too pushy as you do not know the background. This can be hard, especially for someone with your large amount of experience. Hopefully a personal anecdote might help.
************************************************** *******
For example, I have worked with a few teams in the past. In 2009, I was introduced to a rookie school 3 weeks into build season, and we did not skip any steps, but built a minimally competitive robot (MCC) (it drove around and did positive actions, and even ended up backing its way into an event win that year). I also had about a decade working with a very successful team, and then last year started helping a different successful team.

Even though I had 10 years of FIRST experience (and 15 years of industry experience), I was new to that team. At one point I thought they were irreversibly behind, but they were following their process and ended up with a pretty successful season (a 2nd and 2 first place district finishes along with decent showing at MSC and Worlds (played in elims at both).

They were behind "my expectations" of where they should be, but they were meeting their standards, and ultimately produced pretty good results.

I will not work with a team that won't let me be part of the team. As others have said, that is part of my fun, and my "pay". We are all teammates, as you said in your post, some of us have different roles.

I also will not work with a team that is content with failure. Failure is a perfectly fin thing to have happen, I just push for it to occur early and in the development process, and want them to do their best to mitigate failure during competition.

Your team is young enough that it is likely still getting its culture. Work with them on that. Even on established team with agreement of student mentor involvement, you will have an occasional student that thinks mentors should do nothing. It happens. Try to help them understand the program and if you can point to team values. If your team doesn't have that, point to FIRST values of a mentor based program.

another phrase I like:

We all volunteer to be a part of this team. I work with the students, not for them, nor do they work for me.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

There's frequently a lot of conversation on student-built vs mentor-built. I used to have much stronger opinions on that, then I came sort of to what I would consider "middle of the road", but in the last couple of years I've come to conclusion that's the wrong way to think of the problem.

My focus is on student accountability. If the students feel accountable for the robot and success of the team - then I don't care how involved or uninvolved the mentors are.

A student-led (mentors there just to make sure students don't lose any fingers) team is no good if the students don't feel accountable and don't feel some pressure to make the team succeed. In other words, they students are just there having "fun" and learning - which maybe they still have fun regardless of the amount of success! That's good - but there are much cheaper, less stressful ways of doing that. Too many people put too much money and time in for a team to not be actively working towards a team that can compete (whether that competition is focused on a robot on the field, or the impact they're having on the community).

Alternatively, a mentor-led team (even one where students are actively involved and learning) is no good either (in my opinion) if the students don't feel accountable for the robot and the team. In other words, if they view the mentors as a safety net and rely on mentors to produce award winning concepts/prototypes/ideas. If a team wins (whether an award or just general success on the field), but the students don't feel ownership over it - then I think a big part of FIRST is missing. Even if the students are inspired and excited about being a part of a winning team.

If students are working hard - I'm working hard along side with them. If students are not working hard - I'm working hard to figure out why they aren't and what needs to change.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

I would love to have a anthropologist study this situation. I think students go primal and do much of what they do out of instinct because the feel the stress and pressure of a looming deadline. Time decay is everyone's worst enemy. Finding leadership and building a team bond are the most important things you can do right now. If everyone doesn't wake up and get on the same plan, <insert a sports analogy>.


Its hard to step back look at the scenario and then figure out the best way to triage it. I would approach it like you do at work, or in a 2 minute drill in football. First step, clean slate.
Step 1) Clean slate. Forget everything up to today.

Step 2) Do what you do best. Take a simple plan, a stupidly simple design. Run with it. Be disciplined, classify everything into a Day 1 feature or a Day 2 feature. You'll get to Day 2 after Day 1 is delivered.

Step 3) Deliver ASAP. This is the time where everyone digs deep and puts something out there.


When dealing with people that don't get on board with the initial plan,
I'd respond to a lot of questions similar to "I don't get it". They will point to something that they did already, and then I'll just say "I don't get it". Over time it works. But building team bond and trust, then getting everyone on the same page with simplicity is the first step to recovery.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

I know what you meant, but I still got a good laugh.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Hauki

Thank you for taking the time and effort to do what you do. Thanks also for caring enough to seek help for your team.

If the student really believes this when he/she calms down, that student is misguided, as many people posting here have said. That student should read section 1.2 of the Admin Manual.

Not all students are qualified to serve in leadership positions. Similarly, not all adults are qualified to serve in leadership positions.

I often cringe when I hear about "100% student led teams". In many of instances I have experienced, students who do not have the maturity or accountability are doing whatever comes to mind while spending other peoples money. I only hope that these students grow up to become responsible adults. Unfortunately, I know some of them won't because I see adults who act just as irresponsibly.

On the other hand, I have also worked with quite a few students (especially from 624) who have shown great ability to take responsibility and organize their efforts and the efforts of their team members to deliver outstanding results. These students definitely have earned the right to lead their teams.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Re: Getting off track?
Was the basic engineering design process used from the start of the season? Did the team come up with a list of priorities and rank them? Have they done that for each of the sub-teams? If so, then you can point to them back to those and remind them that they aren't working to what they said their priorities were.

If they didn't follow the basic engineering design process, it might be worth having a team meeting for 30 minutes (with the lead mentor/coach introducing you and what you want to do, including your background - this is critical so the team understands all of the mentors/coaches are on board with this) and have the students evaluate each of the various things going on and what is and isn't working, what is and isn't feasible, etc. Let the students come up with the answers. If there's something you see going on, guide them to that answer.

Re: Failure
"Failure is not an option" when human lives are at stake. There are no human lives at stake in this competition. We live in a society where nobody is allowed to make mistakes anymore. I say, let them make mistakes and fail. They will learn more from that than they will from having everything work out.

I can tell you of several robots I've worked on over the years, but one of the lessons I will never forget is because of a pneumatic piston that my professor and I couldn't get to rotate, regardless of what we did. The Monday after the competition, he came to the lab and said he spoke to his wife (a civil engineer) about it. She reminded him that we were trying to rotate the piston through the center line, rather than using something slightly off, like a crane uses. I probably didn't explain that clearly, but it's definitely something that I will remember because it was a failure, not a success.

Re: Mentor a part of team?
As others have said, the mentor is a part of the team. However, I was working with a team earlier this year that I was never introduced to and felt like I was only able to contribute to a few students because they were willing to accept the help. (I do miss those students and feel guilty when I think of them.) That was a team with several years under their belt and didn't want to change how they did things.

I am lucky in that the rookie team I am with now and I gel quite well.
Working with the rookie team was always planned, but I intended to keep working with the other team, as well.

In the end, I had to make a decision based on my emotional well-being, and it was accepted and understood by the mentors of the other team. (In fact, it was expected that I would end up only working with the rookie team.)

My point is, if your emotional well-being is compromised by the attitudes of this current team, please re-evaluate if it is the right team for you. As adults, we're often expected to "just deal with" things. The reality is, if you don't take care of yourself emotionally, things will get worse for you and the team.

Re: Other opportunities
If you find that this is not the right team, there are other ways to volunteer for this year at local regionals/competitions. Next year, you can try to work with a local rookie team. I find it is far easier to work with rookie teams than established teams because rookies need guidance and have not gotten "set in their ways".

I apologize for the length of this post, but I wanted to touch on a number of issues that I thought were important.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

My opinion on this matter probably doesn't matter as much because I am not an adult mentor, but here's what I've noticed now more than ever now that I'm no longer a student member of the team.

Mentors are there to hammer in a good work habit. They're there to support the students no matter what path they take. They're there to have the students show themselves the way, instead of just telling the students what to do.

Take for example this year's game. Let's say the students want to use direct drive cim motors and a winch to climb, and one very long pneumatic piston to launch the ball, and you as a mentor already know this will not work. Instead of saying "no that won't work try something else" or "that idea sucks please let's stick to feasible options", you would teach them the resources needed to show themselves why that it is not going to work. Essentially teach them what they need to know so they can show themselves that it won't work.


You aren't explicitly saying that it will not work, you are giving them the resources needed to have them prove to themselves that it won't work. You are also providing education so they can use it in the future. This is basically what FIRST is all about, IMHO.

And maybe that's not your problem. But my point is that mentors are there to keep students on task and to teach them. Like it has been said before, each team has a different culture, but fundamentally, to have a good student/mentor dynamic (imo, again everyone's team is different), the mentor needs to practice what is called "tough love" ;)

When I was a student on my team I honestly got quite annoyed sometimes at all the mentors. But now viewing it from an outside perspective I respect the mentors even more for being so hard on us and I truly believe if they weren't that hard we wouldn't have finished our robot on time.

I'm not saying beat them down with a bench grinder, but realize the difference between goofing off/being lazy and legitimately stressed out from working. Chances are if you practice "tough love" you'll see that the goofing off/laziness will soon turn into tiredness from hard work and I think that's a beautiful thing.

And I'm not saying it should be an everyday thing either. You're a mentor after all, not a dictator, but when the students need guidance give them guidance.

Just my $0.05 (to compensate for inflation).

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Lots of good discussion here, but I'll two points that I haven't seen yet:

1) Students on the team are by definition not yet adults. And in fact, they have not yet developed adult-level judgement. One of the roles for mentors is to be the adult in the room. Sometimes that means reminding students of the facts in the situation and potential consequences of their interpretation. It also means that mentors must make adult judgments on safety and the course of instruction.

2) Mentors generally represent the institutional memory of the team. No student is likely to be on a team longer than 4 years and probably less. If a mentor is not a member of the team, how is that institutional memory to be passed on. Students tend to underestimate the value of wisdom and experience (see (1) above!).

The bottom line is that I see the loss of a mentor from a team more consequential than the loss of a disgruntled student team member. Don't be afraid to assert your role and importance.